[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Knul]

ioulios sounds like Helios. It will have everything to do with each other imo.

You have bad ears.

[cormac mac airt]

Right, so you think it's possible from that time frame to be mentioned in the Kalevala etc.

No, I think you're trying to pidgeon-hole a connection with doesn't exist.

Everything points to the Kaali impact being closer to 2200BC because of the knowledge they kept of it...

Everything DOESN'T either. The dates, even from your own article, are nowhere near 2200 BC.

If you want to go with people recalling this event as far back as 3600BC go for it.

I wasn't saying they 'recalled' anything. Just that it happened. There is no evidence, specifically, that it was remembered or that it was 'what' was being remembered.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Cool find.

Bird flight, I suggested once that Athena might have been an ancient bird Goddess who directed sailors along in such a way.

And the boat looks like these:

http://www.thecobleinart.com/cobleorigins.htm

An Anglo-Saxon boat would have been about 25m long and could carry around 40 people. It was driven by oars and did not have a sail

http://www.3dhistory.co.uk/02Saxons.htm

This is a wonderful reconstruction of an Anglo-Saxon ship based on the Sutton Hoo excavation. The ship at Sutton Hoo was found buried underneath the earth with an extensive tomb and treasures hidden within, showing the immense significance of ships, trade and travel to this past culture. The Anglo-Saxons were excellent sailors who used the hwæl-weg (whale-way/ocean) on a daily basis. Can you imagine the man-power it would take to row this large, hand-made ship?

http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~beowulf/manual/imageIndex.html

===

Bird flight: it is known the Vikings had ravens onboard on their travels on the open ocean. To know if land was near they released the ravens, and if they didn't come back, land was near (and they very probably already did before they ever heard of Noach, lol). Even the ancient Indian (= from India) sailors used crows for the same purpose.

++++

The image I posted appears to originally have been part of a larger image:

http://www.collectomania.be/thumbme.aspx?src=1258.jpg

http://www.collectomania.be/default.aspx?reeksnr=1258&thema=150〈=nl&subthema=441

Or part of a set of images about navigation on sea:

http://www.benl.ebay.be/itm/LIEBIG-S-1258-Comment-on-soriente-mer-/120793181329

.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

You have bad ears.

Deaf or not, but when Puzz posted "Helios" I immediately thought about the "Heel Stone" (Stonehenge).

But look at what the Wiki page says:

The Heelstone is a single large block of sarsen stone standing within the Avenue outside the entrance of the Stonehenge earthwork, close to the main road (Highways Agency A344). In section it is sub-rectangular, with a minimum thickness of 8 ft (2.4m), rising to a tapered top about 16 ft (4.7m) high. Excavation has shown that a further 4 ft (1.2m) is buried in the ground. It is 254 ft (77.4m) from the center of Stonehenge circle. It leans towards the Southwest (pictured view) nearly 27 degrees from the vertical. The stone has an overall girth of 25 ft (7.6m) and weighs about 35 tons.

Myths and legends of the Devil striking a "Friar's Heel" with a stone resulted in its eccentric name, Heel Stone. Some claim "Friar's Heel" is a corruption of "Freyja's He-ol" or "Freyja Sul", from the Nordic goddess Freyja and (allegedly) the Welsh words for "way" and "Sunday" respectively. It is doubtful whether any prehistoric standing stone has experienced as many name changes and interpretations. Only in the past three decades have world scientists used the name Heelstone consistently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heelstone

+++++++++++

Freya in Welsh?

Actually, just researched it some more - this may not be the Norse Freya after all. I'll remove the link and query the corruption. tnx. sjc Later: Ffreya is also a Celtic/druidic goddess so this looks more convincing now, particularly when set against the ever-reliable Geoffrey of Monmouth's confabulations.... sjc

http://www.indopedia.org/index.php?title=Talk:Stonehenge&printable=yes

Edited December 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

This is fun: from boats to Heel Stone to Freya, and then to...

In Norse mythology, Sessrúmnir (Old Norse "seat-room" or "seat-roomer") is both the goddess Freyja's hall located in Fólkvangr, a field where Freyja receives half of those who die in battle, and also the name of a ship. Both the hall and the ship are attested in the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson. Scholarly theories have been proposed regarding a potential relation between the hall and the ship.

Sessrúmnir is specifically referred to as a hall in chapter 24 of the Prose Edda book Gylfaginning. After describing Fólkvangr, High tells Gangleri (described as king Gylfi in diguise) that Freyja has the hall Sessrúmnir, and that "it is large and beautiful".

Sessrúmnir is secondly referred to in chapter 20 of the Prose Edda book Skáldskaparmál. In the chapter, means of referring to Freyja are given, including a reference to Sessrúmnir: "possessor of the fallen slain and of Sessrúmnir [...]".Sessrúmnir is referenced a third and final time within a list of ship names in chapter 75.

Rudolf Simek theorizes that one of the two notions of Sessrúmnir (as a ship or as a hall) may come from a misunderstanding, as the meaning of the name can be understood in both cases as "space with many or roomy seats."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sessr%C3%BAmnir

==

Next is supposed to be an image of Freya (??), and notice the symbols on her right shoulder and forehead:

http://nshrine.com/shrine/Sessrumnir

[Abramelin]

Sessrúmnir, "Freya's Hall"?

This is what I posted:

Myths and legends of the Devil striking a "Friar's Heel" with a stone resulted in its eccentric name, Heel Stone. Some claim "Friar's Heel" is a corruption of "Freyja's He-ol" or "Freyja Sul", from the Nordic goddess Freyja and (allegedly) the Welsh words for "way" and "Sunday" respectively. It is doubtful whether any prehistoric standing stone has experienced as many name changes and interpretations. Only in the past three decades have world scientists used the name Heelstone consistently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heelstone

Someone thought this Freyja wasn't the Nordic Freya but a Celtic goddess called "Ffreya".

Isn't it possible that it wasn't the name of the Heel Stone or Sun Stone, but the name someone from the north gave to the whole megalithic complex of Stonehenge?

It has already been suggested that Stonehenge and the area around it was connected with a death cult. And that would fit Freya's "Sessrúmnir" quite nicely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sessr%C3%BAmnir

hall

O.E. heall "place covered by a roof, spacious roofed residence, temple, law-court," from P.Gmc. *khallo "to cover, hide" (cf. O.S., O.H.G. halla, Ger. halle, Du. hal, O.N. höll "hall;" O.E. hell, Goth. halja "hell"), from PIE base *kel- "to hide, conceal" (see cell). Sense of "entry, vestibule" evolved 17c., at a time when the doors opened onto the main room of a house. Older sense preserved in town hall, music hall, etc., and in university dormitory names.

salon

1690s, "large room or apartment in a palace or great house," from Fr. salon "reception room," from It. salone "large hall," from sala "hall," from a Germanic source (cf. O.E. sele, O.N. salr "hall," O.H.G. sal "hall, house," Ger. Saal), from P.Gmc. *salaz, from PIE *sel- "human settlement" (cf. O.C.S. selo "courtyard, village," Lith. sala "village").

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=hall&searchmode=none

The old name of such halls may have been sal/salr and thus be present in old place names such as "Uppsala"[1]. The meaning has been preserved in German Saal, Dutch zaal and Swedish sal (all meaning "hall" or "large room"). In Old English, sele and sæl were used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mead_hall

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/zaal

Stonehenge... Freya's Hall .... the original of the OLB citadel??

Just a thought.

++++++++

A representation of an OLB citadel according to Overwijn, 1941:

Stonehenge:

.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

All very interesting, I'll add to that soon but noticed something:

The atom.

-----------

Freya Sul, like Sol, Sun, the Heelstone, maybe Fréya's Hall. Uppsala sounds right to me, as you said, with sala as hall. Heall stone, hall stone, entrance to the hall...

It seems likely that it was used to calculate a year had gone by imo.

Solstice recording seems very old, celebrating it for the arrival and completion of it's circuit around the Earth, designating one year had passed.

I keep seeing a clock face when I'm thinking about the whole concept and a 360 degree circle broken down.

If you think about the ancient thought, I reckon Atlantis is possibly relative to the Universe as Earth is the middle, the Moon circles us, that's the giveaway, the narrow first canal, then Venus, Mercury etc, each one to the next is a ring of water then land.

[The Puzzler]

You have bad ears.

Julio is pronounced Hulio - you know, Julio Iglesias.. i is j and j is pronounced h.

H iouLios

you think that doesn't sound the same? In my language it does.

[Abramelin]

Julio is pronounced Hulio - you know, Julio Iglesias.. i is j and j is pronounced h.

H iouLios

you think that doesn't sound the same? In my language it does.

Heh, no, the -J- of Julio is not pronounced with an -H-. Or should not be, anyway.

It's the same gutteral sound most English speaking people hate or are just unable pronounce.

Ask someone from Scotland, the Netherlands, Israel or any Arab country to pronounce it for you.

The -J- in Julio is the same consonant as the -CH- in Loch Ness.

Lol, it's the same sound you make when in summer a little fly flew into your throat, and you want to get the bugger out again.

Well, it would sound close.

[Abramelin]

All very interesting, I'll add to that soon but noticed something:

The atom.

-----------

Freya Sul, like Sol, Sun, the Heelstone, maybe Fréya's Hall. Uppsala sounds right to me, as you said, with sala as hall. Heall stone, hall stone, entrance to the hall...

It seems likely that it was used to calculate a year had gone by imo.

Solstice recording seems very old, celebrating it for the arrival and completion of it's circuit around the Earth, designating one year had passed.

I keep seeing a clock face when I'm thinking about the whole concept and a 360 degree circle broken down.

If you think about the ancient thought, I reckon Atlantis is possibly relative to the Universe as Earth is the middle, the Moon circles us, that's the giveaway, the narrow first canal, then Venus, Mercury etc, each one to the next is a ring of water then land.

Cheers, lol.

The atom??

But yeah, SUL, SOL, SAL, HEEL, HAL, HEOL, HELIOS... people may have misinterpreted the word they heard.

When I first entered the internet I was amazed how many times people used a Dutch word for having fun: "LOL".

Then I found out it was an abbreviation of Laughing Out Loud.

_____

Lol, een ander woord voor pret of plezier.

Lol, another [Dutch] word for fun or pleasure

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lol

.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Heh, no, the -J- of Julio is not pronounced with an -H-. Or should not be, anyway.

It's the same gutteral sound most English speaking people hate or are just unable pronounce.

Ask someone from Scotland, the Netherlands, Israel or any Arab country to pronounce it for you.

The -J- in Julio is the same consonant as the -CH- in Loch Ness.

Lol, it's the same sound you make when in summer a little fly flew into your throat, and you want to get the bugger out again.

Well, it would sound close.

Whatever. We say h sound whether it's the gutteral haightch or however you say your h's, it's the same sound - for j in those words. I still think ioulios is Helios, to me it makes sense in all manners, including meaning youthful and Helios is always shown as youthful and handsome.

Me and Julio down by the schoolyard:

[The Puzzler]

The atom, yes, the speck of dust (stof). Reminds me of Adam.

The origin, then it radiates around the arms as it turns, but central is the speck, maybe the Pole Star, since it's also drawn as an asterism on Sami shaman drums.

The concept of the universe as a mill or machine rotating about its axis could date from the 5th century BC, when geared machinery for mills was in use, but the idea may be very much older and based on simpler machines than the complex geared mechanisms developed by then. In Indian mythology, Vishnu is pictured on the central mountain axis of the universe in the primordial ocean of milk, a serpent coiled about, gods and demons pulling at its head and tail, thus rotating the central mountain and churning the milky oceans to create the things in the world.

The Pole Star above us, is us below imo, the mirror image, as above, so below, maybe even 3 layers or 'worlds'. One under us also.

The speck, the star that they first noticed everything going around, Vega c. 8000BC, at the end of the ice age when things warmed up, and the Sun began to generate heat that warmed the Earth, fertilised it with it's rays and rained upon it, this in turn, impregnated Earth (Mother) and seeds sprouted, buds formed, baby plants grew, like corn - corn is us, the baby who grows into an adult. The growth of the Earth as children of the Mother are equated to the same as us really.

I was thinking about Horagalles - who seems to be the Phoenician/Tyrian Heracles - and the nail in his head - what the hell does that mean???

Then I notice this: At times in history, this was marked by a star which seemed to fix the top of the universe in its place. So the pole star has been called the Nail Star, or northern nail. The celestial pole also marked the place where the heavens were upheld by the world tree which had its branches in the sky, and its roots in the underworld below the land where people lived, and up which the shaman could climb to intervene with the gods. This central axis of the world, about which the rest appears to revolve, has also been visualized as a mountain or a pillar.

http://www.cosmicelk.net/magicmill.htm

The Nail Star - might explain it - could it be the Pole Star - the Nail going through Horagalles head?

He appears to represent the ACTUAL tree itself. Don't forget his rainbow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horagalles

SPeaking of, at that time, when bright Vega was Pole Star, just as the ice age was beginning to end - as you watch the Pole Star, you would note that the other stars went around them, which in time, became constellations - you have Lyra, Cygnus and Draco, as well as Heracles, who maybe bought alot of storms and thunder, lightening etc, as the worlds temperatures adjusted anew, the lightening strike is the world tree. imo. Copper is the best conductor of electricity,(ie; receive a lightening strike/message from God) the Magyar had weapons or tools of copper.

I know they are Greek names etc, but imo again, these pictures in the sky would have been known about, stories created based on their movements so they didn't lose the knowledge of the stars, over time it's been lost.

Heracles is probably going around the Zodiac in his 12 labours, Troy is probably another story that is really about the Heavens as Atlantis will be too. But at those times catastrophes have occurred on Earth, which creates a myth to start with. 26,000 years is precession. Just some thoughts.

In the Kalevala, the collection of Finnish folk tales compiled in the 19th century by Elias Lönnrot, is the story of the Sampo. The Sampo was a magic mill with a many-coloured cover, which as it spun round ground out salt, grain and coins - prosperity in fact. It was made by "craftsman" and "eternal smith" Ilmarinen (his name derives from the meaning "world") for Louhi, Queen and Shamaness of the Northern Land. Louhi kept the Sampo locked behind nine locks in the copper mountain where it put down three roots and ground out prosperity for the northern lands. Ilmarinen formed part of the team of three shaman- blacksmith heros who plan to steal the Sampo. One is "steadfast" "old" Väinämöinen, player of the kantele (a stringed instrument) charming all who hear the music, creator of the world. Son of Kalev (the giant god of time who lived inside a mountain occasionally riding forth on horseback armed to the teeth), so he knew the rounds of the stars, the Moon and the Sun, and noted how much time it was from the coming of the birds until summer.

The third hero is "restless" Lemminkäinen whose name comes from a word for "love" and who in one story is killed and dismembered into little pieces by Louhi, but is put back together and restored to life by his mother.

These three heros find the Sampo and break through the nine locks, but have to enlist the aid of a monster bull to uproot it. They carry off the Sampo in their arms to their boat. Louhi gives chase and calls up a terrific storm. The Sampo is broken. Part falls into the sea where it grinds out salt forever. Väinämöinen rescues other bits of the Sampo and buries them in the soil. Trees and crops flourish here, while the North, without the Sampo is barren. In revenge Louhi steals and hides the Sun and Moon, and Ilmarinen makes replacements to use until they get the real ones back. (Legends about the stealing of the Sun and Moon are found all over the world).

and this

The biggest happened about 6,100BC (the Mesolithic) and that was the one that left Britain as an island, it was caused by landslides in Norway - the Storegga Slides -and triggered a massive tsunami some 10m. high, which flooded the low-lying lands and the marshy river lands changing north-east Europe into the islands which are now Britain and Ireland. Some evidence of the disaster and the survivors have been found on the north-east coast of Scotland and from the Solent where the remains of 8,000 year old log boats have been found.

and this...

There were several legends to explain the inclination of the North Pole. The height of the North Pole above the horizon depends on the latitude above the equator where it is on the horizon. Only at the North Pole where no one lives can it be seen overhead. To observers it appears that the pole has slipped from its obvious proper position overhead. This feeling would be reinforced by the acquired knowledge that the pole has moved and it no longer marked by the same star. The thought that the axis of the universe was capable of slipping out of place was an alarming prospect and is recorded in many legends.

In Saami mythology, when the star Arcturus (which represented World-Surveyor-Man who watches over the world and safeguards the Sun) shoots down the Northern Nail with his arrow, the heaven will fall, crushing the Earth and setting fire to everything. It is the last day.

A similar story is told by Plato in his Timaeus in which an aged Egyptian priest tells Solon the 6th century ruler of Athens, in a story supposedly related by Critias: who may have told it to Plato in the first place:

"Your own story of how Phaethon, child of the Sun harnessed his father's chariot, but was unable to guide it along his father's course and so burnt things on the Earth and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt, is a mythical version of the truth that there is at long intervals a variation in the course of the heavenly bodies and a consequent widespread destruction by fire of things on the Earth."

http://www.cosmicelk.net/magicmill.htm

So, is Phaethon the Pole Star or a comet, maybe both, the Pole Star dropped as a comet hit, both were seen as one. (see Aristotles Meteorology for what the knowledge of the day was to the Pythagoreans.)

Edited December 26, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Freya's way as a possible original name of the Heel stone is interesting. Hall stone. Stonehenge was possibly referred to as a temple of Apollo. Apollo as a twin and Freya as a twin (to Freyr) is co-incidental too.

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cormac, I accept the date of Kaali is still disputed, that's my opinion on it though.

[The Puzzler]

How about the fall of Thuban of Draco? In 1900BC it officially departed, it would have been seen as beginning to fall sometime earlier imo.

Kochab appraoched at this time as was the Pole Star beginning c. 1500BC, maybe co-inciding with Thera..

Kochab was a Twin Guardian of the Pole, with Pherkad.

Beta Ursae Minoris (β UMi, β Ursae Minoris) is the brightest star in the bowl of the "Little Dipper" (which is part of the constellation Ursa Minor), and only slightly fainter than Polaris, the northern pole star and brightest star in Ursa Minor. It has the traditional name Kochab. Kochab's magnitude is 2.07.[1] It is 16 degrees from Polaris. The star is an orange giant and is 126.4 ± 2.5 light years from Earth.[1] It is 130 times more luminous than the Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kochab

I'm thinking now at the time the Pole Star fell, reading that article, it's clear now: When the Pole Star moves out of it's position - To observers it appears that the pole has slipped from its obvious proper position overhead. This feeling would be reinforced by the acquired knowledge that the pole has moved and it no longer marked by the same star. The thought that the axis of the universe was capable of slipping out of place was an alarming prospect and is recorded in many legends.

Link in above post.

The Universe is slipping out of place. The sky is falling.

[Abramelin]

Freya's way as a possible original name of the Heel stone is interesting. Hall stone. Stonehenge was possibly referred to as a temple of Apollo. Apollo as a twin and Freya as a twin (to Freyr) is co-incidental too.

---------------------

cormac, I accept the date of Kaali is still disputed, that's my opinion on it though.

Here are a few other figurines depicting Freya in her 'hall', Sessrúmnir:

http://scienceblogs.com/aardvarchaeology/2009/11/odin_from_lejre_no_its_freya.php

http://www.jelldragon.com/viking_pendants.htm

[Abramelin]

How about the fall of Thuban of Draco? In 1900BC it officially departed, it would have been seen as beginning to fall sometime earlier imo.

Kochab appraoched at this time as was the Pole Star beginning c. 1500BC, maybe co-inciding with Thera..

Kochab was a Twin Guardian of the Pole, with Pherkad.

Beta Ursae Minoris (β UMi, β Ursae Minoris) is the brightest star in the bowl of the "Little Dipper" (which is part of the constellation Ursa Minor), and only slightly fainter than Polaris, the northern pole star and brightest star in Ursa Minor. It has the traditional name Kochab. Kochab's magnitude is 2.07.[1] It is 16 degrees from Polaris. The star is an orange giant and is 126.4 ± 2.5 light years from Earth.[1] It is 130 times more luminous than the Sun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kochab

I'm thinking now at the time the Pole Star fell, reading that article, it's clear now: When the Pole Star moves out of it's position - To observers it appears that the pole has slipped from its obvious proper position overhead. This feeling would be reinforced by the acquired knowledge that the pole has moved and it no longer marked by the same star. The thought that the axis of the universe was capable of slipping out of place was an alarming prospect and is recorded in many legends.

Link in above post.

The Universe is slipping out of place. The sky is falling.

Thuban is hardly visible with the naked eye.

Somehow I don't think that the pole star slipping out of its position over many thousands of years would be that dramatic. It's just a few degrees (maybe less) over on an enormous span of time.

[Abramelin]

If this is true:

Some claim "Friar's Heel" is a corruption of "Freyja's He-ol" or "Freyja Sul", from the Nordic goddess Freyja and (allegedly) the Welsh words for "way" and "Sunday" respectively.

..then Freya's star would be the Sun.

I think the interpretation of "Heel" or "He-ol" being the sun is influenced by what they later found out using archeoastronomy and by reconstructing Stonehenge.

If you look at images of Stonehenge in the 19th century and earlier, not many stones are standing upright, and how long ago did they fall down?

That Stonehenge (=the megalithic stones) was inside a large circle has always been visible as far as I know. I can imagine that whoever gave it the name "Freya's Hall" must've assumed that the stones in the middle of the complex were the remnants of some huge temple.

If the figurines do indeed depict Freya in her hall Sessrúmnir then that 'hall' must have been circular and huge, just like the Stonehenge complex.

.

Edited December 26, 2011 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

Alewyn, I find your research results very interresting & plausible.

I have not read the full thread, so excuse me if the subject was allready covered before.

Do you have any thoughts/links in your book/research about the linguistic theories set forth by scientists as Becanus, Schrieck and consorts?

Is there no similar discussion going on in your area (and fora I see ;-) as with the Becanus/Scopius views against the Lipsius/Scalliger alikes?

In short: the classical view of "Latin <- Greek <- Egypt is the way of our civilisation/language", does not stand anymore ... seems to be the bottomline.

If you look it linguistic, or mythological. Even more so if there truly were some 'errors' in the dark age timeline.

But as I understood from readers of OLB, this story is mainly told as a 'Fries' story.

[Van Gorp]

About Joel, Jol, Youlios:

When this feast was about the coming together of all the worlds at the end of the cycle (ultima Thule, thule-tieme Tsjoël -> het doel as is meant in Dutch for the ultimate aim),

When this point is reached, it brings "t ultiem geluk", really "Jolich" see 'jolig' in Flemish, mijn jolijke ik.

They Joelde in 2 different meanings:

1) The death 'Tsjoolde' (see the flemish verb: 'tjoln', wandering around I think they call it in English) among the living at Jol

2) The living 'Joelde' from Joy

When Jolius is radiant as the youth, it has to do with the birth of the sun and the reflection of the light (that means that we are delighted).

That's why we call jewels as we call them (originally JUweeL, the wheel of Jol is fulfilled and brings the light -> makes the world radiant and receptive for the ultimate Joy)

[The Puzzler]

About Joel, Jol, Youlios:

When this feast was about the coming together of all the worlds at the end of the cycle (ultima Thule, thule-tieme Tsjoël -> het doel as is meant in Dutch for the ultimate aim),

When this point is reached, it brings "t ultiem geluk", really "Jolich" see 'jolig' in Flemish, mijn jolijke ik.

They Joelde in 2 different meanings:

1) The death 'Tsjoolde' (see the flemish verb: 'tjoln', wandering around I think they call it in English) among the living at Jol

2) The living 'Joelde' from Joy

When Jolius is radiant as the youth, it has to do with the birth of the sun and the reflection of the light (that means that we are delighted).

That's why we call jewels as we call them (originally JUweeL, the wheel of Jol is fulfilled and brings the light -> makes the world radiant and receptive for the ultimate Joy)

Interesting and thanks for joining us Van Gorp.

The mention of the Jewel reminded me I read this:

In Scandinavian mythology the Norse gods made the Universe out of the bits and pieces of the hacked-up bodies of their defeated enemies. To finish the job they hammered an enormous spike, called Veralder Nagli, or "World Spike," into the center of the Universe and made the sky revolve about it. The end of the spike had a jeweled nail-head, which remained forever fixed on the great sky dome as Polaris.

http://207.73.100.22/lms/planetarium/myth/polaris.html

[Otharus]

About Joel, Jol, Youlios:

When this feast was about the coming together of all the worlds at the end of the cycle (ultima Thule, thule-tieme Tsjoël -> het doel as is meant in Dutch for the ultimate aim),

When this point is reached, it brings "t ultiem geluk", really "Jolich" see 'jolig' in Flemish, mijn jolijke ik.

They Joelde in 2 different meanings:

1) The death 'Tsjoolde' (see the flemish verb: 'tjoln', wandering around I think they call it in English) among the living at Jol

2) The living 'Joelde' from Joy

When Jolius is radiant as the youth, it has to do with the birth of the sun and the reflection of the light (that means that we are delighted).

That's why we call jewels as we call them (originally JUweeL, the wheel of Jol is fulfilled and brings the light -> makes the world radiant and receptive for the ultimate Joy)

Thank you for joining indeed VG, you are very welcome.

This discussion needs someone who knows about Flemish and etymology, even - or I would say specially - if it's 'alternative', unofficial etymology!

The associations with JOL you added are very interesting and plausible.

To resume and add to that:

JOL

Thule

Tol (Dutch word for spinning toy; whirlabout?)

Toll (German word for 'great', super)

Dolen (Dutch for wander about, walking in circles)

Tjoln, Tsjolen (Flemish version)

Jolly (the English word)

Jolig, Jolich, Jolik (Dutch/ Flemish version)

Joelen, Jolen (Dutch/ Flemish for: to cheer, to howl)

Jewel

Juweel (Dutch version)

Sol, Helios, Julius, etcetera as Puzzler pointed out.

I would not be surprised is the Dutch "Lol" (fun, joy) would be related too.

(I know that in Westfriesland "Jol" is also a family name, and of course there is "Van Jole")

I'm sure we can make this list much longer, which is only normal, considering the importance and symbolic meaning of the JOL.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Otharus

[Alewyn]

Alewyn, I find your research results very interresting & plausible.

I have not read the full thread, so excuse me if the subject was allready covered before.

Do you have any thoughts/links in your book/research about the linguistic theories set forth by scientists as Becanus, Schrieck and consorts?

Is there no similar discussion going on in your area (and fora I see ;-) as with the Becanus/Scopius views against the Lipsius/Scalliger alikes?

In short: the classical view of "Latin <- Greek <- Egypt is the way of our civilisation/language", does not stand anymore ... seems to be the bottomline.

If you look it linguistic, or mythological. Even more so if there truly were some 'errors' in the dark age timeline.

But as I understood from readers of OLB, this story is mainly told as a 'Fries' story.

Hi Van Gorp,

My apologies for only responding now but I do not look at this forum every day.

I am afraid you have to address linguistic questions to people like Puzzler, Abramelin and Otharus. They are far more knowledgeable on the subject than I am.

The investigations into the OLB over the last 140 years by others mainly concentrated on the language it was written in. The conclusions reached were not conclusive, in my opinion, and I decided to approach the OLB from a somewhat different angle. I wanted to see whether we have any other historical and scientific evidence that can bear out the (preposterous) claims made in the book – especially those facts that were not known in the 19th century when the book first surfaced. From that angle I believe that I have proven beyond reasonable doubt that the OLB is not a 19th century hoax. The historical picture that emerged is very fascinating and shows that our entrenched perceptions of early antiquity are simply wrong.

The others here have discovered a lot of supporting evidence to my stance but, if I was to include it all in my book, I would have to update it at least once a month, e.g. the very interesting posts by Abramelin recently regarding Halley and Stonehenge. (Lol, there I go sucking up again). That would make my book somewhat intimidating and unappealing to the average reader.

The debate and further investigations here is exactly what I had hoped for. Thus far the evidence against the hoax theory has been mounting steadily whereas the arguments in favour of the hoax theory are whittling away.

I may just add that the OLB does not describe a bolide impact or impacts with earth; that is my interpretation from the description before and after “the bad times” in the book as well as from other sources. It is interesting, though, that others have also reached the same conclusion long before me, e.g. Halley, Velikovsky, Plato, etc. The scientific community (in certain circles) is now also looking seriously at this. I have no doubt that they will soon find out that earth is suffering much more frequently from disastrous impacts than was thought until now (that is, rather every few hundred or thousand years rather than every few million years).

Who knows, perhaps someone here will even write a sequel to my book, LOL.

[The Puzzler]

Thank you for joining indeed VG, you are very welcome.

This discussion needs someone who knows about Flemish and etymology, even - or I would say specially - if it's 'alternative', unofficial etymology!

The associations with JOL you added are very interesting and plausible.

To resume and add to that:

JOL

Thule

Tol (Dutch word for spinning toy; whirlabout?)

Toll (German word for 'great', super)

Dolen (Dutch for wander about, walking in circles)

Tjoln, Tsjolen (Flemish version)

Jolly (the English word)

Jolig, Jolich, Jolik (Dutch/ Flemish version)

Joelen, Jolen (Dutch/ Flemish for: to cheer, to howl)

Jewel

Juweel (Dutch version)

Sol, Helios, Julius, etcetera as Puzzler pointed out.

I would not be surprised is the Dutch "Lol" (fun, joy) would be related too.

(I know that in Westfriesland "Jol" is also a family name, and of course there is "Van Jole")

I'm sure we can make this list much longer, which is only normal, considering the importance and symbolic meaning of the JOL.

I was thinking of loll in English when Abe said lol...

But I'd be hesitant to add Jolly in, as the etymology tends to, imo, lead to the words joy + life.

jolly (adj.)

c.1300 (late 13c. as a surname), from O.Fr. jolif "festive, merry, amorous, pretty" (12c.) of uncertain origin (cf. It. giulivo "merry, pleasant"). Perhaps a Germanic loan-word from a source akin to O.N. jol "a winter feast" (see yule), or from L. gaudere "to rejoice," from PIE *gau- “to rejoice” (see joy).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=jolly

PIE gau would be joi/joy + lif

rather than jol-if.

[Knul]

About Joel, Jol, Youlios:

When this feast was about the coming together of all the worlds at the end of the cycle (ultima Thule, thule-tieme Tsjoël -> het doel as is meant in Dutch for the ultimate aim),

When this point is reached, it brings "t ultiem geluk", really "Jolich" see 'jolig' in Flemish, mijn jolijke ik.

They Joelde in 2 different meanings:

1) The death 'Tsjoolde' (see the flemish verb: 'tjoln', wandering around I think they call it in English) among the living at Jol

2) The living 'Joelde' from Joy

When Jolius is radiant as the youth, it has to do with the birth of the sun and the reflection of the light (that means that we are delighted).

That's why we call jewels as we call them (originally JUweeL, the wheel of Jol is fulfilled and brings the light -> makes the world radiant and receptive for the ultimate Joy)

Joelen has a different etymology from joel-yule. Joelen is an onomatopee, more like huilen - howl s. http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/joelen.

[Otharus]

"Perhaps a Germanic loan-word from a source akin to O.N. jol "a winter feast" (see yule)"

Dutch - English

jolig - jolly

prettig - pretty

zonnig - sunny

fruitig - fruity