[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Flashbangwollap]

Thanks for all your answers there Flash.

I gotta go with Otharus on 'Veritas Liberat', that is, Truth Frees and if it wasn't the Frisians we are talking about I'd say it could seem hoaxable, but this group of people have retained this moral code as part of who they are for ever and to accuse them of being liars and tale-makers seems to just go against everything they stand for...

Not only that, it makes sense in my book IF I take away the Christian Reckoning. Who developed that time? A monk.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Anno_Domini

Okay Puzz. Like I said a lot of ancient history is down to our individual lessons in life and our own personal faith so fair comment.

I'll keep looking and never discard anything completely either. I had this sort of argument with Harte or cormac once but luckily no one has (complete) mind control over us yet.

Just remembered the point I was making... I had to buy a new Iliad and the best I could find was one by D.C.H Rieu, Rieu's son. When I got home and read it he had changed even the word Achaean to Greek and that's the sort of thing that has been happening throughout history, not good in my book..

Edited March 12, 2011 by Flashbangwollap

[The Puzzler]

Okay Puzz. Like I said a lot of ancient history is down to our individual lessons in life and our own personal faith so fair comment.

I'll keep looking and never discard anything completely either. I had this sort of argument with Harte or cormac once but luckily no one has (complete) mind control over us yet.

Just remembered the point I was making... I had to buy a new Iliad and the best I could find was one by D.C.H Rieu, Rieu's son. When I got home and read it he had changed even the word Achaean to Greek and that's the sort of thing that has been happening throughout history, not good in my book..

Yep, I gotta go to bed but just on your last comment - if you check the website I linked with the English and Latin Script OLB text, you will notice that the OLB Latin Script text has Fryas (folk or similar words) not Frisians. I'm not saying that Fryas folk aren't Frisians, what I say is the wording distorts the timeframe of when Frisians first had that name.

eg;

If any man sets fire to anothers house, he is no Frisian, he is a b******. (I like that one)

1. Hwa en ôtheris hvs ut nid thene râde hôn anstekt nis nên Fryas, hi is en horning mith basterde blod.

Then many read the English version and they read Frisian, then they say, but Frisians weren't around that early, then that discredits the book, but in fact, no one said Frisians at all...

Night all.

Edited March 12, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Otharus]

I gotta go with Otharus on 'Veritas Liberat', that is, Truth Frees and if it wasn't the Frisians we are talking about I'd say it could seem hoaxable, but this group of people have retained this moral code as part of who they are for ever and to accuse them of being liars and tale-makers seems to just go against everything they stand for...

Thank you, Puzzler.

(I miss the emoticon with the tear in the eye )

[Abramelin]

I believe it's about this too.

Both.

The Frisians were the source of ancient European history and they also know the truth about how the priests, Druids, Golar, Magyar etc invented a religion that they spread all over the place, whilst in the background a once strong cultural people were laid to waste by the power of the lies and manipulations of others.

It seems simple enough to me.

It seems logical enough too.

The OLB is to me a book created to fill in the gaps of history. It was people's intention to do that, amongst other things.

-

True enough: Christians (monks, priests) have twisted history to their own advantage, and have done their best to make ancient pagan beliefs look backward, primitive and barbarian. And most certainly there were many people - in the 19th century - aware of that FACT. Check the pdf I advised Tony to read.

-

Alewyn doesn't like it when I mention someone like Tolkien, but he should admit that a very informed person is able to create an alternative history all on his own. I have said that if Tolkien had left out all the 'magical' stuff from his books, he could have created an acceptable alternative history of very ancient times.

Tolkien spoke many languages, especially old anglo-saxon and germanic ones and Finnish, and he created his own languages and 'runes'.

[Otharus]

There is hardly any meat in the book.

How would you like your meat, sir?

(pagenumbers: original manuscript/ Ottema & Sandbach)

[p.009/017]

O Finda. Tha wårth jrtha fvl blod, ånd tha hâveda thêr månneska måjadon thin bårn lik gårs hålma of.

O Finda, toen werd de aarde vol bloed, en de hoofden der menschen maaiden uwe kinderen af gelijk grashalmen.

O Finda! then the earth overflowed with blood, and your children were mown down like grass.

[p.082/115]

After im kêm en skiper fona Dênemarka, thisse nam sin swêrd ånd hif thêne Fin thrvch sina hole.

Thêrut flât swart blod ånd thêrvr swêfde-n blâwe logha.

Achter hem kwam een zeeman van de Denemarken, deze nam zijn zwaard en kloofde den Fin den kop.

Daaruit stroomde zwart bloed en daarboven zweefde eene blaauwe vlam.

A Danish soldier came behind him and clave his head in two.

There came from it a stream of black blood and a wreath of blue flame.

[p.084/117]

That blod thêra årgum skil ovir thin lif strâma, men thu ne mügth et navt to thi nêma.

Het bloed der boozen zal over uw ligchaam stroomen, maar gij moogt het niet tot u nemen.

The blood of the bad shall flow over your surface, but you must not absorb it.

[p.136/185]

Tha wrdon tha alderdrista månniska mith hjara kêdne wirgad.

Irtha heth hjara blod dronken, mith thåt blod fode hju früchda ånd nochta,

ånd alle tham thêr of êton wrdon wis.

Toen werden de stoutmoedigste menschen met hunne ketenen gewurgd.

De aarde heeft hun bloed gedronken, met dat bloed voedde zij vruchten en koorn

en al die daarvan aten werden wijs.

Then the boldest of the people were strangled in their chains.

The earth drank their blood, and that blood produced corn and fruits

that inspired with wisdom those who ate them.

[p.141/191]

Tha forsta thêr wêrhêd minna ånd rjucht tham skilun fon tha prestera wika,

blod skil strâma, men thêrut skil-et folk nye kråfta gâra.

De vorsten, die de waarheid liefhebben en het recht, die zullen van de priesters afwijken;

het bloed zal stroomen, maar daaruit zal het volk nieuwe krachten vergaderen.

The princes who love the truth and justice shall separate themselves from the priests;

blood shall flow, but from it the people will gather new strength.

[p.142/193]

Sâ fêlo lêd skil hju broda, thåt Irtha-t blod algâdvr navt drinka ne kån fon hira vrslêjana bernum.

Zoo veel leed zal hij broeden, dat Irtha het bloed niet zal kunnen drinken van hare verslagene kinderen.

It will breed so much mischief that Irtha will not be able to drink the blood of her slain children.

[p.197/237]

Tha Gola mêieath then tha nitherlêga fon hjara helpar ånd salt-âthum vppa vsa fjeldum skryva

mith-et blod, thåt ût hjara wndum drjupth.

De Golen mogen dan de nederlagen van hunne helpers en soldaten op onze velden schrijven

met het bloed dat uit hunne wonden druipt.

The Gauls may then record the defeat of their helpers and soldiers upon our fields

with the blood that flows from their wounds.

[p.201/243]

Orloch was mith kvmen ånd kirt åfter flojadon strâma blod by tha hellinga thêra bergum del.

De oorlog was mede gekomen en kort daarna vloeiden stroomen bloed bij de hellingen der bergen neder.

War had come with him, and soon blood was streaming down the slopes of the mountains.

[Otharus]

... or maybe you prefer mutton?

[Ottema/Sandbach p.52-53, original p.35-36]

UTA SKRIFTA MINNO.S.

Hwanath kvmth-et kwâd thån wêi, frêjath tha prestera.

Waar komt het kwaad dan weg, vroegen de priesteren.

Where, then, does evil come from? asked the priests.

[Hellenia a.k.a. Minerva:]

Allet kwâd kvmth fon jow ånd fon thêre dvmhêd thêra månniska,

tham hjara selva fon jow fensa lêta.

Alle kwaad komt van u en van de domheid der menschen,

die zich van u laten vangen.

All the evil comes from you, and from the stupidity of the people

who let themselves be deceived by you.

Jef thin drochten thån sâ bjustre god is,

wêrvmb wêrther-et kwâd thån navt,

frêjath tha prestera.

Indien uwe godheid dan zoo bijster goed is,

waarom weert hij dan het kwaad niet,

vroegen de priesters.

If, then, your god is so exceedingly good,

why does he not turn away the bad?

asked the priests.

Hellenia andere,

Frya het vs vppe wêi brocht ånd thene kroder thåt is tid,

tham mot thåt ovrige dva.

With alle rampum is rêd ånd help to findande,

tha Wr.alda wil thåt wi hja selva soka skilon,

til thju wi sterik skile wertha ånd wis.

Nillath wi navt, thån lêt-er vsa trul ut trulla,

til thju wi skilon erfâra, hwat nêi wisa dêdum

ånd hwat nêi dvma dêdum folgath.

Hellenia antwoorde:

Frya heeft ons op den weg gebracht, en de Kroder, dat is de Tijd,

die moet het overige doen;

voor alle rampen is raad en hulp te vinden,

doch Wralda wil dat wij die zelve zullen zoeken,

opdat wij sterk zullen worden en wijs.

Willen wij niet, dan laat hij onze verbastering uitrazen,

opdat wij zullen ervaren, wat na verstandige daden

en wat na dwaze daden volgt.

Hellenia answered:

Frya has placed us here, and the carrier, that is, Time,

must do the rest.

For all calamities there is counsel and remedy to be found,

but Wr-alda wills that we should search it out ourselves,

in order that we may become strong and wise.

If we will not do that, he leaves us to our own devices,

in order that we may experience the results of wise

or foolish conduct.

Tha sêide-ne forst,

ik skolde wâna, that wêre betre, that to wêrande.

Toen zeide een vorst:

Ik zoude wanen, dat het beter ware, die te weeren.

Then a prince said,

I should think it best to submit.

Hwel müglik, andere Hellênia,

hwand than skolde tha månniska bilywa lik tåmade skêpa;

thv ånd tha prestera skolde-r than hoda willa,

men âk skêra ånd nêi thêre slacht benke fora.

Wel mogelijk, antwoordde Hellenia,

want dan zouden de menschen blijven gelijk makke schapen,

gij en de priesters zoudt hen willen hoeden,

maar ook scheren en naar de slachtbank voeren.

Very possibly, answered Hellenia;

for then men would be like sheep,

and you and the priests would take care of them,

shearing them and leading them to the shambles.

Tach alsa nil-t vs drochten navt, hi wil that wi ekkorum helpa,

men hi wil âk thåt jahweder fry sy ånd wis wrde.

Doch zoo wil het onze godheid niet, hij wil, dat wij elkander helpen,

maar hij wil ook dat iedereen vrij zij en wijs worde.

This is what our god does not desire, he desires that we should help one another,

but that all should be free and wise.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Thank you, Abe.

The more I get to know you, the easier I find it to ignore and relativise your regular outbursts of frustration.

But they do make me hesitate to invite other experts to join the forum.

I will tell you something else: *I* myself hesitate to invite people because of the way *I* behave.

I think that is one of main reasons Menno Knul doesn't participate in this thread, but he was too polite to tell me I behave like a barbarian sometimes, lol.

.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Just another proof how you distort things in order to dicredit others.

You show ONE example where I said this.

Stop talking nonsense.

I do not distort things, I misunderstood your post #3510. I guess my command of the Engish language is not perfect.

And now admit I misunderstood yur post.

I am not talking nonsense, I am just causing doubt about the OLB, and you hate it.

You have called me so many names in the past that what I said about what I thought of you is minor in comparison.

And even though you want to make me look like an idiot, a liar, and someone distorting facts, I have repeatedly said that I respected the fact that you wrote a book about the OLB. Think about that one, please.

It is not me with an agenda, it is YOU.

It is *I* who posted about discoveries that could somewhat corroberate the OLB. I am not afraid to do that. But where is proof of YOUR doubt? You appear like someone defending the one and only true religion, ignoring anything that might give cause for some doubt.

If the OLB is a true ancient document, congratulations, if it's not, bad luck.

I have learned a lot of other things while researching for this thread, and that is worth a lot to me.

.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Abramelin

[Flashbangwollap]

Hi Otharus. Thanks for the translations or transliterations...See I'm not even sure which it is. Next I'm glad to see that you are still willing to participate on this thread as you have added your own brand of salt and mustard to the mix. (No mutton for me please. I'll stick with the beef.)

Perhaps I expect too much from this history which leads me to be suspicious. However the narrative still seems to lack that personal ring, that ...I was there it was so great. You know the sort of thing that Homers work seems to convey. Even the Firblogs of Ireland where they are fighting just outside the front door. No great numbers but that personal feel to it makes it all the more credible to me.

Anyway I will try to catchup once again so play on my man and good luck. It would be great that one way or the other to find enough to reinstate the most part of the book. I do however feel that to completely unravel this poser will not be possible.

[Abramelin]

"Hi Otharus. Thanks for the translations or transliterations...See I'm not even sure which it is"

This is transliteration (into Latin script):

Allet kwâd kvmth fon jow ånd fon thêre dvmhêd thêra månniska,

tham hjara selva fon jow fensa lêta.

This is translation (into English):

All the evil comes from you, and from the stupidity of the people

who let themselves be deceived by you.

[Flashbangwollap]

Cheers Abe now all I have to do is remember that. It will sink in but if I trip or fall just haul me back up okay?

[Abramelin]

Cheers Abe now all I have to do is remember that. It will sink in but if I trip or fall just haul me back up okay?

Don't worry, I am getting used to repeating myself here, LOLOL !!

I am never too tired to explain myself, I am never too tired to repeat what someone forgot I said.

But I am REALLY tired of people ignoring what I said, who then wait a while, and say I never mentioned 'it', whatever it was.

.

Edited March 12, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

I am never too tired to explain myself, I am never too tired to repeat what someone forgot I said.

But I am REALLY tired of people ignoring what I said, who then wait a while, and say I never mentioned 'it', whatever it was.

Abe, can you give a top 5 of things left unanswered?

I may have ignored things that I did not know enough about, considered irrelevant or had no time for.

I'll do my best to catch up.

[The Puzzler]

Thank you, Puzzler.

(I miss the emoticon with the tear in the eye )

That is truly what drives me to believe this.

I also like your other quote - just because we see no stars in the day does not mean they are not there. Good one.

[The Puzzler]

Hi Otharus. Thanks for the translations or transliterations...See I'm not even sure which it is. Next I'm glad to see that you are still willing to participate on this thread as you have added your own brand of salt and mustard to the mix. (No mutton for me please. I'll stick with the beef.)

Perhaps I expect too much from this history which leads me to be suspicious. However the narrative still seems to lack that personal ring, that ...I was there it was so great. You know the sort of thing that Homers work seems to convey. Even the Firblogs of Ireland where they are fighting just outside the front door. No great numbers but that personal feel to it makes it all the more credible to me.

Anyway I will try to catchup once again so play on my man and good luck. It would be great that one way or the other to find enough to reinstate the most part of the book. I do however feel that to completely unravel this poser will not be possible.

I'll plead my case once more to avoid looking at the OLB like Homer's work. It's not a story, a tale or a narrative. It contains Laws, which are quite detailed really for the time and is compiled of notes and letters, kind of like diary entries of their early history, personal details of people of note such as the mothers, notes from Minnos and a letter from the Punjab and details about who established the compilation of the notes.

Many of the writings have been taken and written from writings on the walls of citadels. It was not written by a writer or historian, many women contributed to it, to me, the amount of men or details of wars is the last thing they'd write about.

lol I'll leave it at that, I'm not asking you to believe the book is true but some more reasons why the 'meat' you are looking for may not be there.

Edited March 13, 2011 by The Puzzler

[jmccr8]

Hi Abramelim,

You are correct in stating that I would be better served if I spoke Dutch,but due to the dillegence of yourself,Otharus,Alwyen,and Puzzler I am able to follow along and both learn and enjoy that which has been presented.I had never heard of Frisians or their history before this thread,and the relationship to other cultures gives me a greater platform by which I can understand our past.It is for this reason that every now and then I say thank you for your gifts.I have followed this thread from its inception and will continue to do so as even though at times there is frustration between the posters the amount of information and perspective is much appreciated.

jmccr8

[Alewyn]

I do not distort things, I misunderstood your post #3510. I guess my command of the Engish language is not perfect.

And now admit I misunderstood yur post.

But your command of the language is good enough to call me a liar, an idiot, that I have hidden (religious) agendas and to “F..k off”. When you are in a corner you like to excuse yourself by either claiming your English is not all that good or that you were intoxicated. Well, English is not my first language either and sometimes I also have to rack my brain for certain words or concepts.

On numerous occasions I have attempted to engage with you in a civilized debate. It would, however, seems that you regard civility and courtesy as a sign of weakness. Now let me assure you Dutchman: Throughout my life and career I have dealt with much tougher cookies than yourself.

The choice is yours whether this debate will continue in a dignified manner or whether this will degenerate further into a mudslinging contest.

I am not talking nonsense, I am just causing doubt about the OLB, and you hate it.

No. You are trying to cause doubt about my integrity. I can accept it if anyone accuses me of being too subjective, but you have been calling me an outright liar on numerous occasions.

And even though you want to make me look like an idiot, a liar, and someone distorting facts, I have repeatedly said that I respected the fact that you wrote a book about the OLB. Think about that one, please.

Yes, and you have also said that you would have liked it if the OLB was true. In my opinion you are just feigning objectivity on both accounts. As I said before, the reasoning in my book went way over your head or else you are just in plain denial.

I am quite willing to continue with a meaningful debate but the choice is yours. If you cannot behave in a civilized way, then leave my name out of it.

[The Puzzler]

Hi Abramelim,

You are correct in stating that I would be better served if I spoke Dutch,but due to the dillegence of yourself,Otharus,Alwyen,and Puzzler I am able to follow along and both learn and enjoy that which has been presented.I had never heard of Frisians or their history before this thread,and the relationship to other cultures gives me a greater platform by which I can understand our past.It is for this reason that every now and then I say thank you for your gifts.I have followed this thread from its inception and will continue to do so as even though at times there is frustration between the posters the amount of information and perspective is much appreciated.

jmccr8

[The Puzzler]

Yeah, we all know what's what here, making accusations about one's supposed real motives etc isn't really helping anyone.

It's always about an agenda with you Abe.

How about no-one has an agenda here and the OLB hasn't one either...

I've been investigating the evidence from the shipwreck Abe mentioned as one thing he found that could be what may show some sort of truth in it.

I'll rejog: (from Dienekes' Anthropology Blog)

One find did almost upset us: we came upon remains of levantine and especially minoan ceramics for transportation and daily use from Crete, 13th and 14th century BC. Among this, sherds of two tripod coockingpots. That's why we suppose ships traveling already 1400 BC from Crete to the coast of northern Frisia.

Would this be antiqities, transported by a modern ship?

No. Our findings were lying under a bronze-age layer of peat, build up - we suspect - already 1200 BC. Indeed during settlement in the middle ages, most of these turflayers were dug off - but nowhere in places to be used for wharfs and hauses. And exactly at such a place we discovered the antique ceramics! The pots we found, were highly likely not tradewares, finding their way to northern Frisia by commision-agents. The valueless ceramics for daily use did belong with great certainty to the equipment of a ship.

What could have tempted the Minoans from Crete in the North Sea in the 14th century BC?

That was the tin from Cornwall [etcetera]

So, probably a little bit more than one pot.

---------

Monday, September 01, 2008 10:29:00 AM

eurologist said...

What was found: "transport" and "every-day-usage" (convenience) ceramics from the Levant and, more importantly, Minoan Crete - which would be used and found on a ship, but would normally not be traded long distances over land because of its crude and insignificant appearance. Containers for drinking and eating, lance tips, incense, lapis lazuli (perhaps from Afghanistan?), and a seal with linear-A inscription were among the items.

I think the combination of finds clearly points to a one-time, concentrated "transaction" from a source like a ship.

Monday, September 01, 2008 11:57:00 AM

Toos said...

Yes Eurologist, that's almost a translation of especially the first paraghaph of the second part.

Both english and german are not my mothertongue. Reading no problem, but alas, translating too timeconsuming for doing it all.

What i can add now from the articles, is that it wasn't far from the British islands to Frisia, northern coastal areas where amber came from, beloved by the people of Mykene. That it was possible for Minoans very well to navigate the North Sea about 3300 years ago. And that the finds were of almost no value in exchanging goods.

This added, you have the content of the articles as good as complete.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/08/minoans-in-germany.html

[Flashbangwollap]

I'll plead my case once more to avoid looking at the OLB like Homer's work. It's not a story, a tale or a narrative. It contains Laws, which are quite detailed really for the time and is compiled of notes and letters, kind of like diary entries of their early history, personal details of people of note such as the mothers, notes from Minnos and a letter from the Punjab and details about who established the compilation of the notes.

Many of the writings have been taken and written from writings on the walls of citadels. It was not written by a writer or historian, many women contributed to it, to me, the amount of men or details of wars is the last thing they'd write about.

lol I'll leave it at that, I'm not asking you to believe the book is true but some more reasons why the 'meat' you are looking for may not be there.

I suppose you're aware of just how long and hard the Iliad has been debated in the past? Picked to pieces to examine every atom. So no I think it best not to get into the why's and where fores.

Graffiti is more to do with every day life not the greater world outside of the normal realms of people. Today thankfully graffiti and so on is being looked at with greater interest other wise we get the impression in times gone by all that happened was war and fighting and disruption. But of course for the majority this wasn't the case. A big event in more normal life would have been to go and watch an execution, brutal but a crowd puller none the less. Emperors and so on cottoned on to this with their civic entertainment programs. Wandering through Pompeii gave me the feeling of everything being more or less what you expect apart from the architecture and cramped housing. But this is normal in any large city today it's just built in a different direction.

That meat.. I have been talking about is this... If the OLB had been just one episode from the past say covering a period of five years then I would not question it. Dares and Dyctys are, as far as I can ascertain, works derived from the war with Troy but written down at a later date. As a consequence of this the style has been lost perhaps or Dares noted only what was happening at the time without turning it into a Bardic or poetic form.

However the works are not accepted by academia and so makes it all a rather mute point.

Over all the OLB may well be an abridged version of Frisian history or just as easily it could be part reality or total fabrication. If in the future some other work is found which backs up the OLB then we may have a better chance of reinstating the OLB. As it stands I'm not so sure.

Edited March 13, 2011 by Flashbangwollap

[Abramelin]

But your command of the language is good enough to call me a liar, an idiot, that I have hidden (religious) agendas and to “F..k off”. When you are in a corner you like to excuse yourself by either claiming your English is not all that good or that you were intoxicated. Well, English is not my first language either and sometimes I also have to rack my brain for certain words or concepts.

On numerous occasions I have attempted to engage with you in a civilized debate. It would, however, seems that you regard civility and courtesy as a sign of weakness. Now let me assure you Dutchman: Throughout my life and career I have dealt with much tougher cookies than yourself.

The choice is yours whether this debate will continue in a dignified manner or whether this will degenerate further into a mudslinging contest.

No. You are trying to cause doubt about my integrity. I can accept it if anyone accuses me of being too subjective, but you have been calling me an outright liar on numerous occasions.

Yes, and you have also said that you would have liked it if the OLB was true. In my opinion you are just feigning objectivity on both accounts. As I said before, the reasoning in my book went way over your head or else you are just in plain denial.

I am quite willing to continue with a meaningful debate but the choice is yours. If you cannot behave in a civilized way, then leave my name out of it.

The thing about religion started when I changed my signature into something that wasn't meant for at you at all. I just thought it was funny, but then you got all worked up. Yeah, I have quoted that the OLB had a direct link with the religious disputes in the 19th century, but that was obviously not my conclusion, but history's.

You also have said - or suggested - many times that anyone doubting the validity of the OLB is an idiot, stupid, afraid, or just trying to p*** people off, and more. As I am the only skeptic left in this thread, most of the times, that was obviously meant for me.

Now I'm not sure it was you too, but you will remember I have been accused in this thread of having some sort of agenda. I am skeptical, true, but I am not posting with some kind of 'agenda'.

You reasoning in your book did not go over my head at all. And I have shown you have made several errors, based on the English translation of the OLB that you used, that you have no idea about archeological finds here in The Netherlands, others more informed showed you that your theory about a comet impact (tilt of the earh's axis around 2200 BC) was faulty, and so on. Then, after some time, you come back and rekindle what was discussed before while at the same time ignoring what has aleardy been brought up.

And now you are accusing me of feigning objectivity, and no doubt you will come up with more, new and improved, labels for me.

My 'feigned objectivity' led me to archeological finds no one here had ever heard of: a bronze age Minoan ship near Denmark, a bronze age disk with 6 spokes worn by a priest in Schlewsig-Holstein, even a hexagonal stone tower in England, and some I forgot right now. You tell me: why should I even post about finds like that? To trick you and others or something??

Btw, I do want to continue the discussion, but not with someone who has dug his heels deep into the ground and not willing to move an inch.

[Abramelin]

Abe, can you give a top 5 of things left unanswered?

I may have ignored things that I did not know enough about, considered irrelevant or had no time for.

I'll do my best to catch up.

I realize that you may have missed a couple of things because you have been travelling around and could not always access the internet. My remark was more aimed at a certain someone here...

[Otharus]

Today the two books from JoëlVandemaele (I misspelled that) arrived.

I have finished reading one of Vandemaelle's books now, "Controversiele Geschiedschrijving" (Controversial Historiography), and although I enjoyed reading it and learned some new things, I am not overall satisfied.

One of the most important parts; the map of "Old Frisia", located in West-Flanders, with the burgs as mentioned in OLB, does not match with the description given in the manuscript.

In OLB (original p.5, Ottema/Sandbach p.11) we find:

Ast-flylând + ovir-a Linda-wrda: Ljvdgârda, Lindahêm, Stâvja

Oostflyland + over de Lindeoorden: Liudgarda, Lindahem, Stavia

hâga fenna + walda: Bvda, Manna-gârda-forda

Hoogefennen + Wouden: Buda, Manna-garda-forda

Sûdar Flylânda: Aken, Ljvdburch, Kâtsburch

Zuiderflylanden: Aken, Liudburg, Katsburg

West-flylând + Texland: Wâraburch, Mêdêasblik, Forâna, ald Fryasburch

Westflyland + Texel: Waraburg, Medeasblik, Forana, Fryasburg

tha Sjvgon êlânda: Walhallagâra

de Zeven eilanden: Walhallagara

Vandemaelle:

Liudgarda = Lugdunum on Peutinger Map, now Leulinghen

Stavia = Staliocanus from Ptolomeus, now Etaples at the Canche river

Buda = Bubers-les-Hesmont near Budberg and Buda river

Manna-garda-forda = Mannaricium on Peutinger Map, now Merville near Haezebrouck

Katsburg = Katsberg, Mont des Cats

Waraburg = Brugge

Medeasblik = Middelburg

Forana = Latin Furna or Furana, now Veurne

Walhallagara = Walcheren

Alderga = Oudenburg

Texland = Tecelia (Ptolomeus), Axles (tacitus), now Escalles near Cap-Blanc-Nez

Although some of these may be true, they can't all be, because that would mean Westflyland was located northeast of Eastflyland... (see map)

The book is chaotic, as if published in a hurry. I'm still processing it, may need a re-read.

It would be nice if a revised version could be published on the web, with better references to sources and explanations.

One thing that has become clear is that as a result of many migrations, there are several places with similar names. This can be very confusing.

(According to Vandemaelle West-Flandres used to be called Îrland and Ireland used to be called Scotia. Ofcourse there is Normandy and Bretagne in France. Did all this confusion start with the Troyan war?!)

So, although it's tempting to read OLB's Texland as nowaday Texel, OLB's Medeasblik as Medemblik, Stavia as Stavoren etc., this may not be right at all. I believe that North-west France and West-Flandres were much more strategic points for seafaring and trading peoples to settle than in the bog-marches and floodlands of the more northern Low or Nether Lands (Dana Marka?).

North-west France and West-Flandres indeed seem to have a much older history and archaeology, but VDM's map begs for a revision. Besides, what would the area between Flandres and Denmark have been referred to?

Could the following be a clue???

(According to a footnote of Ottema, "Dêne marka" means low (nether?) lands...)

[ottema/Sanbach p.69/ original p.48]

Alle strând ånd skor hêmar fon-a Dênemarka alont thêre Såndfal nw Skelda

wrdon Stjurar, Sêkåmpar ånd Angelara hêton.

Alle strand en kustbewoners van de Denemarken af tot aan de Sandval, nu Schelde,

werden Stuurlieden, Zeekampers en Angelaren geheeten.

All those who lived [on beaches and shores] between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt,

were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen).

[ =>> Sturii, Sicambri, Anglo(Saxon)s?]

I am now reading Vandemaelle's other book "Het Beowulf-epos", which is written in a more serious, scientific style.

And next, one by Tolkien: "The Legend of Sigurd & Gudrun".

More to come.

[Otharus]

TOPOGRAPHY OF THE O.L.B. ~ part 1: SKÊNLAND

(pagenumbers: Ottema & Sandbach/ original manuscript)

GODA BURCH (SKÊNLAND) = GÖTEBORG (SWEDEN/ SVERIGE)

[075/053] ca. 2000 BC

Thâ wrdon kråfta sâmlath, thri pêlun fon Goda-his burch wrdon hja wither stonden, tha orloch bilêv.

Kât jefta Kâter-inne, alsa hête thju fâm, thêr burchfâm to Goda burch was.

Toen werden krachten verzameld, drie palen van Godasburgt werden zij wederstaan, de oorlog bleef.

Kat of Katerinne, zoo heette de priesteres, die burgtmaagd op Godasburgt was.

Then all the forces were assembled, and three hours from Godasburgt they were withstood, but war continued.

Kat or Katerine was the name of the priestess who was Burgtmaagd of Godasburgt.

[129/093] ca. 590 BC

Thi Mâgy tham sina Fryas svna hagja wilde stald-iri as Moder to Godaburch et Skênland,

mên hju wilde mâr, hju sêid-im thåt sahwersa hi Adela vpruma koste,

hi måster skolde wertha over êl Fryas land.

De Magy, die zijne Fryaszonen behagen wilde, stelde haar aan als Moeder op Godaburgt in Schoonland;

maar zij wilde meer, zij zeide hem dat, bijaldien hij Adela uit den weg ruimen konde,

hij meester zoude worden over geheel Fryas land.

The Magy, who wished to please his sons of Frya, appointed her mother of Godaburgt, in Schoonland;

but she wished for more, and she told him that if he could get Adela out of the way

he might become master of the whole of Frya's land.

LINDASBURCH(T) / LINDASNÔSE (WEST-SKÊNLAND) = LINDESNES (NORWAY/ NORGE)

[125/090] ca. 590 BC

Thêr heth er en burch ebuwad, Lindasburch hêten, vmbe dâna to wrekana vs lêth.

Daar heeft hij eene burgt gebouwd, Lindasburgt geheeten, om daar ons leed te wreken.

There he built a citadel named Lindasburgt, in order there to avenge our wrong.

[179/131] ca. 300 BC

Tha irtha bêterad was, kêm er en hêrtoga fon Lindasburch wêi, mit sin folk ånd en fâm,

thju fâm kêthe allomme: Thene Mâgy is skeldich an al-eth lêt thåt wi lêden håve.

Toen de aarde hersteld was, kwam er een hertog van Lindasburgt met zijn volk en eene maagd,

die alom uitriep: de Magy is schuldig aan al het leed, dat wij geleden hebben.

When the earth was composed there came a duke of Lindasburgt with his people, and one maiden

who cried everywhere, Magy is the cause of all the misery that we have suffered.

[199/147] ca. 300 BC

An tha sûdwester herne fon Skênland, thêr lêid Lindasburcht tonômath Lindasnôse,

thrvch vsa Apol stift, alsa in thit bok biskrêwen stât.

Aan de zuidwestelijke hoek van Schoonland, aldaar ligt Lindasburgt, toegenaamd Lindasneus,

door onzen Apol gesticht, gelijk in dit boek geschreven staat.

In the south-west point of Scandinavia there lies Lindasburgt, called Lindasnôse,

built by one [our] Apol, as is written in the book.

SKÊNLAND / NORTLAND = SCANDINAVIA (other)

[073/050-051] ca. 2090 BC

Skênland blôst, slâvona folka stôppath vppat thin klât, o Frya. (...)

Fon-t êne dêl nis nên tâl to vs ne kêmen,

men thåt ôre dêl fyl åfter to vs Skênland.

Skênland was sunnich bifolkath, ånd anda åfter-kâd thåt sunnichste fon al.

Schoonland bloost, slavenvolken stappen op uw kleed, o Frya. (...)

Van het eene gedeelte is geen bericht tot ons gekomen,

maar het ander gedeelte viel achter in ons Schoonland.

Schoonland was schaars bevolkt en aan de achterkant het spaarzaamst van al.

Schoonland (Scandinavia) blushes, an enslaved people tramples on your garment, Frya. (...)

Of the one no account has come to us,

but the other came in the back of our Schoonland,

which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part.

[075/052] ca. 2090 BC

Thêr navt flya machton wrdon vrdên, Frya wårth anhropen,

men tha Skênlandar hêdon hira rêd warlâsed.

Die niet vlieden konden, werden gedood. Frya werd aangeroepen,

maar de Schoonlanders hadden haren raad verwaarloosd.

All who could not flee away were killed. Frya was appealed to,

but the Schoonlanders (Scandinavians) had neglected her advice.

[077/055] ca. 2000 BC

Afternêi håvon hja tha strêt Kâtsgat hêten.

Naderhand hebben zij die straat het Kattegat geheeten.

This strait was afterwards called the Kattegat.

[111/079] ca. 590 BC

Thrvch Wodins dor ånd dertenhêd was thene Magy bâs wrden ovir Skênlandis astardêl.

(...) Thju Moder wildet navt wêrha, hja sprêk ånde kêth, ik sja nên frêse an sina wêpne,

men wel vmbe tha Skênlander wêr to nimmande, thrvchdam hja bastered ånd vrdêren sind.

Door Wodins dwaze dartelheid, was de Magy meester geworden over het oosterdeel van Schoonland.

(...) De Moeder wilde het niet weren, zij sprak zeggende: Ik zie geen gevaar in zijne wapenen,

maar wel om de Schoonlanden weer te nemen, omdat zij verbasterd en verdorven zijn.

Through the mad wantonness of Wodin, Magy had become master of the east part of Scandinavia.

(...) The mother would not prevent it. She said, I see no danger in their weapons,

but much in taking the Scandinavians back again, because they are so degenerate and spoilt.

[113/081] ca. 590 BC

In stêde fon tha owera to biwâkande spandon hja hjara horsa for hjara togum ånd runon nêi Skênland thâ.

Tha Skênlander, tham nêy wêron nêi that land hjarar êthla kêmon nêi tha Dênemarkum.

In plaats van de oevers te bewaken, spanden hij hunne paarden voor hunne sleden, en reden naar Schoonland.

Doch de Schoonlanders, die begeerig waren naar het land hunner voorvaderen, kwamen naar de Denemarken.

Instead of watching on the shores, they put their horses in their sledges and drove off to Scandinavia.

Then the Scandinavians, who hungered after the land of their forefathers, came to Denmark.

[125/090] ca. 590 BC

Thâ is Apol min jungere brother fon hyr nêi thêre westsyde fon Skênlând fâren.

Toen is Apol mijn jongere broeder, van hier naar de westzijde van Schoonland gevaren.

Then my younger brother, Apol, sailed from here to the west side of Schoonland.

[149/109] ca. 590 BC

Êr wêron thêr mâr wêst, men sont wi Skênland miste, send hja nêi tha berga gvngon.

Voorheen waren er meer geweest, maar sedert wij Schoonland misten, zijn zij naar de bergen gegaan.

Formerly they were more numerous, but since we lost Schoonland they have gone up to the mountains.

[179/130] ca. 300 BC

Thit skrift is mij ower Nortland jeftha Skênland jêven.

Vndera tida thåt vs land del sêg, wêre ik to Skênland.

Dit geschrift is mij over Noordland of Schoonland gegeven.

Ten tijde dat ons land neder zonk, was ik in Schoonland.

This writing has been given to me about Northland and [or] Schoonland.

When our land was submerged I was in Schoonland.

[179/131] ca. 300 BC

Sont komath tha gode Northljud vâken to Texland vmb there Moder-is rêd.

Thâ wi ne mügath hjam for nêne rjuchta Fryas mar ne halde.

Sedert dien tijd komen de goede Noormannen dikwijls op Texland om raad van de Moeder.

Doch wij kunnen hen niet voor rechte Friezen meer houden.

Since that time the good Northmen come often to Texland for the advice of the mother;

still we cannot [no longer] consider them real Frisians [Fryas].

[219/161] ca. 270 BC

Thju tâle thêra Ast Skênlandar is thrvch tha wla Mâgjara vrbrûd;

thju tâle thêra Kaltana folgar is thrvch tha smûgrige Gole vrderven.

De taal der Oost Schoonlanders is door de vuile Magyaren verdraaid;

de taal der Keltana volgers is door de smerige Golen verdorven.

The language of the East Schoonlanders has been perverted by the vile Magyars,

and the language of the followers of Kaltana has been spoiled by the dirty Gauls.

[251/208] ca. 50 BC

Tha Saxmanna brochten hju ovir hjara marka, mith tha Juttar for hju nêi Skênland

ånd alingen thêre kâd fon tha Balda-sê, mith Askar his stjûrar for hju nêi Britanja.

De Saksmannen brachten ze over hunne marken; met de Jutten voer zij naar Schoonland

en langs de kusten van de Baltische zee; met Askar zijne zeelieden voer zij naar Brittannia.

The Saxsenmen took it over to their marches. The Jutlanders brought it to Schoonland

and along the coasts of the Baltic Sea, and with Askar's mariners it was taken to Britain.

Edited March 15, 2011 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Interesting stuff, and I will await the rest.

But don't mention "Tolkien", lol.