[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

bull Abe.

It's just beyond the capacities of your mind and that makes you feel uncomfortable.

No, it's child's play.

You don't need many capacities at all, just good eyesight and basic knowledge of how to read.

Do you have any idea why linguists are not eager to take part here? It's not because of my behaviour, it's because many get tears in their eyes when they read what's been posted here under the name 'linguistics'.

[Otharus]

Do you have any idea why linguists are not eager to take part here? It's not because of my behaviour, it's because many get tears in their eyes when they read what's been posted here under the name 'linguistics'.

So will regular historians and regular geologists, maybe, but this thread is about alternative 'sciences'.

I don't think very much of regular 'linguists' anyway.

(And who used the name 'linguistics' for what I do? Not me.)

So it's not just linguists who don't join, but I don't care, just thinking out loud here and have made lots of progress in the last half year doing that. Reading again what I posted, and the intelligent replies to that, help me in the process of solving riddles, one at a time.

There's people (like you) who are good at finding things on the web that others wrote, and there's people (like Alewyn, Puzzler and me) who use their own creative minds to find answers that others didn't think of.

To you, anything new that you don't immediately understand is "crap".

"Child's play" to me is a positive qualification, as they still know how to use their imagination.

[Abramelin]

So will regular historians and regular geologists, maybe, but this thread is about alternative 'sciences'.

I don't think very much of regular 'linguists' anyway.

(And who used the name 'linguistics' for what I do? Not me.)

So it's not just linguists who don't join, but I don't care, just thinking out loud here and have made lots of progress in the last half year doing that. Reading again what I posted, and the intelligent replies to that, help me in the process of solving riddles, one at a time.

There's people (like you) who are good at finding things on the web that others wrote, and there's people (like Alewyn, Puzzler and me) who use their own creative minds to find answers that others didn't think of.

To you, anything new that you don't immediately understand is "crap".

"Child's play" to me is a positive qualification, as they still know how to use their imagination.

Oh hell, I can imagine a lot of things and my dreams can be spectacular, really.

But if you want to prove a controversial manuscript like the OLB, you will have to come up with a lot more than trying to twist every word in that book to something that may look like proof of some sort.

And btw, to be able to find things on the web that matter here, you must be creative.

Ask yourself why I am the one who did find many things (archeology), and not the rest of you?

[Otharus]

Ask yourself why I am the one who did find many things (archeology), and not the rest of you?

As for me, I'm not looking for it very much.

Apart from the bad connection here and working mostly offline anyway, I keep finding enough treasures in the OLB-text itself.

[Abramelin]

As for me, I'm not looking for it very much.

Apart from the bad connection here and working mostly offline anyway, I keep finding enough treasures in the OLB-text itself.

OK, I can understand that you problems finding things because of a bad connection.

But you will have to agree with me that archeological proof will be a lot more convincing then etymology.

And I have actively sought after archeological proof, and I did find things that came close to something resembling proof.

.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Etruscan.

Another proposal, currently pursued mainly by a few linguists from the former Soviet Union, suggests a relationship with Northeast Caucasian (or Nakh-Daghestanian) languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language

The Land of Apples...

The Proto-Northeast Caucasian language had many terms for agriculture, and Johanna Nichols has suggested that its speakers may have been involved in the development of agriculture in the Fertile Crescent.[9] They had words for concepts such as yoke, as well as fruit trees such as apple and pear that suggest agriculture was already well developed when the proto-language broke up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northeast_Caucasian

The apple imo is the biggest symbol of them all - Nyhellenia has the apples, the bucket of apples, or basket, like the symbology of the Oseberg ship burial bucket of apples, a possible food to take to the underworld - a proper interpretation or same as pomegranite. A definite symbol of the underworld whatever way you look at it - one connection I found was that it represented the Sun in Slavic religion. A source of immortality for the Norse.

Idunn's apples - Apples of Eden?, garden of Yden and her apples

In Norse mythology, the goddess Iðunn is portrayed in the Prose Edda (written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson) as providing apples to the gods that give them eternal youthfulness. English scholar H. R. Ellis Davidson links apples to religious practices in Germanic paganism, from which Norse paganism developed. She points out that buckets of apples were found in the Oseberg ship burial site in Norway, and that fruit and nuts (Iðunn having been described as being transformed into a nut in Skáldskaparmál) have been found in the early graves of the Germanic peoples in England and elsewhere on the continent of Europe, which may have had a symbolic meaning, and that nuts are still a recognized symbol of fertility in southwest England.[12]

Davidson notes a connection between apples and the Vanir, a tribe of gods associated with fertility in Norse mythology, citing an instance of eleven "golden apples" being given to woo the beautiful Gerðr by Skírnir, who was acting as messenger for the major Vanir god Freyr in stanzas 19 and 20 of Skírnismál. Davidson also notes a further connection between fertility and apples in Norse mythology in chapter 2 of the Völsunga saga when the major goddess Frigg sends King Rerir an apple after he prays to Odin for a child, Frigg's messenger (in the guise of a crow) drops the apple in his lap as he sits atop a mound.[13] Rerir's wife's consumption of the apple results in a six-year pregnancy and the Caesarean section birth of their son - the hero Völsung.[14]

Further, Davidson points out the "strange" phrase "Apples of Hel" used in an 11th-century poem by the skald Thorbiorn Brúnarson. She states this may imply that the apple was thought of by the skald as the food of the dead. Further, Davidson notes that the potentially Germanic goddess Nehalennia is sometimes depicted with apples and that parallels exist in early Irish stories. Davidson asserts that while cultivation of the apple in Northern Europe extends back to at least the time of the Roman Empire and came to Europe from the Near East, the native varieties of apple trees growing in Northern Europe are small and bitter. Davidson concludes that in the figure of Iðunn "we must have a dim reflection of an old symbol: that of the guardian goddess of the life-giving fruit of the other world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple

-----------------

The word Eve is said as Evin -

The word “Eva” is too sacred for common use, therefore men have learned to say “Evin.”

“Eva” means that sentiment which is implanted in the breast of every man in order that he may know what is right and what is wrong, and by which he is able to judge his own deeds and those of others; that is, if he has been well and properly brought up. “Eva” has also another meaning; that is, tranquil, smooth, like water that is not stirred by a breath of wind. If the water is disturbed it becomes troubled, uneven, but it always has a tendency to return to its tranquil condition. That is its nature, just as the inclination towards justice and freedom exists in Frya’s children. We derive this disposition from the spirit of our father Wr-alda, which speaks strongly in Frya’s children, and will eternally remain so. Eternity is another symbol of Wr-alda, who remains always just and unchangeable.

Even:

even (adj.)

O.E. efen "level," also "equal, like; calm, harmonious; quite, fully; namely," from P.Gmc. *ebnaz (cf. O.S. eban, O.Fris. even "level, plain, smooth," Du. even, O.H.G. eban, Ger. eben, O.N. jafn, Dan. jævn, Goth. ibns). Etymologists are uncertain whether the original sense was "level" or "alike." Used extensively in O.E. compounds, with a sense of “fellow, co-” (e.g. efeneald "of the same age;" M.E. even-sucker “foster-brother”). Of numbers, from 1550s. Modern adverbial sense (introducing an extreme case of something more generally implied) seems to have arisen 16c. from use of the word to emphasize identity ("Who, me?" "Even you," etc.) Sense of "on an equal footing" is from 1630s. Rhyming reduplication phrase even steven is attested from 1866; even break first recorded 1911. Even-tempered from 1875.

even (v.)

"to make level," O.E. efnan (see even (adj.)).

even (n.)

"end of the day," O.E. æfen, Mercian efen, Northumbrian efern (see eve).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=even'>http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=even

----

eve

"evening," O.E. æfen, with pre-1200 loss of terminal -n (which was mistaken for an inflexion), from P.Gmc. *æbando- (cf. O.S. aband, O.Fris. ewnd, Du. avond, O.H.G. aband, Ger. Abend, O.N. aptann, Dan. aften), of uncertain origin. Now superseded in its original sense by evening (q.v.). Meaning "day before a saint's day or festival" is from late 13c.

Eve

fem. proper name, from Biblical first woman, Late Latin, from Heb. Hawwah, lit. "a living being," from base hawa "he lived" (cf. Arabic hayya, Aramaic hayyin).

Like most of the explanations of names in Genesis, this is probably based on folk etymology or an imaginative playing with sound. ... In the Hebrew here, the phonetic similarity is between hawah, "Eve," and the verbal root hayah, "to live." It has been proposed that Eve's name conceals very different origins, for it sounds suspiciously like the Aramaic word for "serpent." [Robert Alter, "The Five Books of Moses," 2004, commentary on Gen. iii.20]

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=eve

The other meaning really corresponds to Eve's actions in the garden - she has to judge what is right and wrong - that is implanted inside her, in her breast - our own sense of judgement - is the meaning of Eve according to the OLB. So the OLB meaning seems to gel correctly with the Biblical meaning and also the 2nd meaning is true also.

What about ever? For ever and ever.

ever

O.E. æfre "ever, at any time, always;" no cognates in any other Germanic language; perhaps a contraction of a in feore, lit. "ever in life" (the expression a to fore is common in O.E. writings). First element is almost certainly related to O.E. a "always, ever," from P.Gmc. *aiwo, from PIE *aiw- "vital force, life, long life, eternity." (see eon). Liberman suggests second element is comparative adjectival suffix -re.

Comparable with this part, evening: even (n.)

"end of the day," O.E. æfen, Mercian efen, Northumbrian efern (see eve).

This word could possibly be ALPHA.

'Aleph is also the first letter of the Hebrew word emet, which means truth. In Jewish mythology it was the letter aleph that was carved into the head of the golem which ultimately gave it life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleph_(letter)

I'd say this word is also what Io means and stands for. aiwo - Io

Edited April 28, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

The apple imo is the biggest symbol of them all - Nyhellenia has the apples, the bucket of apples, or basket, like the symbology of the Oseberg ship burial bucket of apples, a possible food to take to the underworld - a proper interpretation or same as pomegranite

Nehallenia had a basket with apples (and a dog, and her foot on a ship), Nyhellenia (OLB) had a basket with eggs....

.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

aiwo - vital force. I think this word sounds relative to IOVI, (especially with the V sound from the Eve variation) this description of Zeus as Jupiter as used in the word JOVE - An inscription from Capua[2] to IOVI VESVVIO indicates that he was worshipped as a power of Jupiter; that is, Jupiter Vesuvius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vesuvius

Life force - OD ?? Maybe a connection.

Around Vesuvius we have this description:

The historian, Diodorus Siculus, relates a tradition that Hercules, in the performance of his labors, passed through the country of nearby Cumae on his way to Sicily and found there a place called "the Phlegraean Plain" (phlegraion pedion, "plain of fire"), "from a hill which anciently vomited out fire ... now called Vesuvius."[4] It was inhabited by bandits, "the sons of the Earth," who were giants.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Vesuvius

Giants inhabited Vesuvius. Sons of the Earth.

----------------

I'll also throw out this and I know you'll love this one Abe.

Sheshonq is Cecrops.

Sheshonq is a Libyan Meshwesh who overtook the delta of Egypt and they installed the 22nd Dynasty into Egypt. The Liberators, but unseen as that in the old Sun cults of Egypt. I've been following this line for a while now. They are probably the Athenian liberators the Saites talk about in the Atlantis story.

The Meshwesh and the Libu were allies. Sheshonq was a Libyan liberator, he's probably Father Liber or something.

If we follow the line of Libyans having blue eyes and Cecrops is indeed described as an Egyptian with blue eyes in the OLB and in myth and he came to rule in Athens after they had no Kings for 200 years after a flood. This puts him smack in the right time frame to be Cecrops.

[The Puzzler]

Nehallenia had a basket with apples (and a dog, and her foot on a ship), Nyhellenia (OLB) had a basket with eggs....

.

That's true. I did write Ny when I should have written Na but the article was about Nahellenia so that's who I meant for now, my error of writing Ny rather than Na.

The apple - Paris chose Helen, who had been born from an egg - the apple really equalled the egg.

Aphrodite is like the serpent who tempts Paris (Eve), he eats it and that's his downfall.

Here's a crossover of eggs and apples:

The Norse at equinox celebrated the feast of the goddess Iduna, bearer of the magick apples of life, symbol of the light half of the year. We get the name of the holiday from the Germanic goddess Eastre or Oestara, whose symbolism is similar to Aphrodite's, whose associations include Near-Eastern Astarte and Indian Mother Kali and whose consort is the lusty Moon-Hare.

Now isn't this odd...?

On the day before the equinox, the Greeks and Romans honored wisdom goddess Athena and her counterpart Minerva

http://www.widdershins.org/vol4iss8/03.htm

Do you see it?

The Norse people celebrated the feast of Idunna and her magical apples, the EVE before that Greeks and Romans honoured Athena.

The whole thing is wrapped up in eggs but hides apples.

Nyhellenia probably originally had eggs but then it became a better alternative to put the apples because eggs became a bit 'pagan' with all the fertility stuff.

Apples came to represent spring and love in Northern Europe where before the apples came in, they more than likely used eggs for the same thing, hence we still have the eggs at Easter - very pagan but chocolate is very tempting...

-------------------

And I think evening is from being a calm time of the day. It's evin - even - calm, still, quiet.

Edited April 28, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

OK.

As the modern English alphabet lacks the eth (ð) character,Iðunn is sometimes anglicized as Idun, Idunn or Ithun

Ithuna

I'd like to stay for more linguistics fun but need sleep.

[Abramelin]

From 6 weeks ago:

I had something even better about the Alans, yesterday, but today the site refuses to load:

http://balder.prohosting.com/shissem/alans.jpg

http://balder.prohosting.com/shissem/Hissem_Norman_Origins.html

Maybe you use another browser, and you will be lucky finding it.

The Berber/Khabyli people of northern Africa use a letter - as tattoo, and also as symbol in their flag, and it is the most important letter of their alphabet - : it's a letter from their Tamazight alphabet: the letter yaz or aza:

And I talked about it here: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=183779 :

The Berber "Z" letter is the central character of the word Amazigh, though in Berber only the consonants M Z G are written; Amazigh means "free man". The Imazighen (plural of are the free men), and this is the way all Berber peoples refer to themselves.

I know from experience that many Berber (or Kabyle) people use that sign: its the AZA (letter -Z- or yaz) and stands for "free men". Lots of Moroccans of Berber descent live here in Holland, and many use that sign on T-shirts, as jewels and tattoos. They even make flags with that sign, lol !!

Google tamazight / tifinagh, and you will know.

It stands for "Freemen" (and no doubt you will remember how the ancient Frisians considered themselves... as FREE MEN). And - according to many people's interpretation of the OLB - they created settlements in northern Africa.

Now, that 'Balder' site explains the wanderings of the Alans all over Europe and into Northern Africa, and they carried one symbol along with them (I hope the JPG image loads for you)... this letter that is now part of the Amazight/Berber alphabet.

It is how someone would write the Yule symbol in cursive/Italic style.

ALANS

Alans, Alani, Alanliao, Aorses, As, Asii, Asses, Balanjar, Barsils, Belenjers, Burtas, Halans, Iass, Iazyg, Ishkuza, Ishtek, Jass, Lan, Ostyak, Ovs, Rhoxolani, Steppe Alans, Yass, Yancai and other variations

Subdivisions and ethnic affiliates

Alans, Burtas, Rhoxolani, Wusüns, Yasses, Yazygs

650 BC-1400 AD

650 BC

Ases are first mentioned in Assirian sources as the Scythian name Ishkuza = Ish-Oguz or Ish-kiji, with the same semantic, where Ish is a variation of ethnonym As, and Oguz or kiji stand for people

500 BC

Tribe of Aderbics, part of Masguts/Massagetae, sent 40 thousand infantrymen and 2 thousand horsemen to the camp of Darius the Great at the Babylon. It is evidence of the large nomadic population living on the banks of the Uzboy. Period from 7th c. BC to 5th c. AD was flourishing for Aral-Caspian area, combining settled agricultural and tribes specializing in sheep or horse animal husbandry. Symbiosis of farmers and nomads.

300 BC

From Chinese sources Alans are listed as one of four Hunnish tribes (Xu-la, Lan, Hiu-bu, Siu-lin) most favored by kings of Eastern Huns (Mao-dun/Mete and his son Ki-ok/Kök) of 3rd century B.C. (ToOD 146). Hiu-bu and Siu-lin are Ch. coding variations for Yui tribes, Uigurs; Lan stands for Alan = Tr. alan, yalan = steppe, synonymous with Tr. yaziq = plain, plateau (Yazygs, Ases, Yases). Alt. name for Alans (probably, a W.Europe subtribe) is Gu-alan, Tr. quw alan = dry steppe; both names indicate part of clans living in steppe, while other part lives by river, mountain, forest etc. 1

1066

Many Bretons of Alanic ancestry joined William The Conqueror in the conquest of Britain, contributing military tactics inherited from their forebears, and later spread their genetic influence across Britain into Scotland and elsewhere. One of the highest frequencies of R1b Haplotype 35 anywhere in the Y-STR database is among sample from Paris, France, adjacent to Normandy, and even more so, among Americans of ”Cajun” descent. ”Cajun” is actually a colloquial contraction of the word ”Acadian” (now Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and portions of northern Maine). Majority of early French Canadian settlers of both Acadia and Quebec were of Norman or Breton origin. Many Scottish families who exhibit DYS393=12 marker are as likely to be descended from the Alans who arrived with the Normans, as from the Sarmatians who came with the Romans

http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/70_Dateline/alan_dateline_En.htm

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27815&PID=626383

Yep, lego etymology is a nice game, hahaha!!

++++++++++++

EDIT:

According to the poem by Willem van Haren, the Alans, the people that lived in Frisia when Friso arrived there from India (Frisia was called "Land of the Alans" before it became "Frisia") originally came from the far east where they lived in arid regions:

"Verre Oostelyk van hier bewonend dorre streken"

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/hare004geva01_01/hare004geva01_01_0023.php

.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Ask yourself why I am the one who did find many things (archeology), and not the rest of you?

Answer nr.2:

Too busy with other things, like:

I would like to start discussing this article:

The Oera Linda Boek - A literary forgery and its paper

by A. Kardinaal, E. v.d. Grijn, H. Porck

published in: IPH Congress Book 16 (2006), p. 177-185

Abe and Alewyn have the PDF

(Still expecting your answer to this.)

and:

Some additional notes on the Over de Linden family

For details see http://fryskednis.blogspot.com/2011/04/over-de-linden-genealogy.html

Generation I ~ Jan Andries-son Over de Linden (ca.1718-1794)

These are the main issues I have been working on lately, the language exercises I do in between when I have some extra time.

[The Puzzler]

OK, I can understand that you problems finding things because of a bad connection.

But you will have to agree with me that archeological proof will be a lot more convincing then etymology.

And I have actively sought after archeological proof, and I did find things that came close to something resembling proof.

.

And I will give you your Smiley stamp after playlunch.

Look Abe, we have all contributed massively here, in different ways and in a way, yes, archaeological proof would be fantastic, if we actually know what we are looking for firstly. I don't think it's overly way more important than finding out what the OLB ACTUALLY says and not what many interpretations have it say to correctly understand the whole story.

You expect to find a huge empire with this writing all over Europe but I do not interpret it that way. To me, it appears that from 2000BC they were made smaller and smaller until it was completely lost. So much would have been dug up and/or found in the last 2000 years that we don't even know about! For like 150 years we have studied archaeology properly. You have missed 2000 years worth of finds for a start. All the cities built over areas that will never be excavated or they are 6 feet underground. Amsterdam itself is 40 metres below sea level from what I read.

The archaeologists have no real idea. I read all this stuff, the amount of things unknown or unexplained is staggering, their guesses are what you are reading. The linguists make up words and call them proto-Indo-European.

And I'll say it again and again if I have to, the Church is EXTREMELY POWERFUL. I can just see it when the farmer takes him some items he dug up in his field c. 1200AD, here look Friar, I found a pagan goblet with some Latin style writing on it, I can just see the Friar running off to the head history recorder with it...yeah right. More like melt it down first, ask questions later, or never and better still, ask questions and you'll meet the whipping stick.

I just watched some of the mini series Pillars of the Earth, it's about the building of a huge cathedral in England in the time of Maud, (Matilda) and her Anarchy against her cousin to rule England through their ties to William the Conqueror. You have no idea maybe of the rule of the Church, it was extraordinary, I have no idea, I have to watch shows like this to understand the control they had in those times.

No, archaeology is not the be all and end all of this I'm afraid, the answer to the OLB is equally in unlocking it's secret language that will tell us who the Frisians really were and who everyone else is.

Edited April 29, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Answer nr.2:

Too busy with other things, like:

(Still expecting your answer to this.)

and:

These are the main issues I have been working on lately, the language exercises I do in between when I have some extra time.

Don't worry, I really did not forget about the PDF, but I am busy trying to find additional info (and not being very succesful at it).

[Abramelin]

And I will give you your Smiley stamp after playlunch.

Look Abe, we have all contributed massively here, in different ways and in a way, yes, archaeological proof would be fantastic, if we actually know what we are looking for firstly. I don't think it's overly way more important than finding out what the OLB ACTUALLY says and not what many interpretations have it say to correctly understand the whole story.

You expect to find a huge empire with this writing all over Europe but I do not interpret it that way. To me, it appears that from 2000BC they were made smaller and smaller until it was completely lost. So much would have been dug up and/or found in the last 2000 years that we don't even know about! For like 150 years we have studied archaeology properly. You have missed 2000 years worth of finds for a start. All the cities built over areas that will never be excavated or they are 6 feet underground. Amsterdam itself is 40 metres below sea level from what I read.

The archaeologists have no real idea. I read all this stuff, the amount of things unknown or unexplained is staggering, their guesses are what you are reading. The linguists make up words and call them proto-Indo-European.

And I'll say it again and again if I have to, the Church is EXTREMELY POWERFUL. I can just see it when the farmer takes him some items he dug up in his field c. 1200AD, here look Friar, I found a pagan goblet with some Latin style writing on it, I can just see the Friar running off to the head history recorder with it...yeah right. More like melt it down first, ask questions later, or never and better still, ask questions and you'll meet the whipping stick.

I just watched some of the mini series Pillars of the Earth, it's about the building of a huge cathedral in England in the time of Maud, (Matilda) and her Anarchy against her cousin to rule England through their ties to William the Conqueror. You have no idea maybe of the rule of the Church, it was extraordinary, I have no idea, I have to watch shows like this to understand the control they had in those times.

No, archaeology is not the be all and end all of this I'm afraid, the answer to the OLB is equally in unlocking it's secret language that will tell us who the Frisians really were and who everyone else is.

Puzz, if they find ONE other manuscript written in OLB script, or an inscription on stone with that script, you will know as I do that this endless discussion will turn a 180 degrees.

Same thing if the dating of the OLB had resulted in a date of the 13th century; all the socalled 'suspects' (Haverschmidt, Verwijs, Over de Linden, Halbertsma) would have dropped from the discussion.

And the same thing if they find the remnants of one of the many Fryan citadels, citadels which have been described in great detail in the OLB.

I know about the power of the Church, and I know they did their best to irradicate every trace of the Aztec civilization, but as we know, they failed. And we know from history the Christian monks have done their best to burn any ancient Aztec manuscript, kill those who kept following the 'ancient ways' and convert others to the Christian belief.

And of course those who stole anything left of that culture, or melted any silver and golden artifact they could lay their hands on, but still.. they (archeologists) find artifacts up to this day.

[The Puzzler]

Azi in Persian relates to the word fire. The term below for dragon begenning with azi would be fire something, like fire breather. Also the land of Azer as in Azerbaijan - it means basically land of fire - Land of Azer. You pointed this azi out in Amazigh - azi - Atlas's mother is often named as Asia - Azer - fire possibly. Into Libya we have the Azer too - the Berbers displaced them.

In historical times, the Berbers expanded south into the Sahara (displacing earlier populations such as the Azer and Bafour), and have in turn been mainly culturally assimilated in much of North Africa by Arabs, particularly following the incursion of the Banu Hilal in the 11th century.

The Azer - these people are now the West African Soninke and had the great Ghana Empire at one time, through all of history they have traded gold, diamonds and salt. They practice circumcision. Right on the West Coast of Africa where Herodotus had Atlanteans marked on the map we see of his interpretation.

The name stands out to me:

And of the fifth pair he gave to the elder the name of Azaes, and to the younger that of Diaprepes.

I recalled that the Azers were in this area because of my intense research into Atlantis.

If anything the ezza letter looks like a Runic number 18 but apparently they are unrelated...

In Azerbaijan I read they were fire-worshippers so were named by the Persians as such but the info may have been dubious, sounds pretty logical though.

Notice now that Sabazios also has the word AZI in it. He's most likely from Thrace and went into Anatolia with the Phrygians.

Transference of Sabazios to the Roman world appears to have been mediated in large part through Pergamum.[7] The naturally syncretic approach of Greek religion blurred distinctions. Later Greek writers, like Strabo in the first century CE, linked Sabazios with Zagreus, among Phrygian ministers and attendants of the sacred rites of Rhea and Dionysos.[8] Strabo's Sicilian contemporary, Diodorus Siculus, conflated Sabazios with the secret 'second' Dionysus, born of Zeus and Persephone,[9] a connection that is not borne out by surviving inscriptions, which are entirely to Zeus Sabazios.[10] The Christian Clement of Alexandria had been informed that the secret mysteries of Sabazius, as practiced among the Romans, involved a serpent, a chthonic creature unconnected with the mounted skygod of Phrygia: "‘God in the bosom’ is a countersign of the mysteries of Sabazius to the adepts". Clement reports: "This is a snake, passed through the bosom of the initiates”.[11]

Much later, the Byzantine Greek encyclopedia, Sudas (10th century?), flatly states

"Sabazios... is the same as Dionysos. He acquired this form of address from the rite pertaining to him; for the barbarians call the bacchic cry 'sabazein'. Hence some of the Greeks too follow suit and call the cry 'sabasmos'; thereby Dionysos [becomes] Sabazios. They also used to call 'saboi' those places that had been dedicated to him and his Bacchantes... Demosthenes [in the speech] 'On Behalf of Ktesiphon' [mentions them]. Some say that Saboi is the term for those who are dedicated to Sabazios, that is to Dionysos, just as those [dedicated] to Bakkhos [are] Bakkhoi. They say that Sabazios and Dionysos are the same. Thus some also say that the Greeks call the Bakkhoi Saboi."[12]

In Roman sites, though not a single temple consecrated to Sabazius, the rider god of the open air, has been located,[13] small votive hands, typically made of copper or bronze, are often associated with the cult of Sabazios. Many of these hands have a small perforation at the base which suggests they may have been attached to wooden poles and carried in processions. The symbolism of these objects is not well known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

I reckon this cult was on Crete. I have a book here, I could photograph the picture, its an old book, it has a drawing by Arthur Evans of on Crete a scene he drew, it shows 2 women and one is holding the other one's hand and that woman has a terrified look on her face, while around them on the floor is scattered hands...? It always stuck with me, I thought, what's going on here, is this woman going to cut off the other womans hand? In a sacrifice maybe..so it's odd that I now find this is the cult of Sabazios - a fire worshipping group, with snakes and hands. Dionysus also rescues Ariadne too so his connection as Sabazios in Crete actually makes sense.

It's very likely imo that the cult of Sabazios also was in Libya and the ancient Azer AND Amazigh have a connection to fire as well.

The word comparison might be free and possibly noble, simply from the relationship with the fire, flame, hearth, sun, whatever, if Fire is Sabazios and he is also Dionysus you have them both, Dionysus is always Liberty.

Somehow the worship of this fire must have liberated you imo. The (important) lamp, the flame that always had to be lit and kept so and looked after in temples is what bought you freedom and liberty.

Delphi was the common hearth of all Greeks, their central fire - so it's likely that Troy was also an Azi people, Troy burned and they worshipped Apollo.

The first Jews who settled in Rome were expelled in 139 BCE, along with Chaldaean astrologers by Cornelius Hispalus under a law which proscribed the propagation of the "corrupting" cult of "Jupiter Sabazius," according to the epitome of a lost book of Valerius Maximus:

Gnaeus Cornelius Hispalus, praetor peregrinus in the year of the consulate of Marcus Popilius Laenas and Lucius Calpurnius, ordered the astrologers by an edict to leave Rome and Italy within ten days, since by a fallacious interpretation of the stars they perturbed fickle and silly minds, thereby making profit out of their lies. The same praetor compelled the Jews, who attempted to infect the Roman custom with the cult of Jupiter Sabazius, to return to their homes."[15]

By this it is conjectured that the Romans identified the Jewish Yahveh Sabaoth ("of the Hosts") as Sabazius.

This mistaken connection of Sabazios and Sabaoth has often been repeated. In a similar vein, Plutarch maintained that the Jews worshipped Dionysus, and that the day of Sabbath was a festival of Sabazius.

Who says it's a mistake????

If the Jews worshipped Jupiter Sabazius - who was a sky God, and his hand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_of_God_(art)

Wouldn't you think the Hand of God would be THIS hand???

Then that would make the Sabbath easily relatable to Sabazius - because he would be God.

A mistaken connection I'm sure...

You gotta love the reason the Chaldean astrologers were kicked out of Rome, well I did, I thought it was hysterical actually.

...since by a fallacious interpretation of the stars they perturbed fickle and silly minds, thereby making profit out of their lies.

Edited April 29, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Sky father - dyeus - Zeus - hmmm

I'll go back to another post:

aiwo - vital force. I think this word sounds relative to IOVI, (especially with the V sound from the Eve variation) this description of Zeus as Jupiter as used in the word JOVE - An inscription from Capua[2] to IOVI VESVVIO indicates that he was worshipped as a power of Jupiter; that is, Jupiter Vesuvius.

The VITAL FORCE of Vesuvius in this indication.

If I looked at dyeus and played lego with it I could come up with y-eu - io - remember I got IO out of it - take the d and s off and we have y-eu or y-oo or even ai-yo etc - so if you play enough aiwo that sounds like IOVI - the dyeus as sky father is probably the Vital force and that is probably what dyeus really means.

Sabazios as Saba-zios is the Saba life force, how do we know the Saba doesn't equate to Hebrew Shabbat - 'to cease'. To cease the life force = death. Sabazios the name could equate to this in a strange way. Death also brings release in many instances - Jesus is one - the death of one releases from bondage the many.

Enough for me for today. Ciao.

[Abramelin]

Puzz, I never suggested the Yazh sign of the Berber was a (Nordic) rune sign.

But I did find what I was looking for, although there are many who think the next guy is fair game, lol.

OK, for starters, a pic (copied from the pdf):

The pdf (with all the 6-spoked wheels you ever encountered on the web):

SHORT HISTORY OF THE “SUN OF THE ALPS” / THE HUNGARIAN ALANS IN AFRICA

http://www.michelangelo.cn/download/la%20provincia%20di%20varese%20INGLESE.pdf

And the site of this Michelangelo:

http://michelangelo.cn/index.php?arguments=dynamic&idPagina=dec2e2952&preferredLang=uk

I will bet that if this Michelangelo reads about the OLB and that poem by Willem van Haren (about Friso, and the "Land of the Alans" which was the original name of Frisia), he will put some of those signs in the Netherlands too !

++

Oh, I forgot: you know what those Alans loved to wear? A Phrygian cap/hat... heh.

.

.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I have repeatedly said that Joost Halbertsma - one of the main suspects of creating the OLB in the 19th century - had analyzed this poem by Willem van Haren), and here it is (from 1829):

http://books.google.nl/books?id=tZZAAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=Joost+halbertsma+gangariden&source=bl&ots=Sc8FKtE9PP&sig=lZdgBzhLnA8BCxbnE3yM3BXbUM4&hl=nl&ei=ABe7TZypOIf5sgblxOj3BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q&f=false

It's from his work about the Van Haren family:

LINK

....and those who are able to read it, I advice you to download it as PDF (12.9 MB)

For those who don't speak/read Dutch, alas, it is written using 19th century Dutch spelling, so Google Translator or BableFish will not give you an understandable translation (a help will be that the -f- at the start of some words is actually an -s-).

But even those who are able to read it will be bored to death, like Otharus already said.

So scroll down to page 145 (using the original numbering of the book, not the pdf page numbers).

But beware: you will have to wade though a truelly boooooring analyses, and French, Greek, and Latin texts, and whatnot.

Bezum, Otharus, McKay, and Alewyn, and all those other people who are able to read Dutch, or are Dutch, please tell me: what is your impression of this guy Halbertsma?

I could also show you his letters to Grimm so you would understand how fanatic this guy was about anything Frisian (language, history, legends, and so on).

Just consider this: he was called "Mister Fryslan".

He went to very great lenghts to put Friesland and Frisian heritage on the world map. He was in contact with German, Danish, and English and other linguists and historians, and did his utter best to promote Friesland.

I am addicted to nicotine and ethanol, he was addicted to anything Frisian.

His brother invented a national anthem for the Frisians.

If there was anyone motivated to create a manuscript like the OLB, or be the inspirator of it, then it was Halbertsma.

So don't come to me, and say, "Goffe Jensma said this and that" (about Haverschmidt). I think he is very wrong.

+++

And I hope that those following this thread will remember I once quoted from a Dutch PDF about this Halbertsma, that he was able to translate foreign ( =non-Frisian) legends/sagas/fairy tales into Frisian in a way that caused many Frisians to be convinced it were authentic Frisian legends.

(Note: one of the main reasons I love this site is that I can edit my posts till my eyes pop out and my fingertips turn blue, LOL!!)

.

Edited April 29, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Puzz, I never suggested the Yazh sign of the Berber was a (Nordic) rune sign.

But I did find what I was looking for, although there are many who think the next guy is fair game, lol.

OK, for starters, a pic (copied from the pdf):

The pdf (with all the 6-spoked wheels you ever encountered on the web):

SHORT HISTORY OF THE “SUN OF THE ALPS” / THE HUNGARIAN ALANS IN AFRICA

http://www.michelangelo.cn/download/la%20provincia%20di%20varese%20INGLESE.pdf

And the site of this Michelangelo:

http://michelangelo.cn/index.php?arguments=dynamic&idPagina=dec2e2952&preferredLang=uk

I will bet that if this Michelangelo reads about the OLB and that poem by Willem van Haren (about Friso, and the "Land of the Alans" which was the original name of Frisia), he will put some of those signs in the Netherlands too !

++

Oh, I forgot: you know what those Alans loved to wear? A Phrygian cap/hat... heh.

.

.

I never said YOU suggested it. I suggested it after I read how it wasn't related.

If the symbol is the life force - it really makes sense it would be converted to 18 anyway.

18 is such a divisable number that makes symbolic numbers. 3 x 6 or 2 x 9 or 2 x 18 = 36 hrs or 4 x 18 is 72.

Note also the signs of Wralda are just that - they are 3 circles of 6 pieces each = 18

I'll do a new post in relation to the continuing Alans saga.

[The Puzzler]

Puzz, I never suggested the Yazh sign of the Berber was a (Nordic) rune sign.

But I did find what I was looking for, although there are many who think the next guy is fair game, lol.

OK, for starters, a pic (copied from the pdf):

The pdf (with all the 6-spoked wheels you ever encountered on the web):

SHORT HISTORY OF THE “SUN OF THE ALPS” / THE HUNGARIAN ALANS IN AFRICA

http://www.michelangelo.cn/download/la%20provincia%20di%20varese%20INGLESE.pdf

And the site of this Michelangelo:

http://michelangelo.cn/index.php?arguments=dynamic&idPagina=dec2e2952&preferredLang=uk

I will bet that if this Michelangelo reads about the OLB and that poem by Willem van Haren (about Friso, and the "Land of the Alans" which was the original name of Frisia), he will put some of those signs in the Netherlands too !

++

Oh, I forgot: you know what those Alans loved to wear? A Phrygian cap/hat... heh.

.

.

They made a much earlier entrance into Libya than 300BC, the Alans are just a new wave of Iranian Aryan people to arrive in Libya.

You might see that the earliest symbol shown there in the pdf is from the Vinca culture - I showed a connection between the Tartaria tablets, a similar variation of people and Crete - I'm pretty sure that Minoan Crete may have had influx of people of Romania and Hungary. Then we see at Akrotiri like I said connection to Africa.

I would estimate the first wave of Aryans into Libya would have been around 2000-1800BC. It's probably where the evacuees took off to when they knew Thera was to erupt. Maybe even Troy was settled the same way.

The symbol is in Egypt c.1290BC.

These people were Scythians and the ancient tales of Scythians into Egypt could come from this.

If the Alans held all the ancient history of when they were Scythians and Massagetae Arians and how some of them became Persian they could pass this history on to their descendants as their own. Is this what you're getting at?

[The Puzzler]

So, I thought, I wonder if these Magyar of Hungary were actually Magi - then the Magi would be the Magyar who would be Magi (who I suppose are the Magyar of the OLB)

Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism).

http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/medes.html

[Soul Kitchen]

So, I thought, I wonder if these Magyar of Hungary were actually Magi - then the Magi would be the Magyar who would be Magi (who I suppose are the Magyar of the OLB)

Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism).

http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/medes.html

Zoroastrianism!!! I never thought I'd actually hear that come up as something relevant to the discussion! I only know of it because of its connection to that "Thus Spake Zaestruthra" piece that was part of the 2001 space odyssey soundtrack.

You know, the one that goes

duuuuun

duuuuuun

duuuuuuuun

DUN DUN

dundun dundun dundun dundun

Duuuun

Duuuun

Duuuuun

DUUN DUUN

and the monkey hits the bone and the bone goes into space and turns metaphorically into a space ship, you remember!

[The Puzzler]

The Asha - the asa - the truth - another word for asa. Azi was fire - azer

Herodotus, in his mid-5th century B.C.E. account of Persian residents of the Pontus, reports that Persian youths, from their fifth year to their twentieth year, were instructed in three things – to ride a horse, to draw a bow, and to speak the Truth.[61]

He further notes that:[61]

the most disgraceful thing in the world [the Perses] think, is to tell a lie; the next worst, to owe a debt: because, among other reasons, the debtor is obliged to tell lies.

In Achaemenid Persia, the lie, druj, is considered to be a cardinal sin, and it was punishable by death in some extreme cases. Tablets discovered by archaeologists in the 1930s[62] at the site of Persepolis give us adequate evidence about the love and veneration for the culture of truth during the Achaemenian period. These tablets contain the names of ordinary Persians, mainly traders and warehouse-keepers.[63] According to Professor Stanley Insler of Yale University, as many as 72 names of officials and petty clerks found on these tablets contain the word truth.[64] Thus, says Insler, we have Artapana, protector of truth, Artakama, lover of truth, Artamanah, truth-minded, Artafarnah, possessing splendour of truth, Artazusta, delighting in truth, Artastuna, pillar of truth, Artafrida, prospering the truth and Artahunara, having nobility of truth. It was Darius the Great, who laid down the ordinance of good regulations during his reign. King Darius' testimony about his constant battle against the lie is found in cuneiform inscriptions. Carved high up in the Behistun mountain on the road to Kermanshah, Darius the Great (Darius I) testifies:[65]

I was not a lie-follower, I was not a doer of wrong ... According to righteousness I conducted myself. Neither to the weak or to the powerful did I do wrong. The man who cooperated with my house, him I rewarded well; who so did injury, him I punished well.

Darius had his hands full dealing with large-scale rebellion which broke out throughout the empire. After fighting successfully with nine traitors in a year, Darius records his battles against them for posterity and tells us how it was the lie that made them rebel against the empire. At Behistun, Darius says:

I smote them and took prisoner nine kings. One was Gaumata by name, a Magian; he lied; thus he said: I am Smerdis, the son of Cyrus...One, Acina by name, an Elamite; he lied; thus he said: I am king in Elam... One, Nidintu-Bel by name, a Babylonian; he lied; thus he said: I am Nebuchadnezzar, the son of Nabonidus. King Darius then tells us, The Lie made them rebellious, so that these men deceived the people.[66]

Then an advice to his son Xerxes, who is to succeed him as the great king:

Thou who shalt be king hereafter, protect yourself vigorously from the Lie; the man who shall be a lie-follower, him do thou punish well, if thus thou shall think. May my country be secure!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C5%A1a

The Magi did try a coup on Persia.

The truth is the asa/asha. It was what Persians were all about - truth frees - isn't that Otharus signature - it does - see, truth frees, liberati veritos!!

The people of the truth, who did not lie, could find freedom, through truth - maybe the life force too, the fire - the azi.

Fire is the physical creation that is the domain of Aša and in which the Amesha Spenta of "Best Truth" (Asha Vahishta) is immanent. Fire is "grandly conceived as a force informing all the other Amesha Spentas, giving them warmth and the spark of life."

Subject to context, aša/arta- is also frequently translated as "right working" or "[that which is] right". The word then (cf. Bartholomae's[15] and Geldner's[16] translations as German language "Recht") has the same range of meaning of "right" as in the English language: truth, righteousness, rightfulness, lawfullness, conformity, accord, order (cosmic order, social order, moral order).

These various meanings of "right" are frequently combined, for instance as "the inexorable law of righteousness,"[17] or as "the eternal fitness of things that are in accord with the divine order."[18]

As (the hypostasis of) regularity and "right working", aša/arta- is present when Ahura Mazda fixed the course of the sun, the moon and the stars (Yasna 44.3), and it is through aša that plants grow

RIGHT hand of God. Persians - Aryans.

So, the symbol of truth, freedom and knowing that which is right, combined with an element of fire, a life force - which is what I think the Azi is in Imazighen. Hence that is what the symbol means tattooed on the Berber girls head imo.

------------

In Zoroastrian cosmogony and cosmology, which—though alluded to in the Gathas—is only systematically described in Zoroastrian tradition (e.g. Bundahishn 3.12), aša is the second (cf. Yasna 47.1) of the six primeval creations realized ("created by His thought") by Ahura Mazda. It is through these six, the Amesha Spentas that all subsequent creation was accomplished.

Asa (truth is fire and it frees the soul) Cremation is probably very Persian - it would free you from any sin, purify you even and free your soul.

So, generally, all this asa, azi, azer and so forth in the area of Azerbaijan is relative to this concept imo.

Yes, the 6 spokes might be part of this equation.

It all sounds very much like the Persians followed a Wralda/Fryan thought, especially in regards to slavery...

The practice of slavery in Achaemenid Persia was generally banned, although there is evidence that conquered and/or rebellious armies were sold into captivity.[46] Zoroastrianism, the de facto religion of the empire, explicitly forbids slavery,[47] and the kings of Achaemenid Persia, especially the founder Cyrus the Great, followed this ban to varying degrees, as evidenced by the freeing of the Jews at Babylon, and the construction of Persepolis by paid workers.

The vexilloid of the Achaemenid Empire was a gold falcon on a field of crimson.[48][49]

The Achaemenid empire left a lasting impression on the heritage, and the cultural identity of Asia and Middleast as well as influencing the development, and structure of the future empires. In fact the Greeks and later on the Romans copied the best features of the Persian method of governing the empire, and vicariously adopted them.[50]

Georg W. F. Hegel in his work "The Philosophy of History" introduces the Persian Empire as the first empire that passed away and its people as the first historical people in history. According to his account;[51]

"The Persian Empire is an Empire in the modern sense – like that which existed in Germany, and the great imperial realm under the sway of Napoleon; for we find it consisting of a number of states, which are indeed dependant, but which have retained their own individuality, their manners, and laws. The general enactments, binding upon all, did not infringe upon their political and social idiosyncrasies, but even protected and maintained them; so that each of the nations that constitute the whole, had its own form of constitution. As light illuminates everything – imparting to each object a peculiar vitality – so the Persian Empire extends over a multitude of nations, and leaves to each one its particular character. Some have even kings of their own; each one its distinct language, arms, way of life and customs. All this diversity coexists harmoniously under the impartial dominion of Light... a combination of peoples – leaving each of them free. Thereby, a stop is put to that barbarism and ferocity with which the nations had been wont to carry on their destructive feuds.”

The famous American orientalist, Professor Arthur Upham Pope (1881–1969) says:[52] “The western world has a vast unpaid debt to the Persian civilization!”

In Yasna 37.1, in a list of what are otherwise all physical creations, aša takes the place of fire.

--------

The Alans could have taken a 300BC version of this concept into Libya and the Berbers took it on but it appears to me to be a more ancient concept than that in Libya.

Arta is proto-Indo-Iranian

aza/asa/azer may transfer to aja or ija in Slavic because I know their fire Goddess is Gabija

ija is getting nearer to Freya or Freja

Frya may actually be the asha - the truth, the Light = freedom - the fire - frya - to fry ie; heat over fire.

Her heat stuff was moderate - medium - level - smoth - even.

[Abramelin]

Let's not go too far into another ally again.

I started about the Alans because of the 18th century poem by Willem van Haren, a poem critically analyzed by Joost Halbertsma, one of the possible suspects of creating/inspirating the OLB.

OK, and then I read this Dutch poem, and read that the original name for Frisia was "Land der Alanen" or Land of the Alans. That they were landlubbers, that they were poor people, not very developed, and originally came from an arid area in the far east. That they were Zoroastrians... well, the rest you know.

But what I never told you, or anyone else here, is that I also read (either by him or by Halbertsma) that he sometimes changed a personal name to make it fit better into his epic poem. So everytime I found something about these Alans, I kept thinking that maybe it was nothing but another wild goose chase, based on a just a name.

Willem van Haren based his poem on older Frisian sources (Hamconius, Scharlensis), and I know I posted a pdf which mentioned 8th century old Saxon sources on which these sources in their turn were based.

It was Otharus who waded through that pdf, and posted he found these 8th century Saxon sources. I can try to find the pdf again, but it will take some time.

The thing is this: Van Haren created a poem based on older Frisian sources. The sources mention a legend about Friso coming from India and going to the North Sea and establishing a kingdom there. But... other Frisian sources from the same time tell us Friso and his brothers came from Jerusalem, and descended from Shem/Noah... (google Frisia/Zebulon, and you will end up on a Christian site, britam.com that I posted about, a site copied throughout the internet by Bible/Christian sites http://www.britam.org/zebulon.html ).

The Frisians wanted to create an ancient myth of origin, one starting in India/Persia, another in Jerusalem, and in their turn they stole/borrowed from even older, Saxon myths. From what I read these Saxon myths tell us the Saxons/Germans came from Troy, where they fought alongside the Troyans.

What struck me about the Alans is that they were pretty much everywhere (from China to Western Europe and Northern Africa), were a force to be reckoned with, settled all over Eurasia, and were (very probably) Zoroastrians before they were Christianized. They may even have been the source for the Arthurian legends (because they venerated a sacred sword stuck in a rock, and because they had settled en masse in Brittanny, France, and also crossed the Channel to settle in England and Scotland, and stood at the base of the later knights.

Then I found out - first through that 'Balder' site and then through that site from a Michelangelo - that they used a 6-spoked wheel like the Yule Wheel from the Frya people of the OLB, and a symbol (symbolizing a man, arms/head up, 3 lower members down) that was the same as the Yazh symbol of the Berber people, meaning "Free men" (Yazh or similar names under which the Alans were also very known).

Now what I want to know is what these older Saxon sources had to say about these Alans. What is known by Greek and Roman sources is that the Alans were feared and respected, had blond hair and blue eyes, were nomads for much of their time, lived on horseback, that they were a Sarmatian tribe, and so on. Btw, Herodotus says the Sarmatians descended from a mix of Scythians and Amazons, resulting in a tribe. the Sarmatians, where women and men had equal roles (the women fought along with the men) and rights.

So, if I am able to find some of these older, 8th century, sources, then I may be able to find out why the much later Frisian historiographers created their Friso myths, and why the again later Willem van Haren incorporated the Alans into his epic poem about the history of Frisia/Friesland.

And finally, what inspired 19th century people to write the Oera Linda Book.... in which everything the former Frisian historiographers wrote was turned upside down, and made the (ancient) Frisians stand out even more.

.

Edited April 30, 2011 by Abramelin