[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

I meant about the fact that Northern Europe actually existed outside of itself during the Bronze Age and may have had an impact on Mediterranean society at this time, the more we find they had contact and travelled more, the more we will see how their ideas were taken back in to Greece and Rome or exisited there in the first place more like it, overlapping dominant cultures erasing history they found unacceptable, I mean even in ancient Roman times, when Virgil would have wrote, commisioned by governments to create elaborate histories, how ironic if it be found the true history is the one now being called a fabrication.

[The Puzzler]

NE ... NAVT is a most common construction in the OLB to make a sentence negative (like French: ne ... pas).

How about this. Throughout the OLB the word wér is used to refer to warriors so it got me to thinking the word might be like this.

akin to Old High German werra strife; akin to Old High German werran to confuse, and, I suppose, wars can be a little confusing.

war

late O.E. (c.1050), wyrre, werre, from O.N.Fr. werre "war" (Fr. guerre), from Frank. *werra, from P.Gmc. *werso (cf. O.S. werran, O.H.G. werran, Ger. verwirren "to confuse, perplex"). Cognates suggest the original sense was "to bring into confusion."

http://etymonline.com/?term=war

ha could be have from habban (Old Saxon)

nildet could be not wanted/didn't want

The Mother didn't want to have no war/strife.

[Otharus]

How about this. Throughout the OLB the word wér is used to refer to warriors so it got me to thinking the word might be like this.

Have a good look at the following fragments:

[page 153/ line 09]

THÉRVMBE NIL HI NÉNE MODER WÉR HÁ

Therefore he doesn't want to have a mother back/again

Sandbach: "therefore he will not have the mother again"

[page 067/ line 22]

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA

Sandbach: "If you wish to be free again"

[The Puzzler]

Have a good look at the following fragments:

[page 153/ line 09]

THÉRVMBE NIL HI NÉNE MODER WÉR HÁ

Therefore he doesn't want to have a mother back/again

Sandbach: "therefore he will not have the mother again"

[page 067/ line 22]

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA

Sandbach: "If you wish to be free again"

...and what happened to all the errors you thought Sandbach made?

Wilst wêr fry wêsa aend vnder mina rêd aend hoda lêva, tjaen ut then, wêpne skilun thi wrda, aend ik skil wâka o-er thi.

If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away. I will provide you with arms, and will watch over you.

The word wêr above is imo true/truly.

wêr/truly + fry/free + wêsa/become

ie; If you wish to become truly free...

I'm using Frisian words only, no Dutch.

----------------------------

PS Edit: I found this online book called An Introduction to Old Frisian, you all might have seen it, I hadn't.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uWYsSOp6g58C&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=w%C3%A9ra+frisian&source=bl&ots=wYcuFew22R&sig=XNFti2lgu9yk5J12lCKuzuCeigU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pBAUT8CfO66kiAfBlt1D&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Edited January 16, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Sandbach did make errors while translating from Ottema's Dutch translation, and he also regularly added lines for no apparent reason or left out things.

I hope you did not forget about that.

But that doesn't mean he was always wrong, of course.

[The Puzzler]

Sandbach did make errors while translating from Ottema's Dutch translation, and he also regularly added lines for no apparent reason or left out things.

I hope you did not forget about that.

But that doesn't mean he was always wrong, of course.

So, what do you think it says, above?

Where is an etymology for wer being again in Frisian?

I've looked for 2 days, I can find 100 for wer/wera/wertha....

we-r, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Mann; ne. man; Vw.: s. -jeld; Hw.: vgl. got. waír, an.

verr (1), ae. wer (1), as. wer* (1), ahd. wer* (2); E.: germ. *wera-, *weraz, st. M.

(a), Mann; idg. *øÂros, Adj., M., kräftig, Mann, Pokorny 1177; s. idg. *øei- (3),

*øeØý-, *øÆ-, V., gehen, erstreben, ersehnen, erjagen, wollen (V.), kräftig sein (V.),

Pokorny 1123; L.: Hh 127a, Rh 1136a

wÐr* 12, afries., Adj.: nhd. wahr, wahrheitsgetreu, wirklich, gültig; ne. true,

truthful; Vw.: s. -haf-t-e-lik, -haf-t-ich, -haf-t-ic-hê-d, -hê-d, -lik, -lÆk-man-n; Hw.:

vgl. got. *wÐreis, an. vÏrr (2), ae. wÚr (3), as. hwõr*, wõr* (1), ahd. wõr* (1); Q.:

R, H, W, E, B; E.: germ. *wÐra-, *wÐraz, *wÚra-, *wÚraz, *wÐrja-, *wÐrjaz,

*wÚrja-, *wÚrjaz, Adj., zuverlässig, wahr, freundlich; idg. *øeræs-, Adj., freundlich,

vertrauenswert, wahr, Pokorny 1165; s. idg. *øer- (11), *øerý-, Sb., Freundlichkeit,

Pokorny 1165; W.: nfries. wier, Adj., wahr, wirklich; W.: saterl. wer, Adj., wahr,

wirklich; W.: nnordfries. wer, Adj., wahr, wirklich; L.: Hh 127b, Rh 1135b; R.: at

wÐr-a, afries., Adv.: nhd. fürwahr; ne. indeed, truly; L.: Hh 151b

wer-a (1) 1 und häufiger?, war-a (2), afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Besitzer; ne. owner;

Hw.: s. *war-a (1); E.: s. germ. *warjan, sw. V., wehren, abhalten, schützen; idg.

*øer- (5), V., schließen, decken, schützen, retten, wehren, abwehren, Pokorny

1160; L.: Hh 127b

wer-a (2) 1, war-a (3), afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. Gewähr leisten, einstehen; ne. be

liable; Hw.: vgl. ahd. werÐn* (1); Q.: E, AA 102; E.: s. germ. *wera, Sb., Vertrag,

Bündnis; vgl. idg. *øer- (11), *øerý-, Sb., Freundlichkeit, Pokorny 1165; L.: Hh

127b, Rh 1136a, AA 102

wer-a (3) 16, war-a (4), afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. verteidigen, abwehren; ne. defend;

ÜG.: lat. dÐfendere AB (94, 6); Vw.: s. bi-, *of-; Hw.: s. wer-e-re; vgl. got.

warjan*, an. verja (4), ae. w’rian (1), as. werian* (2), ahd. werien* (1); Q.: E, R,

W, H, B, AB (94, 6), AA 102; E.: germ. *warjan, sw. V., wehren, abhalten,

schützen; idg. *øer- (5), V., schließen, decken, schützen, retten, wehren, abwehren,

Pokorny 1160; W.: nfries. werren, V., verteidigen, abwehren; L.: Hh 127b, Rh

1136b, AA 102

wÐr-a (1) 6, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. beweisen; ne. prove; Hw.: s. wÐr-ia; vgl. ahd.

wõren*; Q.: R, W, S; E.: germ. *wÐrjan, *wÚrjan, sw. V., beweisen; s. idg. *øer-

(11), *øerý-. Sb., Freundlichkeit, Pokorny 1165; L.: Hh 127b, Rh 1136b

wÐr-a (2), afries., Konj., Präp.: Vw.: s. wÐr-e

wer-th (1) 7, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Wert; ne. worth (N.); Vw.: s. -man-n, -mun-d;

Hw.: vgl. got. waírþ*, an. verOE, ae. weorþ (2), anfrk. werd, as. werth*, ahd. werd

(2); Q.: S, E, B, H, W; E.: germ. *werþa-, *werþam, *werþja-, *werþjam, st. N.

(a), Wert, Preis, Kaufsumme; s. idg. *øert-, V., drehen, wenden, Pokorny 1156;

vgl. idg. *øer- (3), V., drehen, biegen, Pokorny 1152; W.: nfries. wird; L.: Hh 128b,

Rh 1143a

wer-th (2) 8, afries., Adj.: nhd. wert, würdig, gültig; ne. worth (Adj.); Vw.: s.

ful-l-; Hw.: vgl. got. waírþs (1), an. verOEr (2), ae. weorþ (1), as. werth* (2), ahd.

werd* (1); Q.: R, E, W, AA 160; E.: germ. *werþa-, *werþaz, *werþja-, *werþjaz,

Adj., angemessen, wert, würdig; s. idg. *øert-, V., drehen, wenden, Pokorny 1156;

vgl. idg. *øer- (3), V., drehen, biegen, Pokorny 1152; L.: Hh 129a, Rh 1143a, AA

160

wer-th* (3) 1 und häufiger?, wer-d, wir-th, wir-d, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. »Wörth«,

Insel, Geländeerhebung im Feuchtgebiet; ne. island, hollock in a swampy area;

Hw.: vgl. as. *werith?, ahd. werid*; E.: s. germ. *wariþa-, *wariþam, st. N. (a),

Werder, Wörth, Insel; vgl. idg. *øer- (5), V., schließen, decken, schützen, retten,

wehren, abwehren, Pokorny 1160; L.: Hh 129a, Hh 182

*-wer-th (4), afries., Suff.: Vw.: s. *-war-d

wer-th-a (1) 84, afries., st. V. (3b): nhd. werden, zufallen (V.) (2); ne. become,

fall (V.) to; Vw.: s. for-, lâ-s-; Hw.: s. n-er-th-a; vgl. got. waírþan, an. verOEa (1),

ae. weorþan, anfrk. werthan, as. werthan*, ahd. werdan*; Q.: S, R, B, W, E, H;

E.: germ. *werþan, st. V., wenden, werden; idg. *øert-, V., drehen, wenden,

Pokorny 1156; s. idg. *øer- (3), V., drehen, biegen, Pokorny 1152; W.: nfries.

wirdden, V., werden; W.: nnordfries. warde, V., werden; R.: a-wei wer-th-a 1,

afries., V.: nhd. wegkommen; ne. come (V.) away; L.: Rh 616b; R.: lâ-s wer-th-a,

afries., V.: nhd. loswerden; ne. get rid of; L.: Hh 129a, Rh 1143a

wer-th-a (2), afries., sw. V. (1): Vw.: s. wir-th-a

Also including all *PIE words to do with wer, as in 'to turn' (which I think Knul was saying was again - ie; worth (2)

"to come to be," now chiefly, if not solely, in the archaic expression woe worth the day, present subjunctive of O.E. weorðan "to become, be, to befall," from P.Gmc. *werthan "to become" (cf. O.S., O.Du. werthan, O.N. verða, O.Fris. wertha, - my add on: wertha is in the OLB, not as wer.ha O.H.G. werdan, Ger. werden, Goth. wairþan "to become"), lit. "to turn into," from P.Gmc. *werthaz “toward, opposite,” perhaps a derivative of PIE *wert- "to turn, wind," from base *wer- "to turn, bend") wer as in man, warrior, war and every other assorted versions of wer and wêr. I've searched the original Tresoar OLB and the transliteration given by Ottema and compared it all to Sandbach, whose translation is very bad, now I see it clearer. Nothing convinces me this word is again, either wer or wer.ha.

That's not taking into account every spelling variation of those words and any others that relate to wer or werha, I DON'T see 'again' in any form.

I am not using other languages, to me, it should work in some form of Fryan/Frisian, not Dutch, not English, not anything else.

So, what do you think it is Abe?

Edited January 16, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Otharus]

Where is an etymology for wer being again in Frisian?

Do you assume that all OLB words can be found in (old-) Frisian dictionaries?

Some words are more similar to Dutch, other more to English, other more to German and yet other more than 'Scandinavian'.

From the context (3 fragments), it is clear that one of the meanings of WÉR in OLB is back/ again, just like WEER in Dutch, and WIEDER in German.

[Abramelin]

So, what do you think it says, above?

Where is an etymology for wer being again in Frisian?

I've looked for 2 days, I can find 100 for wer/wera/wertha....

we-r, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Mann; ne. man; Vw.: s. -jeld; Hw.: vgl. got. waír, an.

verr (1), ae. wer (1), as. wer* (1), ahd. wer* (2); E.: germ. *wera-, *weraz, st. M.

(a), Mann; idg. *øÂros, Adj., M., kräftig, Mann, Pokorny 1177; s. idg. *øei- (3),

*øeØý-, *øÆ-, V., gehen, erstreben, ersehnen, erjagen, wollen (V.), kräftig sein (V.),

Pokorny 1123; L.: Hh 127a, Rh 1136a

wÐr* 12, afries., Adj.: nhd. wahr, wahrheitsgetreu, wirklich, gültig; ne. true,

truthful; Vw.: s. -haf-t-e-lik, -haf-t-ich, -haf-t-ic-hê-d, -hê-d, -lik, -lÆk-man-n; Hw.:

vgl. got. *wÐreis, an. vÏrr (2), ae. wÚr (3), as. hwõr*, wõr* (1), ahd. wõr* (1); Q.:

R, H, W, E, B; E.: germ. *wÐra-, *wÐraz, *wÚra-, *wÚraz, *wÐrja-, *wÐrjaz,

*wÚrja-, *wÚrjaz, Adj., zuverlässig, wahr, freundlich; idg. *øeræs-, Adj., freundlich,

vertrauenswert, wahr, Pokorny 1165; s. idg. *øer- (11), *øerý-, Sb., Freundlichkeit,

Pokorny 1165; W.: nfries. wier, Adj., wahr, wirklich; W.: saterl. wer, Adj., wahr,

wirklich; W.: nnordfries. wer, Adj., wahr, wirklich; L.: Hh 127b, Rh 1135b; R.: at

wÐr-a, afries., Adv.: nhd. fürwahr; ne. indeed, truly; L.: Hh 151b

wer-a (1) 1 und häufiger?, war-a (2), afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. Besitzer; ne. owner;

Hw.: s. *war-a (1); E.: s. germ. *warjan, sw. V., wehren, abhalten, schützen; idg.

*øer- (5), V., schließen, decken, schützen, retten, wehren, abwehren, Pokorny

1160; L.: Hh 127b

wer-a (2) 1, war-a (3), afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. Gewähr leisten, einstehen; ne. be

liable; Hw.: vgl. ahd. werÐn* (1); Q.: E, AA 102; E.: s. germ. *wera, Sb., Vertrag,

Bündnis; vgl. idg. *øer- (11), *øerý-, Sb., Freundlichkeit, Pokorny 1165; L.: Hh

127b, Rh 1136a, AA 102

wer-a (3) 16, war-a (4), afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. verteidigen, abwehren; ne. defend;

ÜG.: lat. dÐfendere AB (94, 6); Vw.: s. bi-, *of-; Hw.: s. wer-e-re; vgl. got.

warjan*, an. verja (4), ae. w’rian (1), as. werian* (2), ahd. werien* (1); Q.: E, R,

W, H, B, AB (94, 6), AA 102; E.: germ. *warjan, sw. V., wehren, abhalten,

schützen; idg. *øer- (5), V., schließen, decken, schützen, retten, wehren, abwehren,

Pokorny 1160; W.: nfries. werren, V., verteidigen, abwehren; L.: Hh 127b, Rh

1136b, AA 102

wÐr-a (1) 6, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. beweisen; ne. prove; Hw.: s. wÐr-ia; vgl. ahd.

wõren*; Q.: R, W, S; E.: germ. *wÐrjan, *wÚrjan, sw. V., beweisen; s. idg. *øer-

(11), *øerý-. Sb., Freundlichkeit, Pokorny 1165; L.: Hh 127b, Rh 1136b

wÐr-a (2), afries., Konj., Präp.: Vw.: s. wÐr-e

wer-th (1) 7, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Wert; ne. worth (N.); Vw.: s. -man-n, -mun-d;

Hw.: vgl. got. waírþ*, an. verOE, ae. weorþ (2), anfrk. werd, as. werth*, ahd. werd

(2); Q.: S, E, B, H, W; E.: germ. *werþa-, *werþam, *werþja-, *werþjam, st. N.

(a), Wert, Preis, Kaufsumme; s. idg. *øert-, V., drehen, wenden, Pokorny 1156;

vgl. idg. *øer- (3), V., drehen, biegen, Pokorny 1152; W.: nfries. wird; L.: Hh 128b,

Rh 1143a

wer-th (2) 8, afries., Adj.: nhd. wert, würdig, gültig; ne. worth (Adj.); Vw.: s.

ful-l-; Hw.: vgl. got. waírþs (1), an. verOEr (2), ae. weorþ (1), as. werth* (2), ahd.

werd* (1); Q.: R, E, W, AA 160; E.: germ. *werþa-, *werþaz, *werþja-, *werþjaz,

Adj., angemessen, wert, würdig; s. idg. *øert-, V., drehen, wenden, Pokorny 1156;

vgl. idg. *øer- (3), V., drehen, biegen, Pokorny 1152; L.: Hh 129a, Rh 1143a, AA

160

wer-th* (3) 1 und häufiger?, wer-d, wir-th, wir-d, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. »Wörth«,

Insel, Geländeerhebung im Feuchtgebiet; ne. island, hollock in a swampy area;

Hw.: vgl. as. *werith?, ahd. werid*; E.: s. germ. *wariþa-, *wariþam, st. N. (a),

Werder, Wörth, Insel; vgl. idg. *øer- (5), V., schließen, decken, schützen, retten,

wehren, abwehren, Pokorny 1160; L.: Hh 129a, Hh 182

*-wer-th (4), afries., Suff.: Vw.: s. *-war-d

wer-th-a (1) 84, afries., st. V. (3b): nhd. werden, zufallen (V.) (2); ne. become,

fall (V.) to; Vw.: s. for-, lâ-s-; Hw.: s. n-er-th-a; vgl. got. waírþan, an. verOEa (1),

ae. weorþan, anfrk. werthan, as. werthan*, ahd. werdan*; Q.: S, R, B, W, E, H;

E.: germ. *werþan, st. V., wenden, werden; idg. *øert-, V., drehen, wenden,

Pokorny 1156; s. idg. *øer- (3), V., drehen, biegen, Pokorny 1152; W.: nfries.

wirdden, V., werden; W.: nnordfries. warde, V., werden; R.: a-wei wer-th-a 1,

afries., V.: nhd. wegkommen; ne. come (V.) away; L.: Rh 616b; R.: lâ-s wer-th-a,

afries., V.: nhd. loswerden; ne. get rid of; L.: Hh 129a, Rh 1143a

wer-th-a (2), afries., sw. V. (1): Vw.: s. wir-th-a

Also including all *PIE words to do with wer, as in 'to turn' (which I think Knul was saying was again - ie; worth (2)

"to come to be," now chiefly, if not solely, in the archaic expression woe worth the day, present subjunctive of O.E. weorðan "to become, be, to befall," from P.Gmc. *werthan "to become" (cf. O.S., O.Du. werthan, O.N. verða, O.Fris. wertha, - my add on: wertha is in the OLB, not as wer.ha O.H.G. werdan, Ger. werden, Goth. wairþan "to become"), lit. "to turn into," from P.Gmc. *werthaz “toward, opposite,” perhaps a derivative of PIE *wert- "to turn, wind," from base *wer- "to turn, bend") wer as in man, warrior, war and every other assorted versions of wer and wêr. I've searched the original Tresoar OLB and the transliteration given by Ottema and compared it all to Sandbach, whose translation is very bad, now I see it clearer. Nothing convinces me this word is again, either wer or wer.ha.

That's not taking into account every spelling variation of those words and any others that relate to wer or werha, I DON'T see 'again' in any form.

I am not using other languages, to me, it should work in some form of Fryan/Frisian, not Dutch, not English, not anything else.

So, what do you think it is Abe?

You use Frisian (there is no "Fryan"), but not Dutch, not English, not anything else.

But normally you won't hesitate to use some Australian Aboriginal language to prove your point if necessary.

I, on the other hand, use old and closely related languages from the same area, so that would mean, aside of Old Frisian, Old/Middle Dutch, Old German, Old Saxon, Gothic, Old Norse and Old Swedish.

--

The OLB "wêrar" obviously means ""warriors" (think "war" or in French "guerre"). I could even say (in Dutch and singular) "weerder" or someone who (in Dutch) 'weers' or again in English, 'defends', ie: a defender. Or someone who (in Dutch) "weerstand geeft", or (in English) 'resists'. (In German, WWII lingo: "Wehrmacht", military forces)

In the sentence the two of you have been discussing I think "wêr" means 'again' or 'back', like Otharus said.

The Old Dutch equivalent would be "weder" (or 'wieder' in German) which became "weer" in modern Dutch.

.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

...and what happened to all the errors you thought Sandbach made?

Wilst wêr fry wêsa aend vnder mina rêd aend hoda lêva, tjaen ut then, wêpne skilun thi wrda, aend ik skil wâka o-er thi.

If you wish to be free again, and take my advice, and live under my care, come away. I will provide you with arms, and will watch over you.

The word wêr above is imo true/truly.

wêr/truly + fry/free + wêsa/become

ie; If you wish to become truly free...

I'm using Frisian words only, no Dutch.

----------------------------

PS Edit: I found this online book called An Introduction to Old Frisian, you all might have seen it, I hadn't.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uWYsSOp6g58C&pg=PA217&lpg=PA217&dq=w%C3%A9ra+frisian&source=bl&ots=wYcuFew22R&sig=XNFti2lgu9yk5J12lCKuzuCeigU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=pBAUT8CfO66kiAfBlt1D&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

You could use Dutch for translating "wêr", and the word would be "waar" (or better: "waarlijk").

The point is to look at the context the word is used in: were they NOT free, and could they be free AGAIN?

Or were they not truelly free in the right sense of the word, and could they be really truelly free if this and that?

+++

EDIT:

"It is true" would be "Het is waar" in modern Dutch.

.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Page 48 OLB text - you can see this sentence:

To jenst-vr tha Dênamarka aend that Juttarlând hêdon wi folkplantinga mith en burchfâm, dâna wonon wi kâper aend yser, bijvnka târ, paek aend svma ôr bihof.

Opposite Denmark and Jutland we had colonies and a Burgtmaagd. Thence we obtained copper and iron, as well as tar and pitch, and some other necessaries.

Or here it is again:

To jenst vr vs formêlich Westland thêr hêdon wi Brittanja mith sina tinlâna.

Opposite to us we had Britain, formerly Westland, with her tin mines.

'jenst-vr' in this sentence means opposite. That is the word Dutch weer will take you to, because it means again as weer, but the true meaning is against, opposite, toward. It is found in the English word 'with'. (wither as Knul said).

with

O.E. wið "against, opposite, toward," a shortened form related to wiðer, from P.Gmc. *withro- "against" (cf. O.S. withar "against," O.N. viðr "against, with, toward, at," M.Du., Du. weder, Du. weer "again," Goth. wiþra "against, opposite"), from PIE *wi-tero-, lit. "more apart," from base *wi- "separation" (cf. Skt. vi, Avestan vi- "asunder," Skt. vitaram "further, farther," O.C.S. vutoru "other, second"). In M.E., sense shifted to denote association, combination, and union, partly by influence of O.N. vidh, and also perhaps by L. cum "with" (as in pugnare cum "fight with"). In this sense, it replaced O.E. mid "with," which survives only as a prefix (e.g. midwife). Original sense of "against, in opposition" is retained in compounds such as withhold, withdraw, withstand. Often treated as a conjunction by ungrammatical writers and used where and would be correct. First record of with child "pregnant" is recorded from c.1200. With it "cool" is black slang, recorded by 1931.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Weder

That is Dutch WEER in the form of -vr in the OLB.

This is not wêr imo.

jenst is obviously gainst like the word becomes 'against'.

PS: The vr is looking like it went to 'over' to me, but I'll work on that one later. I have to go shopping now.

over

O.E. ofer, from P.Gmc. *uberi (cf. O.S. obar, O.Fris. over, O.N. yfir, O.H.G. ubar, Ger. über, Goth. ufar "over, above"),

Edited January 17, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

You use Frisian (there is no "Fryan"), but not Dutch, not English, not anything else.

But normally you won't hesitate to use some Australian Aboriginal language to prove your point if necessary.

I, on the other hand, use old and closely related languages from the same area, so that would mean, aside of Old Frisian, Old/Middle Dutch, Old German, Old Saxon, Gothic, Old Norse and Old Swedish.

.

No, I have not used anything out of a compatible language in this thread, unless it was very early. I do not now think the word is sven, I agree it is son. I've started my translation.

Mine will be straight from the OLB text, not through Dutch or Sandbach's English translation and in the context of the whole OLB, most of the language will be available to find in Frisian. It might take me some time but I am convinced the language is what it says, pure Fries. By including words that are only in Dutch, the meaning 'again' for weer, say, it goes against the whole message of the OLB.

[Otharus]

By including words that are only in Dutch, the meaning 'again' for weer, say, it goes against the whole message of the OLB.

LOL!

Dutch is nothing but another variety of 'Newfrisian'.

Untill 1100 AD Holland was called Friesland.

[Abramelin]

LOL!

Dutch is nothing but another variety of 'Newfrisian'.

Untill 1100 AD Holland was called Friesland.

Jeesh, I have used my knowledge of Old/Middle Dutch to translate whole sentences from the OLB.

How could I if these languages were not related somehow?

[Abramelin]

Page 48 OLB text - you can see this sentence:

To jenst-vr tha Dênamarka aend that Juttarlând hêdon wi folkplantinga mith en burchfâm, dâna wonon wi kâper aend yser, bijvnka târ, paek aend svma ôr bihof.

Opposite Denmark and Jutland we had colonies and a Burgtmaagd. Thence we obtained copper and iron, as well as tar and pitch, and some other necessaries.

Or here it is again:

To jenst vr vs formêlich Westland thêr hêdon wi Brittanja mith sina tinlâna.

Opposite to us we had Britain, formerly Westland, with her tin mines.

'jenst-vr' in this sentence means opposite. That is the word Dutch weer will take you to, because it means again as weer, but the true meaning is against, opposite, toward. It is found in the English word 'with'. (wither as Knul said).

Where do you see the word "weer" in that sentence?

I don't see it at all.

The -vr ending of that word, "jenst-vr", is nothing but -over, like in Dutch "tegenover", or 'opposite' in English.

"Tegenover" >> "tegen" (against)+ "over" (over), which together means 'opposite'.

against, a-jen* 4, jen 17, ov-er 22, t-ien 1 und häufiger?, t-ien-st 1 und häufiger?,

to-b-up-p-a 6, to-jen-is 34, thÁ-r-a-jen* 1, thÁ-r-b-up-p-a 5, thÁ-r-to-jÐn-is 2, wi-th

47, wi-ther 31

From the Old Frisian Dictionary:

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/ne-afries.pdf

"jen" or "tienst" = against/"tegen", PLUS "vr" = over >> jenst-vr = tegen-over => "opposite".

.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Where do you see the word "weer" in that sentence?

I don't see it at all.

The -vr ending of that word, "jenst-vr", is nothing but -over, like in Dutch "tegenover", or 'opposite' in English.

"Tegenover" >> "tegen" (against)+ "over" (over), which together means 'opposite'.

against, a-jen* 4, jen 17, ov-er 22, t-ien 1 und häufiger?, t-ien-st 1 und häufiger?,

to-b-up-p-a 6, to-jen-is 34, thÁ-r-a-jen* 1, thÁ-r-b-up-p-a 5, thÁ-r-to-jÐn-is 2, wi-th

47, wi-ther 31

From the Old Frisian Dictionary:

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/ne-afries.pdf

"jen" or "tienst" = against/"tegen", PLUS "vr" = over >> jenst-vr = tegen-over => "opposite".

.

That's all fine but here is 'again' in the OLB and the word is 'wither' in the original text as well.

When Wodin was crowned, he attacked the savages, who were all horsemen, and fell upon Wodins troops like a hailstorm; but like a whirlwind they were turned back, and did not dare to appear again.

Thâ Wodin kroned was, gvng er vppa wilda lôs; thi wêron al rutar, lik een hêjel buje kêmon hja ajn Wodin-is hêr, men lik en twyrne wind wendon hja omme aend ne thvradon nâ wither forskina.

In the Frisian Dictionary it has wither as against but with as again, so to me, this sentence is clearly: again = wither/with

wi-ther 31, wi-the (2), we-ther, we-der (1), afries., Präp.: nhd. wider, gegen; ne.

against; ÜG.: lat. contrõ K 8, K 10, KE, L 2, AB (93, 3), iterum L 3, pro K 2;

Vw.: s. -ber-a, -bÐt-a, -bri-ng-a, -dê-l-a, -drÆ-v-a, -duõ, -ê-th, -fal-l, -fal-l-a, -far-a,

-gad-er-ia, -hræ-p-a, -hræ-p-inge, -jeld, -jev-a, -kê-r-a, -kla-g-e, *-krÆ-g-a, -krÆ-g-inge,

-ku-m-a, -lag-a, -lâ-n, -mak-ia, -mak-inge, -mæ-d, -nim-a, -re-i-s-e, -rê-k-a, -rê-kinge*,

-riuch-t, *-sedz-a, -sedz-en*, -sedz-inge, -sek-a, *-set-t-a, -set-t-inge, *-s-prek-

a, -s-prÐ-k-e, -s-pre-k-nisse, -ste-k-e, -strÆ-d, -strÆ-d-a, -strÆ-d-ich, -um, -war-ia,

-wed-d-ia, *-we-nd-a, -we-nd-inge, -we-s-a, -wor-d; Hw.: s. wi-th; vgl. got. withra,

ae. wiþer, anfrk. wither, as. withar*, ahd. widar (2); Q.: R, E, B, H, S, W, K 2, K

8, K 10, KE, L 2, L 3, AB (93, 3); E.: germ. *wiþra, Adv., Präp., wider, gegen,

wieder; idg. *øitero-, Adv., Präp., weiter, wider, wieder, Pokorny 1176; s. idg. *øÂ-

(1), Adv., Num. Kard., auseinander, entzwei, zwei, Pokorny 1175; L.: Hh 131b, Hh

183, Rh 1154

wi-th 47, wi-th-e (1), afries., Präp.: nhd. wider, gegen, wiederum, zu, gemäß,

gegenüber, im Verkehr mit, bei Teilung mit, im Tausch gegen, zum Ersatz für; ne.

against, again, according to, by sharing, in exchange; ÜG.: lat. cæram L 2, L 2e;

Vw.: s. hÆ-r-, -sedz-a, -send-a, -sit-t-a, -s-pre-k-a, -stõ-n, -sta-n-d-a, -wer-p-a; Hw.: s.

wi-ther; vgl. an. wiOEr (2), ae. wiþ (1), as. with* (2); Q.: R, E, B, H, S, W, L 2, L

24; E.: germ. *wiþra, Adv., Präp., wider, gegen, wieder; idg. *øitero-, Adv., Präp.,

weiter, wider, wieder, Pokorny 1176; s. idg. *øÂ- (1), Adv., Num. Kard.,

auseinander, entzwei, zwei, Pokorny 1175; W.: nfries. weer, Präp, wider, gegen;

W.: saterl. wer, Präp., wider, gegen; L.: Hh 131b, Rh 1154a

I did notice Saterland wer though.

So, if the word 'wither' is really being used for the word 'again', when it really does mean 'again' in Frisian - why have all other variations of again, such as wêr? Maybe the translation isn't really 'again'. Sandbach has 'would not prevent it'- which seems to be interpreted as 'would not be against it or as Otharus thinks, (I think) again-have (wer.ha), however, I do not see why any word other than wither would be used for the word again, when it shows up as that in the sentence I gave above.

Edited January 17, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Jeesh, I have used my knowledge of Old/Middle Dutch to translate whole sentences from the OLB.

How could I if these languages were not related somehow?

I don't think they are not related, I think Dutch in any form, is too late to be used as a base for words in the OLB. So is English.

[Otharus]

I don't think they are not related, I think Dutch in any form, is too late to be used as a base for words in the OLB. So is English.

I agree that Dutch and English have not been used as a base for OLB-words, but both languages carry traces of the OLB-language (with its many spelling varieties).

The same can be said for Frisian, German, the Scandinavian languages and even (less obviously) the south-European languages.

[Otharus]

It is an interesting observation that "again" and "against" are related to "wér", "weer", "with", "wither", "wether", "weder, "wieder" etc., but in the four fragments I gave , "WÉR" means "back" or "again".

Here they are for the last time.

[067/22]

WILST WÉR FRY WÉSA ÀND VNDER MINA RÉD ÀND HODA LÉVA. TJÀN UT THEN. WÉPNE SKILUN THI WRDA. ÀND IK SKIL WÁKA O.ER THI.

Do you want to be free again... (etc.)

[079/18]

THJU MODER NILDET NAVT WÉR.HA

The Mother didn't want to have it back

[079/19]

IK SJA NÉN FRÉSE AN SINA WÉPNE MEN WEL VMBE THA SKÉNLANDER WÉR TO NIMMANDE THRVCH DAM HJA BASTERED ÀND VRDÉREN SIND

I see no fear in his weapons, but in taking the Skénlander back, because they are bastardised and wasted.

[153/09]

THÉRVMBE NIL HI NÉNE MODER WÉR HÁ

Therefore he doesn't want to have a mother back

Edited January 17, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

I don't think they are not related, I think Dutch in any form, is too late to be used as a base for words in the OLB. So is English.

The dictionary you say you use is the Old Frisian dictionary, and that dictionary is based on Frisian law texts from the 12/13th century and onwards.

And that time period is where Middle and Old Dutch come from.

Now, with too late you mean too young to be used for the OLB because the OLB uses a 4000 years old language.

You have any dictionaries of a (northern) European language that old?

.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

In my book I also came to the conclusion that "Phrygia" was most likely a derivative of "Frya" but I did not know about the Bruges and this Egyptian king.

Earlier in the OLB/Tsunami thread, it was suggested that the PHRYGIANS may have been the FRYAS of the OLB.

In this context, it's noteworthy that Lucius Apuleius (Metamorphoses, ca. 180 AD) calls them "PRIMIGENII",

translated as "first-born of mankind" by E.J. Kenney (1998).

PRIMIGENII PHRYGES PESSINVNTIAM DEVM MATREM

The Phrygians, first-born of mankind, call me the Pessinuntian Mother of the gods

It is significant that the term "frieze" (in architecture/ art) - in Dutch: "fries" - is accepted to be derived from "opus phrygium" (Phrygian work).

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/frieze

frieze

Pronunciation: /friːz/

noun

a broad horizontal band of sculpted or painted decoration, especially on a wall near the ceiling:

the horsemen of the Parthenon frieze

figurative

the coastline is a frieze of cliffs

- a horizontal paper strip mounted on a wall to give an effect similar to that of a sculpted or painted frieze:

a wallpaper frieze with chickens on it

- Architecture the part of an entablature between the architrave and the cornice.

Origin:

mid 16th century: from French frise, from medieval Latin frisium, variant of frigium, from Latin Phrygium (opus) '(work) of Phrygia'

[Otharus]

Now, with too late you mean too young to be used for the OLB because the OLB uses a 4000 years old language.

If OLB is what it says it is, it's a 13th century copy of a 9th century copy of older original(s).

The first version would have been compiled in the 6th century BC.

That is ca. 2600 BP.

It is possible that the language had not changed much between 4200 BP and 2600 BP (as the Fryans liked to believe), but we can only guess if that is true.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

If OLB is what it says it is, it's a 13th century copy of a 9th century copy of older original(s).

The first version would have been compiled in the 6th century BC.

That is ca. 2600 BP.

It is possible that the language had not changed much between 4200 BP and 2600 BP (as the Fryans liked to believe), but we can only guess if that is true.

OK, yes, 2600 years old at minimum.

But Puzzler says she only uses Old Frisian to translate, and that is from dictionaries that are compiled based on words used in the 12/13th century AD.

[Abramelin]

It is significant that the term "frieze" (in architecture/ art) - in Dutch: "fries" - is accepted to be derived from "opus phrygium" (Phrygian work).

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/frieze

frieze

Pronunciation: /friːz/

noun

a broad horizontal band of sculpted or painted decoration, especially on a wall near the ceiling:

the horsemen of the Parthenon frieze

figurative

the coastline is a frieze of cliffs

- a horizontal paper strip mounted on a wall to give an effect similar to that of a sculpted or painted frieze:

a wallpaper frieze with chickens on it

- Architecture the part of an entablature between the architrave and the cornice.

Origin:

mid 16th century: from French frise, from medieval Latin frisium, variant of frigium, from Latin Phrygium (opus) '(work) of Phrygia'

You could also have added this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frigg

But if Phrygian is (related to) Frisian, then try to translate these texts:

ates : arkiaevais : akenanogavos : midai : lavagtaei : vanaktei : edaes

baba : memevais : proitavos : kFiyanaveyos : sikeneman : edaes

mate.r.[--] (...) atatasm.?onokaua

..and so on.

http://titus.fkidg1.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/phrygian/phryg.htm

More here:

http://www.maravot.com/Phrygian.html

--

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia

[Otharus]

But Puzzler says she only uses Old Frisian to translate, and that is from dictionaries that are compiled based on words used in the 12/13th century AD.

I agree that Oldfrisian dictionaries (although helpful) are not enough to translate the OLB.

Knowledge of at least the Dutch language - and preferably some other European languages - is essential.

[Otharus]

But if Phrygian is (related to) Frisian, then try to translate these texts:

[...]

Those fragments from the region of Turkey (considered to be Phrygian) are not in the same language as the OLB.

Unfortunately it's not that simple...

I don't know.