[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

Cool, just got (back here, I should have said) here, will read your previous post properly too and this one.

I don't either. No earth tilt. Just a possible meteoric impact in a similar time frame to the 4.2ky Bond Event which may have exacerbated the effects of the impacts initial destruction, if fires burned from the impact, possible heating up at the same time would make the fires burn uncontrollably longer, spreading further...that sort of thing.

From what I've briefly read on Doggerland, it doesn't seem as though it needed an impact to have occurred anyway.

A recent hypothesis is that much of the remaining coastal land, already much reduced in size from the original land area, was inundated by a tsunami around 8200BP (6200BC), caused by a submarine landslide off the coast of Norway known as the Storegga Slide. This theory suggests "that the Storegga Slide tsunami would have had a catastrophic impact on the contemporary coastal Mesolithic population... Following the Storegga Slide tsunami, it appears, Britain finally became separated from the continent and, in cultural terms, the Mesolithic there goes its own way."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doggerland

If you read the last couple of pages of the Doggerland threaf, you will see maps that show that a fairly large area of Doggerland was still above sealevel at the moment the Storegga Slide took place at 6145 BC.

But yes, it is known that the submarine area west of Norway was very instable and could have slided on it's own without outside causes, although there are those who think an earthquake (maybe because of the isostatic rebound/adjustment) could have triggered the Storegga Slide.

The reason I started about a possible comet impact west of Norway is because I tried to explain the numerous cup-and-circle petroglyphs found around the North Sea, and the labyrinths and henges that came after them.

Well, read it for yourself.

[The Puzzler]

Here's a pdf you will like, Puzz (as fas as I know you didn't post it already):

ECHOES OF ANCIENT CATACLYSMS IN THE BALTIC SEA

And they use the 2000 BC date as most probable.

---

Another thing: I don't think an impact the size of Kaali could cause the earth's axis to tilt.

Nevertheless, it was very impressive and devastating.

.

Straight into the link it mentions about the Black Sea Flood c. 5400BC, that seems to me to be in possible relation to the date you are seeking. If a submarine landslide off Norway caused a huge tsunami that finished off Doggerland and the sea rose even higher, it makes sense it would rise into the Mediterranean too, possibly overflowing that way into the Black Sea.

Isostatic rebound would cause instability off Norway, all this toing and froing literally, water up, water down, land up, land down, it doesn't suprise me there would have been landslides generated.

Yes, I see the clear statement on the date, pretty much how it appeared when summarised to me. I don't think it would have been recalled as well so far back as 5500BC, and that 2000BC seems a logical date based on the myths coming into Greece in the forms they did, of particular ones to do with that area, I think whoever the Colchians were, they seem to be a city built on amber, which means they are a Nordic or Northern European Estonian people, Medea the sorceress sounds very shamanistic to me, a priestess, magician, if that was on the Black Sea, all well and good, there is evidence of early amber trade in Anatolia, the amber route.

It seems to me though that Colchis may have actually been the city the Greeks knew of as the city where amber and golden fleeces could be gained. You know, as odd as it seems, golden is like the sun or like amber, being a golden Sun (amber) city run by Helios, who is actually King Aeetes of Aia/Aea.

ai might be the beginning of the aiser word - an early Icelandic word for God. Since ais is plural.

That pdf says East to West.

What a nice pdf, it let's me copy/paste:

It is hard to imagine what went on in the minds of the humans who

saw flaming chunks of the sky fall to earth, heard the sonic boom of

the streaking fragments and the ear-splitting crash, felt the ground

shudder beneath their feet, and were engulfed by a great cloud of

dust and ash.

Trees, animals, and dwellings within a radius of 2–5km from the site would have been destroyed, a forest fire would

have been ignited, and the survivors would have had to run for

their lives to avoid asphyxiation from the vaporized and pulverized

matter and gases. This may have been the greatest meteorite impact

ever in a populated area. It was truly a fearsome and spectacular

event, more than enough to alter existing world-views and to

inspire new tales and songs.

The long-tailed fireball would have been brighter than the sun, visible

not just on Saaremaa but as far as 700 km (450 miles) away

(Meri 1984: 55; Tiirmaa 1994: 65). Included in the area of direct

observability are much of southern Finland and Karelia, the

Novgorod area of Russia, the Polish coast, and lower Sweden. To

the witnesses in this vast area, it would have appeared that a heavenly

body, perhaps the sun, was chased through the sky by something

long and fiery and was annihilated.

It has apparently been recorded in Finnish mythology as being seen from Finland at the time, I'm intrigued by that story as it tells how they got the fire from it and then we know how sacred the fire is in some of these old religions, eternal flames, central fires etc.

It throws my Atlantis out of the water at Plato's date, because to me, it has to be equated with the Phaethon event.

OK, sorry this is all very off-topic I spose. But I think it might explain the sinking of Atland so may help go towards proving the OLB somewhat and also shows a taking of the mythic stories into Greece from this area.

[Abramelin]

"Straight into the link it mentions about the Black Sea Flood c. 5400BC, that seems to me to be in possible relation to the date you are seeking. If a submarine landslide off Norway caused a huge tsunami that finished off Doggerland and the sea rose even higher, it makes sense it would rise into the Mediterranean too, possibly overflowing that way into the Black Sea."

Nah, that would mean a tsunami lasting for 7 centuries, lol.

And they don't turn corners.

No, I really don't think the flooding of Doggerland in 6145 BC and the Black Sea flood at 5400 BC had any relationship.

EDIT:

Talking about tsunamis..if the Kaali comet struck into the Baltic area, would a tsunami have been the result? And if so, is there proof on the surrounding shores of a deposit of sea sediment? If there is, and they date those layers, they will have a more exact date of the impact.

.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

If you read the last couple of pages of the Doggerland threaf, you will see maps that show that a fairly large area of Doggerland was still above sealevel at the moment the Storegga Slide took place at 6145 BC.

But yes, it is known that the submarine area west of Norway was very instable and could have slided on it's own without outside causes, although there are those who think an earthquake (maybe because of the isostatic rebound/adjustment) could have triggered the Storegga Slide.

The reason I started about a possible comet impact west of Norway is because I tried to explain the numerous cup-and-circle petroglyphs found around the North Sea, and the labyrinths and henges that came after them.

Well, read it for yourself.

Yep, I'm up on the circle structures that seem to show this ringed structure...didn't miss them.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:pGNCdxZhmf8J:www.gi.ee/~veski/Veski%2520Kaali%2520review.pdf+Kaali+Crater+Phaethon&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShUCZyKhqUNdRcJ4J-QDFT9ALBQwy2F0BnZjRsPvjDcvs4RNbfp0YtR-3bSvF1ntx2rU6tjB3DwNRNHkTOU6rapbmycG-o1L664uq3kPlwH4IpI7v05wBP9f-94hEo2-DD21Z81&sig=AHIEtbR-T1V-96RYb9sVHoSvB5nrb_RduA

The ancient Greek myth about Phaeton, the son of Sun, who, driving the solar chariot, lost the power over the horses and tumbled into the mysterious river of Eridanos, also leads one's thoughts to the Kaali catastrophe.

One day a young man stepped up to the God of Sun and claimed that he was Phaeton, the son of the God of Sun himself and an earthborn woman Klymene. The young man had doubted his high parentage and demanded affirmation. The God of Sun admitted it, and, as an affirmation, promised to carry out his fondest wish. The boy, who had often admired sun disc's journey across the firmament, uttered an unexpected wish: he wanted to drive the sun chariot across the sky.

Hearing that, the God of Sun regretted his easily given promise. He tried to persuade the youngster to wish for something else, but without success. The boy, taking no heed of the menaces he was told about, had his will. At first the drive came off quite well and Phaeton felt himself almost the lord of the sky. But then the things took a tragic turn: the spirited horses, feeling that the reins were in weak hands, became frisky and sheered from the right direction. The youngster lost power over the horses, who now dashed up to the skies, now turned right down to the Earth so that forests and fields there caught fire, rivers and fountains evaporated and dried out.

When the cries and lamentations from the Earth reached Jupiter's ears, the latter, in this emergency, seized his lightning bolts and punished the irresponsible charioteer. The blazing Phaeton shot through the air and fell on the Earth into the mysterious river of Eridanos, which no mortal eye has seen. Phaeton's sisters Heliads, daughters of the God of Sun, Helios, sought out their brother's grave to bemoan him there. The mourning sisters were turned into poplar trees on the banks of Eridanos.

http://muinas.struktuur.ee/projektid/ecp/kaali/en/html/legends.html

Did you see mention of the stone walls 2 metres high being built around the crater..?

I like your idea and think it fits with the circles that seem to relate to Kaali but seems the evidence for the circle shape preceeds Kaali, if dated at 2000BC.

The judgement stone circles of iron age Europe may be more relative as it has the fire in the middle of the circle, found throughout Europe.

I don't think a meteorite is out of the question for Doggerland c. 5500-6000BC as it was saying the evidence for that date could be from an older hit.

[The Puzzler]

"Straight into the link it mentions about the Black Sea Flood c. 5400BC, that seems to me to be in possible relation to the date you are seeking. If a submarine landslide off Norway caused a huge tsunami that finished off Doggerland and the sea rose even higher, it makes sense it would rise into the Mediterranean too, possibly overflowing that way into the Black Sea."

Nah, that would mean a tsunami lasting for 7 centuries, lol.

And they don't turn corners.

No, I really don't think the flooding of Doggerland in 6145 BC and the Black Sea flood at 5400 BC had any relationship.

EDIT:

Talking about tsunamis..if the Kaali comet struck into the Baltic area, would a tsunami have been the result? And if so, is there proof on the surrounding shores of a deposit of sea sediment? If there is, and they date those layers, they will have a more exact date of the impact.

.

I was thinking that, I'm checking tsunami damage in Gotland first, can you see anything of interest in this huge list?

http://www.gi.ee/~veski/Kirjandus.html

I just meant, in general, sea level would have risen, but maybe even the Danube flooded and water was carried in from that direction, eventually it flooded over and mixed with the saltier Mediterranean...anyway, just an off thought. 6145BC, ok, stamped it in now. But this sorta says 5000BC to me:

The Dogger Bank, which had been an upland area of Doggerland, is believed to have remained as an island until at least 5000BC.

Heligoland looks like it would have been part of it. I can see why this has intrigued you, maybe I will follow Doggerland up some more.

Iceland seems to have some sort of history I'm not seeing anywhere, the word ais was actually Icelandic.

[cormac mac airt]

No, I really don't think the flooding of Doggerland in 6145 BC and the Black Sea flood at 5400 BC had any relationship.

There wouldn't have been a relationship between the two of them anyway, Abramelin, as the 5400 BC date for the Black Sea Flood is incorrect.

Faunal and geochemical reconstructions converge to indicate a rapid transition from a fresh to brackish lake to the ocean-connected modern Black Sea around 9 400 years ago (~8 400 14C years BP; Ryan et al., 2003; Major et al., 2006; Hiscott et al., 2007; Bahr et al., 2008), although a weak or transitory inflow of Mediterranean waters before that time is still discussed (e.g., Hiscott et al., 2007). Water level variations accompanying these changes remain, however, contentious. An agreement exists that a lake highstand at ~20-30 m below current sea level (mbsl) was reached sometimes during the deglacial to the earliest Holocene, but the exact timing, cause, and temporal extent of this is disputed (e.g., Ryan et al., 2003; Hiscott et al., 2007; Lericolais et al., 2007a).

Was the Black Sea catastrophically flooded in the early Holocene?

cormac

[The Puzzler]

There wouldn't have been a relationship between the two of them anyway, Abramelin, as the 5400 BC date for the Black Sea Flood is incorrect.

Was the Black Sea catastrophically flooded in the early Holocene?

cormac

I think we are probably off topic enough already...

But it does show that it's likely if any impact is involved in the OLB my guess it's one right at home, the Kaali impact in Estonia.

Not your link, I mean the Kaali impact site.

Edited October 28, 2010 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

I think we are probably off topic enough already...

I seem to remember saying much the same previously, with you and Alewyn basically telling me, "SO...". There's no reason to pretend it's not OK now.

Regardless, the Kali impactor dating to the mid-first millenium BC would be irrelevant to the 2193 BC date.

The age of the Kaali impact event is placed between 800-400 b.c. based on radiocarbon dating of the peat enriched with impact ejecta in the Piila bog.

Source

There are two other impactor areas within relative proximity to the Kaalijarv Crater. These are the Ilumetsa Crater c.4600 BC in Estonia and the Morasco Craters c.3000 - 1500 BC in Poland.

cormac

[Otharus]

Most people (and many non-Dutch writers) base their theories about the OLB on English translations like Sandbach's.

Before I'm going to leave the forum for a while (going to travel for a few months), I have one more example of inadequate English (Sandbach) translation, and hopefully it will encourage some of you to have a look at the original text as it is really not that difficult to understand, specially if you know a bit of German, Dutch, Afrikaans, Flemmish and/or Scandinavian.

I have chosen the beginning of the first text that Adela's followers copied to save it from oblivion.

("Survivors" page 312, original OLB page 6 or on Tresoar type: pagina "8" ga)

First translation is by Sandbach (1876), second in italic is improvised by me.

Significant corrections are underlined.

THÀT WAS FRYA HIS DEEI

It was Frya's day,

It was Frya's day,

ÀND TO THEERE STONDE WAS.T VRLEEDEN SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JEER.

and seven times seven years had elapsed

and at that time seven times seven years had passed

THAT FÀSTA WAS ANSTÀLD AS FOLK.MODER NEEI FRYA.S JEERTA.

since Festa was appointed Volksmoeder by the desire of Frya.

since Festa was appointed Folkmother after Frya's heart.

THJU BURCH MEEDEEA.S.BLIK WAS REED

The citadel of Medeasblik was ready,

The burgh Medeasblik was ready,

ÀND EN FÁM WAS KEEREN.

and a Burgtmaagd was chosen.

and a Fam was chosen.

NW SKOLDE FÀSTA THJU NEEJA FODDIK VPSTEEKA

Festa was about to light her new lamp,

Now Festa should stick-up the new foddik,

ÀND THÁ THAT DEEN WAS AN ÀINWARDA FON THÀT FOLK

and when she had done so in the presence of all the people,

and when that was done in the presence of the folk,

THÁ HROP FRYA FON HIRA WÁK.STÀRE

Frya called from her watch-star,

Frya called from her wake-star,

SÁ THÀT ALLERA MANNALIK THÀT HEERA MACHTE.

so that every one could hear it:

so that all people might hear it:

FÀSTA. NIM THINRA STIFTE ÀND WRYT THA THINGA

"Festa, take your style and write the things,

"Festa, take your style and write the things,

THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.

that I may not speak."

that I was not allowed to say earlier."

FÀSTA DEEDE ALSA HJA BODEN WÀRTH.

Festa did as she was bid,

Festa did as she was ordered,

SÁ SEND WY FRYA.S BÀRN.A VSA FORMA SKEEDNISE KEEMEN.

and thus we became Frya's children, and our earliest history began.

so we Frya's bern have recieved our first history.

Short interpretation/ food for discussion:

Note that Frya supposedly was not allowed to speak about it during her reign.

What was so taboo about the "Forma Skeednise"?

Festa/ Vesta wrote it down. Did she make it up?

Did she 'channel' it as 'New-agers' would call it today?

This inspires me to make one critical note about Alewyn's book.

In his introduction he writes (p.16):

"Today it seems as if the book only has value for pagan and occult groups - in stark contrast to the intentions and beliefs of the original authors."

First, I doubt if it is true that mostly 'pagan and occult groups' are interested and wonder why he thinks this is so.

Second, a Folkmother hearing the voice of her dead predecessor and writing down what she is 'told', to me sounds like something that we would call an 'occult' practice.

Finally, for those who like maps, two goodies (scanned from "Graven van Holland" by de Boer and Cordfunke):

Thanks all for the (often) inspiring discussions and good luck truth-seeking.

I'll be back.

Edited October 28, 2010 by Otharus

[The Puzzler]

I seem to remember saying much the same previously, with you and Alewyn basically telling me, "SO...". There's no reason to pretend it's not OK now.

cormac

lol can't you see my sarcasm?

I like to throw things back, I can't help it.

I'm not sure if you saw all the info Abe and I just gave on dating but 2000BC is the date they think suits best. 700BC is when they find habitation inside the crater itself.

It's actually very relevant.

Ilumetsa might be one more relevant to Abe and Doggerland. Estimated at around 4600BC. Might be the one that hit earlier and showed the (old)mixed result for Kaali.

Plato does tell us the Phaethon event seems to be something that comes around after long periods - as though it was recognised that it had happened prior to "Phaethon"...that this also hit in Estonia makes me think they may have known about the Ilumetsa one too in their past, maybe.

I can imagine dating craters is pretty tricky from what I've picked up.

Ilumetsa

The crater is partly filled with a thin layer of gyttja and peat up to 2 m thick. Radiocarbon ages of 6030 ± 100 (TA-310) and 5910 ± 100 (TA-725) years B.P. from the lowermost organic layer and palynological evidence suggest that the age of the impact was ∼6000 14C years B.P. The Sügavhaud crater has a diameter of 50 m at the top of the rim and is 4.5 m deep. Organic matter on the bottom of the crater is absent. As precise age determination of the Ilumetsa craters by direct dating methods has proved inconclusive, we proposed a method of geological correlation which is based on the occurrence of impact spherules in lake and bog sediments around the crater field. Radiocarbon dating of samples from a peat layer with glassy spherules of impact origin in the Meenikunno Bog, 6 km southwest of the Ilumetsa crater field, yielded the ages of 6542 ± 50 (Tln-2214) for the depth interval 5.6–5.7 m and 6697 ± 50 (Tln-2316) years B.P. for the depth interval 5.7–5.8 m. These dates suggest that the Ilumetsa craters were formed ∼6600 years ago.

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1945-5100.2001.tb01842.x/abstract

Possible 4600BC date for Ilumetsa, never seen it's dating as low as 2000BC.

[The Puzzler]

Got any links or info on Morasco, can't find one search link for it.

[The Puzzler]

Bye for a while then Otharus, if this thread has slacked up when you get back, please be sure to add to it again so we can continue this further with your participation. )

[cormac mac airt]

Got any links or info on Morasco, can't find one search link for it.

14C and TL DATING AS A METHOD OF ESTABLISHING THE ORIGIN OF KETTLE-LIKE HOLLOWS

Slight spelling error on my part. Moras(K)o. You can also find informaton in the Earth Impact Database.

I have to admit to not having looked into this particular site much until now but either prior link for the Kaali Crater, yours or mine, would appear to be in error AND NEITHER are relevant to an alleged 2193 BC date.

AMS dating of terrestrial macrofossils from the

deepest part of the meteorite impact crater-lake at

Kaali, island of Saaremaa, Estonia places the age of

the impact at 1690–1510 B.C. The age agrees with

previous research inside the crater, but is about 1000

years older than revealed from impact marker-horizon

radiocarbon dating in a contemporaneous peat sequence,

yet those two signatures reflect the same impact

event. The microspherules discovered by Raukas

et al. (1995) could indicate another much older event

not connected with the Kaali impact.

The age of the Kaali meteorite craters and the effect of the impact on the environment and man: evidence from inside the Kaali craters, island of Saaremaa, Estonia

cormac

Edited October 29, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

Researching Kaali crater too my mind to another Kaali name, that of Kali.

So, what's Kali about, the description sounds like what could be construed as aimpact event imo. Not directly but it doesn't seem to NOT say it...the imagery to me sounds similar - eternal energy, black, death, annihilation...

Kālī (Sanskrit: काली, IPA: [kɑːliː]; Bengali: কালী), also known as Kalika (Bengali: কালিকা, Kālikā), is the Hindu goddess associated with eternal energy. The name Kali comes from kāla, which means black, time, death, lord of death, Shiva. Kali means "the black one". Since Shiva is called Kāla - the eternal time, Kālī, his consort, also means "the Time" or "Death" (as in time has come). Hence, Kali is considered the goddess of time and change. Although sometimes presented as dark and violent, her earliest incarnation as a figure of annihilation still has some influence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

Edit for link.

Edited October 29, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Bye for a while then Otharus, if this thread has slacked up when you get back, please be sure to add to it again so we can continue this further with your participation.

[The Puzzler]

14C and TL DATING AS A METHOD OF ESTABLISHING THE ORIGIN OF KETTLE-LIKE HOLLOWS

Slight spelling error on my part. Moras(K)o. You can also find informaton in the Earth Impact Database.

I have to admit to not having looked into this particular site much until now but either prior link for the Kaali Crater, yours or mine, would appear to be in error AND NEITHER are relevant to an alleged 2193 BC date.

The age of the Kaali meteorite craters and the effect of the impact on the environment and man: evidence from inside the Kaali craters, island of Saaremaa, Estonia

cormac

Yep, I did mention how this date seemed to co-incide with the date of Thera, give or take a few years. (1690-1510BC). The traditional timeframe is 2000BC according to the Estonians themselves and pollen data.

http://books.google....0crater&f=false

Page 349 it starts as this: Traditionally, in Estonia the age of the impact is placed at some 4000 yr BP.

The whole research ends with this:

"At least 3390+_35 years old, however, actually they should be much older."

then

This link Abe, I think was the one you gave, I had so many up I forget, it says: page 270 "Possibly 1690BC - 1510BC."

Some dates given earlier: (from Abe's post)

"The precise age the impact event remains controversial:

About 4000 BP (Before the present), based on recent radiocarbon - and pollen-dating of sediments infilling the main crater (Saarse et al., 1991);

Either 370 to 400 BCE (Before the Common Era) (Rassmussen et al., 2000), or up to

7600 BP (Raukas, 1997, 2000), according to indirect dating from surrounding mire deposits."

Again from Abe's link And they use the 2000 BC date as most probable.

All those are from links already posted, just giving a summary of main times.

Will check out the Morasko link some more, thanks.

[cormac mac airt]

Yep, I did mention how this date seemed to co-incide with the date of Thera, give or take a few years. (1690-1510BC).

This is the kind of generalized statement I have to take exception to. A timeframe of 180 years is not the same as 'a few years'. But yes, the current dating of Thera's eruption, c.1613 +/- 10 years BC, does fall roughly in the middle of this timeframe.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

This is the kind of generalized statement I have to take exception to. A timeframe of 180 years is not the same as 'a few years'. But yes, the current dating of Thera's eruption, c.1613 +/- 10 years BC, does fall roughly in the middle of this timeframe.

cormac

Yeah, sorry, sometimes precise dates escape me unless I relook them up every 5 minutes.

I tell you though, this date seems a possibility if I escape from the OLB for a moment. (The 180 year timeframe)

According to Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, "...in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pha%C3%ABton

So, when was that? Crotopus is hard to date but he's early, prior to the Trojan War - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crotopus

According to the Parian Chronicle it was:

1529/8BC 4) From when there was a flood in the time of Deucalion, and Deucalion fled the waters from Lycoreia to Athens to [Cranaos] and [founded the temple of Olympian] Zeu[s, and] made offerings for his deliverance, 1265 years, when Cranaos was king of Athens.

http://www.ashmolean.museum/ash/faqs/q004/q004008.html

You say: current dating of Thera's eruption, c.1613 +/- 10 years BC.

Wiki gives us:

For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at c. 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of an olive tree buried beneath a lava flow from the volcano indicate that the eruption occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE with a 95% degree of probability (Friedrich, Kromer, Friedrich, Heinemeier, Pfeiffer, Talamo, Science, 2006).

Another method used to establish the date of eruption is tree-ring dating. Tree-ring data has shown that a large event interfering with normal tree growth in North America occurred during 1629-1628 BCE.[31] Evidence of a climatic event around 1628 BCE has been found in studies of growth depression of European oaks in Ireland and in Sweden.[32] Bristlecone pine frost rings also indicate a date of 1627.[33][34] Procedural changes in how ice cores are interpreted would bring that data more in line with the dendrochronological numbers.[35]

Although radiocarbon consistently indicates a 1600 BCE eruption dating, some archeologists still believe that the date is contradicted by findings in Egyptian and Theran excavations. For example, buried Egyptian and Cypriot pottery found on Thera were dated to a later period than the radiometric dates for the eruption, and, since the conventional Egyptian chronology has been established by numerous archaeological studies, the exact date of the eruption remains controversial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption

Problems such as the one I highlighted might mean the dates are a a bit out anyway...

1628BC by the affected tree rings in Sweden and Europe might be a clue to the Kaali impact.

Date given as one possible for Kaali craters: (1690-1510BC).

In relation to the OLB though and the mention of Cecrops timeframe:

1582/1BC 1) From when Cecrops became king of Athens and the place was called Cecropia, which had previously been called Actica from Actaeon who was native there, 1318 years.

1690-1520 BC - Kaali

1613+/- 10yrs BC - Thera For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at c. 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young.

1529 BC - Deucalion

1529 era BC - Phaethon

[cormac mac airt]

You say: current dating of Thera's eruption, c.1613 +/- 10 years BC.

I've posted it several times and in threads you've been in, it's from here:

Two olive branches buried by a Minoan-era eruption of the volcano on the island of Thera (modern-day Santorini) have enabled precise radiocarbon dating of the catastrophe to 1613 BC, with an error margin of plus or minus 10 years, according to two researchers who presented conclusions of their previously published research during an event on Tuesday at the Danish Archaeological Institute of Athens.

Source

Wiki can be useful at times, but is just as often wrong as it is right.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I've posted it several times and in threads you've been in, it's from here:

Source

Wiki can be useful at times, but is just as often wrong as it is right.

cormac

No, Wiki wasn't wrong, it agreed with this.

Despite this evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at c. 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of an olive tree buried beneath a lava flow from the volcano indicate that the eruption occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE with a 95% degree of probability (Friedrich, Kromer, Friedrich, Heinemeier, Pfeiffer, Talamo, Science, 2006).

Plus or minus 10 years on 1613BC is 1623-1603BC.

[cormac mac airt]

No, Wiki wasn't wrong, it agreed with this.

Despite this evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at c. 1500 BCE, but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of an olive tree buried beneath a lava flow from the volcano indicate that the eruption occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE with a 95% degree of probability (Friedrich, Kromer, Friedrich, Heinemeier, Pfeiffer, Talamo, Science, 2006).

Plus or minus 10 years on 1613BC is 1623-1603BC.

Actually, for quite a while it was given as 1550, not 1500 contrary to Wiki. Not that it matters any at this point. In any case this date also has nothing to do with any alleged events c.2193 BC.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Before I'm going to leave the forum for a while (going to travel for a few months), I have one more example of inadequate English (Sandbach) translation, and hopefully it will encourage some of you to have a look at the original text as it is really not that difficult to understand, specially if you know a bit of German, Dutch, Afrikaans, Flemmish and/or Scandinavian.

I have chosen the beginning of the first text that Adela's followers copied to save it from oblivion.

("Survivors" page 312, original OLB page 6 or on Tresoar type: pagina "8" ga)

First translation is by Sandbach (1876), second in italic is improvised by me.

Significant corrections are underlined.

THÀT WAS FRYA HIS DEEI

It was Frya's day,

It was Frya's day,

ÀND TO THEERE STONDE WAS.T VRLEEDEN SJVGUN WÁRA SJVGUN JEER.

and seven times seven years had elapsed

and at that time seven times seven years had passed

THAT FÀSTA WAS ANSTÀLD AS FOLK.MODER NEEI FRYA.S JEERTA.

since Festa was appointed Volksmoeder by the desire of Frya.

since Festa was appointed Folkmother after Frya's heart.

THJU BURCH MEEDEEA.S.BLIK WAS REED

The citadel of Medeasblik was ready,

The burgh Medeasblik was ready,

ÀND EN FÁM WAS KEEREN.

and a Burgtmaagd was chosen.

and a Fam was chosen.

NW SKOLDE FÀSTA THJU NEEJA FODDIK VPSTEEKA

Festa was about to light her new lamp,

Now Festa should stick-up the new foddik,

ÀND THÁ THAT DEEN WAS AN ÀINWARDA FON THÀT FOLK

and when she had done so in the presence of all the people,

and when that was done in the presence of the folk,

THÁ HROP FRYA FON HIRA WÁK.STÀRE

Frya called from her watch-star,

Frya called from her wake-star,

SÁ THÀT ALLERA MANNALIK THÀT HEERA MACHTE.

so that every one could hear it:

so that all people might hear it:

FÀSTA. NIM THINRA STIFTE ÀND WRYT THA THINGA

"Festa, take your style and write the things,

"Festa, take your style and write the things,

THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.

that I may not speak."

that I was not allowed to say earlier."

FÀSTA DEEDE ALSA HJA BODEN WÀRTH.

Festa did as she was bid,

Festa did as she was ordered,

SÁ SEND WY FRYA.S BÀRN.A VSA FORMA SKEEDNISE KEEMEN.

and thus we became Frya's children, and our earliest history began.

so we Frya's bern have recieved our first history.

Short interpretation/ food for discussion:

Note that Frya supposedly was not allowed to speak about it during her reign.

What was so taboo about the "Forma Skeednise"?

Festa/ Vesta wrote it down. Did she make it up?

Did she 'channel' it as 'New-agers' would call it today?

This inspires me to make one critical note about Alewyn's book.

In his introduction he writes (p.16):

"Today it seems as if the book only has value for pagan and occult groups - in stark contrast to the intentions and beliefs of the original authors."

First, I doubt if it is true that mostly 'pagan and occult groups' are interested and wonder why he thinks this is so.

Second, a Folkmother hearing the voice of her dead predecessor and writing down what she is 'told', to me sounds like something that we would call an 'occult' practice.

Finally, for those who like maps, two goodies (scanned from "Graven van Holland" by de Boer and Cordfunke):

Thanks all for the (often) inspiring discussions and good luck truth-seeking.

I'll be back.

Is it just me, or am I the only one who really read what Otharus posted??

He suggests, based on his alternative (and better) translation, that..

"Short interpretation/ food for discussion:

Note that Frya supposedly was not allowed to speak about it during her reign.

What was so taboo about the "Forma Skeednise"?

Festa/ Vesta wrote it down. Did she make it up?

Did she 'channel' it as 'New-agers' would call it today?"

... the info we read in the OLB is part 'made-up' or channeled, Cayce style.

Otharus, I found something about those new pagans (wait for edit), a very interesting pdf.

===

Another thing: maybe we all are too focussed on finding some major impact around 2200 BC. Does the OLB actually tell us 'something fell out of the skies"??

+++++++

EDIT:

Investigations into the Oera Linda Book

by Mark Puryear

" (...) This is not to say that I, like Mr. Pierce, believe that all or even most of O.L.B represents

authentic Northern European beliefs and histories. In fact, as it will be shown throughout

these investigations, much of this work is a jumbled mess of different beliefs and stories

that are better represented by the more detailed versions found elsewhere, namely

Scandinavia, Germany and Saxony. Though there should not be any doubt as to the

correctness of Mr. Pierce's observation on the advanced North European culture (which

archaeology and other sciences have confirmed) we have reason to believe that this book

is the result of one author's collections, perhaps a collector of history and lore, rather than

the several "Oera Lindas" mentioned therein. Most likely it is either the product Hiddo

oera Linda, who would thus have covered his tracks in the letter to his son Okke (pg. 1)

byexplaining how the original manuscript was damaged in a flood so he had to

"transcribe it on foreign paper"; or it is the product of Liko oviro Linda, who obviously

had some animosity towards the Christian church and sought to keep the work out of

their hands. It is possible that this person may have been some sort of pagan revivalist. (...) "

Download the pdf here:

http://www.norroena.org/articles.html

(or read it here: http://traditionandrevolution.freeforums.org/investigations-into-oera-linda-book-by-mark-puryear-t1644.html )

.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Actually, for quite a while it was given as 1550, not 1500 contrary to Wiki. Not that it matters any at this point. In any case this date also has nothing to do with any alleged events c.2193 BC.

cormac

True, ok, off Thera.

[The Puzzler]

Is it just me, or am I the only one who really read what Otharus posted??

He suggests, based on his alternative (and better) translation, that..

... the info we read in the OLB is part 'made-up' or channeled, Cayce style.

.

I read it but to me it didn't seem to have much relevance to anything I knew about.

It seems to make sense to me that since Frya was gone and at her watch star, that she can't speak, more than, wasn't allowed to say.

FÀSTA. NIM THINRA STIFTE ÀND WRYT THA THINGA

"Festa, take your style and write the things,

"Festa, take your style and write the things,

THEER IK EER NAVT SEGSA NE MACHTE.

that I may not speak."

that I was not allowed to say earlier."

To me, it's like she can't speak them because she's gone.

I really don't know what the gist of this is about really so that's why I didn't comment on it.

[Abramelin]

I was thinking that, I'm checking tsunami damage in Gotland first, can you see anything of interest in this huge list?

http://www.gi.ee/~veski/Kirjandus.html

Yes, I got something from that big list, but you have posted about it already:

Siim Veski·Atko Heinsalu· ValterLang·

The age of the Kaali meteorite craters and the effect

of the impact on the environment and man:

evidence from inside the Kaalicraters, island of Saaremaa, Estonia

Received: 30 October 2003/Accepted: 6June2004/ Published online: 17July2004

Conclusions

1.AMS dating of terrestrial macrofossils from the

deepest part of the meteorite impact crater-lake at

Kaali, island of Saaremaa, Estonia places the age of

the impact at 1690 - 1510 B.C. The age agrees with

previous research inside the crater, but is about 1000

years older than revealed from impact marker-horizon

radiocarbon dating in a contemporaneous peat se-

quence, yet those two signatures reflect the same im-

pactevent. Themicrospherules discovered by Raukas

et al.(1995) could indicate another much older event

2.Chemical, pollen and diatom analyses from the bottom

sediments of Kaalij

sedimentation of loose crushed dolomite debris took

place in a shallow lake and that there seem to be no

hiatuses in the sedimentation. Consequently the low-

er most sediment contact of Kaalij

radiocarbon dating of the impact event.

3.Biostratigraphic material is difficult to interprete in

terms of impact age,but pollen grains of Secale and

Picea in the bottom sediments of Kaalij

that the impact was not earlier than 3800 B.C.

4.Archaeological evidence on the crater slopes points to

ceremonial activity since 700-200 B.C., and the

structure of the main impact crater is mimicked in

nearby archaeological sites. Some other evidence as

well points towards the importance of meteorite im-

pacts to prehistoric societies.

not connected with the Kaali impact.

http://www.gi.ee/~veski/10915.pdf

"Themicrospherules discovered by Raukas et al.(1995) could indicate another much older event"...

If a much older event happened nearby, then we should maybe start looking for a comet swarm that showed up in the solar system with some kind of regular and stable orbit.

I think Cormac already posted about other, nearby impacts.

EDIT:

Yes he did:

"There are two other impactor areas within relative proximity to the Kaalijarv Crater. These are the Ilumetsa Crater c.4600 BC in Estonia and the Morasco Craters c.3000 - 1500 BC in Poland.

cormac"

It suggests an orbit of 1500 years: 1500 BC - 3000 BC - 4600 BC - 6100 BC?? - 7600 BC.

Hmm..

.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Abramelin