[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

It reminds me also of that word in the Avesta was it? The Fravashi or such. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fravashi

I know the V should be a U so it may not be like it at all, but still...

BUT as this word: Friausius (from *frija 'kind', or from *fri

(h)alsio 'free'?) .

it would connect to Frisians imo.

To Mercury, liberator...?

Suppose to be Wodan too. A Germanic God, seems, that the OLB says that the real Woden was deified by the Magyar priests after he went with them, I read the Germans really only came down into Germany from Scandinavia c. 300BC so the Germans may hold the ancient stories of when they were originally in Scandinavia...so the later Germanic Gods, may have been instituted by the Magyar also at an earlier time, which also contained the sacrificial parts of it all. That Uppsala had some sacrifice going on there.

Temple of Uppsala http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_at_Uppsala

Thor, whom Adam refers to as "the mightiest," sits in the central throne, while Wodan (Odin) and Fricco (Freyr) are seated on the thrones to the sides of him.

and this

Adam details sacrificial practices held at the temple; Adam describes that nine males of "every living creature" are offered up for sacrifice, and tradition dictates that their blood placates the gods. The corpses of the nine males are hung within the grove beside the temple. Adam says that the grove is considered extremely sacred to the heathens, so much so that each singular tree "is considered to be divine," due to the death of those sacrificed or their rotting corpses hanging there, and that dogs and horses hang within the grove among the corpses of men. Adam reveals that "one Christian" informed him that he had seen seventy-two cadavers of differing species hanging within the grove. Adam expresses disgust at the songs they sing during these sacrificial rites, quipping that the songs are "so many and disgusting that it is best to pass over them in silence."[1]

Adam describes that near the temple stands a massive tree with far-spreading branches, which is evergreen both in summer and winter. At the tree is also a spring where sacrifices are also held. According to Adam, a custom exists where a man, alive, is thrown into the spring, and if he fails to return to the surface, "the wish of the people will be fulfilled."

[Abramelin]

I think it meant "Frisian" or even "Frisians" and nothing else.

I played a bit with the letters in FRIAVSIO, and assumed that the -V- would have been dropped soon, and that the name would become FRIASIO.

And we have a bingo:

Hugoniis Grotii Annales et historiae de rebus Belgicis - by Hugo Grotius,Blaeu

http://books.google.nl/books?id=i1CHluIm6F8C&pg=PA323&lpg=PA323&dq=friasio&source=bl&ots=SZoimo_2Oa&sig=sT6DTUBIFSWvZnOdPM9vOtTRLw0&hl=nl&ei=PB6MTuivD9Ht-gaZi_GIBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGcQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=friasio&f=false

Now read this sentence:

Nec magis Batavos, quanquam nova apud hostes rerum imago & multa invitamenta quaerebantur, veteris proposîti pœnitebat. Clarescente in dies novi conjugii fama perlatae ad Belgas literae, misso Friasio, quibus imperium in ipsos Isabellae transcribebatur.

Heh, and now those who can read Latin will slap their thighs laughing, but I have to use Google Translator, even though it makes spaghetti out of everything:

Batavians no more, though the image and many new things with the allurements of the enemy sought, repented of the Old Plan. Clarescente passed to the reputation of marriage in the new days of the letter of the Belgae, by sending the Friasio, to whom the command in the transcribed them was Isabella.

LOL, ok, that looked like crap, so I did it word for word (can't be worse then what Google made of it):

No more Batavians, though new with the enemy things the image of & many the allurements of sought, old plan repented. Being on light / Being clear (?? clarescente) in the new days of marriage reputation passed to the letter of the Belgae, by sending the Friasio, which/whose government in them was transcribed (bij?) Isabella

Anyway, this is about the Batavians, the Belgae, and the... Friasio.

[The Puzzler]

While still in their youth, Odin and his brothers were said to have participated in the Trojan war fighting for the Trojans. This rumor may have started because Æsir sounds a lot like Asia.

If so Odin must have lived around 1200BC. He fought for the Trojans at Asaland, which Snorri says was Troy.

Troy might only be a copy story of an earlier story of when the real Woden lived, the one spoken of in the OLB...

Woden:He is in all likelihood identical with the Germanic god identified as "Mercury" by Roman writers[11] and possibly with the regnator omnium deus (god, ruler of all) mentioned by Tacitus in his 1st century work Germania.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%8Dden

The story of Troy really has no naval battle though but Wodin himself was no Naval, he had been in charge of troops.

Who knows really on that one?

The word áss, Proto-Germanic *ansuz, is believed to be derived from Proto-Indo-European *ansu-, related to Sanskrit asura and Avestan ahura, both from Indo-Iranian *ásura, with the root *n̥su-. Indo-Iranian *n̥su- can be considered a zero-grade equivalent of Germanic *ansuz-, and with it could be reconstructed to derive from Proto-Indo-European *h2ensu-.

As/Os, Nordic-Germanic words for God.

These Aesir could be connected to Ahura or Assur too, so they might be an Assyrian presence, which is likely. The Aesir are probably Assyrs - Assyrian men who think they are Gods, powerhungry war-mongers. Troy was very priestly with haruspices etc, it seems like a priestly caste has continued these things on, so going with that, once Troy fell, people left the area. Odin's followers left and went North to Sweden. Priapus, Priam, lots of children, very fertile...?

Grimm further notes a resemblance to the name of the gods of the Etruscans reported by Suetonius and Hesychius, æsares or æsi. He notes that Etruscan religion, as well as Greek (Dodekatheon) and Roman polytheism, supposed a circle of twelve superior beings closely "bound" together, as it were forming a fasces, in Rome known as the dii consentes paralleling the Eddic expressions höpt and bönd "bond" for the Æsir.

If Odin was at Troy, he could have been known as an Aesir, part of the Aesi - so the Etruscans may have known this term and it's the same as what spread north to Sweden.

Get this though: This is Osiris' names in Egyptian: Osiris = (Asar, Asari, Aser, Ausar, Ausir, Wesir, Usir, Usire or Ausare)

Then I'm thinking about his name, Os-iris lol - God eye, top seeing eye God or something, iris being part of your eye - then I find his Hieroglyphic is actually a chair above an EYE! Then Horus is the eye, the famous seeing eye of Egypt.

You can see the glyph here:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=mx5IaCC9KJYC&pg=PA186&lpg=PA186&dq=ashur+is+osiris&source=bl&ots=JatR6CQC1D&sig=Tgt4-LilPNbp8FEQB3a60lJgNDU&hl=en&ei=Iv-LTr-_GPGXiQe-sOCGBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=ashur%20is%20osiris&f=false

Chief eye - the watcher. God's Eye.

This also says that Osiris might have come into Egypt as Marduk of Babylon.

Osiris had much in common with ASHUR of Assyria and Marduk of Babylon it says. Apis and Osiris are connected too as Serapis. That's who Christians worshipped in Egypt.

The pole or tree trunk was adorned at his festivals - looking again like Horagalles imo.

Then Herodotus has reports of Egyptians being at Colchis, whether they got there thru Sesostris is not the point, the people are there, they have been seen with his own eyes. The Egyptians at Colchis more than likely are the people of the Sun God, Helios (Ra) but also have Osiris. Thinking about it more I can think of a parallel even, that Aeetes son is chopped into many pieces by Medea, as Osiris is also chopped up. I doubt Egyptians were there before c. 600BC anyway but I also think these myths are later than thought too and that many are only created from ancient strands c. 600BC at earliest.

The Magyar are like Egyptian priests and have idols, ra cys, solar cows - as I said before I also think the golden calf is an early version of Jesus incarnation, Dionysus was one too and as I thought about it, I Googled it and it's not so far-fetched in thinking the Minotaur is also a form of Jesus. Also, if the Magi are some kind of Magyar this knowledge should not be new to them, that is the foretelling of a birth of a new golden calf.

[The Puzzler]

I think it meant "Frisian" or even "Frisians" and nothing else.

I played a bit with the letters in FRIAVSIO, and assumed that the -V- would have been dropped soon, and that the name would become FRIASIO.

And we have a bingo:

Hugoniis Grotii Annales et historiae de rebus Belgicis - by Hugo Grotius,Blaeu

http://books.google.nl/books?id=i1CHluIm6F8C&pg=PA323&lpg=PA323&dq=friasio&source=bl&ots=SZoimo_2Oa&sig=sT6DTUBIFSWvZnOdPM9vOtTRLw0&hl=nl&ei=PB6MTuivD9Ht-gaZi_GIBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGcQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=friasio&f=false

Now read this sentence:

Nec magis Batavos, quanquam nova apud hostes rerum imago & multa invitamenta quaerebantur, veteris proposîti pœnitebat. Clarescente in dies novi conjugii fama perlatae ad Belgas literae, misso Friasio, quibus imperium in ipsos Isabellae transcribebatur.

Heh, and now those who can read Latin will slap their thighs laughing, but I have to use Google Translator, even though it makes spaghetti out of everything:

Batavians no more, though the image and many new things with the allurements of the enemy sought, repented of the Old Plan. Clarescente passed to the reputation of marriage in the new days of the letter of the Belgae, by sending the Friasio, to whom the command in the transcribed them was Isabella.

LOL, ok, that looked like crap, so I did it word for word (can't be worse then what Google made of it):

No more Batavians, though new with the enemy things the image of & many the allurements of sought, old plan repented. Being on light / Being clear (?? clarescente) in the new days of marriage reputation passed to the letter of the Belgae, by sending the Friasio, which/whose government in them was transcribed (bij?) Isabella

Anyway, this is about the Batavians, the Belgae, and the... Friasio.

I dunno. It says it's possibly meaning Frigg. I only agree it is connected to Frisians in the way that the term Frya and this Friasio - I think the term free as in liberator could be possible.

The next part is interesting: In Empel there is the remains of a temple to Hercules Magusanus. This was the Romans' Latin name for the supreme god of the Batavians, Donar. Stone votives and broken weapons as symbolic offerings are at the location.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_in_the_Low_Countries

That Hercules Magusanus you showed is a Thor.

[Abramelin]

I dunno. It says it's possibly meaning Frigg. I only agree it is connected to Frisians in the way that the term Frya and this Friasio - I think the term free as in liberator could be possible.

The next part is interesting: In Empel there is the remains of a temple to Hercules Magusanus. This was the Romans' Latin name for the supreme god of the Batavians, Donar. Stone votives and broken weapons as symbolic offerings are at the location.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_in_the_Low_Countries

That Hercules Magusanus you showed is a Thor.

The Latin quote in my former post is from a Dutch guy (Hugo Grotius, 17th century) who wanted to use the example of the ancient Batavians and Frisians for the Dutch people fighting against the oppression of the Spaniards.

=

The Herculus I showed is from this PDF: http://www.hetgroenewoud.com/hgw_documenten/VVVBrochureRomeinenFietsroute.pdf

Either they are wrong or you are wrong.

And Hercules/Herakles is always depicted as a naked guy carrying a club.

Thor most often carried a hammer (and lightning/sparks), aka Donar (think 'thunder').

"Dies Mercurii" = day of Mercury = Wednesday = Wodan's day.

"Dies Jovis" = day of Jupiter = Donar/Thor's day = Thursday (Dutch: Donderdag).

.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I have talked a lot about the Vikings as a people who - and I am quite convinced - must have inspired those who created the OLB, and transplanted a lot of Viking history to a point at least 2000 years before the Viking era.

The Frisians were closely related to the Vikings, must have looked quite similar in appearence and most probably spoke a closely related language (together with the Angles).

I have also said - quoting from a Dutch pdf - that it is thought that the Vikings may have learned of piracy and raids by these same Frisians.

But the Frisians (or better, Frisii) started a lot earlier than I first thought:

Dutch:

De opstand bezorgde de Frisii een enorme reputatie bij de overige Germaanse volkeren en men trok zich van de Romeinen niet veel meer aan. Groepen Friezen bezetten landbouwgrond die voor de legioenen was gereserveerd en weigerden de nieuwe nederzettingen op te geven. Dit werd ook geholpen doordat Caligula en na hem Claudius I zich concentreerden op de verovering van Brittannië. De Chauken en Frisii maakten hier gebruik van en wierpen zich op de piraterij.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romeinen_in_Friesland

English:

The uprising gave the Frisii a tremendous reputation among the other Germanic peoples, and they couldn't care less about the Romans any longer. Frisian bands occupied agricultural land that was reserved for the legions and refused to give up their new settlements. This was also aided by Caligula, and Claudius after him, both focussing on the conquest of Britain. The Chaucii and the Frisii took advantage of this and started with piracy.

That was before Drusus was able to reconquer the Frisian area in 47 AD.

.

Edited October 5, 2011 by Abramelin

[Knul]

Whoever built the Brittenburg, he had the advantage of an island in the mouth of the River Rhine and a huge mass of stones of the former Roman lighthouse. The same happened in the mouth of the Schelde (called: Het Steen), though it is said that the building is younger. Besides, above the entrance of Het Steen you can still see a similar wallstone as we discussed for the Brittenburg. Just the Jezuiets cut off the penis.

Did you read the publications:

J.G. Ottema, Leeuwarden, De Middelzee en het Oera Linda Boek, n.d.

J.G. Ottema, Geschiedkundige aanteekeningen en ophelderingen bij thet Oera Linda Boek, 1878 (which contains similar information on the Middelzee).

Ottema gives:

Fryasburch - Texel

Stavia - Stavoren

Medeasblik - Medemblik

Forana - Vroonen

Lydasburch - Leiden

Walhallagara - Walcheren

Minnagardaforde - Munster

Katsburch - Kassel

Nyfryasburch - Freiburch

Aken - Aken

Godasburch - Gothenburch

Buda - Buda (pest)

Kadik - Cadix

Ljudgarda - Leeuwarden

Lindahem ?

I cannot believe Buda - Budapest as it was in the territory of the Magjars. What do you think of Bude-Huxte or Huxte-Bude (Hamburg) not far from Munster either ?

Lindahem could be identified as Linda-wrden (- Wolvega).

Do you agree with Katsburch - Kassel and Nyfryasburch - Freiburg ?

I am still puzzling about Lumkamakia. Did you discuss this before ?

Edited October 5, 2011 by Knul

[Abramelin]

Whoever built the Brittenburg, he had the advantage of an island in the mouth of the River Rhine and a huge mass of stones of the former Roman lighthouse. The same happened in the mouth of the Schelde (called: Het Steen), though it is said that the building is younger. Besides, above the entrance of Het Steen you can still see a similar wallstone as we discussed for the Brittenburg. Just the Jezuiets cut off the penis.

Did you read the publications:

J.G. Ottema, Leeuwarden, De Middelzee en het Oera Linda Boek, n.d.

J.G. Ottema, Geschiedkundige aanteekeningen en ophelderingen bij thet Oera Linda Boek, 1878 (which contains similar information on the Middelzee).

Ottema gives:

Fryasburch - Texel

Stavia - Stavoren

Medeasblik - Medemblik

Forana - Vroonen

Lydasburch - Leiden

Walhallagara - Walcheren

Minnagardaforde - Munster

Katsburch - Kassel

Nyfryasburch - Freiburch

Aken - Aken

Godasburch - Gothenburch

Buda - Buda (pest)

Kadik - Cadix

Ljudgarda - Leeuwarden

Lindahem ?

I cannot believe Buda - Budapest as it was in the territory of the Magjars. What do you think of Bude-Huxte or Huxte-Bude (Hamburg) not far from Munster either ?

Lindahem could be identified as Linda-wrden (- Wolvega).

Do you agree with Katsburch - Kassel and Nyfryasburch - Freiburg ?

I am still puzzling about Lumkamakia. Did you discuss this before ?

I discussed Lindahem... a place that was never found again after a stormflood. Well, I found it, and it was in Germany, and there was a legend around that German place, and it said it had vanished...

Buxtehude (not Budehuxte as far as I know)... hmm.. I was thinking about Baduhenna http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baduhenna and switch -a- for -u- so you will get Buda-henna. I actually made that error often when I was googling something about Baduhenna (secret forest of the Goddess Badu).

Lydasburch = Leidscheburg

Katsburg = Kassel... could be.

All the other ones you mentioned we did indeed discuss.

But not Lumkamakia; I have no idea.

Like that woman, Gosa Makonta.

Sorry, I dont have much time now.

[The Puzzler]

The Latin quote in my former post is from a Dutch guy (Hugo Grotius, 17th century) who wanted to use the example of the ancient Batavians and Frisians for the Dutch people fighting against the oppression of the Spaniards.

=

The Herculus I showed is from this PDF: http://www.hetgroenewoud.com/hgw_documenten/VVVBrochureRomeinenFietsroute.pdf

Either they are wrong or you are wrong.

And Hercules/Herakles is always depicted as a naked guy carrying a club.

Thor most often carried a hammer (and lightning/sparks), aka Donar (think 'thunder').

"Dies Mercurii" = day of Mercury = Wednesday = Wodan's day.

"Dies Jovis" = day of Jupiter = Donar/Thor's day = Thursday (Dutch: Donderdag).

.

Well, I'm just repeating what this said: In Empel there is the remains of a temple to Hercules Magusanus. This was the Romans' Latin name for the supreme god of the Batavians, Donar.

That Heracles Magusanus was the Roman's latin name for Donar.

No, Thor is always a combo of Heracles and Zeus.

Tacitus says explicity that Thor is Heracles: Tacitus refers to the god Odin as "Mercury", Thor as "Hercules", and the god Týr as "Mars",

On the outside it may seem they have nothing in common.

[The Puzzler]

"The Greeks tell many tales without due investigation" according to Herodotus. Also don't forget the Heracles the Greeks told stories about was not the same immortal ancient God Heracles of Egypt nor Tyre.

The account which I received of this Hercules makes him one of the twelve gods. Of the other Hercules, with whom the Greeks are familiar, I could hear nothing in any part of Egypt. That the Greeks, however (those I mean who gave the son of Amphitryon that name), took the name from the Egyptians, and not the Egyptians from the Greeks, is I think clearly proved, among other arguments, by the fact that both the parents of Hercules, Amphitryon as well as Alcmena, were of Egyptian origin. Again, the Egyptians disclaim all knowledge of the names of Neptune and the Dioscuri, and do not include them in the number of their gods; but had they adopted the name of any god from the Greeks, these would have been the likeliest to obtain notice, since the Egyptians, as I am well convinced, practised navigation at that time, and the Greeks also were some of them mariners, so that they would have been more likely to know the names of these gods than that of Hercules. But the Egyptian Hercules is one of their ancient gods. Seventeen thousand years before the reign of Amasis, the twelve gods were, they affirm, produced from the eight: and of these twelve, Hercules is one.

In the wish to get the best information that I could on these matters, I made a voyage to Tyre in Phoenicia, hearing there was a temple of Hercules at that place, very highly venerated. I visited the temple, and found it richly adorned with a number of offerings, among which were two pillars, one of pure gold, the other of emerald, shining with great brilliancy at night. In a conversation which I held with the priests, I inquired how long their temple had been built, and found by their answer that they, too, differed from the Greeks. They said that the temple was built at the same time that the city was founded, and that the foundation of the city took place two thousand three hundred years ago. In Tyre I remarked another temple where the same god was worshipped as the Thasian Hercules. So I went on to Thasos, where I found a temple of Hercules which had been built by the Phoenicians who colonised that island when they sailed in search of Europa. Even this was five generations earlier than the time when Hercules, son of Amphitryon, was born in Greece. These researches show plainly that there is an ancient god Hercules; and my own opinion is that those Greeks act most wisely who build and maintain two temples of Hercules, in the one of which the Hercules worshipped is known by the name of Olympian, and has sacrifice offered to him as an immortal, while in the other the honours paid are such as are due to a hero.

The Greeks tell many tales without due investigation, and among them the following silly fable respecting Hercules:- "Hercules," they say, "went once to Egypt, and there the inhabitants took him, and putting a chaplet on his head, led him out in solemn procession, intending to offer him a sacrifice to Jupiter.

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.2.ii.html

---------------

Also, don't forget this guy, Horagalles, a Sami God, whose name sounds like Heracles and is like Thor and his symbol was the rainbow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horagalles

A pillar of Horagalles I guess.

Edited October 6, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Well, I'm just repeating what this said: In Empel there is the remains of a temple to Hercules Magusanus. This was the Romans' Latin name for the supreme god of the Batavians, Donar.

That Heracles Magusanus was the Roman's latin name for Donar.

No, Thor is always a combo of Heracles and Zeus.

Tacitus says explicity that Thor is Heracles: Tacitus refers to the god Odin as "Mercury", Thor as "Hercules", and the god Týr as "Mars",

On the outside it may seem they have nothing in common.

Yes, you were repeating what it says, but apparently you didn't check the links...

This is your quote:

In Empel there is the remains of a temple to Hercules Magusanus. This was the Romans' Latin name for the supreme god of the Batavians, Donar. Stone votives and broken weapons as symbolic offerings are at the location.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology_in_the_Low_Countries

..then click on the reference, where they must have got it from: [18] :

The sanctuary of Magusanus, the supreme god of the Batavians, at Empel (between the modern town of Den Bosch and the river Meuse) is one of the very few religious monuments from Germania Inferior that can be interpreted with a fair degree of certainty.

Still, the nature of the god is difficult to understand. However, the fact that he was likened to Hercules, the role model of the ideal Roman man, suggests that Magusanus was something of a macho. On the other hand, there are indications that this god was responsible for fertility. In the sanctuary of Elst, which was probably dedicated to Magusanus as well, a suovetaurilia has been found, a type of sacrifice that the Roman only offered to fertility gods. Moreover, the name Magusanus means "old young man" - in other words, a god with the wisdom of old age and the vitality of youth. The god of Empel had a complex personality.

http://www.livius.org/ga-gh/germania/empel.html

As you must have seen in your quote, the name "Empel" was a link to a Wiki page about Empel, and this is what it says:

Points of interest

Empel was the ancient site of a temple to Hercules Magusanus. This was the Latin name of the supreme god of the Batavians. Stone votives and broken weapons as symbolic offerings are at the location.[2] Roman ruins are in the region.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empel

So, someone sneaked in "Donar", and that's it.

And the guy I posted a picture of was "Hercules Magusanus" and looks like the identical twin of the Roman/Greek Hercules.

And then you say this:

"Tacitus says explicity that Thor is Heracles: Tacitus refers to the god Odin as "Mercury", Thor as "Hercules", and the god Týr as "Mars"

This is what *I* posted:

According to this pdf (see top of page 51) it is now certain that the complete text on the statue of Ubbergen should be:

[D]EO.MERCVRI(o)/ FRIAVSIO/ IMPLICIVS / INGENVS / V.S.L.M

http://dare.ubn.kun.nl/bitstream/2066/26376/1/26376___.PDF

So... the Latin text mentions Mercury, which is Wodan/Odin, like Tacitus said.

++++

EDIT:

We do not know the name of the Batavian god or goddess who was venerated at Elst, but it is possible that the Romans identified him with their Hercules, because the remains of a statuette have been found, which show the club of this demigod. Since the supreme god of the Batavians, Magusanus, was equaled to Hercules, it is very tempting to think that Magusanus was venerated in the Elst temple. However, Hercules is not really known as a fertility god.

http://www.livius.org/ga-gh/germania/elst.html

EDIT:

I think I see the problem: Thor is equal to Hercules (Tacitus), but that doesn't mean any Hercules found in Germania is equal to Thor. They found "a" statue of Hercules, a statue clearly depicting the Roman/Greek Hercules.

.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

"The Greeks tell many tales without due investigation" according to Herodotus. Also don't forget the Heracles the Greeks told stories about was not the same immortal ancient God Heracles of Egypt nor Tyre.

The account which I received of this Hercules makes him one of the twelve gods. Of the other Hercules, with whom the Greeks are familiar, I could hear nothing in any part of Egypt. That the Greeks, however (those I mean who gave the son of Amphitryon that name), took the name from the Egyptians, and not the Egyptians from the Greeks, is I think clearly proved, among other arguments, by the fact that both the parents of Hercules, Amphitryon as well as Alcmena, were of Egyptian origin. Again, the Egyptians disclaim all knowledge of the names of Neptune and the Dioscuri, and do not include them in the number of their gods; but had they adopted the name of any god from the Greeks, these would have been the likeliest to obtain notice, since the Egyptians, as I am well convinced, practised navigation at that time, and the Greeks also were some of them mariners, so that they would have been more likely to know the names of these gods than that of Hercules. But the Egyptian Hercules is one of their ancient gods. Seventeen thousand years before the reign of Amasis, the twelve gods were, they affirm, produced from the eight: and of these twelve, Hercules is one.

In the wish to get the best information that I could on these matters, I made a voyage to Tyre in Phoenicia, hearing there was a temple of Hercules at that place, very highly venerated. I visited the temple, and found it richly adorned with a number of offerings, among which were two pillars, one of pure gold, the other of emerald, shining with great brilliancy at night. In a conversation which I held with the priests, I inquired how long their temple had been built, and found by their answer that they, too, differed from the Greeks. They said that the temple was built at the same time that the city was founded, and that the foundation of the city took place two thousand three hundred years ago. In Tyre I remarked another temple where the same god was worshipped as the Thasian Hercules. So I went on to Thasos, where I found a temple of Hercules which had been built by the Phoenicians who colonised that island when they sailed in search of Europa. Even this was five generations earlier than the time when Hercules, son of Amphitryon, was born in Greece. These researches show plainly that there is an ancient god Hercules; and my own opinion is that those Greeks act most wisely who build and maintain two temples of Hercules, in the one of which the Hercules worshipped is known by the name of Olympian, and has sacrifice offered to him as an immortal, while in the other the honours paid are such as are due to a hero.

The Greeks tell many tales without due investigation, and among them the following silly fable respecting Hercules:- "Hercules," they say, "went once to Egypt, and there the inhabitants took him, and putting a chaplet on his head, led him out in solemn procession, intending to offer him a sacrifice to Jupiter.

http://classics.mit.edu/Herodotus/history.2.ii.html

---------------

Also, don't forget this guy, Horagalles, a Sami God, whose name sounds like Heracles and is like Thor and his symbol was the rainbow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horagalles

A pillar of Horagalles I guess.

"They said that the temple was built at the same time that the city was founded, and that the foundation of the city took place two thousand three hundred years ago."

So that means 2300 + 400 = 2700 BC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

So in case you want to suggest by means of Herodotus' words that this temple had anything to do with the OLB Tyre, then there is something wrong about the date.

==

Early scholars noted the similarities between Horagalles and the Norse thunder-god Thor and that some Sami called him Thoron or simply Thor, and were unsure which had influenced which.[13] But the name Horagalles is now interpreted as a loanword from the Old Norse Þórr Karl, "the Old Man Thor,"[1][14] "Thor, the Elder,"[15] or "Thor fellow,"[16] "Thor Karl" (possibly from Norwegian Torrekall),[17][18] or Swedish Torsmannen, "the thunder man."[19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horagalles

So you're saying that "Thor Karl" changed into Roman "Hercules" and the Saami "Horagalles"?

Hmmm...

.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

What should be noted is that Horagalles other name is Tiermes and it says this:

The names of the god vary considerably between regions, with Tiermes and variants being commonly used among northern Sami and Horagalles and variants among southern Sami,[4][5] but unlike Horagalles, the name Tiermes is not a loanword; it is related to Torym, found in Siberia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiermes

It's all getting closer to Tor and Thor.

The closest I can find to this Siberian Torym is possibly through Polish Torem - which equates to Thorr

Polish[edit] PronunciationIPA: [t̪ɔr]

audio (file)

[edit] Etymology 1[edit] Noun tor m.

1.track, course, path

2.rail track

3.lane (a part of a sports track)

4.trajectory

Declension[show ▼] declension of tor singular plural

nominative tor tory

genitive toru torów

dative torowi torom

accusative tor tory

instrumental torem torami

locative torze torach

vocative torze tory

[edit] Etymology 2From Latin thorium < Old Scandinavian Thorr

[edit] Noun tor m.

1.thorium

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tor

This article mentions a Hanti Num-Torym possibly Num, a supreme God of Finno-ugric people. Apparently a Samoyed Sky God is Num.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=m-bF5dKgML4C&pg=PA370&lpg=PA370&dq=Siberian+word+Torym&source=bl&ots=ED7CnnCqs2&sig=JosfSiP6kGyt7i0yBgqPauXI7D0&hl=en&ei=FqGNTsPjKqyQiAfwwfGgDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Some Lapps also had a thunder god called Tiermes or in some places Horagalles, and other ruler sky gods such as Radien or Vearalden, whose sacred sites were marked by a stytto, the symbol of a world tree or pillar that reached up to the North Star. The Finns also had such a pillar. Several of the Lapp sky gods have been compared to the Samoyed sky god Num.

Read more: Finno-Ugric mythology - haldi, stytto, sampo, iso tammi, iso harka, Kalevala - Sky, God, World, Peoples, Earth, and Myths http://www.faqs.org/cultures/pages/5384/Finno-Ugric-mythology.html#ixzz1a0OkEP95

What I say is these Gods existed long, long ago are are the originals for other religions. The practices of these shaman are very old and all through the whole of Russia and surrounds, I don't think they have taken them up, I think they spread them, maybe even 10,000 years ago into Egypt and Libya. Migrating peoples, leaving no trace. Seidis, which sounds like Poseidon who had blue eyes, a rock, like Mt Atlas, Pole Stars etc...

Their most common physical appearance is northern European with blond hair and blue eyes like Finns or Scandinavians.

All this is common in myths of the Mediterranean.

Among other roles, the Sami Shaman, or noaidi, enabled ritual communication with the supernatural[92] through the use of tools such as drums, chants, and sacred objects.[93] Some practices within the Old Sami religion included natural sacred sites such as mountains, springs, land formations, as well as man-made ones such as petroglyphs and labyrinths.

I was saying 'no trace', or very little, especially thousands of years ago, when they migrated or wandered around.

Fenni seems to have been a form of the proto-Germanic word finne, denoting "wanderers" or "hunting folk".[19] Tacitus describes the Fenni as follows:[20]

"In wonderful savageness live the nation of the Fenni, and in beastly poverty, destitute of arms, of horses, and of homes; their food, the common herbs; their apparel, skins; their bed, the earth; their only hope in their arrows, which for want of iron they point with bones. Their common support they have from the chase, women as well as men; for with these the former wander up and down, and crave a portion of the prey. Nor other shelter have they even for their babes, against the violence of tempests and ravening beasts, than to cover them with the branches of trees twisted together; this a reception for the old men, and hither resort the young. Such a condition they judge more happy than the painful occupation of cultivating the ground, than the labour of rearing houses, than the agitations of hope and fear attending the defense of their own property or the seizing that of others. Secure against the designs of men, secure against the malignity of the Gods, they have accomplished a thing of infinite difficulty; that to them nothing remains even to be wished."

This description is of a lifestyle much more primitive than that of the medieval Sami, who were pastoralists living off herds of reindeer and inhabiting sophisticated tents of deer-hide. But the archaeological evidence suggests that the proto-Sami and Proto-Finns had a lifestyle more akin to Tacitus' description

I'm not looking for a genetics debate but I can't wash over the fact that Sami's and Berbers share a gene from around 7000BC and that Libyans are mentioned as being part of early Greek lines.

Alessandro Achilli and colleagues noted that the Sami and the Berbers share U5b1b, which they estimated at 9,000 years old, and argued that this provides evidence for a radiation of the haplogroup from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe

Berbers arriving in Africa from the Franco-Cantabrian area, if so, would have already carried with them the knowledge of spiritual shamanism, most likely of the bull and horse from that area, since this would have been the realm they knew. The OLB is saying how these Magyar are like Egyptian priests, telling us they are most likely the same people.

[Abramelin]

So, from you posts I get that the Saami had a loanword "Horagalles" from the Norse, and a (Siberian?) "Tiermes" with no etymological connection with anything "Thor".

(That part you quoted from Latin is about the chemical element Thorium that was indeed named after "Thor". But not by the ancient Romans, lol.)

And then we get to a source, Tacitus, a source which a guy like Halbertsma could have known by heart...

And I'll let Cormac discuss genetics with you.

[The Puzzler]

So, from you posts I get that the Saami had a loanword "Horagalles" from the Norse, and a (Siberian?) "Tiermes" with no etymological connection with anything "Thor".

(That part you quoted from Latin is about the chemical element Thorium that was indeed named after "Thor". But not by the ancient Romans, lol.)

And then we get to a source, Tacitus, a source which a guy like Halbertsma could have known by heart...

And I'll let Cormac discuss genetics with you.

I really hope he doesn't bother, I've heard it all before - nevertheless, it's there in black and white, they share genes.

I know Thorium is an element, it's etymology 2 - the first one is track, etc, and Torem, OK, I see I wrote equates to Thorr when that is etymology 2 not 1 - confusing I know, sorry.

The thing is here we have the Greek Heracles often said his twelve labours are the equal of the Zodiac - the path of the Sun makes a track through the Zodiac.

I'm not really sure, you have twisted it around so I barely understand it anyway now, it's too late and i have the start of a headache, not that important anyway for this thread but I might follow it through some more at a later time.

[cormac mac airt]

Recent studies have provided the following:

Coalescence time estimates

for several subclusters (U5a1, U5a1a1b, U5a1d, U5a2, U5a2c,

U5b1, and U5b2) correspond to the end of the LGM, ,18 kya,

while the remaining U5a and U5b1 subclusters are characterized

by lower coalescence ages (Table 1). Therefore, a post-LGM reexpansion

of populations from refugial zones between the

Pyrenees, the Balkans and the Ukraine, commencing at

,15 kya, may explain the pattern observed [9].

Source: The Peopling of Europe from the Mitochondrial Haplogroup U5 Perspective

.........Boris Malyarchuk, Miroslava Derenko, Tomasz Grzybowski, Maria Perkova, Urszula Rogalla, Tomas

Vanecek, Iosif Tsybovsky (Received February 12, 2010; Accepted March 30, 2010; Published April 21, 2010)

Meaning that if the Franco-Cantabrian refuge is still considered to play a part in the population of Europe after the LGM, it no longer is considered the 'sole' point of origin for same and is NOT directly responsible for the distribution of U5 and its sub-clades.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Quite frankly it doesn't even make sense that that an 8000BC gene can show anything to do with a LGM at 18,000BC imo. It's a good way to explain it away though.

I'm not even that concerned whether it was a whole group of them or one or a thought, which is what I'm more interested in following - it would only take a very small group of shaman from Europe to be in Libya for the knowledge of the Pole Star and associated ideas of rock Gods and trinities, creators etc to spread, because the priests and shamans would have kept it all alive. Then their children would have been the only ones who would have been 'anybody' - so they are probably the Gods - just as Wodan and his son were made into Gods by the Magyar, who were like Egyptian priests.

That's my main point, I don't even care if it was one early type of shaman Sami priest who entered Libya at 8000BC, it only takes one man to change everything, look at Noah - the religion of the northern shaman and Egypt (as well as ancient Libya moreso) has the same ways and has come in to Africa from the North imo.

Edited October 7, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Doesn't it seem too obvious to anyone that all our Christian holidays are placed over pagan ones, not just that but the whole structure is actually based in ancient shamanistic, astrological ways...?

Doesn't anyone wonder WHY Santa lives in Lapland? With the Sami's and the reindeer?

Doesn't anyone get the message of the OLB, you know the part you should "GIVE YOUR BEST ATTENTION TO"?

Anyway, I am too busy to go over the same thing, I'll wait until some new info comes up, otherwise I feel I'm just repeating myself and going off topic.

[granpa]

Herakles is also a name for Chronos (not cronus)

[granpa]

http://www.theoi.com/Protogenos/Hydros.html

II) THE ORPHIC COSMOGONY

Orphica, Theogonies Fragment 54 (from Damascius) (trans. West) (Greek hymns C3rd A.D. - C2nd B.C.) :

"Originally there was Hydros (Water), he [Orpheus] says, and Mud, from which Ge (the Earth) solidified : he posits these two as first principles, water and earth . . . The one before the two [Thesis], however, he leaves unexpressed, his very silence being an intimation of its ineffable nature. The third principle after the two was engendered by these--Ge (Earth) and Hydros (Water), that is--and was a Serpent (Drakon) with extra heads growing upon it of a bull and a lion, and a god’s countenance in the middle; it had wings upon its shoulders, and its name was Khronos (Unaging Time) and also Herakles. United with it was Ananke (Inevitability, Compulsion), being of the same nature, or Adrastea, incorporeal, her arms extended throughout the universe and touching its extremities.

Edited October 7, 2011 by granpa

[The Puzzler]

I had this on my notebook so I'll add it anyway as well. I was trying to work out who this Heracles might be, not the one of Greek myth but the real one, whom the Egyptians say were one of the 12 Gods, so he would not be one of the 8, or Herodotus would have said 8, he must be one of the extra 4 - here's a list of the 12 Gods and they have Khonsu with a question mark next to Hercules and a statement they are unsure who he might be as a God...

Ptah

Hephaestus

II.3.1, 112.1

Horus

Apollo

II.144.2

Osiris

Dionysus

II.42.2, 144.2

Isis

Demeter (Io)

II.59.2 (II.41.2)

Set/Apophis

Typhon

II.144.2, 156.4

Bubastis (Bast)

Atremis

II.137.5

Neith

Athena

II.28.1, 59.3

Amun

Zeus

II.42

Hathor

Aphrodite

II.42

Khonsu (?)

Herakles

II.42

Min

Pan

II.46.4

Apis

Epaphus

II.153.1

From the coast inland as far as Heliopolis--just about the same distance as along the road from the altar of the Twelve Gods in Athens to the temple of Olympian Zeus at Pisa--the country is broad and flat, with much swamp and mud.79

I was told that this Heracles was one of the twelve gods. Of the other Heracles, with whom the Greeks are familiar, I could get no information anywhere in Egypt. Nevertheless, it was not the Egyptians who took the name Heracles from the Greeks. The opposite is true: it was the Greeks who took it from the Egyptians--those Greeks, I mean, who gave the name to the son of Amphitryon.80

Nevertheless, the Egyptians have had a god named Heracles from time immemorial. They say that seventeen thousand years before the reign of Amasis the twelve gods were produced from the eight; and of the twelve they hold Heracles to be one.81

In Greece, the youngest of the gods are thought to be Heracles, Dionysus, and Pan; but in Egypt Pan is very ancient, and one of the 'eight gods' who existed before the rest; Heracles is one of the 'twelve' who appeared later, and Dionysus one of the third order who were descended from the twelve.

3. The Egyptian deity to whom Herodotus refers when mentioning Heracles is uncertain. De Sélincourt suggests this may be Khons, the son of Amun and Mut at Thebes (Herodotus. The Histories. Trans. Aubrey de Sélincourt. New York: Penguin Books, 1972, 146, note 1).

There is a God I think might be Heracles and this is HEKA...

Heka

In Egyptian mythology, Heka (also spelt Hike) was the deification of magic, his name being the Egyptian word for magic. According to Egyptian writing (Coffin text, spell 261), Heka existed "before duality had yet come into being." The term "Heka" was also used for the practice of magical ritual. The Coptic word "hik", is derived from the Ancient Egyptian. (Sounding like Hyksos - maybe the magic men)

What stood out of him to Heracles was his actual distinctive nakedness, like Heracles is always shown, NOT like in a phallic state (like Hermes), just always naked.

Magic, you don't get more shaman than that.

He is a son of atum of Heliopolis.

The name Heliopolis is of ancient Greek origin, meaning city of the sun as it was the principal seat of sun worship to Re-Atum or Atum-Re, "the evening sun". Originally, this ancient city was known by the Egyptians as Iunu, from the transliteration ?wnw,[5] probably pronounced *Awanu, and means "(Place of) Pillars"

Heliopolis was a place of Pillars, you could have the Pillars of Heka...

Now just because one lot of Gods is at Thebes and one at Heliopolis I don't think discounts him being part of the 12 main Gods.

Heliopolis is also a place of Ra - the Sun - a sun city.

Colchis, if founded by Egyptians, should be based on Atum and Ra - the high priests of Ra - should be Helios, a Sun God.

Helios and ra/Colchis was an Egyptian colony - his son was Heka, magic itself - like Medea and all the myths have magic in Colchis.

Baalbek, or the Syrian Heliopolis, was a priest-colony from its Egyptian namesake and the original source of the Ennead pantheon.

_____________

PS: thanks granpa, the text is interesting.

_____________

Sorry I have no links, I cut and paste stuff as I go along and jump from page to page, sometimes I forget to get them but they are general pages Heka in Wiki etc.

Edited October 7, 2011 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

Quite frankly it doesn't even make sense that that an 8000BC gene can show anything to do with a LGM at 18,000BC imo. It's a good way to explain it away though.

It's NOT a gene, it's a HAPLOTYPE. And there's nothing saying the origin and migration happened c.18,000 BP, but that it has happened SINCE c.18,000 BP. It you're going to bring genetics into the conversation, at least TRY to keep up.

And speculating on it being a "Sami priest" is meaningless, considering there is nothing to support that claim, much like the existance of Noah.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

It's NOT a gene, it's a HAPLOTYPE. And there's nothing saying the origin and migration happened c.18,000 BP, but that it has happened SINCE c.18,000 BP. It you're going to bring genetics into the conversation, at least TRY to keep up.

And speculating on it being a "Sami priest" is meaningless, considering there is nothing to support that claim, much like the existance of Noah.

cormac

Speculating on anything is meaningless, imagine where we'd be if no one had speculated on things. Of course it's meaningless, what a stupid thing to say. Noah was a Sami priest, a Nioide imo. Yeah, I'll pop up some proof in a jiffy...sheesh.

[cormac mac airt]

Speculating on anything is meaningless, imagine where we'd be if no one had speculated on things. Of course it's meaningless, what a stupid thing to say. Noah was a Sami priest, a Nioide imo. Yeah, I'll pop up some proof in a jiffy...sheesh.

And what part of "considering there is nothing to support that claim" did you NOT understand? Saying something is true, just because you say it is, does not make it true. That's the point. If you don't want to discuss genetics, fine, stop using it in a failed attempt to substantiate something it doesn't. Something of which you've done, repeatedly.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

You remind me of some kind of creature that hides in the bushes cormac, always watching, waiting for the opportunity to pounce out at someone and ambush them.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/U_paper.pdf

the identification of U5b1b now unequivocally

links the maternal gene pool of the ancestral

Berbers to the same refuge area and indicates that

European hunter-gatherers also moved toward the

south and, by crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, contributed

their U5b1b, H1, H3, and V mtDNAs to modern

North Africans.

It's plain and simple. Ancient Europeans crossed into Libya, ones who are connected to Sami, it doesn't take a genius to see that they would have taken their knowledge of the North Pole star and associated time keeping and shaman magic with them. They might not have been 'Sami' as such at that time but the religion has been kept with them because they are so well, shamistic and ancient.

Many times also, haplogroups are just referred to as genes, I speak fairly basic at times. Sorry for my lack of technical terms.

Berber Genes in Europeans

http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/06/08/berber-genes-in-europeans/