[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

This is what I asked:

"I'd like to add: where is the geological proof lands rose up or submerged around that time? All these volcanoes erupting? Catastrophic floods? Fires burning for years? And all that in Europe, or around the North Sea or the Atlantic? In 2194 BC?"

And this is your answer:

You want proof? Try this:

China

The extract of a paper written by Chun Chang Huang and others from the Department of Geography, Shaanxi Normal University, Xi’an, Shaanxi in the People’s Republic of China in 2010, Extraordinary floods related to the climatic event at 4200 a BP on the Qishuihe River, middle reaches of the Yellow River, China,:

A paleo-hydrological study was carried out in the Qishuihe River valley in the middle reaches of the Yellow River.

The results show that successive floods occurred between 4300 and 4000 a BP in association with the abrupt climatic event of 4200 a BP. These overbank floods had the riverbank settlement inundated repeatedly.

The climatic event of 4200 a BP and the climatic decline at 3100 a BP were believed to be characterized by droughts previously. This work provides solid evidence that both severe droughts and extreme floods were parts of the climatic variability during abrupt climatic event and climatic decline in the semi-arid to sub-humid zones over the world.

We also have ample archaeological evidence of ancient Chinese cultures that were destroyed in c. 2200 BC.

The Caribbean

Dr. Sander R. Scheffers of the School for Environmental Management and Science at Southern Cross University, NSW, Australia, and others, in an article, Tsunamis, hurricanes, the demise of coral reefs and shifts in pre-historic human populations in the Caribbean (Quaternary International, Volume 195, 15 February 2009, Pages 69-87):

Three extreme impacts with different magnitudes can be clearly distinguished. The youngest event occurred at approximately 500 BP, a second event at 3,100 BP, and the oldest at 4,200 BP (Scheffers, 2002; Scheffers et al. 2006).

Spain

Francisco Ruiz from the Department of Geodynamics and Palaeontology, University of Huelva, Avda, Spain, and others, noted in the research article, Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain) (Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, Volume 229, Issue 3, 20 December 2005, Pages 212-229):

This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.

Sri Lanka

Ranasinghage, P. N et al in Signatures of Paleo-coastal Hazards in Back-barrier Environments of Eastern and Southeastern Sri Lanka (The Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System: American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2010, abstract #NH21A-1397):

The most recent pre-2004 tsunami event likely occurred around 1000 yrs BP with the older events around 4200 yrs BP and 4900 yrs BP.

The ~ 4200 and ~ 4900 yrs BP events were recorded in multiple cores from Kirind and Vakarai as well as in cores from Hambantota by Jackson (2008).

Syria, Palestine, Iraq & Egypt

Prof Harvey Weiss, professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut (The Sciences, May/June 1996 P. 33,34)

Whether at Tell Leilan or Tell Taya, Chagar Bazar or Tell al-Hawa, the results told the same story: between 2200 and 1900 BC people fled the Habur and Assyrian plains en masse

In Egypt, the Old Kingdom, during which the great pyramids were built, gave way to the turmoil of the First Intermediate Period; in Palestine, Early Bronze Age towns were abandoned; in Mesopotamia Akkad collapsed and nomadic people made strange movements across and down the Euphrates and Tigris valleys.

Only decades after the city’s massive walls were raised, its religious quarter renovated and its grain production reorganized, Tell Leilan was suddenly abandoned. In our excavations, the collapsed remains of Akkadian buildings are covered with erosion deposits that show no trace of human activity

In collaboration with soil scientist and archaeologist Marie-Agnés Courty of the National Centre for Scientific Research in Paris, it was noted that the remains of the city (Tell Leilan) was covered with a thin layer of volcanic ash followed by some 200mm of fine sand. She found very little evidence of earthworm activity, which pointed to a prolonged period of aridity.

The Netherlands

Otto S. Knottnerus from Zuidbroek in the Netherlands wrote an article, Sea Level Rise as a Threat to Cultural Heritage, in the Wadden Sea Newsletter 2000 (No. 2). Of note was the following statement in the article:

Near Delfzijl (Netherlands), Neolithic settlers built a megalithic-chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200 BC, the site disappeared under several feet of clay and peat

North Africa

(Mentioned earlier)

The Potsdam-Institut fuer Klimafolgenforschung (Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research) in Germany, headed by Prof. Dr. Martin Claussen, analyzed climate feedbacks from the last several thousand years as reported in ScienceDaily

Before that time, the Sahara was covered by annual grasses and low shrubs, as evidenced by fossilized pollen.

The transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.

The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.

In pre-historic times, Lake Yoa in North Eastern Chad was part of the greater Lake Megachad and then, about 4000 years ago, its waters suddenly turned salty (Scientific American, May 9, 2008: From Bountiful to Barren: Rainfall Decrease Left the Sahara Out to Dry - How a once-wet landscape became one of the world's great deserts. By Adam Hadhazy ).

This happened around the same time when the salt content of the ground increased at Tell Leilan in Syria, more than 2500 kilometres away. Scientists speculate that the cessation of fresh water recharge to the lake from rain or rivers and subsequent evaporation would have dramatically increased the salt content over the ensuing millennia. Archaeologists, however, noted that the salinity suddenly increased 4000 years ago. This was not a gradual process. Many of the lakes in North Africa today are salt-water lakes.

Do you still believe that the authors of the OLB dreamed up the catastrophe of 2193/12194 BC?

The only countries relevant to the OLB in your list are Spain and the Netherlands.

What you posted about what happened in Delfzijl I already asnwered long ago: the deposit of clay and peat happened gradually, it certainly did not happen because of some sort of tsunami or whatever.

And although I cannot find that post where I showed you the date for the climatic change of 2200 BC had been corrected to 2350 BC, I will do my best to find it again. I think it had something to do with a professor called "Weiss".

[Abramelin]

Let me answer my own question as to why the Oera Linda Book does not refer to Persia or the Persians. Instead the book refers to the “Ira”

Original Fries (Tresoar)

“Biwesta Pangab ther sind tha Ira ieftha wranga,…”

and

“Therthrvch havon wi tha Ira and tha othera kenna lerth. Tha Ira ne sind nene ira mar goda minska ther nena bildon to leta nach onbidda…”

English

“To the west of the Pangab are the Ira, or Wranga, …”

“In that way we came to know the Ira and other people. The Ira are not savages, but good people, who neither pray to nor tolerate images…”

Here is what Wikipedia has to say:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire

“The Sassanid Empire (also spelled Sasanid Empire, Sassanian Empire, or Sasanian Empire), known to its inhabitants as Ērānshahr and Ērān in Middle Persian and resulting in the New Persian terms Iranshahr and Iran, was the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire, ruled by the Sasanian Dynasty from 224 to 651.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

“The name "Iran" has been in use natively since the Sassanian era and came into use internationally in 1935, before which the country was known to the Western world as Persia”

“The term Ērān is found to refer to Iran in a 3rd century Sassanid inscription, and the Parthian inscription that accompanies it uses the Parthian term "aryān" in reference to Iranians.”

However historically Iran has been referred to as Persia or similar (La Perse, Persien, Perzië, etc.) by the Western world, mainly due to the writings of Greek historians who called Iran Persēs (Πέρσης), meaning land of the Persians.”

So you see, before 1935, Iran (“the land of the Ira”) was known throughout the Western world as “Persia”. Yet, the OLB does not talk about the Persians, but rather about the Ira; the only West European source which called them by their ancient name. This also tells us that the name Ira or Iran goes back to before 300 BC and most likely to before 1500 BC when the Gertmanne arrived in the Punjab. This is much further back than the Sassanid Empire and even before the Greeks’ “Persia”.

To me this is further evidence that the OLB is authentic, but I suppose Abe will again say this was known in 19th century Holland.

The OLB never talks about "Persia" or "Iran": it only mentions the people living there by their own native name.

Which is kind of a logical thing to do: historians will have known the natives called themselves Ira or Arya (from which came the word Aryan).

The name "Iran" has been in use natively since the Sassanian era and came into use internationally in 1935, before which the country was known to the Western world as Persia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran

The Sassanid Empire (also spelled Sasanid Empire, Sassanian Empire, or Sasanian Empire), known to its inhabitants as Ērānshahr and Ērān in Middle Persian and resulting in the New Persian terms Iranshahr and Iran, was the last pre-Islamic Persian Empire, ruled by the Sasanian Dynasty from 224 to 651.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassanid_Empire

All you found out was that after 1935 Persia OFFICIALLY became known as Iran.

So I don't see why some of you are jumping up and down of joy.

[Knul]

This is also something I have a problem with accepting, specially in the sub-title of Alewyn's book: "The course of Eurasia after the night of Wednesday 21 October 2193 BC".

This level of specificity causes some resistance in me.

I'd say ca. 2200 BC or even ca. 2000 BC.

To come to an agreement (for now) that OLB might possibly be authentic (i.e. not a hoax) would already be a major step forward, as the path for scholars to start taking it seriously would finally be opened.

It has been widely accepted, that the OLB is a hoax. That is why scholars don't want to deal with the OLB. You refuse to read sources like Letterkundige Naoogst to convince yourself.

[Knul]

I would like to nominate the following post as one of the very best of this whole thread.

Thank you, Alewyn!

You may check the list of atlases owned by J.H. Halbertsma, which I communicated earlier.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Knul

[Abramelin]

This is the post I was looking for:

I found an interesting article, and a most interesting line.. "circa 2200 BC (now 2350 BC)

(2) THIRD MILLENNIUM BC CLIMATE CHANGE & OLD WORLD COLLAPSE

From: JOURNAL OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL SCIENCE 25,2 (1998), pp. 185-86

Book Review

By Mike Baillie m.baillie@qub.ac.uk

Third Millennium BC Climate Change and Old World Collapse.

Dalfes, H.N., Kukla, G. and Weiss, H. (Eds) 1996

Springer-Verlag (Published in cooperation with NATO

Scientific Affairs Division), Berlin, Heidelberg, New York, Barcelona,

Budapest, Hong Kong, London, Milan, Paris, Santa Clara, Singapore,

Tokyo

ISBN 3-540-61892-9

xiv, 728 pages, 156 figures, 35 tables

price DM 398,-; öS 2905.40; sFr 347,-; £ 172.-

This volume represents a brave attempt to bring together the evidence

for an environmental event in the later third millennium BC.

Thirty-three papers attempt to assemble the evidence from various

natural records and from archaeology. Their success is inevitably

constrained by the one key factor critical in any such endeavour -

chronological resolution. Thus, as a preliminary to the review I feel

it is necessary to set the scene from a chronological standpoint.

The problem posed by Dalfes, Kukla and Weiss is an inherently

interesting one. At the time the papers were assembled Weiss and

Courty were of the opinion that somewhere around 2200 BC there had

been a truly catastrophic environmental event. There was also a lot of

evidence pointing to the centuries between, say, 2300 BC and 1900 BC

representing some sort of environmental downturn, with widely altered

precipitation patterns. So a major question could be couched as

follows.. Were the widespread effects in Asia, Africa and Eastern

Europe actually the result of a general decline over some centuries,

or were they the result of an initial catastrophic trigger event with

longer-term implications? This is a general problem in studies of the

past where dating resolution is poor and where it is impossible to

relate different strands of evidence in real time. It is well typified

by the "suck in and smear" effects suggested in Baillie (1991). These

contrary effects represent a serious impediment to understanding past

phenomena. Abrupt or "point" events tend to be smeared by radiocarbon

dating. Thus radiocarbon effectively conceals abrupt events. The

converse case is where precisely-dated events, e.g. abrupt

environmental downturns deduced from tree-rings, tend to "suck in"

proximate but poorly dated evidence. In such cases it is easy to

envisage the creation of false horizons.

The present volume could be viewed as an exposition on exactly these

concepts. However, it is also important to know that new evidence,

deduced since the volume was produced, has actually made these points

even more emphatically. It is known that an abrupt downturn in Irish

oaks at 2354-2345 BC (Baillie 1995) falls close to the Icelandic Hekla

4 tephra horizon dated to 2310+/-20 CalBC by the wiggle-matching of

high precision radiocarbon dates (Hall et al. 1994). Courty (1997) has

now revised the dating of the original c.2200 BC abrupt environmental

event seen at Tell Leilan, in Syria, to c.2350 BC! Thus this volume of

papers has now to be seen against the existence of what may well be a

very dramatic and widespread environmental downturn - a classic point

event - the nature of which is hinted at by the report of both tephra

and glass spherules at and around the destruction layer at Tell

Leilan.

Do the contributing authors succeed in convincing the reader of the

existence, and chronology, of the proposed environmental change(s)?

The contributions (and I will mention only a few) start with Hassan

covering the breakdown known as the First Intermediate Period in

Egypt, given as 2180-2134 BC, though these cannot be true calendrical

dates. Hassan discusses the issue of the Nile floods in the context of

lake levels in Africa and suffers immediately the problem of

attempting to handle traditional historical dates in Egypt and

radiocarbon chronologies in Africa. Elsewhere Butzer quantifies the

difficulties by pointing out that at Lake Turkana, even with 15

radiocarbon determinations the dating of an abrupt rise in level

around 2150-2050 BC has "a relatively course resolution of +/-100

years". Butzer questions the very idea of a global event and sees no

good evidence for an abrupt change to "greater aridity affecting the

Near East" between 2400-1900 BC.

These few lines nicely exemplify the difficulties. Are we looking at,

or for, an event starting at 2400 or 2350 or 2200 or 2180 BC? Butzer

with his "2400-1900 BCE" has broadened the debate to a full half

millennium - a time period so long that we could reasonably expect

some environmental changes to be recorded in most areas. Courty and

Weiss remind us that there are possibly related socio-economic

disturbances from Egypt, Palestine, the Indus and the Aegean, but of

course there is no good evidence to link these possibly-related

collapses chronologically. Virtually the same applies in the Aegean

handled by Manning. While traditionally there is an Aegean wave of

collapse around 2200 BC, the dating is poor. The Early Helladic II

civilization collapses just when it seems to be at its peak, but what

date is the collapse? Is it c.2350 BC, or c.2200 BC? Manning points

to a related episode of severe soil erosion, unfortunately dated by a

single radiocarbon determination, which calibrates to 2900-2350 CalBC,

but ends up concluding that whatever the date of the EHII collapse the

date of the start of the succeeding EHIII is "after c.2300-2200 BC

(again with no precision)".

Really this is the joy of the whole book. Whether looking at evidence

from the Indus collapse, from drought in Bohemia, from pollen

sequences in Turkey or the Near East or Italy or from varves in

Germany, just about everyone thinks they can see evidence for

environmental change somewhere in the late third millennium BCE.

No-one can specify whether its initiation is really abrupt, nor when

that initiation was. Courty and Weiss have set a series of hares

running with their apparently abrupt and catastrophic event at c2200

BC (now c2350 BC). Can anyone else catch up? Students can be set

endless projects to mine this book in search of the answer.

I cannot resist drawing attention to Harvey Weiss's concluding

remarks. Given their evidence for what appears to be a "blast from the

sky" at Tell Leilan, Weiss is put in the uncomfortable position of

being probably the first archaeologist to have to suggest an impact

from cometary debris in recent millennia. I have absolutely no

problems with that concept but Weiss does; he is torn between claiming

a "hit" and being cautious. He stakes his claim to immortality by

saying

The abrupt climate change at 2200 BC (now 2350 BC),

regardless of an improbable impact explanation,

situates hemispheric social collapse in a global,

but ultimately cosmic, context.

If Baillie (1998) ever sees print, Weiss is going to find strong

circumstantial support that he is probably correct on all counts.

With abrupt change in ancient records, previously obscured by poor

chronological control, more common than previously imagined.

Kukla presents a nice piece on the philosophical difficulty of

disproving events "it is more difficult to prove that something didn't

happen than that it did". This is much in keeping with the suck-in

effect, where loosely dated evidence may be drawn in to support an

event. It then becomes difficult to disprove the event as this would

require better dating of a range of poorly-dated phenomena. This

raises the question whether the act of postulating a significant event

circa 2200 BC (now 2350 BC) has actually created one? I don't

personally think it does. Sufficiently many of the 33 contributions

see evidence for environmental alteration in the later third

millennium BC that something has to have been going on. Their problem

is that in any period of three to four, to five, centuries there is

plenty of time for all sorts of environmental downturns in all sorts

of areas. The real question remains, is there any evidence for a

synchronous global, or even hemispheric, environmental event. Nothing

in the book currently proves that there was. However, the drawing

together of the several contributions provides the student with a mine

of relevant information. The book is a must for the library shelves of

any departments interested in environmental change or in the

archaeology of the third millennium BC or in systems collapse.

The book has typographical errors sprinkled throughout and several

papers clearly required more rigorous proof reading by the editors.

More damning in a volume of this kind is the lack of a consistent

convention on dates. This is particularly significant when the

intention is to see what happened in a tight period of a few centuries

some four millennia ago. Ideally all historical and

dendrochronological dates should have been AD and BC, or BCE. All

historical/archaeological dates older than 600 BC should have been

quoted with estimated errors; this would also apply to dates from

ice-cores and varve sequences. Raw radiocarbon ages should have been

presented as BP with quoted errors, while calibrated radiocarbon ages

should have been signalled as CalAD or CalBC and should have been

quoted with their calibrated 2-sigma ranges. Failure to enforce a

dating code means that the reader has to work hard to compare evidence

both within and between papers. None of these criticisms damage the

work as a whole.

http://abob.libs.uga.edu/bobk/ccc/cc022398.html

[Abramelin]

You might want to check how the Los Millares (S/E Spain) settlement got destroyed in 2200 BC: by extensive fires...

But the explanation is that is was destroyed by fire during wars.

Btw, I have read somewhere about a submarine volcano, west of Portugal, Mt.Tores something, causing this flood/tsunami.

+++

EDIT:

During the period of 2600 B.C. to 2400 B.C. there were signs of stress beginning to appear in the Millaren culture. Their fortifications were reinforced and enlarged to their maximum extent indicating violent encounters or war with the neighboring peoples from the west and north of them. It was in this period that the first Maritime Bell Beaker pottery appeared among the Millarens. The pottery spread quickly throughout the region on the existing maritime trade networks. By 2400 B.C. the social stress facing the Millarens began to worsen into a crisis and the large settlements began to depopulate. The graves of the elites were increasingly accompanied with weapons indicating the violent nature of the time. By 2200 B.C. the town of Los Millares was abandoned after a sequence of catastrophes (probably large-scale warfare). There is evidence of widespread fires and damage to the fortifications. But amid the destruction, the first settlements of the El Argar arose to take their place. The period began with the use of bronze in the Aegean in 2600 B.C. and ended in 2200 B.C. with it being used by the Beaker people in Britain.

http://www.minoanatlantis.com/Minoan_Spain.php

+++

EDIT:

And the submarine volcano is the "Torre Seamount".

[Knul]

You want proof? Try this:

China

The extract of a paper written by Chun Chang Huang and others from the Department of Geography, Shaanxi Normal University, Xi’an, Shaanxi in the People’s Republic of China in 2010, Extraordinary floods related to the climatic event at 4200 a BP on the Qishuihe River, middle reaches of the Yellow River, China,:

A paleo-hydrological study was carried out in the Qishuihe River valley in the middle reaches of the Yellow River.

The results show that successive floods occurred between 4300 and 4000 a BP in association with the abrupt climatic event of 4200 a BP. These overbank floods had the riverbank settlement inundated repeatedly.

The climatic event of 4200 a BP and the climatic decline at 3100 a BP were believed to be characterized by droughts previously. This work provides solid evidence that both severe droughts and extreme floods were parts of the climatic variability during abrupt climatic event and climatic decline in the semi-arid to sub-humid zones over the world.

We also have ample archaeological evidence of ancient Chinese cultures that were destroyed in c. 2200 BC.

The Caribbean

Dr. Sander R. Scheffers of the School for Environmental Management and Science at Southern Cross University, NSW, Australia, and others, in an article, Tsunamis, hurricanes, the demise of coral reefs and shifts in pre-historic human populations in the Caribbean (Quaternary International, Volume 195, 15 February 2009, Pages 69-87):

Three extreme impacts with different magnitudes can be clearly distinguished. The youngest event occurred at approximately 500 BP, a second event at 3,100 BP, and the oldest at 4,200 BP (Scheffers, 2002; Scheffers et al. 2006).

Spain

Francisco Ruiz from the Department of Geodynamics and Palaeontology, University of Huelva, Avda, Spain, and others, noted in the research article, Evidence of high-energy events in the geological record: Mid-holocene evolution of the southwestern Doñana National Park (SW Spain) (Palaeogeography, Palaeoclimatology, Palaeoecology, Volume 229, Issue 3, 20 December 2005, Pages 212-229):

This was followed by a renewed phase of instability ( 4200–4100 cal. years BP) indicated by the presence of fine storm-lain deposits and thicker, probably tsunami-induced shelly deposits.

Sri Lanka

Ranasinghage, P. N et al in Signatures of Paleo-coastal Hazards in Back-barrier Environments of Eastern and Southeastern Sri Lanka (The Smithsonian/NASA Astrophysics Data System: American Geophysical Union, Fall Meeting 2010, abstract #NH21A-1397):

The most recent pre-2004 tsunami event likely occurred around 1000 yrs BP with the older events around 4200 yrs BP and 4900 yrs BP.

The ~ 4200 and ~ 4900 yrs BP events were recorded in multiple cores from Kirind and Vakarai as well as in cores from Hambantota by Jackson (2008).

Syria, Palestine, Iraq & Egypt

Prof Harvey Weiss, professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut (The Sciences, May/June 1996 P. 33,34)

Whether at Tell Leilan or Tell Taya, Chagar Bazar or Tell al-Hawa, the results told the same story: between 2200 and 1900 BC people fled the Habur and Assyrian plains en masse

In Egypt, the Old Kingdom, during which the great pyramids were built, gave way to the turmoil of the First Intermediate Period; in Palestine, Early Bronze Age towns were abandoned; in Mesopotamia Akkad collapsed and nomadic people made strange movements across and down the Euphrates and Tigris valleys.

Only decades after the city’s massive walls were raised, its religious quarter renovated and its grain production reorganized, Tell Leilan was suddenly abandoned. In our excavations, the collapsed remains of Akkadian buildings are covered with erosion deposits that show no trace of human activity

In collaboration with soil scientist and archaeologist Marie-Agnés Courty of the National Centre for Scientific Research in Paris, it was noted that the remains of the city (Tell Leilan) was covered with a thin layer of volcanic ash followed by some 200mm of fine sand. She found very little evidence of earthworm activity, which pointed to a prolonged period of aridity.

The Netherlands

Otto S. Knottnerus from Zuidbroek in the Netherlands wrote an article, Sea Level Rise as a Threat to Cultural Heritage, in the Wadden Sea Newsletter 2000 (No. 2). Of note was the following statement in the article:

Near Delfzijl (Netherlands), Neolithic settlers built a megalithic-chambered tomb about 3350 BC. After 2200 BC, the site disappeared under several feet of clay and peat

North Africa

(Mentioned earlier)

The Potsdam-Institut fuer Klimafolgenforschung (Potsdam Institute for Climate Impact Research) in Germany, headed by Prof. Dr. Martin Claussen, analyzed climate feedbacks from the last several thousand years as reported in ScienceDaily

Before that time, the Sahara was covered by annual grasses and low shrubs, as evidenced by fossilized pollen.

The transition to today's arid climate was not gradual, but occurred in two specific episodes. The first, which was less severe, occurred between 6,700 and 5,500 years ago. The second, which was brutal, lasted from 4,000 to 3,600 years ago. Summer temperatures increased sharply, and precipitation decreased, according to carbon-14 dating. This event devastated ancient civilizations and their socio-economic systems.

The change from the mid-Holocene climate to that of today was initiated by changes in the Earth's orbit and the tilt of Earth's axis.

In pre-historic times, Lake Yoa in North Eastern Chad was part of the greater Lake Megachad and then, about 4000 years ago, its waters suddenly turned salty (Scientific American, May 9, 2008: From Bountiful to Barren: Rainfall Decrease Left the Sahara Out to Dry - How a once-wet landscape became one of the world's great deserts. By Adam Hadhazy ).

This happened around the same time when the salt content of the ground increased at Tell Leilan in Syria, more than 2500 kilometres away. Scientists speculate that the cessation of fresh water recharge to the lake from rain or rivers and subsequent evaporation would have dramatically increased the salt content over the ensuing millennia. Archaeologists, however, noted that the salinity suddenly increased 4000 years ago. This was not a gradual process. Many of the lakes in North Africa today are salt-water lakes.

Do you still believe that the authors of the OLB dreamed up the catastrophe of 2193/12194 BC?

The higher the mountain you sit on, the more land you see. Did you investigate the mythical vulcanism in Frisia (Red Cliff near Stavoren) ?

[Abramelin]

This was my reply to a post by Puzz (about Delfzijl):

The date -2200 BC- sure is interesting, but you would have hit jackpot if the sites were - apart from clay and peat - had been covered with a layer of sand.

The 2194 BC thing of the OLB was a disaster that included catastrophic floods. Such floods carry a lot of sand with them, which cover coastal areas.

The process desscribed in the pdf is about slowly rising sealevels and a subsequent deposit of clay and later on, peat.

Btw: in the Doggerland thread I have posted about how initially they found out about a huge tsunami happening around 6150 BC (Storegga Slide): in Scotland a geologist found meters thick sand deposits containing (deep)sea-shells high up inland.

They also found proof of the same tsunami in Rotterdam, the Netherlands.

So, if they can find proof of a tsunami happening around 6150 BC, why not of the one around 2200 BC (in the same area)?

.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

It has been widely accepted, that the OLB is a hoax. That is why scholars don't want to deal with the OLB. You refuse to read sources like Letterkundige Naoogst to convince yourself.

Did you know that it was once "widely accepted" that our economy would always keep growing and what happened to wise people who dared to challenge this belief?

You surely remember the once "widely accepted" ideas that the earth is flat and that the sun rotates around it.

I've seen enough of your 'evidence' to not feel like wasting my time on reading a book by the incredibly boring Halbertsma (who had no sense of humor or imagination).

Why don't you quote or summarize this evidence so the whole forum can read it?

If it's any good, I or Abe will translate it for you.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Thanks Puzzler. No, I was not aware of this website.

I just glanced over it and it would appear that scientists have not dated it conclusively (yet). Some of the diagrams would seem to indicate that the most recent pre-impact layers, however, dates to about 4000 years BP (2000 BC). This could make it very relevant to our discussion.

Thanks.

Just adding some quotes from the website Puzz found ( http://www.chiemgau-impact.com/ ) :

Doppler et al. (2011: 274) contend that we would date the Chiemgau impact to “some 2500 years ago” in “the Iron Age”. In actual fact we have dated the event to a period of 4200-2800 years ago (2200-800 BC), this means the Bronze Age (Rappenglück et al. 2010: 436).

-

Arguing from a critical reading of the text, and scientific evidence on the ground, the authors show that the myth of Phaethon – the delinquent celestial charioteer – remembers the impact of a massive meteorite that hit the Chiemgau region in Bavaria between 2000 and 428 BC.

-

Physical and archeological dating confine the impact event to have happened most probably between 1300 and 300 B.C. The impactor is suggested to have been a low-density disintegrated, loosely bound asteroid or adisintegrated comet in order to account for the extensive strewn field.

[Abramelin]

It just proofs, that the OLB has been written after 1935.

s. http://www.maps.com/map.aspx?pid=15966 (National Geographic World Map 1935). [iran (formerly Persia)]

s. http://maps.nationalgeographic.com/maps/print-collection/world-map-1922.html (National Geographic World Map 1922). [Persia]

I assume you were kidding, Menno.... right?

I repeat: the OLB talks about a people - Yra - not about Iran or Persia.

It was known - certainly by historians - that the natives called themselves Ira or Arya, and anyone reading a history book about Persia would have known, even in the 19th century.

[Otharus]

Did Jensma comment on your book yet?

Alewyn, didn't you send Jensma a copy of your book?

Did he ever comment on it?

[Otharus]

It was known - certainly by historians - that the natives called themselves Ira or Arya, and anyone reading a history book about Persia would have known, even in the 19th century.

I doubt this is true.

Can you give one example?

[Abramelin]

I doubt this is true.

Can you give one example?

Have a guess: where did the word "Aryan" come from? The word was known in the 19th century and most probably it did not come falling from the skies.

You really think no one in the Netherlands ever read about the history of Persia or the Sassanid Empire?

If I wanted to write an 'ancient' manuscript I would use the names the natives in the lands I describe used for themselves.

[Otharus]

Have a guess: where did the word "Aryan" come from? The word was known in the 19th century and most probably it did not come falling from the skies.

Was it known in any book available here?

I really doubt it and wouldn't guess that easily.

[Abramelin]

Was it known in any book available here?

I really doubt it and wouldn't guess that easily.

21: Pictet, Adolphe "Iren und Arier" Beiträge zur vergleichenden Sprachforschung auf dem Gebiete der arischen, celtischen und slawischen Sprachen 1858.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan#19th_century

You might also be interested in the 19th-century theories about there being 'three races': white, black, yellow (Frya, Lyda, Finda).

.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

21: Pictet, Adolphe "Iren und Arier" Beiträge zur vergleichenden Sprachforschung auf dem Gebiete der arischen, celtischen und slawischen Sprachen 1858.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan#19th_century

OK, nice find.

You might also be interested in the 19th-century theories about there being 'three races': white, black, yellow (Frya, Lyda, Finda).

It does not surprise me at all that much of what we read in an ancient manuscript was and is still living in our collective consciousness.

[Abramelin]

OK, nice find.

It does not surprise me at all that much of what we read in an ancient manuscript was and is still living in our collective consciousness.

Btw, you can read more about Pictet and others here:

http://www.archive.org/stream/beitrgezurvergl03schlgoog#page/n143/mode/1up

==

In our collective consciousness?? Please read again that Wiki page I linked to in my former post.

It's as racist as racist can be.

[Alewyn]

Alewyn, didn't you send Jensma a copy of your book?

Did he ever comment on it?

Yes, more than a year ago.

At first I thought it would not be right to share his private e-mail dated 18 August 2010 to me. On reflection, however, I don’t think he would object. Here it is:

Dear Mister Raubenheimer,

Indeed, some three or four weeks ago, I received a copy of your book Survivors of the Great Tsunami. I apologize for not having written you before, but I want you to know that I really appreciated you donating me your book. Thank you very much for that.

In the meantime I have been reading your book also. I tried to do this as unprejudiced as possible, but, as you will know, I have been studying the Oera Linda Book for a couple of years myself and have written a study on it (2004) and also published a new edition (2006). In my view the OLB is a intelligently written, erudite, very subtle and multi-layered hoax originating from the 19th century. The plot of the book is that it wants to puzzle the reader, but only temporarily, in order to convince him that you should not take books like these all too literally. The book really is a literary master-work in its kind, as well as a 19th century comment on debates on religious fundamentalism.

The question now was whether your book would challenge me and convince me to admit my wrong. I am sorry to say that it did challenge me indeed, but it did not succeed in changing my views. I think your book stands in a long tradition of readers (and writers) who are taking the text of the book literally, or better: which take it for a factual description of some prehistoric reality (Herman Wirth's, Die Ura Linda Chronik from the 1930s has proven to be influential). In my view it obviously is not. You can set up a whole string of arguments to show that. For instance the letters used in the book are nothing but Roman capitals, the language used is a Frisian form of 19th century Dutch, full of 19th century words and references to nineteenth century persons and events; if you give the text a closer look you will see that the chronology has been inferred in the text at a later stage of the making process, the text originally being a non-historical allegory in which Frya and the Magi were the main characters. And so on, and so on.

You could have read all this and more in my book (De Gemaskerde god) as well as from the large body of literature on the subject which, ever since the book came about in the 1860s, has shown that the text simply cannot be true in the sense that it would be a factual description of a prehistoric society.

It your attempt to to prove that the OLB is a 'Rosetta Stone of European History', you are using methods which are mostly scientifical (instead of scholarly) by nature and so you take your 'prove' of the authenticity of the book from geology, historical geography, astrophysics and so on. I really regret that you did not give the text itself a closer look: why is this text written as it is written (even if it were to be an age-old text)?

I realize that it must have been an enormous effort for you to research this subject, to write the book and to have it published, and I would have liked to admit that my findings on the book are wrong. But regrettably for you I can't.

I wish all the best and thanks once again,

Goffe Jensma

[Abramelin]

Alewyn, to read more about Jensma's theory and analysis, I copied a jumbled textual mess (a copy of a PDF with hyperlinks that got included in the copy) I found online, cleaned it up a bit, and posted it in a blog:

http://oeralinda.blogspot.com/

Everything you read in italics were footnotes and references.

Btw, at the bottom of that page you will see a link to a summary in English of Jensma's "De Gemaskerde god".

Edited November 16, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

I'm not ignoring it. Some of it we've already been over before and the claims ARE NOT as you've presented them in the past. But in ALL cases, not a one of them makes the claim that something happened in 2193/2194, specifically. This has been your downfall for the last 507 pages. So again, where's your evidence supporting the specific date of 2193/2194 BC?

cormac

Downfall?!

You can’t be serious. Six or Seven years over 4200 years? Don't you think you are now grasping at straws?

The Oera Linda Book uses the Date of 2193/2194 as the start of their calendar. If you examine the OLB like I did and you find all the verifiable facts to be correct, then you must assume that the date is also pretty accurate. Add to this the demise of the Akkadian Empire (2193 BC), the Harrapan Urban Civilization (c. 2200 BC), The Old Kingdom in Egypt (c. 2200BC), Ancient cultures in China (c. 2200 BC), all the tsunami and flood evidence I gave earlier today (c. 2200 BC), etc. etc. Surely you do not expect all these archaeological dates to be accurate to the exact year.

Btw. The OLB dating just happens to tie in with Alexander the Great's Indian campaign which tells me the date is correct.

I am certain you have it in you to up your analytical skills a notch or two.

[The Puzzler]

Just adding some quotes from the website Puzz found ( http://www.chiemgau-impact.com/ ) :

Doppler et al. (2011: 274) contend that we would date the Chiemgau impact to “some 2500 years ago” in “the Iron Age”. In actual fact we have dated the event to a period of 4200-2800 years ago (2200-800 BC), this means the Bronze Age (Rappenglück et al. 2010: 436).

-

Arguing from a critical reading of the text, and scientific evidence on the ground, the authors show that the myth of Phaethon – the delinquent celestial charioteer – remembers the impact of a massive meteorite that hit the Chiemgau region in Bavaria between 2000 and 428 BC.

-

Physical and archeological dating confine the impact event to have happened most probably between 1300 and 300 B.C. The impactor is suggested to have been a low-density disintegrated, loosely bound asteroid or adisintegrated comet in order to account for the extensive strewn field.

Fact being, it has not been dated conclusively, but is thought possible to be from 2200BC onwards sometime.

The Kaali crater is much the same, regardless of what you think they should know, they don't know exactly on it either.

Scientists are fairly sure they know how this story began: a meteor initially weighing some 400 - 10,000 tons sped in from the northeast moving 15 - 45 kilometers per second and entered the Earth's atmosphere at a 45-degree angle. After turning into a fireball and losing most of its mass, the meteor broke apart about 5 - 10 kilometers from the surface, then hit Saaremaa with a force that has been compared to that of a small atomic blast.

What they still can't tell us is when this all happened. The evidence, at least for now, points in two different directions.

Formed in the 7th century BC or about 4000 years ago (estimates vary) You gotta love that.

"We usually give two dates - '4,000 years' and 'older'," said Reet Tiirmaa, a geologist with Tallinn Technological University who specializes in meteors.

"The age of the sediments of the lake in the main crater tell us that the [impact] was almost 4,000 years ago. But now we've studied the peat of the [nearby] swamp and in one layer we found very small impact spheres from the explosion. This layer was 7,500 years old, which says that the impact was 7,500 years ago," she said.

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/13029/

There may have even been an earlier impact at 7,500BP as well as 4000BP.

It's not impossible the smaller impacts on Bavaria were also from the incoming Kaali impact, it being a meteor shower type impact.

I don't know exactly why the impact crater is called Kaali, but what I do find interesting is the Indian connection...

The Terrible Kaali, The Benign Mother

http://www.dlshq.org/religions/kaali.htm

and the Phaethon connection.

----------------------

Here's the runic passage in the Kalevala, that talks about the son of the Sun falling, possibly speaking of the Kaali impact.

It was precisely this kind of connection to ancient tales that interested Lennart Meri. Long before he became president of Estonia (1992 - 2000), the ethnographer found what he considered to be echoes of the Kaali meteorite event in the Baltic region's oral folk tradition, in particular, the Finnish national epic, Kalevala.

"Rune 47" contains numerous accounts of the child of the sun falling from the sky that could easily double as poetic accounts of a large meteor impact. "Downward quick the red-ball rushes, / Shoots across the arch of heaven, / Hisses through the startled cloudlets, / Flashes through the troubled welkin, / Through nine starry vaults of ether…," goes one such passage.

http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/13029/

At these words, Dionysos rejoiced in hope of victory; then he questioned Hermes and wished to hear more of the Olympian tale which the Celts of the west know well: how Phaethon tumbled over and over through the air, and why even the Heliades (Daughters of Helios) were changed into trees beside the moaning Eridanos, and from their leafy trees drop sparkling tears into the stream [the source of amber].

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html

Not only does the whole Phaethon myth smack of Nordic themes in amber, heliades but the Celts of the West knew it so well.

Why would that be? As I suggested before imo the (proto) Celts themselves who ended up down in Austria, were actually from Estonia, Finland and Poland and left when the impact of Kaali/Phaethon hit.

They took this story with them, as they developed ino Celts, who also might have been the Kalta followers as well once in Europe, as people who told stories they recalled it best.

Edited November 16, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

"Kaali" is Finnish for "cabbage", lol.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lehtikaali

http://www.memrise.com/item/454820/kaali-cabbage/

.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

You might want to check how the Los Millares (S/E Spain) settlement got destroyed in 2200 BC: by extensive fires...

But the explanation is that is was destroyed by fire during wars.

Btw, I have read somewhere about a submarine volcano, west of Portugal, Mt.Tores something, causing this flood/tsunami.

+++

EDIT:

During the period of 2600 B.C. to 2400 B.C. there were signs of stress beginning to appear in the Millaren culture. Their fortifications were reinforced and enlarged to their maximum extent indicating violent encounters or war with the neighboring peoples from the west and north of them. It was in this period that the first Maritime Bell Beaker pottery appeared among the Millarens. The pottery spread quickly throughout the region on the existing maritime trade networks. By 2400 B.C. the social stress facing the Millarens began to worsen into a crisis and the large settlements began to depopulate. The graves of the elites were increasingly accompanied with weapons indicating the violent nature of the time. By 2200 B.C. the town of Los Millares was abandoned after a sequence of catastrophes (probably large-scale warfare). There is evidence of widespread fires and damage to the fortifications. But amid the destruction, the first settlements of the El Argar arose to take their place. The period began with the use of bronze in the Aegean in 2600 B.C. and ended in 2200 B.C. with it being used by the Beaker people in Britain.

http://www.minoanatlantis.com/Minoan_Spain.php

I know you posted this months ago but, there is that date of 2200 BC again - and fires to boot. Don't you find it even a little bit peculiar that the date keeps on cropping up?

[ISAEYEALLSEEING]

I was recently contacted by Alewyn Raubenheimer, a fellow South African, who has just published a new theory about the Great Flood in a book called Survivors of the Great Tsunami. He based his theories on the so-called Oera Linda Book, which I in fact had never heard of before. If you are interested, you can read more about its contents on his website (here). Although I do not necessarily agree with his theories, you may find it an interesting read. The book can be purchased here.

These watery tales certainly attract larger numbers of readers dont they regardless of the hecklers and trolls :-) This thread 198,485 Views

THE LOCATION OF ATLANTIS 913,327 views

Nik