[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

One of th documents in the case of Winkler is his testament. I have put this text on my website under letters (brieven): Testament van Johan Winkler d.d. maart 1907 (opgenomen in het kistje). There are some other publications known (including an article in German), but not the full contents of the case.

I understand, that this Lindawrden disappeared in the Middelzee.

The "Linta-wrda" disappeared because Verwijs had noticed he had made an error in his etymology.... he had forgotten a letter: the -r- . So the right name should have been "Lintarwrda".

He had been misguided by this omission and had already created a far-reaching etymology before he finally discovered he had made an error.

[Abramelin]

< skip; see the rest of the quoted post by clicking on the little arrow left of my username. I try to save space >

For comparison, here the relevant passage in the OLB:

Above the Rhine among the mountains I have seen Marsaten. The Marsaten are people who live on the lakes. Their houses are, built upon poles, for protection from the wild beasts and wicked people. There are wolves, bears, and horrible lions. Then come the Swiss, the nearest to the frontiers of the Heinde Krekalander (Italians), the followers of Kalta and the savage Twiskar, all greedy for robbery and booty.

The Marsaten gain their livelihood by fishing and hunting. The skins are sewn together by the women, and prepared with birch bark. The small skins are as soft as a woman’s skin. The Burgtmaagd at Fryasburgt told us that they were good, simple people; but if I had not heard her speak of them first, I should have thought that they were not Frya’s people, they looked so impudent. Their wool and herbs are bought by the Rhine people, and taken to foreign countries by the ship captains. Along the other side of the Rhine it was just the same as at Lydasburcht (Leiden). There was a great river or lake, and upon this lake also there were people living upon piles. But they were not Frya’s people; they were black and brown men who had been employed as rowers to bring home the men who had been making foreign voyages, and they had to stay there till the fleet went back.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

.

From Van Lennep's map we can deduce the Marezaten/Marsaten indeed lived north of the river Rhine.. in the Netherlands.. ..but where are these mountains?? The Netherlands is a country as flat as a pancake.

Were there even Marsaten living near Switzerland?

As far as any ancient and modern map I found on the internet, they lived in the center of the Netherlands, or else, in what is now the Dutch province of Zeeland.

Or - like I suggested earlier today - did the ones who wrote the OLB move these Marsaten to near Switzerland after they had learned of those "stilt houses" in Switzerland (1853)?

Something is not right here......

++++++

EDIT:

There's a town in France called "Marsat", west of Switzerland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsat

.

.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

One of the books owned by Cornelis over de Linden was:

http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k101861c/f1.highres

Grave, Charles-Joseph de (1806), République des Champs élysées, ou, Monde ancien: ouvrage dans lequel on démontre principalement que les Champs Élysées et l'Enfer des anciens sont le nom d'une ancienne république d'hommes justes et religieux, située a l'extrémité septentrionale de la Gaule, et surtout dans les îles du Bas-Rhin; que cet Enfer a été le premier sanctuaire de l'initiation aux mỳsteres, et qu'Ulysse y a été initié ...; que les poètes Homère et Hésiode sont originaires de la Belgique, &c., Ghent.

1806 again....

A date predicted in the OLB (4000 years after the submergence of Aldland).

The same date Louis Napoleon, Nap's brother, became king of The Netherlands.

.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

From Van Lennep's map we can deduce the Marezaten/Marsaten indeed lived north of the river Rhine.. in the Netherlands.. ..but where are these mountains?? The Netherlands is a country as flat as a pancake.

Were there even Marsaten living near Switzerland?

As far as any ancient and modern map I found on the internet, they lived in the center of the Netherlands or in what is now the Dutch province of Zeeland.

Or - like I suggested earlier today - did the ones who wrote the OLB move these Marsaten to near Switzerland after they had learned of those "stilt houses" in Switzerland (1853)?

Something is not right here......

++++++

EDIT:

There's a town in France called "Marsat", west of Switzerland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsat

This is my understanding:

"Marsaten" denoted people who lived on the lakes, marshes, or, if you like in or on wetlands. Some of them (not necesarily all of them) actually built their houses on piles above the water. Van Lennop, in his (fictitous) novel, described these people in and around the Netherlands.

Had there been other people further afield in Europe, the Frisians (or Fryans) would have called them by the same name, "Marsaten" i.e. "Marsh Dwellers". The Marsaten in the Netherlands, therefore, were not the only Marsaten in Europe.

The Oera Linda Book describes Marsaten in the upper reaches of the Rheine near, or in the Mountains; this would imply the region towards Switzerland. Evidence of these Marsaten in Switzerland was only discovered around 1853/4. Before this date, there was no record or memory of these Marsaten in Switzerland which, according to Ottema, was evidence that the OLB was written before 1853/4. It would seem that even his critics agreed with him that there was no knowledge of these specific Swiss Marsaten before this date; only, to them it meant that the OLB was written after 1853/4.

Had the writers of the Oera Linda Book used sources such as van Lennop for their story, then surely one would have expected them to have described, and located, these people in the Netherlands. They actually went against van Lennop, however, and placed them in the region of Switzerland - exactly where archaeologists found them in 1853/4.

[Abramelin]

This is my understanding:

"Marsaten" denoted people who lived on the lakes, marshes, or, if you like in or on wetlands. Some of them (not necesarily all of them) actually built their houses on piles above the water. Van Lennop, in his (fictitous) novel, described these people in and around the Netherlands.

Had there been other people further afield in Europe, the Frisians (or Fryans) would have called them by the same name, "Marsaten" i.e. "Marsh Dwellers". The Marsaten in the Netherlands, therefore, were not the only Marsaten in Europe.

The Oera Linda Book describes Marsaten in the upper reaches of the Rheine near, or in the Mountains; this would imply the region towards Switzerland. Evidence of these Marsaten in Switzerland was only discovered around 1853/4. Before this date, there was no record or memory of these Marsaten in Switzerland which, according to Ottema, was evidence that the OLB was written before 1853/4. It would seem that even his critics agreed with him that there was no knowledge of these specific Swiss Marsaten before this date; only, to them it meant that the OLB was written after 1853/4.

Had the writers of the Oera Linda Book used sources such as van Lennop for their story, then surely one would have expected them to have described, and located, these people in the Netherlands. They actually went against van Lennop, however, and placed them in the region of Switzerland - exactly where archaeologists found them in 1853/4.

Yes, there were "Marsaten" living "above the Rhine", but they lived in The Netherlands, "above the Rhine", according to Van Lennep's map (the one I posted).

And Alewyn, please show me a source, anything, that tells us there were Marsaten living near Switzerland.

You can't because they didn't live there, or no one by that name.

And now you repeat again that date of 1853. What part of Van Lennep's book I quoted from (1838) you did not get?

I say the writers moved these Marsaten (whom everybody thought of as living in the Netherlands) to near Switzerland to make their story stick because of the archeological finds they had heard off.

[Otharus]

OK, so you agree that those stilt-houses ("paalwoningen" or "hutten op palen") were known before 1853?

It's interesting that Jakob van Lennep puts the Marezaten (Marsaten) in the middle of- or in the western part of the Netherlands, near/on a lake called "Meir". So the name would mean something like "seated on the Meir".

But the OLB suggests these Marsaten lived close to the Swiss.... as though the discovery of those stilt houses in 1853 forced the creator(s) of the OLB to re-locate them and move them much further inland into the direction of Switzerland.

MÁR-SATA AND HJARA PÀL-HUSA ~ a reconstruction

1745: Jan Over de Linden (age 26) moves from Leeuwarden to Enkhuizen, bringing with him the manuscript.

1764: Jan Over de Linden (age 45) starts bookshop in Enkhuizen (Nieuwe Westerstraat).

1794: Jan Over de Linden dies (age 75) and leaves the manuscript to his son Andries (age 34).

1820: Andries Over de Linden dies (age 60) and leaves the manuscript to his daughter Aafje (age 21) and the father of her daughter, Hendrik Reuvers (age 24), who were both living in Andries' house.

1838: Jacob Van Lennep (age 36) publishes history-based novel, in which he describes Marezaten with stilt houses in Holland.

1845: Hendrik Reuvers dies (age 49). Cornelis Over de Linden (age 34, grandson of Andries) from Den Helder starts attempts to obtain the manuscript

1848: Cornelis Over de Linden (age 37), succeeds and becomes owner of manuscript.

1853: Discovery archaeological remains of stilt houses in Switzerland.

1867: Cornelis Over de Linden starts looking for help of scholars in Leeuwarden with translation of the manuscript.

1872: First publication of transcription and translation of the manuscript, that would become known as the Oera Linda Book (OLB).

Fragment from the manuscript [OLB p.109/14]

BOPPA THÉRE RÉNA TWISK THET BERCHTA. THÉR HÀV IK MÁR.SÁTA SJAN.

THA MÁR.SÁTA THÀT SEND MÀNNISKA THÉR INVPPA MÁRA HÉMA.

HJARA HUSA SEND VP PÀLUM BUWAD.

THÀT IS VRET WILDE KWIK ÀND BOSE MÀNNISKA.

THÉR SEND WOLVA BÁRA ÀND SWÁRTE GRISLIKA LÁWA.

ÀND HJA SEND THA SWETSAR JEFTHA PÀLENGGAR FON DA HÉINDE KRÉKA LANDER THÉRA KÀLTA FOLGAR ÀND THA VRWILDERE TWISKAR.

ALLA GÍRICH NÉI RÁV ÀND BUT.

THA MÁRSÁTA HELPATH HJARA SELVA MITH FISKA ÀND JÁGA.

THA HUDA WRDATH THRVCH THA WIVA TOMAKAD ÀND BIRHET MITH SKORS FON BERKUM.

THA LITHA HUDA SAFT LIK FÁMNA FILT. [...]

HJRA FACHTA ÀND KRUDA WRDON THRVCH THA RÉN.HÉMAR VRWANDELATH ÀND THRVCH THA STJURAR BUTA BROCHT.

Wherefrom did Van Lennep get the idea of Marezaten with stilthouses in Holland?

As far as I know there are no archaeological finds therof in Holland, nor older (accepted) sources.

Where did Van Lennep get this idea from?

Explanation: Some of the information from the OLB was vaguely known to some people.

If the manuscript would be a fabrication, and the phrase about the Már-sata and their stilt houses would have been based on Van Lennep's work, why would they be located (correctly, but different from Van Lennep interpretation!) in Switzerland?

The only possible explanation is that the manuscript would have been made after the 1853 finds, which can only be true if Over de Linden and all his witnesses were liars.

A more likely explanation (without any liars) is that Van Lennep based his story on (inaccurate) information, that came (directly or indirectly) from the manuscript.

[Otharus]

Had the writers of the Oera Linda Book used sources such as van Lennip for their story, then surely one would have expected them to have described, and located, these people in the Netherlands. They actually went against van Lennip, however, and placed them in the region of Switzerland - exactly where archaeologists found them in 1853/4.

Exactly!

Van Lennep's info came (distorted) from OLB, not the other way around!

[Otharus]

A more likely explanation (without any liars) is ...

That is... except for the (relatively small) understandable lie of Cornelis that his Aunt Aafje gave him the manuscript and that he didn't know of its existence (as described by me earlier).

Important is that he obtained it from his family in Enkhuizen, 1848.

That was not a lie.

[Abramelin]

Crappola.

Every known map of the ancient Netherlands located the Marsaten somewhere in the Netherlands.

And not one of them shows them living near 'mountains'.

If a Van Lennep knew of the OLB long before it was published, why would he locate them smack in the middle of the Netherlands, a country known for having no mountains at all?

And you forgot something: Jakob van Lennep DID say they lived 'above the Rhine', just like the OLB says.

But he somehow forgot about those 'mountains'?

Come on.

[Otharus]

Every known map of the ancient Netherlands located the Marsaten somewhere in the Netherlands.

Marsaten means lake- or marsh-dwellers.

But it's the pole-houses that are the key.

Pole-houses were not found in the Netherlands, nor described earlier than by Van Lennep (as far as we know).

[Otharus]

If your supposed hoaxers based the pole-houses in Switzerland on the 1853 finds, why would they call their inhabitants Már-sata?

How did Van Lennep get his idea to add the idea of Pole-houses to the Marsati?

[Otharus]

If a Van Lennep knew of the OLB long before it was published, why would he locate them smack in the middle of the Netherlands, a country known for having no mountains at all?

Van Lennep may not have known the OLB itself, but some of the information, through 'unofficial' channels (hearsay).

As we say in Dutch: he had heard the bell, but didn't know where the clapper was hanging.

("Hij had een klok horen luiden, maar wist niet waar de klepel hing")

[Knul]

I think you missed the point. Pile-dwellers were known since Herodotus all over the Mediterranean, but it was the first time, that they discovered them north of the Alps. That was breaking news. Initially they thought that the wooden piles were remnants of a sunken wood. Ihe identification of pile dwellers = Marsati is only partly true, because people near Leiden, who lived on boats, were also called Marsati (lake dwellers). PS I have done excavations on the Lago di Varese (close to the Lago Maggiore) which boarders were inhabited by pile dwellers., found some rasor blades, bear teeth end fragments of pottery. s. http://www.palafittes.org/en/faq/index.html.

Edited November 27, 2011 by Knul

[Alewyn]

And Alewyn, please show me a source, anything, that tells us there were Marsaten living near Switzerland.

You can't because they didn't live there, or no one by that name.

Man, are you obstinate or what?

I have given you the website of the archaeological find and you quoted from it yourself. Now you ask for a source?

Page 528 (Post #7919) Alewyn Posted 24 November 2011 - 11:49 AM

“The first traces of an ancient lake-dwellers’ village were found in Lake Zurich in 1854,”

http://www.worldfoot...d-heritage-list

I sometimes wonder if you understand your own logic.

[Otharus]

The negative criticism of modern science does not accept any irregularities. If they have decided that the Oera Linda book is not authentic then it must be false, whatever it takes. Now they search everywhere to find the culprit; there is even talk of a price on the head of the offender and a reward for anyone who turns him in. Yet, all this is in vain for the simple reason that such a person does not exist and never has.

In the meantime the public is frightened by the question: “Do you still believe in the Oera Linda Book?” My answer is: “Yes, Gentlemen”.

I have now spent almost six years in studying the book over and over from inside and outside, in the context of the old Greek and Latin literature but nowhere could I find any grounds for doubt. That is why I still believe that the Oera Linda Book is authentic and that is why I present the second edition.

Leeuwarden, Sept. 1876.

Dr. J.G. Ottema

Your translations are great, Alewyn.

Can I copy them to my weblog, with reference to you?

[Otharus]

I have given you the website of the archaeological find and you quoted from it yourself. Now you ask for a source?

Here's the correct link:

Lake dwellings reveal hidden past

[Alewyn]

Your translations are great, Alewyn.

Can I copy them to my weblog, with reference to you?

Thank you very much Otharus.

Of course you may copy them. I would be delighted.

[Alewyn]

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/Specials/UNESCO-World_Heritage/News/Lake_dwellings_make_world_heritage_list_.html?cid=30542748

The prehistoric lake dwellings of the alpine region, including Switzerland, provide a unique glimpse of life in the earliest agricultural settlements from 5,000 to 500 BC.

It is remarkable that the presence of these lake dwellings, as determined by archaeologists, fit exactly in with the time of Apollonias journey up the Rheine in ca 530 BC as described in the OLB. Had she made her journey a hundred years later (say, 400 BC), she may not have seen them!

Secondly, although these pile dwellings were discovered in 1854, they did not have the technology in the 19th century to date them. This only became available in the second half of the 20th century. The OLB is right once again. How does the Hoax Theory account for this?

Edited November 28, 2011 by Alewyn

[The Puzzler]

Btw, I just read an index to Van Lennep's book, "De Roos van Dekama", and it shows he knew of the Frisian "Middelzee" too, despite the fact that by his time it was long gone:

Middelzee = een inham tussen Ooster- en Westergoo. In de loop der eeuwen geheel ingepolderd.

Middelzee = an inlet between Easter- and Westergo. Over the centuries, completely reclaimed.

http://cf.hum.uva.nl/dsp/ljc/jlennep/Dekama/dekaword.html#Olderman

It doesn't surprise me.

The Hebrew name for the Mediterranean is the Middle Sea, apparently a literal adaptation of Mittelmeer. It's still Middle Sea as a German equivalent.

In Modern Hebrew, it has been called HaYyam HaTtikhon (הַיָּם הַתִּיכוֹן), "the middle sea", a literal adaptation of the German equivalent Mittelmeer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea

And no doubt you will all be pleased to hear what name Van Lennep gives - while talking about the Romans - to the Mediterranean (or "Middellandse Zee" in Dutch):

Mittel Meer is simply Middle Sea, why is it so surprising that is actually what it was being called in Germanic languages?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Middle-Sea-History-Mediterranean/dp/1844133087

Edited November 28, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Alewyn]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Middle-Sea-History-Mediterranean/dp/1844133087

A Picture is worth a thousand words!

[The Puzzler]

Here's a simple question that should have a simple answer.

We know of a Bronze Age culture in the Nordic lands, why couldn't these people have been Fryans?

If not, why not?

The content of the thorough documentaries is intriguing. The stone carvings along the coast line between Copenhagen-Gothenburg-Oslo + Bergen and Trondheim have for centuries ... been unintelligible. This concerns the southern carvings from 2000-500 B.C.

The northern carvings in Fennoscandinavia (North Finland and -Norway, north of the map shown above) from the period 6000-2000 B.C. are more easily interpreted as those of hunter and gatherer peoples. As opposed to the northern carvings , the southern carvings (in Denmark, Sweden and Norway) include multifarious categories of elements that show close contact to the Atlantic facade of Europe and the inner Mediterranean.

Reinterpretation indicates not only that the bronze age technology in Scandinavia was second in Europe only to Mycenae in Greece, but also that contact was particularly strong between Scandinavia and the eastern Mediterranean areas and with Greece, in particular, in addition to India, Africa, Egypt, Phoenicia, and Italy. (the later Vikings also had contact with all these culture including India). When seen as an ideographic language (like Chinese and Egyptian hieroglyphs) the carvings tell stories of humans and Gods, of technology and travels.

'Recently' researchers started to compare the carvings and housing technology, ship and sail technology, chariots, burial techniques, armament, art and jewellery etc, - with other cultures and found amazing and very close similarities:

E.g. between Bohuslän (north of Gothenburg) and Ulster (Ireland); between Fyn (Danish island) and the Villa Nova culture in the Italian Alps; between Bergen (western Norway) and Spain; between Trondheim (middle Norway) and Egypt. There are close similarities to images (wall paintings, pottery etc) in Egypt and Northern Africa, but above all the similarities are between Scandinavia and Mycenae (90 km NW of Athens). The mythology and Gods seem similar. The Phoenician god Baal could well be the Nordic god Balder.

The Swedish archaeologist Sven Nilsson suggested 100 years ago that Scandinavia was a Phoenician trading outpost. He was never taken seriously. This may be supported by the "fact" that this culture appeared suddenly, similarly disappeared suddenly, and accordingly the following civilisation was less advanced. (I wonder how the archaeologists can be so sure of this 'fact' of sudden appearance and disappearance, some 3-4000 years ago - and what is "suddenly".)

The other possibility is that Scandinavians went south, as Jordanes claims in his The Origin and Deeds of the Goths .

This also fits nicely with genetic indications of a southward movement and Felice Vinci's articles "Homer in the Baltic", and Synesthesia and Homer's world , namely that the story of Homer's Illiaden actually took place in the Nordic countries (the geography described does not fit the Mediterranean but fits like a glove with the Nordic waters).

Whichever way the contact went, the most important trading item of the north seem to have been fur and above all amber, used as necklaces also by Egyptian pharaohs.

http://arno.daastol.com/history/NordicBronzeAge.html

Edited November 28, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Marsaten means lake- or marsh-dwellers.

But it's the pole-houses that are the key.

Pole-houses were not found in the Netherlands, nor described earlier than by Van Lennep (as far as we know).

The key is that a Van Lennep mentions pole houses 15 years before they were discovered in Switzerland.

One of the arguments for the OLB is that it mentions these pole houses "which were not known before then", but Van Lennep already did 15 years before the manuscript shows up for the first time.

I don't think Van Lennep just invented them.

[Abramelin]

It doesn't surprise me.

The Hebrew name for the Mediterranean is the Middle Sea, apparently a literal adaptation of Mittelmeer. It's still Middle Sea as a German equivalent.

In Modern Hebrew, it has been called HaYyam HaTtikhon (הַיָּם הַתִּיכוֹן), "the middle sea", a literal adaptation of the German equivalent Mittelmeer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea

Mittel Meer is simply Middle Sea, why is it so surprising that is actually what it was being called in Germanic languages?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Middle-Sea-History-Mediterranean/dp/1844133087

I already showed you that Van Lennep mentions the "Middle Sea" in the meaning of Mediterranean in his book, 1838.

And also that in an other of his books he talks about the Frisian Middle Sea.

[Abramelin]

If your supposed hoaxers based the pole-houses in Switzerland on the 1853 finds, why would they call their inhabitants Már-sata?

How did Van Lennep get his idea to add the idea of Pole-houses to the Marsati?

Actually, he didn't.

As I have shown you he mentions the Marezaten a couple of times as close neighbours of the Batavians, the Batavians who lived on 'an island' (between the rivers Rhine and Maas). But if you read his book about ancient Dutch history, you'll see he actually talks about the Batavians (he says something like they must have learned the art from beavers, lol).

[Abramelin]

Man, are you obstinate or what?

I have given you the website of the archaeological find and you quoted from it yourself. Now you ask for a source?

I sometimes wonder if you understand your own logic.

Yes, I saw it, and I didn't see a people called "Marsaten" being mentioned anywhere.

That is what I asked, not that these pole houses were built in a marshy area for it's obvious that people built these pole houses to keep there feet dry.