[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Otharus]

... but just like in the JOL-script.

[Abramelin]

Yes, this confirms it, it means dawn, eos, morning star. Austi is dawn star, not East in etymological terms.

Sorry, NO star in that link..

"...goddess of the dawn...."

You: "If you can link me to some sort of etymology that says AST equates to East that would be good. That's not Ost."

LOL, you want an etymology for Ast that would explain it means East.

Ast eAst, LOL.

Eystra-, Øster- Aster- Easter-

What more do you want?

==

EDIT:

I see Cormac already answered you:

O.E. east "east, easterly, eastward," from P.Gmc. *aus-to-, *austra- "east, toward the sunrise" (cf. O.Fris. ast "east," aster "eastward," Du. oost O.S. ost, O.H.G. ostan, Ger. Ost, O.N. austr "from the east"), from PIE *aus- "to shine," especially "dawn" (cf. Skt. ushas "dawn," Gk. aurion "morning," O.Ir. usah, Lith. auszra "dawn," L. aurora "dawn," auster "south"), lit. "to shine." The east is the direction in which dawn breaks. For theory of shift in sense in Latin, see Australia. Meaning "the eastern part of the world" (from Europe) is from c.1300. Fr. est, Sp. este are borrowings from M.E., originally nautical. Cold War use of East for "communist states" first recorded 1951. Natives of eastern Germany and the Baltics were known as easterlings 16c.-18c. The east wind in Biblical Palestine was scorching and destructive (cf. Ezek. xvii.10); in New England it is bleak, wet, unhealthful. East End of London so called by 1846; East Side of Manhattan so called from 1882; East Indies (India and Southeast Asia) so called 1590s to distinguish them from the West Indies.

What is difficult to understand about, "O.Fris. ast "east," aster "eastward" ???

Edited October 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

or, Abe, do you say the Vistula lagoon is the East Sea Aster Sea - Estmere according to the book link you gave...

I showed you that area was called the "Frisische Haff" in Germa, or Frisian Bay.

Then we have those Prussians or Pruteni speaking a Brittanic language according to Tacitus...

Frisians to the west of Denmark related to Brittons, Prussians/ Pruteni to the east of Denmark speaking a Britton language.... Preteni/Pruteni.

It appears to me that at some time, a people with the hypothetical name of "Phruisians" migrated form Denmark/South Sweden. One part of that tribe went west and became known as the Frisians, others went east and became known as the Prusians. The North Sea was known as the Mare Frisia (Frisian Sea), part of the Baltic was known as the Frisian Bay.

.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

And I will keep repeating that the area between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea can not be the area the OLB talks about. Just look at any map, and you will see that that area is just a small part of Bulgary and Turkey, ie the area around the Bosporus/Dardanelles. If you stretch it a bit you could add Greece, but that's it.

----------------

EDIT:

Puzz said:

Bedrum = sleeping place - space

Wagrum = wall - space

Those are points I am pretty definite on now.

The language is not Latin based but Nordic and German and those 2 words can be explained as above.

No one ever said the language is Latin based.

And I haven't seen an explanation of "wagrum" meaning wall/space.

And.. I haven't seen anything satisfactory that tells me that word 'bedrvm' isn't a modern borrowing from English, "bedroom". It's the combination of bed and room we are talking about, not just the origin of the word bed.

.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

If this debate (and the silence)is anything to go by,The Dutch and the Frisians do not deserve the Oera Linda Book.

That's kind of a weird remark, unless you have put all of us, Puzzler, Otharus, Cormac and me on ignore and can't read our posts...

The Dutch and Frisians.. maybe you like to check up on the Inguavones instead?

[Abramelin]

Here's a scan from this book that fascinates me because of the way M and N are written (L COMINIVS), the outer lines not being vertical like in normal Roman script, but just like in the JOL-script.

I know it's not hard evidence, but thought some of you might like it anyway.

Nice find.

But if you can find the Jol script version of -th- too, then I think you hit jackpot.

[Abramelin]

I just made 11 posts since this morning, hardly quiet, I'm in Australia, I think everyone else is in bed now....I'm pretty much talking to myself at this time of day.

The Frisians deserve it, I do believe it is their history. They are originators of the English language and the Anglo-Saxons, after the Celts and prior to the Norman invasion, I believe they did trade in the Nordic Bronze Age and I think the OLB is true, everything is falling into place now.

The name Germany or Germanics only came into usage with the Romans, these people were there, their language is Germanic and IE, just like Old English. I have translated wagrum which no one commented on, into Germanic as in wattle-work wall space to write on and bedrum as sleeping place space.

I might not agree your whole book is correct Alewyn but I do think the OLB is truth after over 1000 posts in this thread.

I have posted about how that name of the Germans came into being: I think it was Tacitus who said that the Germanic tribes all adopted that name, "Germans" because one of those Germanic tribes had kicked the hell out of some enemy, and so the rest of those tribes started using that name for all of them to scare their other enemies.

[Abramelin]

Frya's Empire according to Alwyn's interpretation of the OLB:

What I really think is the real area (the area in red, the Inguavones/North Sea Germans):

.. and what a bit of imagination, the area inside the black line is to where the Frisians spread (as you can see, I should have included eastern England).

==

"They were probably a people of seafarers, the North Sea spanning from Britain to Eastern Denmark, was referred to as the Mare Frisia at that time. Small groups of Frisians settled the surrounding lands and their settlements have been traced to England, Scotland, Norway, Germany, Belgium, France, and obviously in Denmark and the Netherlands. Their language was probably very close to that of the ancient Belgae."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisians

Well, certainly not everybody is convinced their language was close to that of the ancient Belgae

"Frisian Migrations

The Frisian people also migrated to other areas in Europe. It has been proposed that Frisian migrations to what is now England occurred, after the Romans left Britain, during the early Middle Ages (along with the Angles, Saxons and Jutes); and that these peoples founded England or Angla-lond. There are certain studies that purport to prove Frisian involvement in this. Linguistics for example: that the Old Frisian language is that which is most closely related with Old English[16]; archaeology: that brooches found in Kent are most likely to be from Frisia[17]. And genetics: that Frisian men share a strong genetic background with men from East Anglia and the northern midlands of England[18].

In the Faroese island of Suðuroy people refer to Frísarnir í Akrabergi (the Frisians of Akraberg), indicating that the Frisians might have had some sort of settlement there [ME: and they had indeed, they were known and feared as pirates in the Faroer and some have said that that is where the mythical Frieslant on Zeno's maps was located; it was nothing but the name the Frisian pirates gave to the Faroer).

It is somehow believed the Frisians had settled across Scandinavia, Poland, the Baltic States and farther inland across Central Europe. Frisian seafarers may been invited to Ireland, the Spanish provinces of Asturias and Galicia near Portugal and the few might joined the Normans when they occupied Sicily in Southern Italy."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisians

There are many times I think this whole thing is about the Vikings/Normans, not so much the Frisians. The Frisans did spread out on their own, but that's quite different from owning/occupying all of Europe, whether you call them Frisians or Frya's People or Inguavones.

.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

And I will keep repeating that the area between the Mediterranean and the Black Sea can not be the area the OLB talks about. Just look at any map, and you will see that that area is just a small part of Bulgary and Turkey, ie the area around the Bosporus/Dardanelles. If you stretch it a bit you could add Greece, but that's it.

----------------

EDIT:

Puzz said:

Bedrum = sleeping place - space

Wagrum = wall - space

Those are points I am pretty definite on now.

The language is not Latin based but Nordic and German and those 2 words can be explained as above.

No one ever said the language is Latin based.

And I haven't seen an explanation of "wagrum" meaning wall/space.

And.. I haven't seen anything satisfactory that tells me that word 'bedrvm' isn't a modern borrowing from English, "bedroom". It's the combination of bed and room we are talking about, not just the origin of the word bed.

.

(Post 1355)I showed you already how rum is for space.

We can find wag and wall in the etymology for magic wand.

wand

c.1200, from O.N. vondr "rod, switch," (cf. Goth. wandus "rod," M.Swed. vander), from P.Gmc. *wend- "to turn," see wind (v.)). The notion is of a bending, flexible stick. Cf. cognate O.N. veggr, O.E. wag "wall," O.S., Du. wand, O.H.G. want, Ger. Wand "wall," originally "wickerwork for making walls," or "wall made of wattle-work" (an insight into early Germanic domestic architecture). Magic wand is attested from c.1400 and shows the etymological sense of "suppleness" already had been lost.

http://www.etymonlin...dex.php?l=w&p=1

Wag = wall made of wattle-work - (wand)

Rum = space

wagrum - wattlework wall space (to write on)

-------------------------

bedjam - sleeping place in the ground

bed - sleeping place

rum - space

bedrum = sleeping place - space.

Used by Germanic and Nordic speakers before being infiltrated by Romans and any Latin words from them.

*jam = wedged in. That would refer to being wedged into the earthen ground cot, it was a place to wedge in for the night. Once we stopped wedging into the space in the ground that part would have been dropped from the word bedjam imo.

**jamb jamb

early 14c., from O.Fr. jambe "pier, side post of a door," originally "a leg, shank," from L.L. gamba "leg, (horse's) hock" (see gambol).

http://www.etymonlin....php?search=jam

----------------------------

The words are clearly there.

I think you misunderstood my ast thing, it's all good. (Greek aster (star) then star of the dawn (ast)- From PIE aus - to shine - dawn doesn't shine, the star of dawn shines though - the aster of Greeks) I am over it now.

----------------------------

Yes, "Frisische Haff" is the Vistula Lagoon. Your book link earlier called it Estmere.

[Abramelin]

OK, I must have mmissed the wagrum bit. Not suprising when you post at least 11 times a day in one row, LOL.

"bedrum = sleeping place - space.

Used by Germanic and Nordic speakers before being infiltrated by Romans and any Latin words from them."

But sorry, the bedrum etymology doesn't convince me at all. And the word bedrum is never used anywhere before the English invented it.

==

I have a link to a very recent German dictionairy about old Frisian.

If you click on it, scroll down till you see 'ru-m' (and the -u- has a horizontal bar on top).

It is only used as an adjective, not as a noun (a noun like room or space), and it means something like 'roomy' or 'spaceous'.

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-R.pdf

.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Can you tell us more about this date that was supposed to be copied from those almanacs?

"FRIESCHE VOLKS-ALMANAK 1846"

(published by van Druten & Bleeker, Sneek)

1846 Het jaar na de geboorte onzes Heeren J.C.

7354 Grieksche Jaartelling => started 5508 BC

5795 Wereldschepping, naar onze tijdrekening

5607 Jaar der Joden, beginnende den 30 September => started 3761 BC

4039 Sedert den Zondvloed => started 2193 BC

6559 De Juliaansche Periode => started 4713 BC

2599 De stichting van Rome => started 753 BC

1262 Jaar der Turken, beginnende den 7 april

1771 De verwoesting van Jeruzalem

-850 Na de uitvinding der Uurwerken

-656 Na de stichting der stad Leeuwarden

-586 Na de uitvinding van het Kompas

-423 Na de uitvinding van de Boekdrukkunst

-329 Sedert de Hervorming

-267 Sedert de Unie van Utrecht

-270 Na de Pacificatie van Gent

-264 Invoering van den Gregoriaanschen of nieuwen stijl

-198 Na den Munsterschen Vrede

--62 Na de oprigting d. Maatsch.:tot nut v.'t Algemeen

--36 Na de vereeniging van Nederland met Frankrijk

--33 Na de herstelling der Nederlanden

--31 Na den slag bij Waterloo

--30 Het Koningrijk der Nederlanden

--16 Na den afval van België

[Abramelin]

"FRIESCHE VOLKS-ALMANAK 1846"

(published by van Druten & Bleeker, Sneek)

1846 Het jaar na de geboorte onzes Heeren J.C.

7354 Grieksche Jaartelling => started 5508 BC

5795 Wereldschepping, naar onze tijdrekening

5607 Jaar der Joden, beginnende den 30 September => started 3761 BC

4039 Sedert den Zondvloed => started 2193 BC

6559 De Juliaansche Periode => started 4713 BC

2599 De stichting van Rome => started 753 BC

1262 Jaar der Turken, beginnende den 7 april

1771 De verwoesting van Jeruzalem

-850 Na de uitvinding der Uurwerken

-656 Na de stichting der stad Leeuwarden

-586 Na de uitvinding van het Kompas

-423 Na de uitvinding van de Boekdrukkunst

-329 Sedert de Hervorming

-267 Sedert de Unie van Utrecht

-270 Na de Pacificatie van Gent

-264 Invoering van den Gregoriaanschen of nieuwen stijl

-198 Na den Munsterschen Vrede

--62 Na de oprigting d. Maatsch.:tot nut v.'t Algemeen

--36 Na de vereeniging van Nederland met Frankrijk

--33 Na de herstelling der Nederlanden

--31 Na den slag bij Waterloo

--30 Het Koningrijk der Nederlanden

--16 Na den afval van België

That's great, Otharus !!

So here we have the source for that date of 2193 BC.

[The Puzzler]

English is an Anglo-Frisian language. Germanic-speaking peoples from various parts of northwest Germany (Saxons, Angles) as well as Jutland (Jutes) invaded what is now known as Eastern England around the 5th century AD. It is a matter of current debate whether the Anglo-Saxon language spread by displacement of the original population, or the native Celts gradually adopted the language and culture of a new ruling class. There is also some debate as to whether there were substantial numbers of Saxons already in Britain in late Roman times.

Whatever their origin, these Germanic dialects eventually coalesced to a degree and formed what is today called the Old English language, which resembled some coastal dialects in what are now north-west Germany and the Netherlands (i.e. Frisia). Throughout the history of written Old English, it retained a synthetic structure closer to that of Proto-Indo-European, being based on a single literary standard, while spoken Old English became increasingly analytic in nature, losing the more complex noun case system, relying more heavily on prepositions and fixed word-order to convey meaning.

http://www.zeitlerweb.com/englishlanguage.htm

Just something else:

The Frisians believed that it was their own forebears who had constructed the stone circles of the British Isles, and the megalithic remains which are found all over Europe. They also claimed to be descended from the inhabitants of the lost island of Atlantis (or Atland, as they called it). Combining the information found in the Oera Linda Book (the sacred text of the Frisians) with the writings of Plato and other ancient authors, it is possible to piece together the structure and administration of megalithic (i.e. Frisian) society prior to the destruction of Atlantis (which is said to have occurred in 2194 BC).

The megalithic culture existed across the whole of western and northern Europe, and was the earliest large-scale civilisation on earth. Both Plato and the Oera Linda Book tell us that this vast area was divided into ten autonomous kingdoms, or kin groups, spread out over large tracts of Europe. In the north-west the Frisians had spread as far as the North Sea, which they called the Sea of Wr-alda. In the north-east they had spread as far as the Baltic, which they called the East Sea. In the south-west they had spread across the Iberian peninsula as far as Gibraltar and the Mediterranean, which they called the Middle Sea. In the south-east they had spread as far as the dense forests of central Europe, which they called Twiskland. Thirteen large rivers ran through the lands of the Frisians, including the Rhine.

The Oera Linda Book names the ten kingdoms, or kin groups, as: the Jutta (north-east Germany and north-west Poland), the Letne (Baltic islands), the Stiurar (Netherlands), the Sekampar (north-west Germany), the Angelara (central-north Germany), the Kadhemar (Belgium and north-east France), the Saxmanna (central-west Germany), the Landsaton (north German coast, Denmark, and North Sea Land), the Marsata (Switzerland), and the Holt or Wodsata (Portugal, Spain, and western France). In addition it names Skenland (south Sweden) and Westland (British Isles) which were not kingdoms in their own right but overseas possessions of the Landsaton Kingdom, which was the chief kin group. It is also stated that colonies existed in Heinde Krekaland (Italy) and Lydia (either western Turkey or north Africa).

The Skenland colony was, to all intents and purposes, a kingdom in its own right, though without the official status of one. Britain, on the other hand, was the land of the exiles. Those Frisians who committed acts of treachery against their own people were banished to Britain, along with those guilty of other serious crimes against their kinfolk, to work in penal servitude in the tin mines of Cornwall. The traitors were tattooed with red dye, and the criminals with blue.

A glance at the map will show that the lands inhabited by the Frisians were those very regions that display evidence of having been part of the megalithic culture. Moreover, at the time that the Frisians dwelt there the megalithic culture was in its heyday. The obvious conclusion is that the Frisians were the originators of that culture, the remains of which can be seen to this day in the form of cromlechs, dolmens, barrows, and stone circles such as Stonehenge. The earliest of these crypts, or temples, have been dated to around 4800 BC, so this gives us a starting point for the long and convoluted history of the Frisians.

Constitutional Arrangements

We only possess detailed information on the organisation of the Landsaton Kingdom, but it is to be assumed that the other kingdoms had similar institutions, coloured by local conditions. Most of the Landsaton Kingdom consisted of a huge rectangular plain to the west of the Danish peninsular, 200 by 300 miles in area. The long axis pointed due north. This incredibly fertile plain produced all the food requirements for the entire Koinonia (community of ten kingdoms), and was thus called Atland ("Oat-land"), a name corrupted to Atlantis in Greek. Possession of this plain within its territory ensured that the Landsaton Kingdom remained pre-eminent over the others. Unfortunately, by 2194 BC most of this vast area was below sea level, and was protected from flooding by massive dykes. Within these dykes a huge canal went round the whole perimeter and was thus a thousand miles long. The plain was also criss-crossed by smaller canals, 19 running from north to south, and 29 running from east to west, all of them ten miles apart. In addition to transport, the canals brought fresh water to all parts of the plain.

In the very middle of the southern edge of the plain a circular island jutted out into the sea, where the modern Dutch island of Texel is today. This island was some 13 miles in diameter, and had upon it the Holy City, glittering capital of the Landsaton Kingdom and therefore of the whole Koinonia. In those days the Holy City was called Flyland. Most of Atland perished in 2194 BC when the dykes were breached, and the same fate befell Flyland. Parts of the central portion of the city remained, however, as it was built on a hill, and this was later renamed Fryasburch, after Frya, the ancestral goddess who perished in the catastrophe.

http://www.coven-of-cythrawl.com/frisians.htm

A few things there, Frisians built Stonehenge...? maybe, why not. Atland means Oat Land. It also mentions that the German Bight had flooded with rising sea level by 2193BC, the same info as I gave from science link of water levels in the Bight at same time.

[Otharus]

So here we have the source for that date of 2193 BC.

It does not prove anything because it could as well be the other way around.

At least it shows how the 19th century Frisians seem to have been obsessed with year-counting.

Here's the list of one from (the traditionally more catholic) Amsterdam (1691), in which the year does not show:

"Comptoir Almanach"

(published by Johannes Stichter t'Amsterdam)

1691 op 't Jaer nae de Geboorte van onzen Heere en Zalighmaker Jesu Christi

5640 na de Scheppinge der Werelt => started 3949 BC

--43 na 't sluyten van de Spaanse Vrede

--41 na de geboorte van Prins Willem III, Prins van Oranje

Edited October 25, 2010 by Otharus

[The Puzzler]

OK, I must have mmissed the wagrum bit. Not suprising when you post at least 11 times a day in one row, LOL.

"bedrum = sleeping place - space.

Used by Germanic and Nordic speakers before being infiltrated by Romans and any Latin words from them."

But sorry, the bedrum etymology doesn't convince me at all. And the word bedrum is never used anywhere before the English invented it.

==

I have a link to a very recent German dictionairy about old Frisian.

If you click on it, scroll down till you see 'ru-m' (and the -u- has a horizontal bar on top).

It is only used as an adjective, not as a noun (a noun like room or space), and it means something like 'roomy' or 'spaceous'.

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-R.pdf

.

Yes, it means space. A space. Roomy, spacious space. It's an adjective - a sleeping place (bed) is the noun - space/area is the adjective, a descriptive word, giving more information to tha actual noun, which is bed, originally bedjam, until we stopped jambing ourselves in the ground and it went from a sleeping place/in the ground (bedjam) - to a sleeping place (bed) - to a sleeping place space (bedrum)

That's Ok if it doesn't convince you but it's pretty much what it is imo, most references will tell you the word bed came from bedjam, take the jam off and put in rum. It goes from sleeping place in the ground (bedjam) to sleeping place space (bedrum).

[Abramelin]

It does not prove anything because it could as well be the other way around.

At least it shows how the 19th century Frisians seem to have been obsessed with year-counting.

Here's the list of one from (the more catholic) Amsterdam (1691), in which the year does not show:

"Comptoir Almanach"

(published by Johannes Stichter t'Amsterdam)

1691 op 't Jaer nae de Geboorte van onzen Heere en Zalighmaker Jesu Christi

5640 na de Scheppinge der Werelt => started 3949 BC

--43 na 't sluyten van de Spaanse Vrede

--41 na de geboorte van Prins Willem III, Prins van Oranje

No, I don't think it's the other way round.

Whatever book you read, or whatever site on the web, you will always read how they came to that date.

Does the FRIESCHE VOLKS-ALMANAK say it got the date from the Oera Linda Book??

.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Yes, it means space. A space. Roomy, spacious space. It's an adjective - a sleeping place (bed) is the noun - space/area is the adjective, a descriptive word, giving more information to tha actual noun, which is bed, originally bedjam, until we stopped jambing ourselves in the ground and it went from a sleeping place/in the ground (bedjam) - to a sleeping place (bed) - to a sleeping place space (bedrum)

That's Ok if it doesn't convince you but it's pretty much what it is imo, most references will tell you the word bed came from bedjam, take the jam off and put in rum. It goes from sleeping place in the ground (bedjam) to sleeping place space (bedrum).

The 'rum' in 'bedrum' is not an adjective; the OLB never puts the adjective after the noun.

It must thus be a noun, and part of a composite word, bed+room, a word that first showed up in English (around Shakespeare's time) and not before.

[Abramelin]

English is an Anglo-Frisian language. Germanic-speaking peoples from various parts of northwest Germany (Saxons, Angles) as well as Jutland (Jutes) invaded what is now known as Eastern England around the 5th century AD. It is a matter of current debate whether the Anglo-Saxon language spread by displacement of the original population, or the native Celts gradually adopted the language and culture of a new ruling class. There is also some debate as to whether there were substantial numbers of Saxons already in Britain in late Roman times.

Whatever their origin, these Germanic dialects eventually coalesced to a degree and formed what is today called the Old English language, which resembled some coastal dialects in what are now north-west Germany and the Netherlands (i.e. Frisia). Throughout the history of written Old English, it retained a synthetic structure closer to that of Proto-Indo-European, being based on a single literary standard, while spoken Old English became increasingly analytic in nature, losing the more complex noun case system, relying more heavily on prepositions and fixed word-order to convey meaning.

http://www.zeitlerweb.com/englishlanguage.htm

Just something else:

The Frisians believed that it was their own forebears who had constructed the stone circles of the British Isles, and the megalithic remains which are found all over Europe. They also claimed to be descended from the inhabitants of the lost island of Atlantis (or Atland, as they called it). Combining the information found in the Oera Linda Book (the sacred text of the Frisians) with the writings of Plato and other ancient authors, it is possible to piece together the structure and administration of megalithic (i.e. Frisian) society prior to the destruction of Atlantis (which is said to have occurred in 2194 BC).

The megalithic culture existed across the whole of western and northern Europe, and was the earliest large-scale civilisation on earth. Both Plato and the Oera Linda Book tell us that this vast area was divided into ten autonomous kingdoms, or kin groups, spread out over large tracts of Europe. In the north-west the Frisians had spread as far as the North Sea, which they called the Sea of Wr-alda. In the north-east they had spread as far as the Baltic, which they called the East Sea. In the south-west they had spread across the Iberian peninsula as far as Gibraltar and the Mediterranean, which they called the Middle Sea. In the south-east they had spread as far as the dense forests of central Europe, which they called Twiskland. Thirteen large rivers ran through the lands of the Frisians, including the Rhine.

The Oera Linda Book names the ten kingdoms, or kin groups, as: the Jutta (north-east Germany and north-west Poland), the Letne (Baltic islands), the Stiurar (Netherlands), the Sekampar (north-west Germany), the Angelara (central-north Germany), the Kadhemar (Belgium and north-east France), the Saxmanna (central-west Germany), the Landsaton (north German coast, Denmark, and North Sea Land), the Marsata (Switzerland), and the Holt or Wodsata (Portugal, Spain, and western France). In addition it names Skenland (south Sweden) and Westland (British Isles) which were not kingdoms in their own right but overseas possessions of the Landsaton Kingdom, which was the chief kin group. It is also stated that colonies existed in Heinde Krekaland (Italy) and Lydia (either western Turkey or north Africa).

The Skenland colony was, to all intents and purposes, a kingdom in its own right, though without the official status of one. Britain, on the other hand, was the land of the exiles. Those Frisians who committed acts of treachery against their own people were banished to Britain, along with those guilty of other serious crimes against their kinfolk, to work in penal servitude in the tin mines of Cornwall. The traitors were tattooed with red dye, and the criminals with blue.

A glance at the map will show that the lands inhabited by the Frisians were those very regions that display evidence of having been part of the megalithic culture. Moreover, at the time that the Frisians dwelt there the megalithic culture was in its heyday. The obvious conclusion is that the Frisians were the originators of that culture, the remains of which can be seen to this day in the form of cromlechs, dolmens, barrows, and stone circles such as Stonehenge. The earliest of these crypts, or temples, have been dated to around 4800 BC, so this gives us a starting point for the long and convoluted history of the Frisians.

Constitutional Arrangements

We only possess detailed information on the organisation of the Landsaton Kingdom, but it is to be assumed that the other kingdoms had similar institutions, coloured by local conditions. Most of the Landsaton Kingdom consisted of a huge rectangular plain to the west of the Danish peninsular, 200 by 300 miles in area. The long axis pointed due north. This incredibly fertile plain produced all the food requirements for the entire Koinonia (community of ten kingdoms), and was thus called Atland ("Oat-land"), a name corrupted to Atlantis in Greek. Possession of this plain within its territory ensured that the Landsaton Kingdom remained pre-eminent over the others. Unfortunately, by 2194 BC most of this vast area was below sea level, and was protected from flooding by massive dykes. Within these dykes a huge canal went round the whole perimeter and was thus a thousand miles long. The plain was also criss-crossed by smaller canals, 19 running from north to south, and 29 running from east to west, all of them ten miles apart. In addition to transport, the canals brought fresh water to all parts of the plain.

In the very middle of the southern edge of the plain a circular island jutted out into the sea, where the modern Dutch island of Texel is today. This island was some 13 miles in diameter, and had upon it the Holy City, glittering capital of the Landsaton Kingdom and therefore of the whole Koinonia. In those days the Holy City was called Flyland. Most of Atland perished in 2194 BC when the dykes were breached, and the same fate befell Flyland. Parts of the central portion of the city remained, however, as it was built on a hill, and this was later renamed Fryasburch, after Frya, the ancestral goddess who perished in the catastrophe.

http://www.coven-of-cythrawl.com/frisians.htm

A few things there, Frisians built Stonehenge...? maybe, why not. Atland means Oat Land. It also mentions that the German Bight had flooded with rising sea level by 2193BC, the same info as I gave from science link of water levels in the Bight at same time.

I already told you this site, http://www.coven-of-cythrawl.com/frisians.htm , is not a real source. They used the OLB to create their website, jeesh.

[Otharus]

Whatever book you read, or whatever site on the web, you will always read how they came to that date.

People who claim this never provide proof.

Does the Enkhuizer Almanac say it got the date from the Oera Linda Book??

This was not an Enkhuizer, but a Frisian almanak.

Those almanaks never mention sources for anything.

It would have been a secret source anyway, because for hundreds of years whole families would be killed if they were caught hiding a heretic document or book.

[Abramelin]

People who claim this never provide proof.

This was not an Enkhuizer, but a Frisian almanak.

Those almanaks never mention sources for anything.

It would have been a secret source anyway, because for hundreds of years whole families would be killed if they were caught hiding a heretic document or book.

I already edited the Enkhuizer almanac to the Frisian.

"People who claim this never provide proof"?

OK, here's a Dutch book from 1741 (MDCCXLI):

~LINK~

Look what it says here, in the left sidebar:

"Het 1fte jaer na den Zondvloed. Voor Chriftus, 2997." >> "The first year after the Flood. Before Christ, 2997".

The writer uses many pages to come to this conclusion.

Some websites:

2304 BC +/- 11 years

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v4/i1/noahs_flood.asp

http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2010/04/01/noahs-flood-started-4300-years-ago-today/

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_year_was_the_Biblical_flood_of_Noah%27s_ark

And these are just a few examples of people explaining how they come to their date for the Flood.

Maybe the Frisian Almanac gives a source somewhere??

.

Edited October 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

I already told you this site, http://www.coven-of-cythrawl.com/frisians.htm , is not a real source. They used the OLB to create their website, jeesh.

I know it's not a 'real' source for anything but added it for interest.

If the Frisians did do what the OLB says they did and were a very old culture from at least 2000BC, what's to say they didn't build Stonehenge? We now know it's too early for Druids, who did build Stonehenge...I say, why not this Frisian culture with a Mother and connections to ancient Europe and sailing around the area of Britain for so long...the circle shape is like Atlantis and to me, it seems like it might be a stone circle structure, more like ones in Europe from the Iron Age, a judgement circle.

[Abramelin]

I know it's not a 'real' source for anything but added it for interest.

If the Frisians did do what the OLB says they did and were a very old culture from at least 2000BC, what's to say they didn't build Stonehenge? We now know it's too early for Druids, who did build Stonehenge...I say, why not this Frisian culture with a Mother and connections to ancient Europe and sailing around the area of Britain for so long...the circle shape is like Atlantis and to me, it seems like it might be a stone circle structure, more like ones in Europe from the Iron Age, a judgement circle.

Nowhwere in the OLB does it mention any building of any megalithic structure. I already mentioned that in this thread.

And Stonehenge is FAR older, like thousands of years older than that 2200 BC or whatever.

[The Puzzler]

Nowhwere in the OLB does it mention any building of any megalithic structure. I already mentioned that in this thread.

And Stonehenge is FAR older, like thousands of years older than that 2200 BC or whatever.

I know and I know.

It was a thought, never mind.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, here's an online copy of the Friesche Almanak, 1852: ~~LINK~~

From: http://www.wumkes.nl/index.php?cx=002262093444627817844%3Ae3jupftrnge&cof=FORID%3A11&q=zondvloed&sa=Zoek#830

"Sedert den Zondvloed 4045" >> 4045 - 1852 = 2193 BC.

Of course everyone forgets there's no Year 0, so it should be 2194 BC.

[Alewyn]

There is no such thing as "the" Dutch or "the" Frisians; people have always been coming and going.

The culture of the Netherlands suffers from what could be called multiple personality disorder or identity crisis. (Doesn't the whole world?)

I guess that more than 95% of the population has never even heard of the OLB.

The manuscript should be studied by an international, intercultural, multidisciplinary group of researchers.

I hereby volunteer.

The caveat here is “this debate”. You will notice I said “If this debate is anything to go by…”

There are only two persons from the Netherlands who are participating in this debate: you and Abramelin. You seem to be convinced that the OLB is authentic and Abramelin is convinced it is a hoax. Puzzler from Australia also appears to think that the OLB could well be true.

The “silence” I am referring to are those from the Netherlands who must be following this debate, but do not say anything.

Here I am, a foreigner, trying to convince the world that the Frisians in particular, and the Netherlands at large have a very rich and proud history. Yet, Abramelin disagrees with everything and anything I say and continuously ridicule every argument and all the evidence I give. The silent onlookers, for their part, don’t give a damn.

Just one example: The Middle Sea, the Balda Sea and the Aster Sea:

The evidence I gave in posts 1361 & 1369 shows unquestionably that the “Middel Sea” is the Mediterranean and the “Balda Sea” is the Baltic. Any rational person will agree to this. Abramelin, however, continue to say that the Middel Sea is somewhere near the Netherlands, without any proof but his “gut feel”. Yet, this lame reasoning goes unchallenged.

As for the Aster Sea, the OLB states very clearly:

1. They inhabited both banks and the full length of the Rhine river, i.e. right up to Switzerland,

2. Scandinavia was part of their country – they had a burghmaid in Gothahisburg (Gothenburg),

3. Spain (Cadiz) was part of their country – they had a burghmaid there,

4. They had factories in Italy,

5. Even Greece was part of their country before the 2193 BC disaster,

6. They had factories in North Africa,

7. They had a penal colony (and a burghmaid) in Britain, and

8. The 12 large rivers of Europe were all part of their land.

How on earth then can anybody say that their Eastern Boundary was the Baltic?

If I was trying to belittle the Dutch and the Frisians, I could have understood the response I am getting, but this is totally ridiculous.