[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Flashbangwollap]

[Conventional teaching, for many years now, has it that European languages were influenced from the Indian sub-continent; hence the term "Indo-European Languages" or "Proto Indo-European languages. I am not aware of anybody (at least from the West) who have ever seriously considered that just the opposite happened – in other words, that the Indian cultures (and languages) were actually influenced by migrants from Europe as the OLB claims./]

This question and others associated with tool and weapon development cross my mind on a daily basis. For instance we know that Britain produced Bronze weapons from the abundant finds in Britain. People don't find it remarkable that a huge number of Bronze age finds have been found throughout Europe pointing to an advanced culture.

Even worse that this culture arrived so say around 500BC. Ha! Who's kidding who. The same thing has to be said of the iron age and merely because of the lack of finds in this instance ignoring the fact that iron rust badly in a European climate and that Most of Europe has been tilled and plowed for centuries particularly around the city areas of today.

Add into this frustration the Druids which it would appear is the reason behind not keeping written documentation and you end up with a real conundrum.

But as you say due to our methods of teaching these points are passed over by almost all academia. Indeed if it wasn't for the odd maverick like Wilkens or Spanuth we would all be munching grass in a field full of BS which I believe is modern and quite ancient history of Europe spoon fed to us today.

However since nothing is proven unless it is written then what chance of changing anything?

Sorry Abe if you feel this is off topic but I feel it reflects on much of history today.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Flashbangwollap

[Otharus]

The problem with your map is that it is based on the idea that the situation (transgression) lasted for centuries.

They now know it didn't, and that is one of the reasons they left the Dunkirk Transgression Theory.

"Het oorspronkelijke model van de Duinkerkse transgressies wordt inderdaad door steeds meer geologen verlaten. Voor de conclusies over de bewoonbaarheid maakt dat geen verschil; de onbewoonbaarheid krijgt alleen een betere en nauwkeuriger verklaring."

source: http://www.ijpelaan.nl/Archief/Kennemerland/Kenn-Transgressie.html

Translated:

"The initial model of the Dunkirk transgressions is indeed abandoned by ever more geologists. For the conclusions concerning the habitability this does not make a difference; the inhabitability only gets a better, more accurate explanation."

What about those "recent archeological discoveries" proving Delahaye wrong, that you were talking about? They should be all over the internet.

[Alewyn]

#1- No, the OLB does indeed not say Friso came from India, only that he had lived there. It's indeed the other Frisian legends that say that Friso came from India.

#2 OK, that was an error. But even then the timing is off: the Geertmannen went to India in 1550 BC, iron working was in India centuries before that.

I have to disagree with you again. The OLB does not say or even hint at Friso ever having stayed in India. When Friso arrived back in Friesland, he uttered these words:

"We come from the Fere Krekaland to preserve our customs. Now we wish you to be kind enough to give us as much land as will enable us to live."

He himself said that he came from Greece (according to the OLB)

As for the iron-working in India: My sources all say this started ca 1500 BC

[Abramelin]

[Conventional teaching, for many years now, has it that European languages were influenced from the Indian sub-continent; hence the term "Indo-European Languages" or "Proto Indo-European languages. I am not aware of anybody (at least from the West) who have ever seriously considered that just the opposite happened – in other words, that the Indian cultures (and languages) were actually influenced by migrants from Europe as the OLB claims./]

This question and others associated with tool and weapon development cross my mind on a daily basis. For instance we know that Britain produced Bronze weapons from the abundant finds in Britain. People don't find it remarkable that a huge number of Bronze age finds have been found throughout Europe pointing to an advanced culture.

Even worse that this culture arrived so say around 500BC. Ha! Who's kidding who. The same thing has to be said of the iron age and merely because of the lack of finds in this instance ignoring the fact that iron rust badly in a European climate and that Most of Europe has been tilled and plowed for centuries particularly around the city areas of today.

Add into this frustration the Druids which it would appear is the reason behind not keeping written documentation and you end up with a real conundrum.

But as you say due to our methods of teaching these points are passed over by almost all academia. Indeed if it wasn't for the odd maverick like Wilkens or Spanuth we would all be munching grass in a field full of BS which I believe is modern and quite ancient history of Europe spoon fed to us today.

However since nothing is proven unless it is written then what chance of changing anything?

Sorry Abe if you feel this is off topic but I feel it reflects on much of history today.

No Flash, it's perfectly on topic.

But you say:

"I am not aware of anybody (at least from the West) who have ever seriously considered that just the opposite happened – in other words, that the Indian cultures (and languages) were actually influenced by migrants from Europe as the OLB claims"

If you read my large post to Alewyn, then you will see that many in the 19th century were convinced that that was exactly what had happened.

"Even worse that this culture arrived so say around 500BC."

No, even the OLB (the Geertmannen) says they arrived in the Punjab around 1550 BC.

[Otharus]

Was there an island called Urk in the Belgium Almere/Flevum?

Btw, the Zuiderzee did have the name Almere, after it was called Flevum.

Urk is of zero-point-zero relevance here.

The Zuiderzee was indeed called Flevum/ Almere,

just like Nijmegen was called Noviomagum,

and Utrecht => Trajectum,

and Dokkum => Dockynchirica,

and Wijk bij Duurstede => Dorestadum

and Holland, Utrecht, Friesland => Frisia

...

AFTER the history of the first millennium was imported to our provinces in the beginning of the second millenium (as I have extensively explained before).

Another interesting quote from:

KRITIEK der FRIESCHE GESCHIEDSCHRIJVING (Review of Frisian Historiography)

by Dr. J. BOLHUIS VAN ZEEBURGH (1873) Page 68 (about Gesta Fresonum):

Dutch:

"Van den tijd waar de heiligenlevens en de verhalen van Karel den groote onzen kroniekschrijver begeven (d. i. van ongeveer 900 tot 1200) tot aan de kruistochten wordt niets verhaald, eene gaping, die ook in andere Friesche kronieken bestaat."

English:

"From the time of the hagiographies and the tales of Charlemagne till the crusades (that is from ca. 900 till 1200), our chronicler has no reports, a gaping hole, that also exists in other Frisian chronicles."

I know it must be hard, having to unlearn things you liked so much at primary school.

The older you are, the more it hurts (for a little while).

Edited February 14, 2011 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

I have to disagree with you again. The OLB does not say or even hint at Friso ever having stayed in India. When Friso arrived back in Friesland, he uttered these words:

"We come from the Fere Krekaland to preserve our customs. Now we wish you to be kind enough to give us as much land as will enable us to live."

He himself said that he came from Greece (according to the OLB)

As for the iron-working in India: My sources all say this started ca 1500 BC

Yes, you are right again... My head is spinning from reading about and in the OLB, combined with reading other old Frisian legends (about Friso).

But what I said about the start of iron working in India is a quote from the pdf you yourself posted.

[Otharus]

It's indeed the other Frisian legends that say that Friso came from India.

But overall the OLB has many similarities with those other legends.

Have you actually read any of the old-Frisian chronicles?

There are hardly any similarities, the only ones I can think of now are Friso and Azinga Ascon (Asega Askar or black Adel in OLB), and OLB gives a completely different perspective than we know from the legends. Ottema pointed this out too in his introduction to his translation.

Thet Freske Riim suggests that the Frisians stem from Sem, one of the three sons of Noah...

Kroniek van Friesland (Occo Scarlensis) suggests that before Friso c.s. arrived, our lands were inhabited by giants from Albion...

They don't say much about the time before the year zero.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Urk is of zero-point-zero relevance here.

The Zuiderzee was indeed called Flevum/ Almere,

just like Nijmegen was called Noviomagum,

and Utrecht => Trajectum,

and Dokkum => Dockynchirica,

and Wijk bij Duurstede => Dorestadum

and Holland, Utrecht, Friesland => Frisia

...

AFTER the history of the first millennium was imported to our provinces in the beginning of the second millenium (as I have extensively explained before).

Another interesting quote from:

KRITIEK der FRIESCHE GESCHIEDSCHRIJVING (Review of Frisian Historiography)

by Dr. J. BOLHUIS VAN ZEEBURGH (1873) Page 68 (about Gesta Fresonum):

Dutch:

"Van den tijd waar de heiligenlevens en de verhalen van Karel den groote onzen kroniekschrijver begeven (d. i. van ongeveer 900 tot 1200) tot aan de kruistochten wordt niets verhaald, eene gaping, die ook in andere Friesche kronieken bestaat."

English:

"From the time of the hagiographies and the tales of Charlemagne till the crusades (that is from ca. 900 till 1200), our chronicler has no reports, a gaping hole, that also exists in other Frisian chronicles."

I know it must be hard, having to unlearn things you liked so much at primary school.

The older you are, the more it hurts (for a little while).

Heh, you really think I remember everything I learned at primary school?

You said:

The Zuiderzee was indeed called Flevum/ Almere,

just like Nijmegen was called Noviomagum,

and Utrecht => Trajectum,

and Dokkum => Dockynchirica,

and Wijk bij Duurstede => Dorestadum

and Holland, Utrecht, Friesland => Frisia

Well, at least from the Dutch Dorestad it is now known by many archeological finds to have been an important city of the Frisians. And existing in a time Delahaye and his supporters were convinced that it either did not exist at all, or wasn't important at all.

Btw, I read somewhere that during those Dunkirk Transgressions the Frisians - temporarily - may have settled in northern Belgium / Flanders. I lost the link, but it was a Dutch site, and it didn't even mention Delahaye.

But knowing the Dunkirk Transgressions Theory has been abandoned, this is of no real importance anymore.

.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

As for the iron-working in India: My sources all say this started ca 1500 BC.

Then you might want to add the source for the following, to your sources. Of particular note, IMO, see Table 2, showing dates well prior to c.1550 BC.

From source:

These results indicate that iron using and iron working was prevalent in the Central Ganga Plain and the Eastern Vindhyas from the early second millennium BC. The dates obtained so far group into three: three dates between c. 1200-900 cal BC, three between c. 1400-1200 cal BC, and five between c. 1800-1500 cal BC.

The origins of iron-working in India: new evidence from the Central Ganga

Plain and the Eastern Vindhyas

cormac

[Abramelin]

Have you actually read any of the old-Frisian chronicles?

There are hardly any similarities, the only ones I can think of now are Friso and Azinga Ascon (Asega Askar or black Adel in OLB), and OLB gives a completely different perspective than we know from the legends. Ottema pointed this out too in his introduction to his translation.

Thet Freske Riim suggests that the Frisians stem from Sem, one of the three sons of Noah...

Kroniek van Friesland (Occo Scarlensis) suggests that before Friso c.s. arrived, our lands were inhabited by giants from Albion...

They don't say much about the time before the year zero.

Yes, I did.

I have talked about those disasters (a 1000 feet high flood, crumbling mountains), and I read about Friso's adventures with the Greek. Based on Van Haren's poem, as you remember.

Similarity is NOT the same as copy, btw. I mean story elements.

[Abramelin]

Then you might want to add the source for the following, to your sources. Of particular note, IMO, see Table 2, showing dates well prior to c.1550 BC.

From source:

The origins of iron-working in India: new evidence from the Central Ganga

Plain and the Eastern Vindhyas

cormac

LOL, that is the pdf both Alewyn and I have quoted from.

[Otharus]

Well, at least from the Dutch Dorestad it is now known by many archeological finds to have been an important city of the Frisians.

If this would not be exaggerated, there should be loads about it on the web, even videos.

[Abramelin]

If this would not be exaggerated, there should be loads about it on the web, even videos.

Man, Google "Dorestad" and "archeologie".

[cormac mac airt]

LOL, that is the pdf both Alewyn and I have quoted from.

And yet it DOESN'T say that iron-working started c.1500 BC, which was Alewyn's claim concerning his sources.

cormac

[Abramelin]

#1- No, the OLB does indeed not say Friso came from India, only that he had lived there. It's indeed the other Frisian legends that say that Friso came from India.

But overall the OLB has many similarities with those other legends.

#2 OK, that was an error. But even then the timing is off: the Geertmannen went to India in 1550 BC, iron working was in India centuries before that.

You say ca 1550 BC. I have to look that one up in the OLB: I assumed the OLB said it was exactly 1550 BC.

Couldn't find it, but I think Ottema calculated the date, or guessed it:

De vestiging van die kolonie in Indie aan den Pangab in 1551 voor Chr. en hunne reis derwaarts, vinden wij in Adela's boek vrij uitvoerig beschreven

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_the002thet01_01/_the002thet01_01_0001.php

He says it's 1551 BC.

[Abramelin]

And yet it DOESN'T say that iron-working started c.1500 BC, which was Alewyn's claim concerning his sources.

cormac

True, but I think he meant other sources.

Well, that pdf appears to be the most recent paper on the history of iron working in India, so the date of the start of iron working in India will be centuries older than 1550 BC.

[cormac mac airt]

True, but I think he meant other sources.

Well, that pdf appears to be the most recent paper on the history of iron working in India, so the date of the start of iron working in India will be centuries older than 1550 BC.

I know you'll think it's nit-picking, but he said "all my sources", so if my last link was one of those sources then he pretty much shot himself in the foot. And yes, the date would be older and therefore not directly relevant to either the 1500 or 1550 BC dates.

cormac

[Abramelin]

I know you'll think it's nit-picking, but he said "all my sources", so if my last link was one of those sources then he pretty much shot himself in the foot. And yes, the date would be older and therefore not directly relevant to either the 1500 or 1550 BC dates.

cormac

Heh, no I don't think you are nitpicking. On the other hand, being as accurate as possible is indeed necessary in this thread.

About the paper or any scientific paper: I always start with the conclusion or discussion, not with the intro.

Saves a lot of time.

[cormac mac airt]

Heh, no I don't think you are nitpicking. On the other hand, being as accurate as possible is indeed necessary in this thread.

About the paper or any scientific paper: I always start with the conclusion or discussion, not with the intro.

Saves a lot of time.

Yes it is and yes it does. And I think we can both agree it doesn't lend any credibility to ones claim to state something as fact, only to have their previous link or citation say something completely different.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Man, Google "Dorestad" and "archeologie".

Something better (and I already posted about the next guy in post 463, page 31):

-In 1999 pubiceerde Joël Vandemaele in zijn boek "Controversiele Geschiedenis" zijn onderzoek naar de plaatsen die genoemd worden in het Oera Linda Boek, in relatie tot plaatsen in het huidige Noord Frankrijk en West-Vlaanderen. Mede gebaseerd op de studies van Albert Delahay en anderen. (zie kaart)

In his book "Controversial History" (1999), Joel Vandemaele published his research on the places mentioned in the Oera Linda Book, in relation to current locations in present Northern France and Western Flanders. Partly based on the studies of Albert Delahay and others. (see map)

http://home.planet.nl/~zeven230/geo.5.atlantis.htm

==

-J.Vandemaele vermeldt één plaatsbepaling in het OLB van Atlantis, "Ons voormalige westland, rechtover Brittannia gelegen" De plaatsbepaling correspondeert met Oud-Frisia "usque ad Armorem" uit Karel de Grote's Lex Frisonum, nl. tot aan Bretagne met de nederzetting van Kerenak of Carnac, waar "het goud van de Golen verzameld was, dat Askar uit OLB ging roven".

J. Vandemaele lists one location of Atlantis in the OLB, "Our former Westland, located directly opposite Britannia". The location corresponds to Old Frisia 'usque ad Armorem" from Charlemagne's Lex Frisonum, namely up to Brittany with the settlement Kerenak or Carnac, where "the gold of the Gauls had been collected, which Askar from the OLB was going to rob"

http://www.kunstgeografie.nl/atlantis/atlantis05.htm

Joël Vandemaele, "Controversiele Geschiedenis" :

http://www.mens-en-cultuur-uitgevers.be/boeken/controversiele-geschiedenis/controversiele-geschiedschrijving/

.

Edited February 14, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Man, Google "Dorestad" and "archeologie".

An impressive quantity of finds yes, but nothing of quality at first sight.

I have a bad web-connection here, cannot go look for a needle in a haystack (which I don't believe exists anyway).

You claimed to know proof that Wijk bij Duurstede is the legendary Dorestad.

Please enlighten us.

[Otharus]

Joël Vandemaele, "Controversiele Geschiedenis" :

http://www.mens-en-cultuur-uitgevers.be/boeken/controversiele-geschiedenis/controversiele-geschiedschrijving/

Yes, I am going to order and study that book, as well as

his Beowulf book (Het BEOWULF-epos).

Have you read the info about that one?

[Abramelin]

Yes, I am going to order and study that book, as well as

his Beowulf book (Het BEOWULF-epos).

Have you read the info about that one?

I did just now.

Maybe you will like this too, about Hengist and Horsa in relation to the Beowulf Saga:

http://www.bertsgeschiedenissite.nl/ijzertijd/eeuw5ac/koning_finn_folcwalding.htm

[Flashbangwollap]

I did just now.

Maybe you will like this too, about Hengist and Horsa in relation to the Beowulf Saga:

http://www.bertsgesc...folcwalding.htm

Hey thanks Abe... some great pics not so great the language.

Does this deal solely with Beowulf? If not do you know of an English site or equivalent which takes up the rest.

Note: I am using Linux which has no translator that I can find.

http://en.wikipedia....ngist_and_Horsa

I had a book which said the night of the long knives took place at Stonehenge. However not sure if true.

Edited February 15, 2011 by Flashbangwollap

[Alewyn]

Heh, no I don't think you are nitpicking. On the other hand, being as accurate as possible is indeed necessary in this thread.

About the paper or any scientific paper: I always start with the conclusion or discussion, not with the intro.

Saves a lot of time.

If one compares the latest calibrated dates of the samples in table 1 and 2 of Dr.Tewari's paper with their uncalibrated dates (BP), 50% of them falls within 45 years of each other and 18% within 100 years. For the remaining 32% (9 samples) the variance is in excess of 100 years and as much as 248 years. At Malhar and Dadupur in table 2, four of the five samples fall within this last category.

In table 1 (earlier work), two of the three older samples in Andra Pradesh also falls within this high variance category. In this case, however, these three samples were apparently ignored when they stated that iron working in India commenced around 1500 to 1300 BC.

In table 2 (later work) the author brings in these high variance samples to conclude that C14 dates show that iron working in India can possibly be moved back to ca 1800 BC. ( The variances are 139, 152, 122, 35, and 215 years).

We must bear in mind that C14 dating is done on plant material surrounding the artifacts and not the artifacts themselves. Depending on the location of these old sites, it is possible that older plant material could have been imported by, for example, floods which would then totally distort the dating of these artifacts. Unfortunately the quoted paper does not give this information.

Dr. Tewari may well be correct with his conclusion but I also believe that we need to look further for other supporting evidence.

The Indus Valley (Harappan) Urban Civilization appears to have been the most advanced civilization around the Indian sub-continent. This civilization peaked about 4200 years ago after they went into a sudden decline. Some link their demise to drought or famine (the 4.2 ka BP Bond event ?). Remnants of this civilization are thought to have still existed in 1700 BC and even as late as 1300 or 1000 BC. The point is that they are regarded as having been a bronze age people for most of their history. Surely, as the leading culture in the area, one would have expected them to have embraced iron working at a much earlier stage, that is, if iron working was already established in 1800 BC. Yet, we have no evidence of this.

We also have references in the Rig Veda to iron-working around 1500 BC but, nothing earlier.

On the balance of this evidence, I still believe that Iron-working could have been introduced by outsiders around 1500 BC. If, however, I am wrong, it should still not detract from the validity of the OLB. Remember, the OLB never claimed to have brought iron-working to India – I did.

As for my so-called self inflicted foot wound, I am cautiously optimistic that I will not be crippled for life.