[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

I am not interested in a 'discussion' with someone that -to me- appears to be more drunk than skeptic.

Up to now you didn't even try to discuss anything here.

Alewyn, Puzzler, SlimJim, Cormac, me, and several others were capable of discussing for many pages.

I had expected a bit more form a West Frisian, someone who read Jensma's book, someone who posted YouTube videos about the OLB.

We don't have to agree on anything - some believe, some doubt, some don't believe - but that should not bother us, right?

[Abramelin]

Since we can find bedr (in O.N) for sleeping place and rum for space (in O.N) it does translate to sleeping place space with no need for any Latin intervention in the formation of the word. In fact, did you ever think the people who were the Latin people, the actual people who were alot like Etruscans in Latium, that we actually use their letters could have been first based in the Nordic lands. I don't think it's far fetched and that the word iron in Etruscan says Aesir or aisar and that is the name of the Nordic 1st pantheon, with Freya it seems almost a given that these 2 cultures had some connection from the times of amber trade at the Vistula. Is that why the OLB word has a V instead of a U, the Latin V for U is actually older than Latin itself. It's the confusing V, U, F, Ph thing going on that complicates it.

If a V was written round like the Jule it would look like this U - that would be V. Which it is, but then you can see the U letter in the OLB looks like a small V.

Here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/img/olb048.jpg

So, the people of Vesta used a U for the letter that sounded like V, Vesta would have looked like Uesta or any of the 2 other variations of the V sound but still pronounced Vesta. Only the shape was different, not the sound.

The word bedrvm, therefore makes sense as is, it is a U sound with the V letter.

Ask yourself why does the Latin letter U look like a V.... because it's an alphabet from the Jule. The Latin people of Latium in the time of Rhea Silvia imo had to be from Northern Europe, even Nordic. At the very least, trading amber and learnt this Jule alphabet.

The people of Latium are really interesting and it should be recalled that Rhea Silvia, a Latium woman, the mother of Remus and Romulus was a VESTAL VIRGIN.

That shows a connection to Hesta/Vesta/Hestia the hearth and the whole culture of the Frisians folk mother, whose scribe was Hesta/Vesta - Vestal, the virgins of Vesta.

Puzz, what we need is some ancient Nordic manuscript that mentions 'bedrum'. That would be the most convincing, right?

Interesting point about the Vestal Virgins, so I checked the wiki page about them, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestal_Virgin

There are several Vestal names mentioned, but none look anything like the names of the burgh maidens /folk mothers in the OLB. I assume you tried to make a connection?

And then again, in the 19th century they did know about these Vestal Virgins.

-

The Romans got their alphabet from the Greeks and/or Phoenicians.

==

EDIT:

It appears to be a mix of Greek and Etruscan script:

The Latin alphabet, also called the Roman alphabet, is the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world today. It evolved from the western variety of the Greek alphabet called the Cumaean alphabet, which was borrowed and modified by the Etruscans who ruled early Rome, whose alphabet was then adapted and further modified by the ancient Romans to write the Latin language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet

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Edited September 26, 2010 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

"bedrum fon thêre Moder"

"slaapvertrek van de Moeder" (Ottema)

"bedroom of the folk-mother" (Sandbach)

You appear to suggest that this folk-mother was about to be raped in her own... what, 'praying chamber'?

TEX FRYAS (page 11/12 Adela´s Followers Book) point 3:

"... MEN NE TOF NAVT TIL MAN JO BEEDEN HETH."

Modern versions of this word may very well be:

BIDDEN (Dutch) meaning to pray

BIEDEN (Dutch) meaning to offer

BITTEN (German) meaning to ask

BJUDA / BEDJA (Swedish) meaning to ask, invite, request

This is why I think BEDRUM does not need to mean exactly the same as the modern English word BEDROOM.

In Dutch I would translate it -close to the original word- with BIDRUIMTE, a room for meditation as we would say today.

These Frya people were not Christians, as you should know.

TEX FRYAS (page 11 Adela´s Followers Book)

point 1:

"... HROP THAN THI GAST WR.ALDAS AN."

Which would mean something like: "...then call for the spirit/ ghost of Wralda."

point 2:

"WR.ALDAS GAST MEEI MAN ... TANK TOWYA."

Which would mean something like: "Wralda´s spirit/ ghost may one ... offer thanks"

...

Today Alewyns book arrived.

I´ll be back.

[Abramelin]

So you agree with me that Ottema's translation ("slaapkamer", bedroom) was wrong?

[Otharus]

So you agree with me that Ottema's translation ("slaapkamer", bedroom) was wrong?

There may have been a misunderstanding here.

See my post #1210:

"You ignored my alternative explanation of "BEDRUM". Do you find it hilarious too?"

Your answer #1211:

"No, I think it's wrong."

So you agree with my alternative explanation now?

[Abramelin]

There may have been a misunderstanding here.

See my post #1210:

"You ignored my alternative explanation of "BEDRUM". Do you find it hilarious too?"

Your answer #1211:

"No, I think it's wrong."

So you agree with my alternative explanation now?

I asked you earlier if you meant 'praying room', and you sort of said 'yes' with your 'bidruimte'.

But I still don't agree with your etymology of 'bed' being an abbreviated form of 'bidden', 'beden' or 'bieden'.

That is why I have tried to invite linguists to this thread, but they all seem quite hesitant to partake.

Now it's only people happily playing words.

EDIT:

I must add to explain: you suggested earlier it was Jensma's interpretation ('bedrvm' = bedroom), but actually it was Ottema's interpretation.

So that is why I asked you if you thought Ottema was wrong.

And it's important for many use Ottema's translation the world over (or a translation in english, based on his work).

.

Edited October 7, 2010 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

you suggested earlier it was Jensma's interpretation ('bedrvm' = bedroom), but actually it was Ottema's interpretation.

No, I said Jensma (and some others, like yourself) used BEDRUM as an example of a modern word (to ´prove´ that the OLB cannot be that old).

Ofcourse, Ottema was the first to make the understandable mistranslation and Jensma copied it.

I think I have made it chrystal clear that BEDRUM does not need to have been derived from the modern English Bedroom, but rather, the other way around;

Bedroom (slaapkamer; a place to sleep) is derived from BEDRUM (bidruim; a place to ´pray´ or meditate as we would say).

Now another, similar mistranslation by Ottema and Jensma...

OLB page 62, 5th line;

"INUT THA WAGRUM..." translated by them as "In the walls" (In de wanden).

What is a WAG-RUM? I think I know the answer but this time, I´ll give any of you a chance to show you can solve an easy riddle.

You really don´t need to be a linguist for this (but it helps if you know some Old-Greek, Swedish and the Westfrisian dialect).

Edited October 7, 2010 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

No, I said Jensma (and some others, like yourself) used BEDRUM as an example of a modern word (to ´prove´ that the OLB cannot be that old).

Ofcourse, Ottema was the first to make the understandable mistranslation and Jensma copied it.

I think I have made it chrystal clear that BEDRUM does not need to have been derived from the modern English Bedroom, but rather, the other way around;

Bedroom (slaapkamer; a place to sleep) is derived from BEDRUM (bidruim; a place to ´pray´ or meditate as we would say).

Now another, similar mistranslation by Ottema and Jensma...

OLB page 62, 5th line;

"INUT THA WAGRUM..." translated by them as "In the walls" (In de wanden).

What is a WAG-RUM? I think I know the answer but this time, I´ll give any of you a chance to show you can solve an easy riddle.

You really don´t need to be a linguist for this (but it helps if you know some Old-Greek, Swedish and the Westfrisian dialect).

THIS is what you said:

"An example often used (e.g. by dr.Jensma) is "BEDRUM", translated by him as 'sleepchamber' (slaapkamer)."

POST 1184

You think you made it 'crystal clear', but I doubt you know about linguistics.

I can make things 'crystal clear' too, playing with words.

[Otharus]

I can make things 'crystal clear' too, playing with words.

Please do.

Once more:

BIDDEN (Dutch) meaning to pray

BIEDEN (Dutch) meaning to offer

BITTEN (German) meaning to ask

BJUDA / BEDJA (Swedish) meaning to ask, invite, request

Do you think it is a coincidence that these words not only sound similar but also have similar meanings?

I don´t and will no longer waste my time if you do.

[Abramelin]

Please do.

Once more:

BIDDEN (Dutch) meaning to pray

BIEDEN (Dutch) meaning to offer

BITTEN (German) meaning to ask

BJUDA / BEDJA (Swedish) meaning to ask, invite, request

Do you think it is a coincidence that these words not only sound similar but also have similar meanings?

I don´t and will no longer waste my time if you do.

I did: read the thread , please.

-

The words in your list sound similar and have similar meanings, but that is not my point.

According to you an abbreviation, or better, the stem of one of those words is the origin of 'bed' in 'bedrvm'.

I am not being stubborn here (but no doubt many will think that, lol), but there is also another old Dutch and old Frisian word that means 'to wait' or 'to await', and it's something like 'beiden' (je tijd doorbrengen), in English something like 'to bide your time'. So if I use this word, you get something like 'waiting room' or 'resting room'.

To me that comes close to the modern English 'bedroom', and I assume that is why Ottema translated 'bedrvm' into the modern English bedroom (Dutch, "slaapkamer").

EDIT:

bide

O.E. bidan "to stay, continue, live, remain," also "to trust, rely" (cognate of O.N. biða, O.Fris. bidia, Goth. beidan "to wait"), apparently from PIE *bheidh-, an extended stem of one root of O.E. biddan (see bid), the original sense of which was "to command," and "to trust"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bide

.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

No, I said Jensma (and some others, like yourself) used BEDRUM as an example of a modern word (to ´prove´ that the OLB cannot be that old).

Ofcourse, Ottema was the first to make the understandable mistranslation and Jensma copied it.

I think I have made it chrystal clear that BEDRUM does not need to have been derived from the modern English Bedroom, but rather, the other way around;

Bedroom (slaapkamer; a place to sleep) is derived from BEDRUM (bidruim; a place to ´pray´ or meditate as we would say).

Now another, similar mistranslation by Ottema and Jensma...

OLB page 62, 5th line;

"INUT THA WAGRUM..." translated by them as "In the walls" (In de wanden).

What is a WAG-RUM? I think I know the answer but this time, I´ll give any of you a chance to show you can solve an easy riddle.

You really don´t need to be a linguist for this (but it helps if you know some Old-Greek, Swedish and the Westfrisian dialect).

Ottema doesn't use wagrum or wag-rum, he uses "wâgrum".

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_the002thet01_01/_the002thet01_01_0027.php

Anyway, I haven't found anything Old Frisian that even resembles this word and means 'walls' ('wanden' in Dutch).

I could have a bit of fun with this word, and translate it as 'wachtkamer' (wacht room) (the 'ch' in 'wachtkamer' and 'g' in wagrum are both pronounced as the 'ch' in the Scottish Loch Ness), 'waiting-room'. But I don't think that would make much sense because I don't think the 'rum' part of the word is a noun ('room') here.

And if Old Greekm Swedish and West Frisian is the clue - and I don't speak any of them - then I am curious about your answer.

.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Abramelin

[Eldorado]

Quick question, Abe.

What does "Oera Linda" mean?

I can't find a google answer/translation. (without reading through stuff am not interested in, lol)

Edited October 8, 2010 by Eldorado

[Abramelin]

Quick question, Abe.

What does "Oera Linda" mean?

I can't find a google answer/translation. (without reading through stuff am not interested in, lol)

It means 'Over de Linden', in English, "on the other side of the Linden". And de Linden is a small river in Friesland.

[Eldorado]

It means 'Over de Linden', in English, "on the other side of the Linden". And de Linden is a small river in Friesland.

Thank you, sir.

[Abramelin]

Thank you, sir.

I forgot to add that 'Oera Linda' or in modern Dutch 'Over de Linden' is a family name. So the "Oera Linda Book" is a family chronicle.

Nice example: http://www.odlp.nl/ (name of a 'drukkerij' or print shop).

.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

... there is also another old Dutch and old Frisian word that means 'to wait' or 'to await', and it's something like 'beiden' (je tijd doorbrengen), in English something like 'to bide your time'. So if I use this word, you get something like 'waiting room' or 'resting room'.

To me that comes close to the modern English 'bedroom', and I assume that is why Ottema translated 'bedrvm' into the modern English bedroom (Dutch, "slaapkamer").

bide

O.E. bidan "to stay, continue, live, remain," also "to trust, rely" (cognate of O.N. biða, O.Fris. bidia, Goth. beidan "to wait"), apparently from PIE *bheidh-, an extended stem of one root of O.E. biddan (see bid), the original sense of which was "to command," and "to trust"

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=bide

Great, in any case, it means that the word BEDRUM can no longer be used as ´proof´ that OLB must have been made up in the 19th century because it would be derived from the modern english word bedroom.

This was an example used by Jensma and in an earlier post by Abram (#115):

"I have a better example for you: one rather famous word in the OLB is "BEDRVM", meaning, "bedroom"... I found that quite hilarious."

[Abramelin]

Great, in any case, it means that the word BEDRUM can no longer be used as ´proof´ that OLB must have been made up in the 19th century because it would be derived from the modern english word bedroom.

This was an example used by Jensma and in an earlier post by Abram (#115):

"I have a better example for you: one rather famous word in the OLB is "BEDRVM", meaning, "bedroom"... I found that quite hilarious."

Sigh.......

The combination of bed and room into one word was a recent one, and most probably borrowed from modern (19th century) English.

Show me the use of this word, 'bedrum' in another Old Frisian manuscript.

It should not have been a rare word because I assume the Old Frisians had bedrooms in their houses.

So it should be easy to find another old Frisian manuscript using that same word.

Another family chronicle, whatever.

Believe me, I have tried, but couldn't find another.

.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Ottema doesn't use wagrum or wag-rum, he uses "wâgrum".

I never use transcriptions from Ottema or Jensma, I only read and translate straight from the original source (in JOL-script).

Anyway, I haven't found anything Old Frisian that even resembles this word and means 'walls' ('wanden' in Dutch).

I could have a bit of fun with this word, and translate it as 'wachtkamer' (wacht room) ..., 'waiting-room'.

Well done! You got very close. See how much fun it is?

TO WAKE (english)

WAKEN (dutch) - guard, keep watch over, patrol, waking

WACHEN (german) - guard, keep watch over

(zich) WACHTEN - wait, guard, look-out, watch-out

TO WATCH (english)

VAKA (swedish) - wake, watch, guard

The watch-tower would have been (one of) the central and most important buildings of a BURG (burcht, borough).

It would make sense to write important texts on its walls.

Therefore, my hypothesis is that "INUT THA WAGRUM..." originally means something close to:

"on the in- and outside of the ´wakeroom´ (watch-tower)"

or:

"on the (walls of the)´wakeroom´ (watch-tower)"

Later, the word WAGRUM or WAGUM may have gotten the meaning of walls in general.

But I don't think that would make much sense because I don't think the 'rum' part of the word is a noun ('room') here.

Why not?

Edited October 8, 2010 by Otharus

[Otharus]

Show me the use of this word, 'bedrum' in another Old Frisian manuscript.

It should not have been a rare word because I assume the Old Frisians had bedrooms in their houses.

So it should be easy to find another old Frisian manuscript using that same word.

Believe me, I have tried, but couldn't find another.

You are too focussed on old-Frisian.

The language of OLB is way older than old-Frisian.

It is as much old-English (as Puzzler said before), old-German, old-Scandinavian, old-Dutch, etcetera.

[Abramelin]

You are too focussed on old-Frisian.

The language of OLB is way older than old-Frisian.

It is as much old-English (as Puzzler said before), old-German, old-Scandinavian, old-Dutch, etcetera.

Whatever.

Show me another ancient manuscript that uses this word.

[Abramelin]

I never use transcriptions from Ottema or Jensma, I only read and translate straight from the original source (in JOL-script).

Well done! You got very close. See how much fun it is?

TO WAKE (english)

WAKEN (dutch) - guard, keep watch over, patrol, waking

WACHEN (german) - guard, keep watch over

(zich) WACHTEN - wait, guard, look-out, watch-out

TO WATCH (english)

VAKA (swedish) - wake, watch, guard

The watch-tower would have been (one of) the central and most important buildings of a BURG (burcht, borough).

It would make sense to write important texts on its walls.

Therefore, my hypothesis is that "INUT THA WAGRUM..." originally means something close to:

"on the in- and outside of the ´wakeroom´ (watch-tower)"

or:

"on the (walls of the)´wakeroom´ (watch-tower)"

Later, the word WAGRUM or WAGUM may have gotten the meaning of walls in general.

Why not?

"I never use transcriptions from Ottema or Jensma, I only read and translate straight from the original source (in JOL-script)."

I do too, and that shows me you should not use the 'a', but the 'â' instead.

==

Room is NOT the same as tower.

The OLB has a word for 'tower', but I admit I forgot. Have to look it up.

[Otharus]

I forgot to add that 'Oera Linda' or in modern Dutch 'Over de Linden' is a family name. So the "Oera Linda Book" is a family chronicle.

Nice example: http://www.odlp.nl/ (name of a 'drukkerij' or print shop).

Genealogy fragment Over de Linden (Oera Linda) family

Jan OL (ca.1717-?) X1745 Janke Hansen vd Woud

BRANCH 1 - CARPENTERS, SHIP BUILDERS

~~~Andries OL (1758-1820) X IJfje Schols

~~~ Jan OL (ca.1780-?) X1806 Antje Goedmaat

~~~ Cornelis OL (1811-1874)

Jan OL (ca.1717-?) X1745 Janke Hansen vd Woud

BRANCH 2 - BOOK PRINTERS AND PUBLISHERS

~~~ Jan OL (ca.1750-?) X Willemina ten Beest

~~~ Jan OL (1776-1858) X1802 Johanna Blikkenhorst (1776-1849)

~~~ Willem OL (1813-?) X1839 Jacoba Neever

[Abramelin]

Genealogy fragment Over de Linden (Oera Linda) family

Jan OL (ca.1717-?) X1745 Janke Hansen vd Woud

BRANCH 1 - CARPENTERS, SHIP BUILDERS

~~~Andries OL (1758-1820) X IJfje Schols

~~~ Jan OL (ca.1780-?) X1806 Antje Goedmaat

~~~ Cornelis OL (1811-1874)

Jan OL (ca.1717-?) X1745 Janke Hansen vd Woud

BRANCH 2 - BOOK PRINTERS AND PUBLISHERS

~~~ Jan OL (ca.1750-?) X Willemina ten Beest

~~~ Jan OL (1776-1858) X1802 Johanna Blikkenhorst (1776-1849)

~~~ Willem OL (1813-?) X1839 Jacoba Neever

Should make one think, eh? Book printers and ship builders. I didn't post that link to the book printer/print shop out of the blue...

This is about the OLB, a book that talks quite a lot about sailing the seas.

And who would know more about creating an ''ancient manuscript'?

Right.

[Abramelin]

Say Otharus, you have Alewyn's book now.

I hate to admit it, but because of what I am going through these days I can hardly focus on reading his book. UM is sort of a distraction to the real problems I should address in my life.

If you have any comments on what you read - with quotes and page numbers - I am willing to answer because I can look it up.

.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

"I never use transcriptions from Ottema or Jensma, I only read and translate straight from the original source (in JOL-script)."

I do too, and that shows me you should not use the 'a', but the 'â' instead.

==

Room is NOT the same as tower.

The OLB has a word for 'tower', but I admit I forgot. Have to look it up.

Found it.

It's "tore".

Chapter XXXI: This is inscribed in all our burghs -

(...)

Thaes aerge sêke bistonde-r thes nachtis anda winter by storne tydum as wind gûlde aend hêjel to jenst tha andêrna fêtere. Thi utkik thêr mênde thater awet hêrde staek sin balle vp. Tha drêi as et ljucht fon êr tore vppet ronddêl falda, sa-r that al fêlo wêpende manna wra burchwal wêron. Nw gvng-er to vmbe tha klokke to lettane, tha et wêre to lêt. Êr tha wêre rêd wêre, weron al twa thusand ina wêr vmbe tha porte to rammande. Strid hwilde thervmbe kirt,