[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

Abramelin:

I hope that you, Alewyn,, as a South African, understand the Dutch language for I have several links to texts written by and about Goffe Jensma. But also have some of his texts in English, so I think his message will be clear.

But before I fire, I want to ask you this: according to the Oera Linda Book, Aldland/Atland, or the 'old land" was located in the North Sea between Denmark and the Shetland Isles, and was submerged by a deluge at a date given as 2193 BC. That area is nowadays called "Doggerland", and there is a 32 page thread about it here. One of the scientific facts of Doggerland is that its last remants finally submerged around 6100 BC during a deluge caused by a huge tsunami (caused by the Storegga Slide). I realize that thread is a bit long, but I advise you to read it. And then I want to ask you: where is the proof that Doggerland was still above sea level around 2193 BC?? If you can, you will make me happy !!

Hi Abramelin,

I am afraid my Dutch is very limited although my home language is Afrikaans. I will not be able to pick up the finer nuances in Dutch and definitely not the technical terms in a academic dissertation. (My forefathers left Europe more than 300 years ago.) Anything concerning Professor Jensma will unfortunately have to be in English

I shall try to respond to your comments about the Dogger Bank or "Doggerland" first and the rest will have to wait a while.

I could not find anywhere in the OLB where they say that their Altland was in the North Sea. What does seem clear to me is that this Old Land was somewhere to the West of Europe. In Chapters XXIII and XXIV of "the Book of Adela's followers" they relate the story of Tunis and Inka who became outcasts. They sailed from Sweden to Spain 193 years after the disappearance of Atland. In "Kadik" (present day Cadiz) they parted ways. Tunis sailed east and Inka apparently sailed west:

"Chapter XXIV

2. …Tunis wished to sail through the straits to the Middel Sea, and enter the service of the rich king of Egiptaland, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda's people. Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace."

This tells me that their Altland could not have been close to Europe otherwise they would have known whether there was anything left. This was already 193 years after the disaster. In addition, they had just sailed through the North Sea. Atland therefore must have been a fair distance away and therefore not near the Dogger Bank.

I did, however, find the following which you may find interesting. (My book obviously contain much more detail.)

You are aware of "Frisland" on the old "Zeno" map and all it's variants (Mercator, Lafreri, etc) which dates from pre-1400 AD and which was also declared a hoax.

I redrew Frisland from the map on Autocad and then superimposed it on a satellite image of the sea floor around the Faroe Islands. I rotated the map 19 degrees clockwise and adjusted the scale to the sea floor (The old maps were not too accurate). Lastly I imported 100m contour intervals into the drawing. The match is almost perfect.

I gave a presentation (October 2009) to two professors at the School of Geo-Sciences of the University of the Witwatersrand in Johannesburg (Prof Morris Viljoen and Prof Richard Viljoen). They could not fault my presentation. In fact, Professor Morris Viljoen exclaimed: "You have discovered Atlantis!" I disagreed and told him that I can only agree to having discovered "Frisland". I am not in a position to say whether Frisland was Atlantis. From the contours I also pointed out a 200 kilometer long riverbed with which they both agreed. River beds do not form under the sea. These contours therefore indicate that this land must have been above sea level at some stage.

Lastly I presented a likely geological explanation to them as to what could have caused the submergence.(I have some 34 years experience in structural geology). Professor Richard Viljoen studied my slides for a while and then said :"I think you are right"

Whether Frisland was Atland or Atlantis, I cannot say. I also cannot say when this Frisland disappeared below the waves. What I can say with confidence is that the old map fits exactly on the contours. In research subsequent to my book I found that the coral reefs around the Faroe Islands seem to be in the vicinities of the old towns and old coastline – especially on the east side. Unfortunately I do not know how to import my jpeg figures onto this website. If somebody could advise me I will gladly post a few here from my book.

Regards,

Alewyn

Alewyn, I hope you do not forget that all the English translations you apparantly use were based on translations into Dutch by first Ottema, and later by Overwijn (the one I have). Jensma made a new - and according to him more accurate - translation of the original OLB manuscript. That's is why I hope this latest translation will be available in English soon.

Ottema and Overwijn translated the document based on their knowledge of (old-)Frisian place names, personal names, gods, and so on. Overwijn even created maps of Atland and the empire of the Frisians, and one of his maps clearly depcits Doggerland, together with the Celtic Shelf (on which the UK , Ireland and the Channel are located).

So, again, all the English translations of the OLB are based on the work of these two Dutchmen, Ottema and Overwijn. (Overwijn even mentions Dogger Bank).

==

I know about Zeno's map; it was Riaan, another member of this site, who made me aware of it. Here, ~LINK~~I talk about that map, and especially about the ''Frislant' island. Now, if you click on that link, you will be directed to a post in the Doggerland thread; then scroll down, and in a post you will see a very early medieval map made by Olaus Magnus; you will notice Frislant is gone.

My idea was (read the post I linked to, please) that Zeno may have heard of Frislant Island by some sailors/exploreres, but had no clue where in the north it may have been, so he just located it near Iceland. I did something similar to what you did, and suggested that that island may have been nothing but Dogger Island, the last remnant of Doggerland after that area got flushed down the drain. (BTW, although I have said a couple of times on UM that I don't know what was left of Doggerland after the deluge, or till when the last remnant was still above sea level, even the Wiki page about Doggerland tells us (and also more scientific docs) that it may have been above sea level untill 5000 BC. Also - as is being told in the BBC documentary "Stone Age Atlantis" it was being remembered long after it sunk beneath the waves ).

You locate Frislant (and as far as I know it's not spelled as 'Frisland') near the Faroe Islands, and it is known that they - together with a larger plateau - have been above sea level in the distant past. But that must have been many millennia before 2193 BC, during the middle of the last ice age.

--

If you want to upload pictures to this site, you can use several picture hosts, like Photobucket or ImageShack. I use Photobucket: create an account there, and upload the pictures you want to post, Photobucket will create a link to that picture (use the one that says "Direct Link", or when it's really huge, use the Thumbnail link), and then you copy that link, start a post here, click on the 'image' button , enter that link, and voila.

+++++++++++++++

EDIT:

I think it would be an interesting idea to invite Goffe Jensma to this site, but I assume he won't have much time to post on forums.

I will try to get his email address - I saw it somewhere online - and maybe you and him could start talking about the OLB. If I find his email address, I will send it to you in a pm here.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

EDIT:

I think it would be an interesting idea to invite Goffe Jensma to this site, but I assume he won't have much time to post on forums.

I will try to get his email address - I saw it somewhere online - and maybe you and him could start talking about the OLB. If I find his email address, I will send it to you in a pm here.

Hi Abramelin,

I am still reviewing all the references you posted, but in the meantime I would like to share some extracts from my book with you. Icidently, I gave Riaan a copy of my book and introduced him to the old Zeno Map.

If we accept that the Oera Linda Book is a hoax, (which I obviously don’t) we must admit that the perpetrator(s) must have had an extraordinary knowledge of classical history and the old authors. The following few quotes and references are only a small portion of the almost 200 quotes and references in my book. Please bear with me.

Homer: (ca 800 BC?)

In one of my previous postings (and in my Book) I made the claim that Homer’s “Phaeacians” were the Frisians and that “Scheria” was the Schelde.

“Odyssey”, Book V, Page 1

“When he (Jove) had thus spoken, he said to his son Mercury, ‘Mercury, you are our messenger, go therefore and tell Calypso we have decreed that poor Ulysses is to return home. He is to be convoyed neither by gods nor men, but after a perilous voyage of twenty days upon a raft he is to reach fertile Scheria, the land of the Phaeacians, who are near of kin to the gods, and will honour him as though he were one of ourselves.”

OLB: “Book of Adela’s followers”, ch. XXX (2-4)

“2. On the largest of them was a king of the Jonhis Elenda whose name was Ulysus, the fame of whose wisdom was great. To him a priestess had prophesied that he should become the king of all Krekaland (Greece) provided he could obtain a lamp that had been lighted at the lamp in Texland. For this purpose he had brought great treasures with him, above all, jewels for women more beautiful than had ever been seen before. They were from Troia, a state that the Krekalandar had taken.”

Homer mentioned that Ulysses came from Ithaca on the Ionian Islands. The OLB said he came from the “Jonhis Elenda.”(From “Jon-his Elanda” to “Jon-ian Islands” to “Ion-ian Islands”?)

Throughout the OLB we read of the Frisians’ maritime skills and sea voyages.

“Odyssey”, Book VIII, Page 5:

(King Alcinous describes the Phaeacians to Ulysses)

“We are not particularly remarkable for our boxing, nor yet as wrestlers, but we are singularly fleet of foot and are excellent sailors. We are extremely fond of good dinners, music, and dancing; we also like frequent changes of linen, warm baths, and good beds, so now, please, some of you who are the best dancers set about dancing, that our guest on his return home may be able to tell his friends how much we surpass all other nations as sailors, runners, dancers and minstrels.”

“Odyssey”, Book VII, Page 3

(Homer relates Ulysses’ impressions of Alcinous’ house)

“As the Phaeacians are the best sailors in the world, so their women excel all others in weaving, for Minerva has taught them all manner of useful arts, and they are very intelligent.”

OLB: The Writings of Apollonia, ch. III

“5. Her short kilt of linen, and her tunic of wool, she spun and wove herself.”

The Trojan War

According to Homer, the Trojan war lasted for 10 years. Dares recorded that the war lasted 10 years, 6 months and 12 days. Both Homer and Dares claimed that there were more than 1100 ships involved. Ovid mentioned a fleet of 1000 ships:

(P. Ovidius Naso, “Metamorphoses”, Book XII)

“But soon afterwards, he brought into that land a ravished wife, Helen, the cause of a disastrous war, together with a thousand ships, and all the great Pelasgian nation”

We can thus safely assume that most of the sea-going vessels in the Aegean was tied up in this war and the associated logistics.

In the OLB, (“Book of Adela’s followers”, ch. XXX) we read:

“1. After twelve years had elapsed without our seeing any Krekalandar (Greeks) in Almanland, there came three ships, finer than any that we possessed or had ever seen.”

Surely, this remark is just too casual to be part of a deliberate hoax.

The Pelasgic Athenians

Before I go any further, I have to explain the terms: “Pelasgic” and “Barbarian” (I am trying to condense a whole chapter here)

In my book I show that the word “Pelasgic” come from “Pelasgos” which means “Sea” and would therefore indicate “Sea People” (According to Vladimir Georgiev). The OLB referred to their Mariners as “Sea People”:

( The book of Adela’s followers, ch. XXIII)

“25. ...Many Magyarar fled back with their troops, and the sea-people took ship, accompanied by a body of stalwart Finnar as rowers.”

In “the book of Adela’s followers”, (ch. XXX) the Frisians complained about the heckling they had to endure in Athens:

“14. If our simple parents came to a general assembly at Athenia and made complaints, a cry was raised, "Hear, Hear! There is a sea-monster going to speak!"”

Even in Athens, therefore, they were known as “Sea People”.

The word “Barbarian” came from the Greek “Barbaros” or “Barbaroi” and simply meant speakers of the “Bar-bar” language which was foreign to the indigenous Greeks. (Compare with English “Blah-Blah”) Originally the word did not mean “savages”. On the contrary, they were highly respected. Ovid referred to the “Great” Pelasgic nation and Herodotus in the introduction to his “Histories” had the following to say:

“These are the researches of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, which he publishes, in the hope of thereby preserving from decay the remembrance of what men have done, and of preventing the great and wonderful actions of the Greeks and the Barbarians from losing their due meed of glory.”

Josephus (“Against Apion”, Book 1.11) had the following to say about the Barbarians:

“…(58) and I suppose I have sufficiently declared that this custom of transmitting down the histories of ancient times hath been better preserved by those nations which are called Barbarians, than by the Greeks themselves.”

In my book I quote other authors along the same lines.

Now I can come to my point:

The OLB claims that Minerva Ny-Helenia founded Athens in ca 1628 BC (“Book of Adela’s followers”, ch. XXVIII)

Herewith some extracts from Herodotus’ “Histories” (Book I, p19)

“What the language of the Pelasgi (Sea People) was I cannot say with any certainty.”,

“we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language.”,

“the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body”

”It was a branch of the Pelasgic, which separated from the main body, and at first was scanty in numbers and of little power; but it gradually spread and increased to a multitude of nations, chiefly by the voluntary entrance into its ranks of numerous tribes of barbarians. The Pelasgi, on the other hand, were, as I think, a barbarian race which never greatly multiplied.”

Thus, Frisians = Sea People = Pelasgics = Barbarians = Athenians = exactly as the OLB claims

The 305 BC Flood

Frethorik Oera Linda recorded a natural disaster which devastated the Netherlands, Friesland, Denmark ( largely a peninsula) and Norway in 305 BC. (OLB: “The writings of Frethorik and Wiliow”, Ch I) Here is an extract of his account:

“10. The Magy prided himself upon his cunning, but Irtha made him know that she would not tolerate any Magy or idol on the holy bosom that had borne Frya. As a wild horse tosses his mane after he has thrown his rider, so Irtha shook her forests and her mountains. Rivers flowed over the land; the sea raged; mountains spouted fire to the clouds, and what they vomited forth the clouds flung upon Irtha.

17. This happened in the year 1888 after the submersion of Atland” (305 BC)

Strabo (64 BC–24 AD), a Roman historian, referred in his “Geography” (7.2.1) to legends of a devastating flood that had struck the Cimbri:

“II. As for the Cimbri, some things that are told about them are incorrect and others are extremely improbable. For instance, one could not accept such a reason for their having become a wandering and piratical folk as this – that while they were dwelling on a Peninsula they were driven out of their habitations by a great flood-tide.”

Under “the Writings of Konered” (Chapter II) in the OLB, Konered describes how the Danes who survived the disaster turned to piracy:

“10. Afterwards many of the Denamarkar returned from the higher lands, but they settled more to the south; and when the navigators returned who had not been lost, they all went together to Seland. By this arrangement the Juttar retained the land to which Wr-alda had conducted them. The Selandar navigators, who were not satisfied to live upon fish, and who hated the Golar, took to robbing the Phonisiar ships.”

( The dawn of the age of the Vikings)

The following extract was taken from an article published in The New York Times on 29 December 2008:

“But several geologists have collected evidence indicating that something very big and unusual occurred in waters near the New York area around 300 B.C., give or take a century. And Dallas Abbott, a research scientist at Columbia University’s Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, is asserting that a meteorite, landing somewhere in the Atlantic, generated the tsunami.”

India

In Chapter XXVIII of “The Book of Adela’s Folloers”, the OLB describes how some of the (“Right-Wing”?)Frisians in Athens defied the local priests and elected their own leader by the name of Gert. They then called themselves the “Gertmanne”. They were subsequently kicked out of Athens and fled to India. (ca 1556 BC)

In India they called their new home “Gertmannia and started to clear the area. In the OLB under “The writings Of Konered” (Ch.VI) we read the following:

“21. On the west of the Pangab where we come from, and where I was born, the same fruits and crops grow as on the east side. Formerly there existed also the same crawling animals, but our forefathers burnt all the under-wood, and so diligently hunted all the wild animals, that there are scarcely any left.”

Richard Hooker on his Website “Ancient India, The Arians” says, inter alia, the following about the “Aryans”:

“When they arrived, the vast northern plains were almost certainly densely forested. Where now bare fields stretch to the horizon, when the Aryans arrived lush forests stretched to those very same horizons. Clearing the forests over the centuries was an epic project and one that is still preserved in Indian literature.”

According to the OLB the Gertmanne later relocated westwards where they established “Ny-Gertmannia”. By the time of Herodotus (ca 484 BC- 425 BC) the area was known “Gertmania” and on old Alexandrian maps (ca 320 BC) we find the province of “Carmania”. Today it is known as the province of “Kerman” in Iran.

These Gertmanne laid the foundations of the Persian Empire. In his “Histories” Herodotus wrote:

“The rest of the Persian tribes are the following: The Panthialaeans, the Derusiaeans, the Germanians, who are engaged in husbandry; the Daans, the Mardians, the Dropicans, and the Sagartians, who are nomads.”

Herodotus (and other authors) referred to the Persians also as “Barbarians”.

Arrian of Nicomedia wrote the following in his “Anabasis Alexandri” (The Campaigns of Alexander):

Book IIIb

“He now arrived in the land of the people formerly called Ariaspians, but afterwards named Euergetae, because they assisted Cyrus, son of Cambyses, in his invasion of Scythia. Alexander honoured these people, for the service which their ancestors had rendered to Cyrus; and when he ascertained that the men not only enjoyed a form of government unlike that of the other barbarians in that part of the world, but laid claim to justice equally with the best of the Greeks, he set them free, and gave them besides as much of the adjacent country as they asked for themselves; but they did not ask for much”

Book VIII, Indica:

“The Nysaeans are not an Indian race; but part of those who came with Dionysus to India; possibly even of those Greeks who became past service in the wars which Dionysus waged with Indians; possibly also volunteers of the neighbouring tribes whom Dionysus settled there together with the Greeks, calling the country Nysaea from the mountain Nysa, and the city itself Nysa”

DNA Evidence

A report by Bijal P. Trivedi written in May 2001 entitled “Genetic evidence suggests European migrants may have influenced the origins of India’s caste system”, appear to provide the ultimate proof that the Gertmanne were the “Aryans”

“A new study has revealed that Indians belonging to higher castes are genetically closer to Europeans than are individuals from lower castes, whose genetic profiles are closer to those of Asians.”

“The authors believe their results support the notion that Europeans who migrated into India between 3,000 and 8,000 years ago may have merged with or imposed their social structure on the indigenous northern Indians and placed themselves into the highest castes.”

The naval Battle of Salamis in 306 BC

OLB: The writings of Frethorik and Wiliow ch. II:

“31. He went once to the state of Salamis, and after he had been some time fighting there, he had an engagement with the fleet of Ptholemeus. Ptholemeus was the name of the prince who ruled over Egiptaland. Demetrius won the battle, not by his own soldiers, but because we helped him. We had done this out of friendship for Nearchus, because we knew that he was of b****** birth by his white skin, blue eyes, and fair hair”

The Antigonus we read of here would have been Antigonus I Monophthalmus (Antigonus "the One-eyed", 382 BC - 301 BC). He was a Macedonian nobleman, general and satrap under Alexander the Great. Demetrius, his son, would later become known as Demetrius I Poliorcetes (The Besieger), king of Macedon (294–288 BC). The Oera Linda Book refers to “The Besieger” as “the State Winner”.

Plutarch (“Life of Demetrius”, ch 16) described the defeat that Ptolemy and his brother Menelaus suffered at Salamis:

“1. Ptolemaeus advanced with 150 ships, and he had ordered Menelaus, with 60 more, to come out of the harbour of Salamis, in the heat of the battle, and put the enemy in disorder by falling on his rear.

2 Against these 60 ships, Demetrius appointed a guard of 10, for that number was sufficient to block up the mouth of the harbour. His land forces he ranged on the adjoining promontories, and then bore down upon his adversary with 180 ships.

3 This he did with so much impetuosity, that Ptolemaeus could not stand the shock, but was defeated, and fled with 8 ships only, which were all that he saved. For 70 were taken with their crews, and the rest were sunk in the engagement.”

History (not the OLB) tells us that Demetrius made use of private contractors during the battle of Salamis and the later siege of Rhodes. Exactly what the OLB claims.

The Germans

The OLB relates the story of the return of the Gertmanne to Frisia in ca 300 BC. They became a distinct tribe separate from the Frisians, retained their name and also called their new home Gertmannia (around Emden). The Roman historians referred to “Germania” and the “Germans”

Tacitus, a Roman Senator and historian (ca 56 AD – ca 117 AD) wrote in his Germania some 350 years later:

“The Germans, I am apt to believe, derive their original from no other people; and are nowise mixed with different nations arriving amongst them: since anciently those who went in search of new buildings, travelled not by land, but were carried in fleets; and into that mighty ocean so boundless, and, as I may call it, so repugnant and forbidding, ships from our world rarely enter.

For the rest, they affirm Germany to be a recent word, lately bestowed: for that those who first passed the Rhine and expulsed the Gauls, and are now named Tungrians, were then called Germans: and thus by degrees the name of a tribe prevailed, not that of the nation; so that by an appellation at first occasioned by terror and conquest, they afterwards chose to be distinguished, and assuming a name lately invented were universally called Germans.”

In my book I compare Tacitus’ description of the Germans with Herodotus’ description of the Persians and the OLB’s description of the Frisians. The resemblance is absolutely astonishing.

I will give the last word here to Tacitus who (incorrectly), referred to all West Europeans as “Germans:

“Hitherto, I have been describing Germany towards the west. To the northward, it winds away with an immense compass. And first of all occurs the nation of the Chaucians: who though they begin immediately at the confines of the Frisians, and occupy part of the shore, extend so far as to border upon all the several people whom I have already recounted; till at last, by a Circuit, they reach quite to the boundaries of the Chatti. A region so vast, the Chaucians do not only possess but fill; a people of all the Germans the most noble, such as would rather maintain their grandeur by justice than violence. They live in repose, retired from broils abroad, void of avidity to possess more, free from a spirit of domineering over others. They provoke no wars, they ravage no countries, they pursue no plunder. Of their bravery and power, the chief evidence arises from hence, that, without wronging or oppressing others, they are come to be superior to all. Yet they are all ready to arm, and if an exigency require, armies are presently raised, powerful and abounding as they are in men and horses; and even when they are quiet and their weapons laid aside, their credit and name continue equally high.”

I believe that this is exactly how the OLB tried to portray themselves.

I can go on and on but this posting is already embarrassingly long. Apart from the few quotes above from the old authors, I provide, what I would like to believe, other conclusive evidence in terms of Archaeology, Genetics, linguistics, etc. that the OLB is authentic.

All that the proponents of “The Hoax Theory” can come up with is that the paper and the language used in the OLB is too modern, as well as some speculation as to “whodunit”. Surely nobody can realistically expect a paper document to last for 800 years. The OLB admits that it was rewritten. One can also realistically assume that, as the language evolved, the book may have been transcribed into the contemporary language of the day. This still does not make it a forgery as long as the historical facts were recorded accurately.

Other derogatory claims made is that the book is a viewed as a religious document by some and that it is also used by Neo-Nazis. (Some weirdos will even use a “Superman Comic” as a manifesto). To me the book is purely a book of historical importance and I found nothing in it to change my Christian convictions.

I cannot force anybody to read my book and I know there is not any money to be made out of it. (that is not my intention). I do, however, believe it to be a great tragedy that people are prepared to deny themselves such a rich history and would rather give the credit to “foreigners” (The Romans).

On the other hand, as an outsider, I may be missing some subtle nuances in Dutch-Frisian relations or politics.

Regards,

Alewyn

[Abramelin]

All that the proponents of "The Hoax Theory" can come up with is that the paper and the language used in the OLB is too modern, as well as some speculation as to "whodunit". Surely nobody can realistically expect a paper document to last for 800 years. The OLB admits that it was rewritten. One can also realistically assume that, as the language evolved, the book may have been transcribed into the contemporary language of the day. This still does not make it a forgery as long as the historical facts were recorded accurately.

Other derogatory claims made is that the book is a viewed as a religious document by some and that it is also used by Neo-Nazis. (Some weirdos will even use a "Superman Comic" as a manifesto). To me the book is purely a book of historical importance and I found nothing in it to change my Christian convictions.

I cannot force anybody to read my book and I know there is not any money to be made out of it. (that is not my intention). I do, however, believe it to be a great tragedy that people are prepared to deny themselves such a rich history and would rather give the credit to "foreigners" (The Romans).

On the other hand, as an outsider, I may be missing some subtle nuances in Dutch-Frisian relations or politics.

Regards,

Alewyn

The hoax theory is mainly based on linguistics, and not so much on the material the OLB was written on.

It's also fact that here in Holland during the 19th century there was a fierce discussion between progressive Christian reformatists (the 'free', or Freya ) and the orthodox Christians (the 'Fijnen', or Finnen; even my own parents used this word, 'Fijnen' , for fanatic bible thumpers ).

The absolute proof the OLB is authentic would be if the OLB described true events and real places in the ancient past of which nothing was known in the 19th century, but which became known long after the OLB was published..

[Alewyn]

The hoax theory is mainly based on linguistics, and not so much on the material the OLB was written on.

It's also fact that here in Holland during the 19th century there was a fierce discussion between progressive Christian reformatists (the 'free', or Freya ) and the orthodox Christians (the 'Fijnen', or Finnen; even my own parents used this word, 'Fijnen' , for fanatic bible thumpers ).

The absolute proof the OLB is authentic would be if the OLB described true events and real places in the ancient past of which nothing was known in the 19th century, but which became known long after the OLB was published..

I thought that is exactly what I did in this forum over the last few days. You, however, appear to ignore it all. Do yourself a favour and read them again. Also, ask yourself this question: "If the Oera Linda Book is a hoax and prof. Jensma has already proven it years ago, why does he still waste his time by producing a new translation of this rubbish?"

As for me, I have had my say.

Regards,

Alewyn

[Abramelin]

I thought that is exactly what I did in this forum over the last few days. You, however, appear to ignore it all. Do yourself a favour and read them again. Also, ask yourself this question: "If the Oera Linda Book is a hoax and prof. Jensma has already proven it years ago, why does he still waste his time by producing a new translation of this rubbish?"

As for me, I have had my say.

Regards,

Alewyn

No, I didn't ignore it all, everything you wrote before I can read back in the book written by Overwijn (1951).

That's why I ask you again: which (English) translation have you been using?

And the DNA thing only proves Caucasians entered the Indian subcontinent as 'Aryans', something that was already known (or at least strongly suspected) a century ago.

EDIT:

And you are greatly underestimating what the people living in the 19th century knew of ancient Greek and Roman historians.

.

Edited June 30, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Here's a photo of the cover of Overwijn's book:

I once bought it (20 or more years ago) on a flee market for 80 guilders (that's like 40 euros now).

I bought it, just to see for myself what it was all about. Up to then I had only read short excerpts and summaries, and lot's of criticism in the Dutch press.

Alewijn, this topic interests me a lot, despite the fact that I am skeptical, so don't be p***ed off when I do not immediately accept your ideas and theories about it..

Btw, I think you used Sandbach's English translation of Ottema's book:

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

EDIT: someone needs to clean this site up; I now have to edit every post of mine because they all show up in HTML.

And a question, Alewijn: where - according to your interpretation of the OLB - was Atland located?

Edited June 30, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

To me the Oera Linda Book is equal to the Piltdown hoax.

To anyone reading this thread: read the Oera Linda Book, you will love it. It's certainly not a waste of your time.

Read it like you once read Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings".

Thinking about Tolkien, he would have done a much better job.

He was very much informed about ancient Germanic and Celtic languages and myths.

If he had left out all the exaggerated magical crap, in a thousand years from now he would be seen as some ancient scribe putting ancient legends down in words on paper.

Even our dear ol'Sitchin would have to bow down for him.

/

Edited June 30, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

But no, idiots prefer to live in fairy land.

Tir Nan Og

Avalon.

Valhalla

Heaven.

Well, I believe there once was a good land to live in, and it may have been the dry sea bed of the ancient  North Sea.

I also believe that Dogger Island was the last part of the Elyseum Fields, or Blessed Isles, to stay above sea level after Doggerland got flooded.

The Doggerlanders fled to  all corners of the earth when their home country got flooded;

I have seen om tv  what happened to the fisherman who returned home, after the tsunami hit Atjeh/Sumatra - Indonesia -  I have seen the face of the fisherman who returned home, a cameraman pushing his cam into his face, this fisherman seeing  the place he grew up in,  flattened, devastated, the place his family lived for generations, the place where his wife lived, his kids...... and he fell silent in front of the camera.......... he just stared at the horizon

I guess the camera man ejeculated... great news,eh?

Edited June 30, 2010 by Abramelin

[+DieChecker]

If there is anything I have learned from H.P. Lovecraft, it is do not read ancient obscure books with ancient writings in them. You could summon Nyarlathotep or something worse.

[Oniomancer]

2. The OLB stated that before the disaster "the sun rose higher". This would indicate that they were closer to the equator. The book of Enoch (Noah's Great-Grandfather) stated that the "pillar of the earth shook from its foundation" and "the earth was violently shaken and became inclined" Various ancient scribes described the unmistakable effects of a cosmic impact.(Ipuwer, Neferti, etc.) Very prominent scientists such as Dr. Dallas Abbott et al have actually found evidence of this in 2005 (Please check the "Burckle Crater")

3. Professor Timo Niroma , on his website “The Third Millennium BC¬ (3100-2100 BC)” states “During the years 2200-2100 BC the saltines of the soil rose markedly, possibly because of sea floods” at the time of the destruction of Akkadian Sumer (present day Syria). He also states:

“ Mesopotamia and other above-mentioned places were not the only victims of the 2200 BC event. As far away as in China, the Hongsan culture fell in pieces at this same time. This, if not anything else, is an indication of the mighty character of the event, and bolsters us to consider it as global. ”

One would think a strike powerful enough to increase or even cause the planet's axial tilt would do considerably more than cause a few earthquakes and tsunamis and result in more than just a vague pattern of archaeologically unremarkable shifts in cultural and geopolitical demographics. Surviving records from the period apparently make notable mention of crop failures and nomadic invasions but relatively little that would indicate a major disaster other than the current drought theory.

4. The OLB tells the story of a "Sea King" (not a monarch) by the name of Minnos that settled on Crete in ca. 1630 BC. In the 19th century nobody even knew that a "Minoan Civilization" ever existed.

You have that part entirely backwards. The so-called "Minoan" civilization was thus named after the legendary king Minos of crete, stories of whom were well known since antiquity.

I have tested the OLB against genetics, linguistics, theology, volcanism, climatology and many other modern discoveries and information that was not available in the 19th century and in every case the OLB was vindicated. Even ancient scribes such as Homer, Tacitus, Herodotus, Arrian, Ovid, Josephus and others support the claims made in the OLB.

As Abramalin noted, You don't find it the least bit questionable that by and large, the OLB corroborates the work of the ancients only after the fact?

[Abramelin]

Minos was known long before Evans discovered the Minoan civilization.

Minos reigned over Crete and the islands of the Aegean Sea three generations before the Trojan War. He lived at Knossos for periods of nine years, where he received instruction from Zeus in the legislation which he gave to the island. He was the author of the Cretan constitution and the founder of its naval supremacy.[5]

Herodotus 3.122; Thucydides 1.4.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minos#cite_note-4

But the OLB doesn't mention the eruption of Santorini (Mt. Thera) that must have killed many Cretans; that was discovered long after the OLB was published.

[Abramelin]

Minos was known long before Evans discovered the Minoan civilization.

Minos reigned over Crete and the islands of the Aegean Sea three generations before the Trojan War. He lived at Knossos for periods of nine years, where he received instruction from Zeus in the legislation which he gave to the island. He was the author of the Cretan constitution and the founder of its naval supremacy.[5]

Herodotus 3.122; Thucydides 1.4.

http://en.wikipedia....nos#cite_note-4

But the OLB doesn't mention the eruption of Santorini (Mt. Thera) that must have killed many Cretans; that was discovered long after the OLB was published.

Oh yes, I must correct myself here: the OLB mentions an earthquake in the Mediterranean around the time Mt Thera exploded. But we know now it was a huge eruption with tsunamis, and lots of ash and debri. Anyone sailing the eastern Mediterranean would very probably have perished, certainly those who were near Greece, Egypt and Crete.

Btw a few nice sites about the OLB:

FROM GODDESS TO KING - A History of Ancient Europe from the OERA LINDA BOOK

By Anthony Radford

1997 Ojai, California

http://www.earth-his...dford-intro.htm

http://www.zenrad.org/index0.html

Edited July 1, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Oh yes, I must correct myself here: the OLB mentions an earthquake in the Mediterranean around the time Mt Thera exploded. But we know now it was a huge eruption with tsunamis, and lots of ash and debri. Anyone sailing the eastern Mediterranean would very probably have perished, certainly those who were near Greece, Egypt and Crete.

Btw a few nice sites about the OLB:

FROM GODDESS TO KING - A History of Ancient Europe from the OERA LINDA BOOK

By Anthony Radford

1997 Ojai, California

http://www.earth-his...dford-intro.htm

http://www.zenrad.org/index0.html

The link to Radfords website was messed up, so here is the correct one: http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/God-king/radford-intro.htm

[Alewyn]

One would think a strike powerful enough to increase or even cause the planet's axial tilt would do considerably more than cause a few earthquakes and tsunamis and result in more than just a vague pattern of archaeologically unremarkable shifts in cultural and geopolitical demographics. Surviving records from the period apparently make notable mention of crop failures and nomadic invasions but relatively little that would indicate a major disaster other than the current drought theory.

You have that part entirely backwards. The so-called "Minoan" civilization was thus named after the legendary king Minos of crete, stories of whom were well known since antiquity.

As Abramalin noted, You don't find it the least bit questionable that by and large, the OLB corroborates the work of the ancients only after the fact?

[Alewyn]

You all conveniently ignore the biggest clue in the Oera Linda Book: THE TIMING.

Even if all the events were known in 1867, (which they were not), the dates of these were definitely not known and were only established in the 20th and 21st centuries.

eg 2193 BC, The Middle Minoan Period(ca 1600 BC), The Fall of Troy (ca 1190 BC), The Eruption Of Thera (ca 1553 -1556 BC), The arrival of Westerners in India (ca 1500 BC). The

list goes on and on. How did the OLB manage to get all these right?

You were told that the OLB is a fake and you just follow blindly. Why don't you start thinking for yourselfs instead of just bleating "four feet good, two feet bad!"

No, instead you resort to name calling and foul language - not what I would call a mature, intellectual and civilized debate.

"Deur hard te bulk laat esel sy stem hoor"

[cormac mac airt]

The Eruption Of Thera (ca 1553 - 1556 BC)

How did the OLB manage to get all these right?

They didn't. Just this example alone is shown to be in error, by about 60 years.

Two olive branches buried by a Minoan-era eruption of the volcano on the island of Thera (modern-day Santorini) have enabled precise radiocarbon dating of the catastrophe to 1613 BC, with an error margin of plus or minus 10 years, according to two researchers who presented conclusions of their previously published research during an event on Tuesday at the Danish Archaeological Institute of Athens.

Thera volcano in 1613 BC

cormac

[Alewyn]

They didn't. Just this example alone is shown to be in error, by about 60 years.

Thera volcano in 1613 BC

cormac

You are quite correct. Herewith some extracts from my book:

1. "Radiocarbon analyses of vegetative material found in the area were undertaken by three separate laboratories in Oxford, Vienna and Heidelberg. They all concluded, as mentioned before, that the eruption took place between 1627 and 1613 BC with a 95% probability of accuracy.

Archaeologists, on the other hand, base their findings on artefacts from their excavations and Late Bronze Age chronologies which clearly indicate that the eruption must have taken place some time later between 1550 and 1500 BC."

2. "It is interesting to note that the 60 meter-high tephra layer on Santorini displays three identifiable layers which seem to represent different phases of eruption."

3. " The proposed 1628 BC eruption of Thera would have been the Big One. The volcano, however, remained active and produced further but less violent eruptions in 1553 BC and 1121 BC."

According to the OLB, the founding of Athens and the settlement on Crete happened after 1628 BC. So, they could not have experienced the eruption first hand. The book, however, does record "Wild waves" and "many a good ship was lost" in ca 1627/28 BC.

The point here is, if the OLB was a hoax written in the 19th century, how could they even have come closely to this date or even remotely hinted at the effects of a volcanic eruption.

I can understand that one can question a single date but if you look at the sum total of all the events and dates, the balance of probabilities strongly suggests that the OLB is authentic.

[Abramelin]

You all conveniently ignore the biggest clue in the Oera Linda Book: THE TIMING.

Even if all the events were known in 1867, (which they were not), the dates of these were definitely not known and were only established in the 20th and 21st centuries.

eg 2193 BC, The Middle Minoan Period(ca 1600 BC), The Fall of Troy (ca 1190 BC), The Eruption Of Thera (ca 1553 -1556 BC), The arrival of Westerners in India (ca 1500 BC). The

list goes on and on. How did the OLB manage to get all these right?

You were told that the OLB is a fake and you just follow blindly. Why don't you start thinking for yourselfs instead of just bleating "four feet good, two feet bad!"

No, instead you resort to name calling and foul language - not what I would call a mature, intellectual and civilized debate.

"Deur hard te bulk laat esel sy stem hoor"

I went back to former posts, and I didn't see any faul language or namecalling, unless you mean the 'idiots' in one of my posts, but that wasn't even meant for you.

--

OK. The OLB is very precise with it's dates of events. So, if science now finds out a very precise date for such an event, and when their dates differ in decades or a generation of those given by the OLB, then your proof is gone.

EDIT I:

I see you posted already again.

Could you please quote from the text (like about those wild waves and lost ships)?

And could you please also tell us who's translation you have been using?

.

EDIT II :

I found it myself:

Ch XXII: HOW THE BAD TIME CAME.

2. In the midst of this stillness the Earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the Earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain.

Aldland, called Atland by the Sturian navigators who lived there, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the Earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

3. It was also in Finda's land that the Earth vomited fire, and in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

http://www.earth-his.../oera-intro.htm

This is about the destruction of Atland. Does that mean Atland was in the Mediterranean, according to you?

Atland was destroyed on 2193 BC, according to the OLB.

Thera erupted and destroyed Crete in around 1600 BC.

These appear to me as 2 different events.

.

Edited July 2, 2010 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

I

Could you please quote from the text (like about those wild waves and lost ships)?

And could you please also tell us who's translation you have been using?

.

EDIT II :

I found it myself:

Ch XXII: HOW THE BAD TIME CAME.

2. In the midst of this stillness the Earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the Earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain.

Aldland, called Atland by the Sturian navigators who lived there, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the Earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

3. It was also in Finda's land that the Earth vomited fire, and in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/Oera/oera-intro.htm

This is about the destruction of Atland. Does that mean Atland was in the Mediterranean, according to you?

.

The "wild waves" I was referring to is in Chapter XXVI of "The Book of Adela's Followers"

"4. In the year 563 ..." i.e 1630 BC

Par. 8 "...At the full moon, when the sea was stormy, she ran over the wild waves, calling to the navigators that they would all be lost if they did not worship her. Then she blinded their eyes, so that they mistook land for water and water for land, and in this way many a good ship was totally lost."

I am using Sandbach's translation

[Abramelin]

The "wild waves" I was referring to is in Chapter XXVI of "The Book of Adela's Followers"

"4. In the year 563 ..." i.e 1630 BC

Par. 8 "...At the full moon, when the sea was stormy, she ran over the wild waves, calling to the navigators that they would all be lost if they did not worship her. Then she blinded their eyes, so that they mistook land for water and water for land, and in this way many a good ship was totally lost."

I am using Sandbach's translation

OK, it's Sandbach's.

You quoted a few sentences from Chapter XXVI of "The Book of Adela's Followers".

Now I will give a larger quote:

Now We Will Write About the War Between the Burgtmaid Kalta and Minerva And how we thereby lost all our southern lands and Britain to the Gauls:

Near the southern mouth of the Rhine and the Scheldt there are seven islands, named after Frya’s seven virgins of the week. In the middle of one island is the city of Walhallagara and on the walls of this city the following history is inscribed. Above it are the words, "Read, learn, and watch."

Five hundred and sixty-three years after the submersion of Atland - that is, 1,600 years before Christ - a wise town priestess presided here, whose name was Minerva - called by the sailors Nyhellenia. This name was well chosen, for her counsels were new and clear above all others.

On the other side of the Scheldt, at Flyburgt, Sijred presided. This maiden was full of tricks. Her face was beautiful, and her tongue was nimble; but the advice that she gave was always conveyed in mysterious terms. Therefore the mariners called her Kalta, and the landsmen thought it was a title. In the last will of the dead Mother, Rosamond was named first, Minerva second, and Sijred third in succession. Minerva did not mind that, but Sijred was very much offended. Like a foreign princess, she wished to be honored, feared, and worshipped; but Minerva only desired to be loved. At last all the sailors, even from Denmark and Flymeer, did homage to her.

This hurt Sijred, because she wanted to excel Minerva. In order to give an impression of her great watchfulness, she had a c*** put on her banner. So then Minerva went and put a sheep dog and an owl on her banner. "The dog," she said, "guards his master and his flock, and the owl watches that the mice shall not devastate the fields; but the c*** in his lewdness and his pride is only fit to murder his nearest relations."

When Kalta found that her scheme had failed she was still more vexed, so she secretly sent for the Magyars to teach her conjuring. When she had had enough of this she threw herself into the hands of the Gauls; but all her bad practices did not improve her position.

When she saw that the sailors kept more and more aloof from her, she tried to win them back by fear. At the full moon, when the sea was stormy, she ran over the wild waves, calling to the sailors that they would all be lost if they did not worship her. Then she blinded their eyes, so that they mistook land for water and water for land, and in this way many a good ship was totally lost. At the first war-feast, when all her countrymen were armed, she brought casks of beer, which she had drugged. When they were all drunk, she mounted her war-horse, leaning her head upon her spear. Sunrise could not be more beautiful. When she saw that the eyes of all were fixed upon her, she opened her lips and said:

http://www.zenrad.org/fgk1/chapter07.htm

When I read this, I do not get the impression the event has anything to do with Crete or Thera or even the Mediterranean, but instead with the south-west coast of the present Netherlands.

The OLB image of Nyhellenia is based on the image of the Greek goddess Athena. Nehalennia, however, was depicted differently: with a ship under her left foot, a dog by her side, and apples (or sometimes loafs of bread) in her hand. The first statues were found in the 17th century near Domburg in The Netherlands.

This sea goddess was being venerated by many sailors around the North Sea, and her name is very probably of pre-Indo European origin.

[Abramelin]

Three writers, Jean Deruelle, Sylvain Tristan, and Guy Gervis all three have tried to prove that Dogger Island stayed above sea level untill around 3000 BC, even though according to science it finally sank around 5000 BC.

Also all three of them think that Doggerland/Dogger Island was the center of the Megalithic Culture, and that it spread from there to western Europe and even the Mediterranean.

Deruelle and Tristan think it stayed above seal level longer than is always assumed,

-a- because science is wrong, and

-b- it was being protected by dikes (of which no one up to now has found any traces of on the botton of the North Sea).

Like I have often said in the Doggerland thread, some people need to stretch facts to make an event or artifact fit into their pet theory.

You can believe me, the OLB date for the destruction of Atland - 2193 BC - and the whole OLB for that matter, would fit perfectly into their theory, but as far as I know, they never mentioned the OLB in their writings.

You, Alewijn, say that you never read in the OLB that Atland was located in the North Sea. Many others who wrote about the OLB would not agree with you; they all mention the North Sea.

If you can prove without a doubt that something catastrophic happened around 2193 BC, that some island - a center of ancient Megalithic civilization - sank beneath the waves, then I would like to hear about it.

-

Edited July 2, 2010 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

OK, it's Sandbach's.

Your Quote:

"When I read this, I do not get the impression the event has anything to do with Crete or Thera or even the Mediterranean, but instead with the south-west coast of the present Netherlands"

Scientists estimate that the Thera eruption of ca 1627 -1630 BC had a VEI (Volcanic Explosivity Index)of between 6 and 7 which would make it anything from 100 to 1000 times bigger than the Mt.St Helens eruption in 1980 in the USA or the eruption that destroyed Pompeii. Both of these had an approximate VEI of 5. Although this eruption occured near Greece, one can reasonably infer that it must have caused massive tidal waves as far away as the Netherlands and beyond.

Your Quote:

"The OLB image of Nyhellenia is based on the image of the Greek goddess Athena."

Ah yes, but if the OLB is correct, it would just be the opposite.

[Abramelin]

'Abramelin' date='02 July 2010OK, it's Sandbach's.

Your Quote:

"When I read this, I do not get the impression the event has anything to do with Crete or Thera or even the Mediterranean, but instead with the south-west coast of the present Netherlands"

Scientists estimate that the Thera eruption of ca 1627 -1630 BC had a VEI (Volcanic Explosivity Index)of between 6 and 7 which would make it anything from 100 to 1000 times bigger than the Mt.St Helens eruption in 1980 in the USA or the eruption that destroyed Pompeii. Both of these had an approximate VEI of 5. Although this eruption occured near Greece, one can reasonably infer that it must have caused massive tidal waves as far away as the Netherlands and beyond.

Your Quote:

"The OLB image of Nyhellenia is based on the image of the Greek goddess Athena."

Ah yes, but if the OLB is correct, it would just be the opposite.

I am not a geologist, but I am quite sure that a tidal wave or tsunami originating in the eastern Mediterranean would never reach as far as the North Sea.

[Alewyn]

You, Alewijn, say that you never read in the OLB that Atland was located in the North Sea. Many others who wrote about the OLB would not agree with you; they all mention the North Sea.

Yes, I cannot recall anywhere in the OLB that they specifically mentioned Atland in the North Sea. I will check again but it seems to me that people just assumed it was in the North Sea and based all their theories on this (incorrect) assumption. As for the Dogger Bank, the thought that this may have been their "Altland" never crossed my mind. I still believe that it is highly unlikely.

My interpretation of "The book of Adela's Followers", Chapter XXIV (2) is that Altland must have been a considerable distance from Europe. As I mentioned earlier, if it was in the North Sea, they would have known whether any part remained.

For now, I am going to watch Brazil getting thumped

[Abramelin]

'Abramelin' date='02 July 2010 - 12:49 PM'

You, Alewijn, say that you never read in the OLB that Atland was located in the North Sea. Many others who wrote about the OLB would not agree with you; they all mention the North Sea.

Yes, I cannot recall anywhere in the OLB that they specifically mentioned Atland in the North Sea. I will check again but it seems to me that people just assumed it was in the North Sea and based all their theories on this (incorrect) assumption. As for the Dogger Bank, the thought that this may have been their "Altland" never crossed my mind. I still believe that it is highly unlikely.

My interpretation of "The book of Adela's Followers", Chapter XXIV (2) is that Altland must have been a considerable distance from Europe. As I mentioned earlier, if it was in the North Sea, they would have known whether any part remained.

For now, I am going to watch Brazil getting thumped

Well, it was Ottema, the first translator - and on whose translation the later English translation are based - had a different opinion:

From Ottema:

(Dutch)

Uit dit geschrift blijkt, dat het een uitgestrekt land geweest is ten westen van Jutland, waarvan Helgoland en de Noordfriesche eilanden de laatste schamele overblijfselen zijn. Deze gebeurtenis, waardoor het schijnt dat een groote verstrooijing van den Frieschen stam veroorzaakt is, was het aanvangspunt eener eigene tijdrekening, overeenkomende met 2193 voor Chr. Bij de geologen bekend als de Cimbrische vloed.

English)

From this writing it appears that it was land stretching far out to the west of Jutland, of which Heligoland and the islands of North Friesland are the last barren remnants. This event, which occasioned a great dispersion of the Frisian tribe/clan, became the commencement of a chronological reckoning corresponding with 2193 before Christ, and is known by geologists as the Cimbrian flood.

http://www.friesgenootschap.nl/artikelen/olbottema.htm

Anway... HURRAYYYY !!!!!

Netherlands - Brasil : 2-1