Challenge

[oy-]

Ok oy-, what is it??

You tryin' to pick another arguement?

Maybe you should start a new forum called,"Taking the Bible Literally."

No and no and wasn't trying to pick an arguement in the first place, was trying to get you to stop writing and others from writing "the bible says".

We seem to agree the bible doesn't "say" anything by your answer "Oh please!!! You know what I'm saying when I say that the Bible says!!!! Geeze!!! You don't have to take it so literal!!" though "so literal" leaves room for doubt.

So. I still believe you take "the bible says" literally, and I still believe you know you know you do. True or false ?

[4dplane]

Hi, I am 4dPlane and I am nothing turned agnostic. I was probably always agnostic but only learned the true meaning of the word a year ago and said I’m that – agnostic!

I just got done torturing myself by reading all 10 pages of this topic in one setting. Fun it was, but it leaves me with a restless mind and little time to sort it all out.

Many people I know that are doubts, or full blown disbelieves of all faiths, commonly say that even though they do not believe in these faiths they still respect the people that do. To me this is an ugly dark paradox that loops in my head. Let’s take the Christian faith for example and look at the idea of Revelations. The earth is to be destroyed and more people then not will very possible be burning in hell for ever, while only the elite few will be lifted up to heaven, escaping death entirely.

This concept is pure evil. It simple tells us that we are not capable of sustaining our existence without god, that one day it must and will come to an end. Why? When this was written it was not possible for man to execute Armageddon on himself. Meaning even if man wanted to end all life on earth he could not. Now in the nuclear era we have this ability to end it all…

Ok now I’m going to state that if Armageddon never happens for the rest of time then Christianity would be proven wrong, right! So let’s push for a world that wants to live on to the ends of time. Even if this is not possible we should be expected to strive on until the last day.

Christianity does not promote this life style. It points to an end that most Christians except. Thus they are not in the mind set of living on the plant/universe forever so they don’t treat the planet with long term living ideals. This affects me, my family, friend’s fellow agnostics, atheist and all others that are not the big “C”.

So is it really so easy to accept other belief systems if in the end these systems might kill you and everything else?

[Todd]

I appreciate the fact that you "tortured yourself" in order to catch up on this thread, as I've done and continue to do the same thing on other threads in order to get up-to-date. But I must disagree 4dplane with your thesis that Bible believers are detrimental to non-believers. Yes I am aware of the constant "They bother me with all of their 'eternity' talk" arguements, but if a non-believer could try to be objective for a moment they'd probably realize that the Bible believing person is actually trying to help them. That's a wild concept is'nt it? No conspiracies to warp the minds, or to get non-believers to "buy into" something that we must surely know is not right; if you think about it in those terms it might make you wonder WHY someone who KNOWS that they're delivering an unpopular message might continue to do so. Maybe, just maybe.....they believe that it's true.

As a Bible believing (As I believe I've established before I DO believe in biblical inerrancy, which should make it that much easier for a non-believer to help me out of my delusion, if that's what it is) Christian who indeed does feel that the world will one day end and that ALL will be judged, I live my life in much the same way that the typical non-believer might, with the exceptions that I keep an eye on eternity at all times (Or should at least; as previously well said by someone,we're all human) and I'm compelled to share an un-popular message with an (In many cases) ungrateful society. Do I try to speed up the destruction of the planet simply because I think that it's destruction is pre-ordained? Absolutetly not! This would be insanity! I think that it's FAR too sweeping of an accusation to say that Bible belivers in general or Christians in particular are living their lives in an earth destoying fashion because of our belief in The Bible.

One quick note to you aquatus, I am aware that parapsychology and e.s.p. are outside the boundaries of contemporary/modern science. I simply included that particular example for those in the "grey area" between our two extremes and also to show that "fudging the results" as a practice runs the gamit. I hope that you can now gain back whatever respect/admiration/good vibes that you had for me or my observation skills, that may have been placed in a precarios position due to my noting of the notorius Dr. Levy.

Well wishes and prayes to all.

[aquatus1]

One quick note to you aquatus, I am aware that parapsychology and e.s.p. are outside the boundaries of contemporary/modern science. I simply included that particular example for those in the "grey area" between our two extremes and also to show that "fudging the results" as a practice runs the gamit. I hope that you can now gain back whatever respect/admiration/good vibes that you had for me or my observation skills, that may have been placed in a precarios position due to my noting of the notorius Dr. Levy.

Whew! Seriously man, you knocked me for a loop with that one. I'm glad you cleared that up.

But then, it does need to be noted that the reason he was caught was because of the safeguards that have been put into place as part of science. If one does not follow the verification process, like when Dr. Levy attempted to publish without posting his complete set of results, that is a red flag that manipulation has occurred. The peer review board is made up of scientists, all with research experience, who know exactly what they should be seeing to back up any particular result, and when they have a question, you need to be ready to answer it.

[earthygirl04]

Ok, this is going to be my last post on this topic.This is all I have to say.....

I believe God exists. I also believe the Bible was inspired by God although a man had to put it down on paper. There are verses that are spiritually descerned (which means you don't take it literal. You have to search deep spiritually,pray and seek God for the answers of what that verse is all about. Just as it is written in Luke 24:45, Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures),( God will also do that for you), there are also verses in the Bible that can be taken literally,the one I just mentioned,and here, where it is written in 2 Corinthians 5:7,(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)Mark 11:22, And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

Also where it is written in Mattew 9:29, ....According to your faith be it unto you.Or here in John 15:13, Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

There's more scriptures of course that can be taken literal, and as I said before, some verses from the bible must be spiritually descerned.

However, this is what I believe where it pertains to God.

I also believe that there is more to this life than we have yet seen, or can even imagine. I also believe in ghosts, demons,ufo's,and that witchcraft works.

So you see, my beliefs spand farther than you can even know.

I have told you what I believe according to the topic of this forum,"DOES GOD EXIST? WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE?"

Yes, I for one believe. The end. Period.

To everyone I say, have a great day, and Blessed Be.....

Edited July 26, 2004 by earthygirl04

[4dplane]

but if a non-believer could try to be objective for a moment they'd probably realize that the Bible believing person is actually trying to help them

Yes comrade, but please realize that I too am trying to help, just because one is a Christian doesn’t give them the green light on knowing what is good and bad. How do you know Satan didn’t write the Bible and all people who believe in the Bible are the ones who will be burning in hell for not using their god given minds and seeing the cruelty and selfishness that the Bible portrays. Hmmm…. Hard to swallow I’m sure.

But this is what Christians do to me and all people who do not believe in their god. You perpetuate my damnation and the damnation of the world. How can you say this is good?

Do I try to speed up the destruction of the planet simply because I think that its destruction is pre-ordained? Absolutely not! This would be insanity!

Again if Armageddon does not happen then will this not disprove Christianity? I personally know quite a few practicing Christians. They are wonderful people; one of them is my wife. So I can fully believe that you Todd are a fine person on the planet and wish no one harm. But can this statement really be true considering Christians belief in the world coming to an end. You believe in this idea hence you want it to happen. I on the other hand do not want it to happen. Since I have no love for the idea of all things being destroyed, my believe system / religion moves towards the idea of sustaining life on this planet / universe indefinitely. You see in my religion, I condemn no one to an eternity of hell. I say all souls are good even if they have gone sour for a moment. This is true love – something the Christian God and many other gods seem to be fully incapable of.

I have a hypothetical solution which will save more souls from burning in hell then ever before. Lets drop all the nukes right now killing everyone on the planet. What we will accomplish is saving the billions of unborn souls from ever having a chance of entering hell, since most people living on earth will go to hell. Think of the billions of babies that will be born in the next fifty years, say 6 Billion, most of these souls will end up in hell so lets stop the madness by stopping the human race.

O’ this sounds crazy my fault – but if I can think it who else may be thinking it, and where did they get such a crazy idea?

[CatAstrofix]

I wasn't planning to get into this, but just a small remark here.

If a christian lives according to the bible, he knows his responsability over the nature and animals. Harming them or any human being would be simply against the god's words. Also there's no such thing as "better ppl". For christian, any person should be as important and dear as the next one. As for saving souls by killing, or intentionally "ending the world", I guess that was sarcasm.

[4dplane]

I am in no way saying we should end the world, hence the remark is sarcastic, but it does show a logical solution of helping people not go to hell. Man kind could sacrifice itself to save the next countless billions that will be born for hell. Kind of like what Jesus did, only...

Now who can say that's selfish? This could be seen as the most unselfish act possible. Yes it breaks a few of gods words but not everyone needs to be apart of it, so only a few more of gods rules would need to be broken instead of the countless number that will be broken if we continue.

[CatAstrofix]

4dplane, You're not making much sense to me, and for that I congratulate myself.

If you had actually a point, I missed it. What comes to unselfish saving of souls, here's something for that.

"The first reports out of Guyana on November 18, 1978 were that Congressman Leo J. Ryan and four other members of his party were shot and killed as they attempted to board a plane at Port Kaituma airstrip. Within hours, came the shocking announcement that 408 American citizens had committed suicide at a communal village they had built in the jungle in Northwest Guyana. The community had come to be known as “Jonestown.” The dead were all members of a group known as “The People’s Temple” which was led by the Reverend Jim Jones. It would soon be learned that 913 of the 1100 people believed to have been at “Jonestown” at the time, had died in a mass suicide."

Full story at

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murd...wn/index_1.html

There are others of the kind too. I'm sure that there's also a psychological profile to fit to ppl who think like this or believe in "saving souls" in this manner.

[DrStrangelove]

I believe in God simply because creation needs a creator.

[Q-La]

I am seriously proposing a topic of debate:

Debate for/against the existence of God is useless.

[Asterix]

I believe in God simply because creation needs a creator. 

I am not wishing to start debating in this topic, I have barely followed it, but I have to admit, your one-liner, Dr. Strangelove, made much more sense than many of the posts around...

Edited July 27, 2004 by Asterix

[Stellar]

I believe in God simply because creation needs a creator.

So you admit that God also needs a creator?

[4dplane]

CatAstrofix, I learned about the Jim Jones story a few years back and it had a great impact on me, I just couldn’t believe that all those people would do such a think to themselves especial their children. Anyone who does not no the story and wants to get a certain perspective of what belief can do to us take a look at CatAstrofix link, it’s a doozy!

To my point (look at my 1st post of this topic 3rd paragraph 1st sentence and 2nd sentence) - I believe that because Christians and other religions want Armageddon to happen it makes them poor leaders for running this planet. To them it will all be over someday and some think it will happen in the next 4 years. This is not a good mindset for the future of man and the planet, which I’m assured in my own mind, will be around for millions of years to come. So it incredibly pains me to think that we as walking, talking, thinking creators that have been born from this beautiful planet only find peace by the thought that one day this world will be destroyed.

I have talked to many a teenager that is a full blown Christian. These people laugh at the idea of space travel, black holes, parallel universes, Einstein’s special and generatively, molecule biology, stem cell research, science in general. To them current events are useless to watch and understand because in the end god will come and destroy it all and take the good people away. If the nukes start dropping right now that’s ok it’s supposed to happen and I know Jesus love me so I’ll be all right. Boo! This is what’s going to let it happen, people who think it’s supposed to happen. Get it?

I hope I have explained myself and where my pain lies. To my hypothetical solution of saving all the souls possible, it was just that, a hypothetical solution that shows how insane the idea of god is with hell and the advent of Armageddon. To me because my story makes logical sense according to the rules of the Christian God, I say it most be wrong, how would he let such insanity exist.

[Todd]

First off, I would agree with you in THEORY 4dplane that simply because one is a Christian, it does'nt automatically follow that they "know" what is good and bad. Several factors would come into play, the most important to someone such as yourself being 'Is Christianity true?'. Once this question was settled the next question would be whethor or not a mutual, accurate understanding of the scriptures was possible. Finally one would have to be reasonably sure that the Christian in question was in fact a true Christian, (assuming that positive conclusions had been arrived at for the first three questions). After all of that (And even before if you happen to be less skeptical than I was before I became a Christian) then I believe that one could safely say that a Christian knows the difference between good and bad.

In regards to your "Maybe the devil did it?" theory I would have to say that since the devil is imperfect, (As are we) I fail to see how he could have produced the work of perfection that is The Bible. Also, if the devil did write it then where would God be; in Heaven saying "Oh that crafty devil, he beat me to the punch and now EVERYONE IS CONFUSED!" Such a powerless God is not found in The Bible which if your idea was correct, would be exactly the place that you might find such a notion.

The idea that because I believe that the world will one day end, that I therefore WANT it to happen is confusing. Utilizing the same logic, one could accuse all people who subscribe to the theory of evolution of WANTING to be, (or having been in the past as a species,) less than human. They simply believe that evolution is true, as I simply believe that the upcoming destruction of the world is true, it does'nt really matter what we want or might want, one way or another SOMETHING is true; it's what that something is that is in question.

I would also like to point out that neither I nor any other Christian for that matter can condemn anyone to an eternity in Hell. Oh we can say the words, as you did when asking how we knew that the devil did'nt write The Bible, but ultimately what is the value of these words? I'd suggest that the next time someone tells you, or infers that you are going to be condemned for all eternity and the idea bothers you as indeed it should, that you (as calmly as possible) ask that person HOW they arrived at that conclusion. They should, if they have the strength of their convictions be able to tell you where in The Bible they received the information indicating that you would be condemned under your current lifestyle(This is assuming that the condemnation in question is biblical in nature). Armed with this knowledge, you have two courses of action open to you. The first course of action is to do nothing, simply ignoring their plea, the information, everything, because it does'nt conform to what you already accept as "REALITY". The second course of action is to look into this supposed "Holy Book"as much as it takes to either prove or disprove to the very best of your abilities the allegation that you are currently heading towards eternal condemnation.

Which course of action is the most honest?

[oy-]

I believe in God simply because creation needs a creator. 

So you admit that God also needs a creator?

Good question.

[CatAstrofix]

I've been participating in a couple of religion-threads here, mostly trying to correct ppl's impressions about christians, or christianity. It seems that it was at very least meaningless, since in the countries that most of you are (specially US) christianity is so different from what it is here.

I belong into Finnish lutherian churce. I'm what they call a list member. I'm raised as a christian, taught all the basics, but I don't participate in church-activities. I don't even go to church, except last easter I did, and some years I've gone to christmas church. I'm left to determine individually what christianity means to me, and allowed to call myself as christian, even if I didn't agree with the church about everything.

I believe, that things like 10 commandmends, or "love yourself like you love others" are really good guidelines on how to live my life. Of course I can't always follow them, not even if I wanted to, but the point is to try. I also believe in mercy and forgiving, which is necessary since I'll never be throughoutly good. I don't believe in hell, nor I believe that anyone can earn their place in heaven. I'm not even sure what I think about heaven. I don't believe in converting others. My friends are atheists, orthodox-christians, pagans and lots of other things. I have no wish to bang them on the head with the bible to save their souls. Even if I was convinced that I need to convert others, I believe that best way to do that would be thru example. "live like I do, repecting and loving ppl around you and taking care of yourself".

There are christians, telling me that if I don't truly find the way to give my life to Jesus, I will burn in hell, from their opinion what I do now is not enough. What do I care, it's their opinion. According to my beliefs they couldn't save my soul anyhow, and I won't be judged by them. There are atheists who tell me, that since I don't take bible 100% true, I can't believe any of it, and therefore I'm not truly christian. I don't care about that either, 'cause they don't define me or my beliefs.

This is the backround I base my postings on. It's what I stand for, and call myself christian. If I didn't live in Finland, and belonged to this specific church, which lets me be as I am, I don't know if I could belong into any other church, but I'd still be what I am.

Religion isn't dangerous, ppl can be. and btw, about the mass and serial killers, most of them are motivated by something else than saving souls.

[DrStrangelove]

So you admit that God also needs a creator?

No, silly, God itsn't the created. He doesn't need a creator. He just is God. He existed forever and will continue to do so.

Edited July 28, 2004 by DrStrangelove

[Stellar]

He needs to have been created though... unless you admit that some things dont need to be created and they were just always there...

[Kat_Kloud]

Norman needs to take lessons from CatAstrofix.

No, silly, God itsn't the created. He doesn't need a creator. He just is God. He existed forever and will continue to do so.

And that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard (or at least in the top ten list). If someone argues that creation needs a creator, then everything must have a creator, no? I thought something could come never come from nothing?

And if so, why isn't it possible for the universe to always have been present, in existence? The universe is infinite and has millions of stars, suns, galaxies and solar systems- And I wonder, where is god when he is busy making us and planning our destinies for us? Is he sitting in the universe?

By the way, I don't support the big bang theory, but creationism is no better than that. If creationists are going to argue that you can't get something out of nothing (the tiny speck that became the universe*- Then where the hell did God get his ingridients to make us? Did he pull them out of his butt? Thin air?

I have to agree that some of the things taught in the bible are good morals. Example: treat others as you would want to be treated, do not murder, do not lie... but there are many good morals like that from all kinds of things, not just the bible.

By the way, there's this great guy named Neo who died for the human race and fought this big bad guy named Agent Smith- Is the Matrix going to be a religion in 2000 years!?!? I seriously doubt it.

Edited July 29, 2004 by Kat_Kloud

[Wings of Selkhet]

Is the Matrix going to be a religion in 2000 years!?!? I seriously doubt it.

Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't some crazy Matrix cults developing out there right now...

The big bang is just as improbable as creationism, because the first law of physics one learns is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So DrStrangeLove is right in a sense that, all the energy that exists right now always has and will continue to do so. You can't destroy it. But you can't create it. So where did it all come from? The energy/matter involved in the big bang had to come from somewhere, right?

*sigh* I guess my belief is that all the energy that exists right now always has existed. It's impossible to create energy. But I digress, because this has nothing to do with evolution.

Edited July 29, 2004 by Wings of Selkhet