[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

Also interesting speculation Slim on Smurfs. Proof would be a breakthrough.

The Smurfs as the people of the OLB....

Now THAT would tickle people's interest, LOL.

"Okko, my smurf"........

[Abramelin]

My ex was around, with her bf.

Jesus, you can better have the devil or the Old Testament Jehovah around.

You will only have to deal with earthquakes and plagues and your family killed.

Having your drunk ex on a visit is worse than hell.

And I live in the same building as she does.

____

Sorry, not very much on topic.

But hell, to me is equal to your ex visiting you with her latest bf - her bf being very 'understanding' of course - screaming in your face why she doesnt like you.

And whispering in your ear one sec later why she is still in love with you..... all that during the time her bf is on my internet in another room in my house chatting with another online gf, a woman apparently more understanding than his present gf will ever be.

Some will understand why I spend so much time discussing the OLB....... It's much better to waste my time on a historical puzzle than to confront a real time witch (and 'witch' just differs one character from the word I really wanted to use)

Every guy will think this is hilarious, and I would do too... if I was not in his shoes.

But that's only true and romantic and hilarious untill you experience this bull yourself.

.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

The Smurfs as the people of the OLB....

Etymology of "Smurf":

SE.MORFA = to shape oneself (see old-Greek MORPHE) = to evolve?

Μορφεύς, Morpheus = shaper (of dreams)

Compare "Sax":

SE.AXA = to split oneself (or eachother?)

Edited November 20, 2010 by Otharus

[The Puzzler]

--

And oh irony... Alewyn ends the last chapter of his book (page 279) with a quote from no one else but Joost Halbertsma, "Bread, butter and green cheese...".

.

A quote by Helbertsma? Isn't it an old Frisian rhyme?...

One rhyme demonstrates the palpable similarity between Frisian and English: "Butter, bread, and green cheese is good English and good Fries," which is pronounced more or less the same in both languages (Frisian: "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk.")

Edit: forgot link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_languages

Edited November 20, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

A citadel was not just a fortress, it was a star-shaped fortress protecting a city. You have Alewyn's book, so you will know what I mean.

If anything, they could be nothing but the socalled 'ringwalburchten', but they are from lot more recent times (800 - 1000 AD) and circular. Wicker work or not, they know how these ringwalburghten looked like, and some were 1500 years old.

And why do you skip past my remark about megaliths?

The Frya people surely must not only have known about them, but also have built them.

.

In Finland, there is a wooden fortress, dated to 1500BC possibly.

Old Castle of Lieto (Finnish: Liedon Vanhalinna) is a formerly fortified hill in Lieto, Finland. The original name of the castle is not known. According to excavations, the castle has been in use in the Late Bronze Age (1500–500 BCE), in Middle Iron Age (500–700 CE, contested) and in the Middle Ages up to the end of the 14th century, when it was replaced by the "new castle" in Turku harbour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Castle_of_Lieto

The point is, it's said that most of the area has been flooded, not to mention ransacked at the time of the conquests and many of these old wooden citadels/fortresses may never be found.

I'll agree though the writing, the citadels and the iron do seem too early mentioned in it. Even though I think it's possible that the 3 of them could, possibly, have left no trace of themselves by various means.

I might not have taken much notice of the megaliths thing. What was it about?

[SlimJim22]

Jim, it wasn't me who called it the Nordic Bible, that was Wirth.

Well, what is our Bible (the Old Testament) all about..? It's about a chosen people and their religion, it's about how superior their ethics and culture was compared to those of other people, and so on, and so on.

.

I wasn't criticizing at all. I can see the comparison. The OT is seemingly propaganda as much as it is Holy. The OLB strikes me as more propaganda and less Holy but that could be disputed. By Holy I mean sacred rather than full of unsubstantiated claims but that term could be applied to both the texts.

Substantiate my claim that Phrygians were smurfs rather than Frisian. Is Freya the only thing that links the two? It works for me on the Khazar connection if they are one and the same people moving west. Also, there is legend that Phrygians were refugees, possibly from Egypt or Libya who moved into Anatolia. The Nile floods every year but some times it was catastrophic to the people and villages. Canopus and Heraleion being lost but too late for a connection to the OLB. Could be that there was another land mass further on that was lost to erosion at an earlier date.

The phrygian cap is related to the pointed hats. Santa and elves, Peter Pan, Robin Hood, Attis and Mithras wore the phrygian variety and pointed hats are worn born by wizards, witches, dunces and the KKK.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointed_hat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap

Another name for Phrygian caps was liberty caps because they were worn by released slaves. Incidentally, magic mushrooms can also go under the name liberty caps. Did this inspire the thinking of the creators of the smurfs I wonder?

http://www.worldsstrangest.com/mental-floss/the-quick-10-10-smurfy-smurfs-facts/

The World Record for People Dressed as Smurfs (I can’t shake the feeling that the plural should be Smurves. I know. So wrong.) was set just this year in Swansea, Wales. More than 2,500 people crammed into a nightclub dressed in blue and white and weren’t allowed to have any natural skin showing in order to count toward the record.

My home town but sadly I was not there and just learnt of this fantastic claim to fame.

I'm loving your work there Otharus. Do you mind if I borrow that?

[Abramelin]

A quote by Helbertsma? Isn't it an old Frisian rhyme?...

One rhyme demonstrates the palpable similarity between Frisian and English: "Butter, bread, and green cheese is good English and good Fries," which is pronounced more or less the same in both languages (Frisian: "Bûter, brea, en griene tsiis is goed Ingelsk en goed Frysk.")

Edit: forgot link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_languages

Yes, you are right Puzz.

I must have misread the pdf I got it from, the same pdf I got Halbertsma's "oudlanders" from.

According to legend is was a saying created by Great Pier (Grutte Pier) in the 16th century:

"Butter, rye bread and green cheese, whoever can't say that is no genuine Frisian") was used, according to legend, by the 16th century Frisian freedom fighter Pier Gerlofs Donia as a shibboleth that he forced his captives to repeat to distinguish Frisians from Dutch and Low Germans).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language

Gjin oprjuchte Fries

EÈn verkeerde klinker kan dodelijk zijn. Het bekendste zinnetje in het Fries

is waarschijnlijk: B°ter, brea en griene tsiis, wa dat net sizze kin is gjin oprjuchte

Fries `Boter, brood en groene kaas, wie dat niet kan zeggen is geen oprechte

Fries'. In de zestiende eeuw zou de beroemde Grutte Pier dit zinnetje

hebben gebruikt om Friezen en niet-Friezen te scheiden. Iedereen die de

klinkers niet helemaal zuiver genoeg uitsprak werd in de Zuiderzee

verdronken.

http://www.vanoostendorp.nl/linguist/boterbrood.pdf

[Abramelin]

In Finland, there is a wooden fortress, dated to 1500BC possibly.

Old Castle of Lieto (Finnish: Liedon Vanhalinna) is a formerly fortified hill in Lieto, Finland. The original name of the castle is not known. According to excavations, the castle has been in use in the Late Bronze Age (1500–500 BCE), in Middle Iron Age (500–700 CE, contested) and in the Middle Ages up to the end of the 14th century, when it was replaced by the "new castle" in Turku harbour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Castle_of_Lieto

The point is, it's said that most of the area has been flooded, not to mention ransacked at the time of the conquests and many of these old wooden citadels/fortresses may never be found.

I'll agree though the writing, the citadels and the iron do seem too early mentioned in it. Even though I think it's possible that the 3 of them could, possibly, have left no trace of themselves by various means.

I might not have taken much notice of the megaliths thing. What was it about?

The point about the megalithic structures in Europe was that many were also built after, say, 2000 BC. Most were constructed before that date. If the story about the Frya is true, then they could have been present during the construction of some, or even be the ones responsible for the construction.

[The Puzzler]

The point about the megalithic structures in Europe was that many were also built after, say, 2000 BC. Most were constructed before that date. If the story about the Frya is true, then they could have been present during the construction of some, or even be the ones responsible for the construction.

I have been reading all night Prehistoric Heritage again and it has so many images of rock art in it. Lots of them seem to have some things in common, the Mother and the Sun, there is lots of rocks with the picture of a sun on it, heaps with daggers, sleds.

Frya may have been the original Mother Goddess even. She goes to a watch star, so some may have seen her then as a Mother, in the stars, a Goddess. It seems to me the OLB does not say Frya's people have Gods or even Goddesses, but that the priest created Gods and Goddesses out of the real people they encountered, such as Minerva and Wodin.

I think the megalithic structures seem to be more built by people who were practising rites, maybe priestly castes, they said once Druids built Stonehenge and then tossed it out as Druids came way later than Stonehenge, but did they really, were the Druids before they became Druids, priests of a Mother Goddess, who worshipped cows with horns, who knew magic and practised bloody rituals..kept track of the movements of the Heavens and kept everyone in subjugation by these religious practices?

All hard to say really.

[The Puzzler]

Some reading, I'm off to bed, so late.

The Nordish Megalithic Culture

by

Karl Earlson

There exists a common misconception about the Megalithic culture of Northern Europe, which states that it was introduced through external influences, by a "Megalithic Race" of Mediterranean origins. However, recent studies, as well as older works that examined the racial ancestry of the Megalith builders, clearly demonstrate that this civilization was Nordish in character.

The Megaliths were thought to be southern in origin, largely because of the ex oriente lux theory (from the east comes the light), which proclaimed that the indigenous peoples of Northern Europe were too primitive to forge their own creations, and that they required the aid of other peoples. In addition to this, British authors in particular, were keen to see the Megaliths as "Mediterranean" because it was believed that only this race was present in Britain, during the period that the Megaliths were thought to have been constructed. Finally, the Marxist archaeological theories of the British scholar Childe, led some to think that the Megaliths were "Iberian" in origin, and that most culture had "radiated" into Europe from the east and south. Childe believed that the Megaliths of Northern Europe were nothing more than "degenerate" copies of Mediterranean and Near Eastern monumental architecture.[1]

In the 1950s, the discoveries of the American scientist W. F. Libby, which were published in his book Radiocarbon Dating (Chicago, 1955), helped historians to determine the antiquity of various cultures more precisely. Firstly, Libby was able to demonstrate that the Megaliths of Northern Europe were far older than the Pyramids, and other stone buildings in the Mediterranean. This disproved the argument that "Southerners" were the first to build in stone, and therefore, that they had "diffused" the knowledge of monumental architecture to the peoples of the north. Secondly, Libby showed that the oldest Megaliths were those in Northern Europe. He estimated that the Megalithic monuments of France were begun around 4500 B.C. The researches of the British archaeologist Renfrew, have shown that the Megaliths were produced by indigenous North European cultures, and that there was a long history of construction on the sites where Megaliths were subsequently built. Many of Childe's Marxist theories were demolished by radiocarbon dating, and feeling disillusioned as a result, he committed suicide in 1957. At this point, it would be germane to remember that most of Coon's historical reconstructions were based on Childe's work, and that as Childe's theories collapse, so do certain aspects of Coon's work, most notably his belief that the Megalith builders were "Atlanto-Mediterranean" in race.[2]

A now largely forgotten and neglected theory, is that of a northern origin for the Megaliths. This idea was largely formulated by French scholars, at the end of the 19th Century, and was later developed by German and Scandinavian authors, in the 20th Century. These writers observed that in the south, there was clearly a link between blonds and the Megaliths. The blond Riffian Berbers of Morocco, and the blond Kabyles of Algeria, were associated with the Megaliths of North Africa. The blond Libyans of antiquity appeared at about the same time that these monuments were constructed. Similarly, the blond Amorites of ancient Palestine, were linked to the Megaliths which are found there. Equally, the blond Guanches of the Canary Islands, seem to have produced their own stone buildings. However, at the same time, apart from the British Isles, the north did not possess sizeable Mediterranean populations, that could explain the allegedly "southern" origins of the Megaliths.[3]

Furthermore, some archaeologists have noticed that there are distinct links between the various Megalithic sites and their uniform culture. Most of these links can be traced back to the north, particularly the love of amber, which at that time could only be obtained from Northern Europe. Many of the earliest examples of Megalithic construction appear in the north, as well as the complete evolution of the various types of complex building methods. One of the most recent expositions on the cultural unity of the Megalith builders, is the work of the Austrian historian Spanuth, who has also presented the evidence in favor of a northern origin for this same culture.[4]

In addition to this, racial studies have demonstrated that the Megalith builders were racially Nordish. In Germany and Scandinavia, numerous physical anthropologists examined the remains that have been discovered in the Megalithic tombs. Scholars such as Schliz, Rydbeck, Scheidt, Nielsen, Retzius, Fürst and Saller, have shown that the Megalith builders were largely mixed, Crô-Magnon/Nordic types, with a small brachycephalic element, mostly Borreby in type, with some round-headed Alpines. (Note: The "Crô-Magnon" type referred to, is the equivalent of Coon/McCulloch's "Brünn" subrace, and Günther's Phalian race.[5]) Of course, the racial elements differed from nation to nation, including the indigenous folk of the various regions, but the Brünn/Nordic element appears to remain a constant factor throughout.[6]

In Britain, the Long Barrow People were largely responsible for the Megaliths. The British anthropologist Fleure, noted that their skulls had broad-brows, with heavy brow-ridges, low and broad orbits, sloping foreheads, long, narrow faces, narrow noses, prominent chins, and dolichocephalic crania, with large cranial capacities. He considered them to be immigrants from North-West Europe.[7]

When Coon accepted the existence of a "Megalithic Race" he was forced to depict a type with "Mediterranean" facial features which are more Nordic than anything else. In several pictorial instances of his "Megalithic" type, Coon refers to the blue eyes of the individuals depicted, as an "aberrant feature" and he often notes other "Nordic" characteristics, particularly tall stature.[8] It may be objected to, that the Nordic and Mediterranean subraces are very similar, from a skeletal point of view, and differ mostly in their pigmentation. However, it would appear that the Megalith builders were largely fair-haired. J. B. Davis and J. Thurnam, in their Crania Britannica (London, 1865), noted that locks of hair which were discovered in Long Barrow tombs, preserved within sealed boxes, were often blond or red in color. Various German and Scandinavian authors observed that the remains of hair they discovered in Megalithic tombs, were of a blond or reddish-blond hue. Similarly, the existence of ancient blonds and redheads in the Canary Islands, the Levant and North Africa, is well attested to. Thus, we find a combination of blond and red hair, with Brünn/Nordic skeletal features.[9]

It should also not be forgotten that by the time the later stages of Stonehenge were being constructed, the Nordic Battle-Axe and Borreby Bell Beaker peoples were settling in the area, and had themselves buried in close proximity to the monument. They also played a considerable part in building Stonehenge, and so their influence must not be rejected in favor of "Atlanto-Mediterraneans."[10]

Finally, the works of the German scholars Paudler[11] and Kern[12] should not be neglected. They demonstrated at great length, the northern origins of the Megalithic culture, and its essentially Nordish racial background. It would therefore appear, that given the revised evidence, the Megalith builders were probably Brünn/Nordic in racial type.

http://www.white-history.com/earlson/nordishmegalith.htm

We may note that Angel (1944), calculated that during the Classical period of Greek history (650—150 BC), 27% of the Greek population had been predominantly Nordic in type. He observed that prior to the Classical period, the Nordic element had been larger, and that after it, the element in question had declined. [Angel (1943; 1944; 1945; 1946a, b, c.] Angel (1971), also noted that the immigrant Indo-Europeans, were of Nordic subrace.

Peterson (1974), studied portrait busts of famous ancient Greek personages, and concluded that the aristocracies of Hellas were a product of closely interbreeding, Eupatrid clans. These clans were mostly Nordic in type, being largely descended from the Indo-European invaders. The demos, or common people however, as well as most slaves, were of Mediterranean, Pelasgian descent.

The study of Greek literature which Sieglin (1935) performed, has demonstrated that many individuals in the elites of ancient Greece, had blond or red hair. For instance, Alcibiades, Alexander the Great, Critias, Demetrius of Phalerum, King Lysimachus, Ptolemy II Philadelphus and King Pyrrhus, were all fair-haired individuals. Dionysius I, the ruler of Syracuse, had blond hair and freckles, whilst the Athenian playwright Euripides, also had a fair and freckled complexion. [Günther (1956).] Some critics have attempted to claim that the Greek word “ksanthos” (xanthos), means “brown-haired”, rather than “blond-haired”. However, a recent article by Moonwomon (1994), on colour-meaning in ancient Greek, reveals that the word did in fact mean blond.

There are also numerous interesting examples from Greek literature which can be cited. For instance, in Homer’s Iliad, and Odyssey, whilst the aristocrats such as Achilles and Menelaus have blond hair, the slaves Eurybates and Thersites are brunet. Indeed, the Greek orator Dio of Prusa noted that the Greek ideal of beauty was a Nordic one. The Greeks, he said, admired the blond Achilles, but thought that the barbarian Trojan Hector, was black-haired. [Günther (1956).] In his Argonautica, the Greek poet Apollonius Rhodius, describes the hero Jason, and all fifty of the Argonauts, as blond-haired. [sieglin (1935).] When the heroine Electra, in Euripides’ play of that name, finds a lock of her brother Orestes’ hair, on the grave of their father Agamemnon, she can tell that it is his hair, because of its distinctive blond colour. It would appear that the nobility of ancient Greece was distinguished from the dark masses, by its many blond members. [Ridgeway (1909).] The poet Bacchylides said that the women of Sparta were blonde, and Dicaearchus said much the same thing about the women of Thebes. [Günther (1956).] For the Greeks, the most beautiful woman who ever lived, Helen, was a blonde, as were those mythical men such as Adonis, who were famed for their handsomeness. [sieglin (1935).

http://www.white-history.com/earlson/hellas.htm

The French author Rochat, examined portraits of the ancient Romans, and concluded that the Roman type was essentially Nordic. [Günther (1957).] The Swiss physical anthropologist His (1866), after studying both sculptures and skulls, determined that the true Romans had been Nordic.

There also exists a considerable body of evidence in relation to pigmentation. The German classicist Sieglin (1935), studied ancient Roman records, and demonstrated that the family names of most Patrician clans, denoted Nordic racial features, when they were translated from their original Latin. For instance, there were numerous Rufii, Rubrii and Rutilii, names which refer to red hair. There were also Flavi, Flaviani and Fulvi, which reveals blond hair. Sieglin studied all the references that were made to noted Romans, throughout the history of Roman literature. He compiled the following list of individuals, whose names are indicative of their possessing fair hair; Sieglin found: 7 Flavi, 20 Flaviani, 10 Fulvi, 121 Fulvii, 27 Rubrii, 26 Rufi, 24 Rufii, 36 Rufini, 45 Rutilii and 13 Ahenobarbi. He also observed that the names Flavius, Rufi and Rufini, were frequently employed by several Patrician families. [sieglin (1935) 53.]

We also possess descriptions of famous individuals. In his Life of Cato the Elder, Plutarch states that the Censor had red hair and blue eyes; in the same author’s Life of Sulla, he declares that the Dictator possessed golden-blond hair and blue eyes. Suetonius, in his Lives of the Twelve Caesars, said that both Augustus and Nero had blond hair and blue eyes, that Galba had blue eyes, whilst Domitian not only had a ruddy complexion, but also composed a poem about an elderly, red-haired Roman that he knew. Suetonius also notes that Nero’s gens were referred to as the Ahenobarbi, (Copper Beards), because his clan continually produced men who had red beards. Finally, we can observe that the name “Caesar”, derives from the Latin word caesius, which means “blue-eyed”. [Günther (1957) 147—162.]

It is interesting to note that the Romans thought that Aeneas, Romulus and Remus, as well as Roma, the goddess who symbolised the Eternal City itself, were all golden-haired individuals. It would seem that the Romans could only have thought that the mythical founders of their people were blond, if they were themselves an originally blond-haired nation. [Ogle (1929).] In his researches Günther (1927; 1929a, b; 1957), has examined in great detail, the racial history of the Romans, and has successfully demonstrated that the origins of Rome’s greatness lay in its Nordic racial elements.

This essentially Nordic trend continued into the Early Modern Period. The Germanic invasions refreshed Italy’s Nordic stock, and in time gave birth to the Renaissance. It is significant that the Renaissance flowered in the north of Italy, where the Nordic element was strongest, and not in the predominantly Mediterranean south. Throughout the Renaissance period, the ideal of beauty was Nordic. Dante’s Beatrice, and Petrarch’s Laura, were both blondes. Botticelli’s and Titian’s paintings depicted the blonde woman as being the most beautiful.

However, the blond element was not solely confined to images of the ideal. It is equally clear that the many geniuses the Renaissance produced, throughout several different fields of expertise, were also predominantly Nordic. Ripley (1899), thought that because Northern Italy is predominantly Alpine today, most of the great Renaissance figures must also have been Alpine. However, the facts do not confirm his speculations. Sergi and Frassetto (1925), examined the crania of several great Italians, including Dante, Petrarch, Raphael, Foscolo and Volta, and observed that all were either dolichocephalic, or mesocephalic. Of course, the true Alpine is brachycephalic. [Welcker (1884).]

In addition to this, we should not neglect the researches of Woltmann (1905). Woltmann studied portrait paintings, busts and written descriptions, to ascertain the physical features of the great men of the Italian Renaissance. He revealed that many of the individuals in question, such as Leonardo da Vinci, Tasso, Galileo, etc., were of Germanic descent, and that they possessed Nordic racial characteristics. The results of his investigations, were as follows: of the 125 men whose eye colour could be discerned, 102 had blue, blue-grey or blue-green eyes; 18 had brown or brown-grey eyes; and 5 had eyes of mixed pigmentation. Of the 108 men whose hair colour could be accurately determined, 68 had blond or red hair; 26 had brown hair; and 14 had black hair. [Woltmann (1905) 143—144.] Woltmann also discovered that most of the noble families who ruled over much of Northern Italy, produced blond individuals throughout their generations. Such families as the d’Este of Ferrara, the Bentivoglia of Bologna and the Sforza of Milan, were all largely blond-haired and blue-eyed. [Woltmann (1905) 42—49.]

We should also note the words of Bartolomeo Las Casas; in his Historia de las Indias, he depicted Christopher Columbus in the following manner:

“He was tall, had a long, striking countenance, aquiline nose, blue eyes, and a light skin, inclined to be ruddy; his beard and hair in youth were fair, but care soon whitened them.” [Günther (1927) 215.

http://www.white-history.com/earlson/nordic_italy.htm

White history or not, these statements have been made and lead to the conclusion that the Mediterranean had been injected with a prominent lot of Nordic people.

Columbus was from Genoa, which is right where ancient Liguria was situated, next to Marseilles, his heritage is ancient sailing in the area of these most ancient Ligurians who made pilgramage to the Swiss Alps, to Mont Bego, which is covered in prehistoric symbols.

Blonde aristocracy...

Las Meninas painting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Las_Meninas

[Abramelin]

I have been reading all night Prehistoric Heritage again and it has so many images of rock art in it. Lots of them seem to have some things in common, the Mother and the Sun, there is lots of rocks with the picture of a sun on it, heaps with daggers, sleds.

Frya may have been the original Mother Goddess even. She goes to a watch star, so some may have seen her then as a Mother, in the stars, a Goddess. It seems to me the OLB does not say Frya's people have Gods or even Goddesses, but that the priest created Gods and Goddesses out of the real people they encountered, such as Minerva and Wodin.

I think the megalithic structures seem to be more built by people who were practising rites, maybe priestly castes, they said once Druids built Stonehenge and then tossed it out as Druids came way later than Stonehenge, but did they really, were the Druids before they became Druids, priests of a Mother Goddess, who worshipped cows with horns, who knew magic and practised bloody rituals..kept track of the movements of the Heavens and kept everyone in subjugation by these religious practices?

All hard to say really.

The Germanic and Celtic people used the 'year wheel' or Yule Wheel. According to one source (John Morton) the Germanics used a year wheel with six spokes, and the Celtics a year wheel with eight spokes (and this is the one popular with new age pagans).

I can imagine they constructed henges based on these year wheels, and for nothing else than as calendar. And maybe even inspired by the already existing megaliths they encountered, and which were raised by the people who came long before them.

[ An interesting aside: it is now believed that the megalithic period of western Europe, from Scandinavia to Spain, was a very peaceful period, as compared to what happened after it ended.]

Several henges/earthen circles have been found in Germany (and I think also in Poland) that date to around 1500 BC (like the Goseck site in Germany) and of which they say were used as calendars (and as ritual sites)

Even those circles/henges were never mentioned in the OLB, as far as I know. And they must have been constructed while Frya's empire still ruled Europe.

(Btw, the idea that the Druids were responsible for the megalithis structures has already been thrown out of the window a very long time ago. Only some new age people still believe in it).

--

EDIT:

Hmm... it seems I was a bit off with my dating of the Goseck site:

http://www.archaeology.org/0607/abstracts/henge.html

---

The final phase of stone circle construction took place in the early to middle Bronze Age (c.2200–1500 BC) and saw the construction of numerous small circles which, it has been suggested, were built by individual family groups rather than the large numbers that monuments like Avebury would have required.

By 1500 BC stone circle construction had all but ceased. It is thought that changing weather patterns led people away from upland areas and that new religious thinking led to different ways of marking life and death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_circle

.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

Good stuff Puzz. I'd never heard this argument from an academic pov or any other to be honest. I knew of the Battleaxe culture and some others and Europe was populated by the agricultural PIE culture and the henges as calendar makes perfect sense. Only criticisms is that it may be outdated and the Iberian opinion is back in. I'll try and check but I am open to the alternative. It all rests on on archeology and genetics I guess, language to. It is interestingly not at odds with my suggestion elsewhere of Iberians or afro asiatics who had cthonic deities were the Titans and possibly the Nephilim. Nordish are more like giants I concede in strength but not necessarily height perhaps.

Not sure about Freya as the first Mother Goddess but the large numbers of Venus figurines in the North would lend this idea a lot of support. Thanks muchly I had not come across any of that even Libby and Coon.

Who gets the bragging rites over megaliths and early advancement of culture is potentially a contentuious issue but I honestly have no preformed agenda. This has been very helpful.

[The Puzzler]

The Germanic and Celtic people used the 'year wheel' or Yule Wheel. According to one source (John Morton) the Germanics used a year wheel with six spokes, and the Celtics a year wheel with eight spokes (and this is the one popular with new age pagans).

I can imagine they constructed henges based on these year wheels, and for nothing else than as calendar. And maybe even inspired by the already existing megaliths they encountered, and which were raised by the people who came long before them.

[ An interesting aside: it is now believed that the megalithic period of western Europe, from Scandinavia to Spain, was a very peaceful period, as compared to what happened after it ended.]

Several henges/earthen circles have been found in Germany (and I think also in Poland) that date to around 1500 BC (like the Goseck site in Germany) and of which they say were used as calendars (and as ritual sites)

Even those circles/henges were never mentioned in the OLB, as far as I know. And they must have been constructed while Frya's empire still ruled Europe.

(Btw, the idea that the Druids were responsible for the megalithis structures has already been thrown out of the window a very long time ago. Only some new age people still believe in it).

--

EDIT:

Hmm... it seems I was a bit off with my dating of the Goseck site:

http://www.archaeology.org/0607/abstracts/henge.html

---

The final phase of stone circle construction took place in the early to middle Bronze Age (c.2200–1500 BC) and saw the construction of numerous small circles which, it has been suggested, were built by individual family groups rather than the large numbers that monuments like Avebury would have required.

By 1500 BC stone circle construction had all but ceased. It is thought that changing weather patterns led people away from upland areas and that new religious thinking led to different ways of marking life and death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_circle

.

I said I knew the idea of the Druids building Stonehenge had been thrown out...you missed my point then, I said it could have been an earlier type of 'Druid' as such, not a Celtic Druid but an earlier for of a mother Goddess priest, who knew the star movements, obviously the ones reckoning time, who else is looking at the stars like these Magi priests?

I read somewhere the Pythagoreans may have something to do with it all, their triangles were used it seems for constructing the actual stone circles, they tell of the story of Phaethon as creating the Milky Way, lots of stuff they know and then this passes down to Plato and other philosophers who learn these ancient Pythagorean ideas.

As you said most of these stone henges were built quite early, many prior to the start of the OLB story and of no relation to the story itself, so I see no reason for them, even if the Fryans knew who built them, to be included in the history being told.

I do think the circles were a kind of calendar, but must have been built by people who were reckoning these times according to the movements of the stars and planets, seasons, however they did it, but what I do think is it has to be a priestly caste doing it, that transferred for however long, to these Magi type priests who claimed to have recorded time from before we know know time existed.

[The Puzzler]

Hang on Abe, I realised something wrong in my logic there, you mentioned the Frisians may be an originator of the time wheel because they had the Jule, so if it was a calendar, it might be them who built them..?

The Magyar seemed to appear too late to build them, 2100BC..

The Lapps, Finns, who came with these Magyar, who seem to be Saami, have been in the area for a long time too, prior to the beginning of the OLB, they estimate maybe at least 3000BC, we find Saami genes in Berber ones, very early, maybe 7000BC, it seems that possible waves of migrations had taken place into the Northern areas, maybe herding or something, possibly these people already knew the area, the 2100BC (100 years after Atland) arrival, seems one of many from thousands of years prior.

Circa 8000 BC: Wooden construction began on Stonehenge in England

Circa 5400 BC: Possible early date for Carrowmore in Ireland

Circa 5000 BC: Construction on Evora in Portugal.

Circa 4800 BC: Construction on Barnenez in Brittany and Bougon in Poitou

Circa 4000 BC: Construction on Carnac in Brittany, also Lisbon, Portugal, central and southern France, Corsica, England and Wales

Circa 3700 BC: Construction on Knockiveagh in Ireland and others

Circa 3600 BC: Construction on Maumbury Rings and Godmanchester in England, and Ggantija and Mnajdra temples in Malta

Circa 3500 BC: Constructions in Spain, Ireland, France, Sardinia, Sicily, Malta, the Mediterranean, Belgium and Germany

Circa 3400 BC: Construction on Newgrange in Ireland, the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden and Denmark

Circa 3200 BC: Construction on Hagar Qim and Tarxien in Malta

Circa 3000 BC: Constructions in France, the Mediterranean Coast, Spain, Sicily, Belgium, Orkney as well as the first true HENGES (circular earthworks) in Britain

Circa 2800 BC: Climax of the megalithic Funnel-beaker culture in Denmark, and the construction of the henge at Stonehenge.

Circa 2500 BC: Constructions in Brittany, Italy, Sardinia and Scotland, plus the climax of the megalithic Bell-beaker culture in Iberia, Germany, and the British Isles (stone circle at Stonehenge).

Circa 2000 BC: Constructions in Brittany, Italy, Sardinia, and Scotland.

Circa 1800 BC: Construction of Giovinazzo in Italy

Circa 1500 BC: Constructions in Portugal.

Circa 1400 BC: Burial of the Egtved Girl in Denmark, whose slim, 5' 3", blond haired, well manicured body is today one of the most well-preserved examples of its kind.

Circa 1200 BC: Last vestiges of the megalithic tradition in the Mediterranean and elsewhere

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/megalithic_europe.htm

I'll think some more on it.

Edited November 21, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Otharus]

I would herewith like to inform all participants of this forum that I cannot participate any further in this debate.

It came to my notice today that Abramelin is now including a highly offensive and, from a Christian viewpoint, blasphemous slogan with all his postings.

I do not expect people to agree with my religous convictions, but I thought we could at least respect each others right to such convictions.

Abramelin full well knows my religion and this time he has managed to silence me.

Something interesting has happened here which I don't want to let pass uncommented.

- Alewyn assumed that Abe's slogan was ment to offend him personally.

- Alewyn suggests that blasphemers don't respect others' right to whatever convictions.

I believe he was wrong both times, but more interestingly, the OLB issue is all about blasphemy.

Apart from the important question whether the information in the OLB is "just a hoax" or really very old, it's fascinating that the discussion about OLB has always been highly emotional and thus far from neutral.

It seems obvious that representatives of the religious and political establishment of 19th century Friesland felt offended by the OLB and its supposed creators and aimed their arrows at anyone who advocated the authenticity of the OLB.

Public offends, insults and accusations galore.

And in Holland, former Fresia, we just like to make fun of any organised religion and its representatives.

I guess this tendency is deeply rooted 'in our genes'.

Freedom of thought and freedom of speech are some of our highest traditional values.

Overold Freesian FOLK LORE.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Hang on Abe, I realised something wrong in my logic there, you mentioned the Frisians may be an originator of the time wheel because they had the Jule, so if it was a calendar, it might be them who built them..?

The Magyar seemed to appear too late to build them, 2100BC..

The Lapps, Finns, who came with these Magyar, who seem to be Saami, have been in the area for a long time too, prior to the beginning of the OLB, they estimate maybe at least 3000BC, we find Saami genes in Berber ones, very early, maybe 7000BC, it seems that possible waves of migrations had taken place into the Northern areas, maybe herding or something, possibly these people already knew the area, the 2100BC (100 years after Atland) arrival, seems one of many from thousands of years prior.

Circa 8000 BC: Wooden construction began on Stonehenge in England

Circa 5400 BC: Possible early date for Carrowmore in Ireland

Circa 5000 BC: Construction on Evora in Portugal.

Circa 4800 BC: Construction on Barnenez in Brittany and Bougon in Poitou

Circa 4000 BC: Construction on Carnac in Brittany, also Lisbon, Portugal, central and southern France, Corsica, England and Wales

Circa 3700 BC: Construction on Knockiveagh in Ireland and others

Circa 3600 BC: Construction on Maumbury Rings and Godmanchester in England, and Ggantija and Mnajdra temples in Malta

Circa 3500 BC: Constructions in Spain, Ireland, France, Sardinia, Sicily, Malta, the Mediterranean, Belgium and Germany

Circa 3400 BC: Construction on Newgrange in Ireland, the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden and Denmark

Circa 3200 BC: Construction on Hagar Qim and Tarxien in Malta

Circa 3000 BC: Constructions in France, the Mediterranean Coast, Spain, Sicily, Belgium, Orkney as well as the first true HENGES (circular earthworks) in Britain

Circa 2800 BC: Climax of the megalithic Funnel-beaker culture in Denmark, and the construction of the henge at Stonehenge.

Circa 2500 BC: Constructions in Brittany, Italy, Sardinia and Scotland, plus the climax of the megalithic Bell-beaker culture in Iberia, Germany, and the British Isles (stone circle at Stonehenge).

Circa 2000 BC: Constructions in Brittany, Italy, Sardinia, and Scotland.

Circa 1800 BC: Construction of Giovinazzo in Italy

Circa 1500 BC: Constructions in Portugal.

Circa 1400 BC: Burial of the Egtved Girl in Denmark, whose slim, 5' 3", blond haired, well manicured body is today one of the most well-preserved examples of its kind.

Circa 1200 BC: Last vestiges of the megalithic tradition in the Mediterranean and elsewhere

http://www.saveyourheritage.com/megalithic_europe.htm

I'll think some more on it.

> "Hang on Abe, I realised something wrong in my logic there, you mentioned the Frisians may be an originator of the time wheel because they had the Jule, so if it was a calendar, it might be them who built them..?"

I think you are confusing me for someone else.. I only said the German tribes used a six spoked Yule wheel, and the Celts used an eight spoked Yule wheel. So yeah, the Frisians (or better, the Inguavones) - a Germanic tribe - must also have had a six spoked Yule wheel. It was Otharus who posted an image of a quite recent example of a Frisian Yule wheel, a few pages back.

And I also said, that based on their Yule wheel, AND inspired by what they encountered of ancient megalithic structures, they MAY have constructed similar henges. It's even possible they - Germanics and/or Celts - borrowed the idea of the Yule wheel from the ancient Europeans they met when they started occupying Europe.

==

About the most famous henge, Stonehenge: it was still in use and being rebuilt a 1000 years after it was constructed, so the Frya people must have known of it. It was located in what was once their socalled 'penal colony', right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonehenge

[Flashbangwollap]

I guess this tendency is deeply rooted in our genes.

My guess: Connected with old worship (Gods) paganism and our modern sciences trying to understand nature more clearly. Thus bringing about the movement away from monotheism. = Drive to understand ourselves.

[Otharus]

My guess: Connected with old worship (Gods) paganism and our modern sciences trying to understand nature more clearly. Thus bringing about the movement away from monotheism. = Drive to understand ourselves.

Old 'paganist' ancestor worship, or worship of (the spirits of) long passed heroes and heroines (HELDEN), who were, of course...

GOOD = GOD.

('Spirit' = breath => inspiration = breathing in)

Understanding our roots and ancestors, understanding of where we are coming from, as a way of understanding ourselves.

How's that?

Edited November 21, 2010 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

I have been the one in this thread demanding the believers in the OLB to come forward with some real proof.

Up till now we only got ancient myths (which can be interpreted in any which way you desire) and a lot of wordplay.

Well, I am being accused of having a 'agenda', or just being skeptic for the hell of it.

Great.

I can tell now that I found something that could - in a way - confirm - the claims made by the OLB believers.

"However he is credited with prompting further research into sunken North Sea ports, in this case Rungholt, where underwater excavation has now, reportedly, found ceramics evidencing trade between Frisia and (wait for it) Minoan Crete dating back to 1600-1400 BC. This was of course around the time the Minoan Empire collapsed in the wake of the Thera/Santorini eruption – an event claimed by some classical scholars (and others) as inspiration for Plato’s Atlantis tale. (The new finds are detailed in cultural historian Hans Peter Duerr's 2005 book given as Rungholt: The Search For A Lost City, though it’s not clear if this is actually published in English.) Spanuth’s final work, from 1989, dealing with how the matter of this north-to-south cultural transmission might have worked, does not appear to have been translated. (Die Rückkehr der Herakliden: das Erbe der Atlanter; der Norden als Ursprung der griechischen Kultur - “The Return Of The Heraclides: The Legacy Of The Atlanteans, The North As The Origin Of Greek Culture.”)"

http://codexceltica.blogspot.com/2009/10/homers-north-atlantic-odyssey.html

"4. New Find: Bronze Age Crete-North Frisia [Northwest Germany] Connections

Note from "Dirk" in [Germanic-L] Digest Number 1786

<<The most shocking find was Minoic [Minoan] ceramic dated to the 13th and 14th

centuries BC, including characteriistic three-feet pots. This suggests,

according to the article that trade links existed between Crete and

the North Frisian Coast as early as 1400 BC. The finds come from a

Bronze age layer and cannot have been dropped into the site in modern

times. The objects were likely not transported to Rungholt by

intermediate traders over land, but were likely shipped directly from

Crete.>> "

http://britam.org/now/660Now.html

+++

"Some translation of the first part:

So the really exciting findings are lying under the late-medieval Rungholt?

At least the most surprising. Obviously there are several preceding settlements from the 4rth and 3rd century BC. One find did almost upset us: we came upon remains of levantine and especially minoan ceramics for transportation and daily use from Crete, 13th and 14th century BC. Among this, sherds of two tripod coockingpots. That's why we suppose ships traveling already 1400 BC from Crete to the coast of northern Frisia.

Would this be antiqities, transported by a modern ship?

No. Our findings were lying under a bronze-age layer of peat, build up - we suspect - already 1200 BC. Indeed during settlement in the middle ages, most of these turflayers were dug off - but nowhere in places to be used for wharfs and hauses. And exactly at such a place we discovered the antique ceramics! The pots we found, were highly likely not tradewares, finding their way to northern Frisia by commision-agents. The valueless ceramics for daily use did belong with great certainty to the equipment of a ship.

What could have tempted the Minoans from Crete in the North Sea in the 14th century BC?

That was the tin from Cornwall [etcetera]

So, probably a little bit more than one pot.

//

What was found: "transport" and "every-day-usage" (convenience) ceramics from the Levant and, more importantly, Minoan Crete - which would be used and found on a ship, but would normally not be traded long distances over land because of its crude and insignificant appearance. Containers for drinking and eating, lance tips, incense, lapis lazuli (perhaps from Afghanistan?), and a seal with linear-A inscription were among the items.

I think the combination of finds clearly points to a one-time, concentrated "transaction" from a source like a ship.

//

Yes Eurologist, that's almost a translation of especially the first paraghaph of the second part.

Both english and german are not my mothertongue. Reading no problem, but alas, translating too timeconsuming for doing it all.

What i can add now from the articles, is that it wasn't far from the British islands to Frisia, northern coastal areas where amber came from, beloved by the people of Mykene. That it was possible for Minoans very well to navigate the North Sea about 3300 years ago. And that the finds were of almost no value in exchanging goods.

This added, you have the content of the articles as good as complete. "

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/08/minoans-in-germany.html

+++++

Some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthlande

http://www.calsky.com/lexikon/de/txt/r/ru/rungholt.php

++++++++++

EDIT:

For the ones slow of mind, I will offer help...

Google "Rungholt", "Duerr", and "Minoan",in one go.

The Germans discovered ancient Minoan artifacts at the west coast of Denmark.

Cretan Tripods, ceramic, coins..

Either the ancient Frisians sailed to the Med, and collected stuff and brought it back to Denmark (and lost it)... or the Minoans sailed to Denmark to trade with the Danes,and somehow lost their cargo in Danish waters.

Either way, they were in contact.

I am a skeptical person. That means, doubting what people claim to be true, and nothing else.

I even doubt about my own ideas and convictions.

Can you say the same??

.

.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

I just got up. I doubt myself every minute of the day. OK, I'll read that again, cause it's early and I have to have my cuppa. It will probably take me half the day to check your post Abe. Sounds interesting.

[cormac mac airt]

Either the ancient Frisians sailed to the Med, and collected stuff and brought it back to Denmark (and lost it)... or the Minoans sailed to Denmark to trade with the Danes,and somehow lost their cargo in Danish waters.

A third possibility here Abramelin, is that a Phoenician ship loaded with various wares of the Mediterranean (to include Minoan) sailed to the area of Britain, Denmark and the North Sea and their ship, for whatever reason, was lost.

cormac

[Abramelin]

A third possibility here Abramelin, is that a Phoenician ship loaded with various wares of the Mediterranean (to include Minoan) sailed to the area of Britain, Denmark and the North Sea and their ship, for whatever reason, was lost.

cormac

True, very true.

But I only posted this archeological fact to tell peoople I consider things.

I am not just out to nail somone or some theory, I investigate.

Even if it could prove me wrong.

I haven't seen anything similar from the 'believers' here...

And how many times I said I wished that the OLB story was true??

Have you read something similar from the believers?

I don't think so.

They just stick to their convictions.

I will never.

Edited November 22, 2010 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

True, very true.

But I only posted this archeological fact to tell people I consider things.

I am not just out to nail someone or some theory, I investigate.

Even if it could prove me wrong.

I haven't seen anything similar from the 'believers' here...

Other than various and sundry ways of how it "could" be true, based on the various interpretations of what the OLB actually says, I haven't seen anything here that would suggest such from an archaeological or genetic standpoint, thusfar.

cormac

Edited November 22, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

Everyday objects seemingly on the ships from the area of Crete etc...

To me, it's as obvious as the nose on my face that many of the mythical stories and people in them are from the North, I have read before on items of interest from each culture and must go down that road some more later today, amber beads etc.

I don't think we can understand the changes that came to all of Europe with the Roman invasion and then Christianity. Everything they had was lost, both of these invasions of peoples and thought stripped Europe of any heritage it had, hidden away to be forgotten, never acknowledged as the place great cultures emerged from, what sort of ancient Greek would acknowledge they descended from those barbarians?

I recall reading up how horrified science was at discovering the cave art in Europe was so old and many would not accept the dates being given, it was incomprehendible that the barbarian stone age giant pagans who inhabited the area had this kind of artistic skill in them. In fact, it took something like 15 years for it to be accepted at their officialdom event at the time.

Homer and Hesiod imo were from ancient families of Europe, bards of a kind, who knew history and embedded it in a Greek propaganda exercise of the day.

That Ogygia is clearly not situated in the Mediterranean Sea, seems clear. Its vegetation does not conform to the Mediterranean climate. And in Homer’s epics, there are frequent references to fog, even snow, and of how the sun does not seem to set but instead lingers just beyond the horizon, a phenomenon that is typical for summer in the northern regions. In the Odyssey, we read: “Here we can perceive neither where darkness is nor where dawn is/ nor where the Sun shining on men goes down underground / nor where it rises.”

Furthermore, the sea is never described as being bright, but grey and misty. The characters wear tunics and “thick, heavy cloaks” which they never remove, not even during banquets. The sun or its warmth are seldom mentioned in the book, yet are what would immediately come to mind in a Mediterranean setting. Indeed, there is nothing in this geographical description that hints at a Mediterranean setting; even if Homer was not a geographer, he should at least have known what a typical Mediterranean landscape looked like – as he is believed to have lived there. Instead, it seems he lived elsewhere…

Amber - Electra. Danae, a Dane, as was Perseus. Helle, from the real Hellespont, in the Sea of Helle, Phaethon and his amber Heliades, Ixion and phantom cloud goddesses creating centaurs, tied onto Jule wheels for eternity for punishment. Blonde warriors like Achilles, Triton mermaids in Poland on the Vistula. Horses pulling Suns in Denmark...

However it happened and whatever proofs have been lost over time and destruction, it's there to see.

Though Vinci may be right, Piggott is most definitely right: the Achaean warriors used chariots to move across the battlefield, a method of fighting that was unknown in Greece. But similar chariot fighting was described by Julius Caesar when he invaded Britain; what he witnessed, seemed taken word by word from Homer’s accounts. Furthermore, the “great walls” of Troy (never said to be made out of stone) could be identical with the palisades around various megalithic tumuli and Celtic settings. The sweet wine the warriors drink may seem typically Mediterranean at first, but we now know that wine was grown in northern Europe, but that honey was added… making the wine indeed sweet; such an addition was not required for Mediterranean wines, and once again, it seems Homer’s heroes were thus fighting elsewhere. Finally, in Homer’s account, everyone drinks from bronze chalices, which is typical of Celtic customs – and largely absent from Mediterranean cultures.

http://perfidy.org/troy-like-many-other-cool-things-is-in-finland/

That's why the OLB seems so real to me, because what it's saying seems likely imo, to have happened.

[The Puzzler]

True, very true.

But I only posted this archeological fact to tell peoople I consider things.

I am not just out to nail somone or some theory, I investigate.

Even if it could prove me wrong.

I haven't seen anything similar from the 'believers' here...

And how many times I said I wished that the OLB story was true??

Have you read something similar from the believers?

I don't think so.

They just stick to their convictions.

I will never.

Me neither.

I investigate too. I've proven myself wrong way too many times to want to remember.

Why this subject gets me, is no real desire of any one outcome, but to gather more info on the topic of Greece being inhabited by Northern Europeans, like I've thought it had been for so long. Then it gives some answers to the mythical characters that seem so important but come from nowhere exactly.

I haven't stopped thinking about how influential those priests would have been, I mean controlled the whole show, for thousands of years, we read it, in history, I think we underestimate the power of them and how manipulating they were. People were like puppets, dumb puppets, the OLB keeps ramming this home and I see it more and more clearly every day as to how it would have been.

I'm going hunting for some artifacts now, maybe Mycenaean bronze weapons, beads etc and what sort of trade and items can be found in that area, if anyone has any good links.