The Puzzler Posted January 19, 2012 #9526 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) In saying that, I was thinking more about lame, as the etymology given by you Abe did mention, first used concerning ships. Which could be a boat harbour or marina or somewhere the boats stopped, a port, a dock maybe. lam-m-a* 11, lem-m-a*, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. lähmen; ne. paralyse; Hw.: s. lamed; vgl. an. lemja, ae. l’mman, as. *lemmian?, ahd. lemmen*; Q.: R, H, E, B; E.: germ. *lamjan, sw. V., brechen, lähmen, lahm machen; s. idg. *lem- (1), V., Adj., zerbrechen, zerbrochen, weich, Pokorny 674; L.: Hh 62a, Hh 186, Rh 891a lame make/maken This also had me thinking about Hephaestus, who was LAME. A metalworker... EDIT:I think it might actually be this, dockyard, Lemmer seems to be an area that has a shipyard. Edited January 19, 2012 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 19, 2012 #9527 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I wonder what Goffe Jensma had to say about Lumka-makia. I guess he didn't say much about it, heh... Not much indeed. Jensma (2006), p.177 in footnote: "Luimpjemakum - colderic fantasy name, that might refer to Emden, Dokkum or Leeuwarden, that all three were situated at the mouth of an 'Ee', an 'Emude'" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 19, 2012 #9528 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) "Het is alleszins de moeite waard van het OLB, als van een echte geschiedbron, kennis te nemen, indien men zich voor de oude vaderlandse geschiedenis interesseert. Het is bovendien de moeite waard, de methodes, waarmee het HS in de loop van ruim 100 jaar werd verguisd en het publiek gedesinformeerd, aan een nader onderzoek te onderwerpen, indien men zich voor zuivere denk-en discussiemethodes interesseert. Tenslotte is het altijd de moeite waard, de reputatie van achtenswaardige lieden, die ten onrechte voor falsificateur of mystificateur gehouden zijn, te repareren, indien men de normen van het maatschappelijk verkeer wil hooghouden." - - - - - - (inprovised translation) "It is by all means worth the effort, to learn from the OLB, as if it were a real historical source, if one is interested in old history. Above that it is worth the effort, to research the methods used in over a 100 years, to revile the manuscript and disinform the public, if one is interested in pure methods of thinking and discussing. Ultimately it is always worth the effort, to repair the reputation of respectable people, that have been falsely accused of being forgers and lyars, if one wants to uphold a society of high ethical values." - - - - - - 's-Gravenhage, 5 September 1989. Mr. N. Luitse Conclusion of OLB-Lecture for a society in The Hague. - - - - - - Alewyn or anyone else, can you make a better translation? You translated the last part as follows: Ultimately it is always worth the effort, to repair the reputation of respectable people, that have been falsely accused of being forgers and lyars, if one wants to uphold a society of high ethical values. Maybe this is somewhat better if you want to stay as close as possible to the original meaning of the Dutch text: Ultimately it is always worth the effort, to repair the reputation of respectable people, that have been wrongly accused of being falsifiers and mystificators, if one wants to uphold the standards of social interaction. (But I think 'forger' instead of 'falsifier' is ok, at least it is a more common word.) . Edited January 19, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 19, 2012 #9529 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Not much indeed. Jensma (2006), p.177 in footnote: "Luimpjemakum - colderic fantasy name, that might refer to Emden, Dokkum or Leeuwarden, that all three were situated at the mouth of an 'Ee', an 'Emude'" Yeah, that much I expected: the easy way out. Long ago I already thought it might be a nickname for some city, like "Rotjeknor" for "Rotterdam", but that nickname contains part of the real name. But I could make this of it: "Rotia-kenora" and I will have people in some distant future turn nuts finding out what city it might have been, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 19, 2012 #9530 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) How sardonic is this? Before he translated and published the OLB, Dr. J.G. Ottema was secretary of the Frisian Society for History, Archaeology and Linguistics (Friesch Genootschap van Geschied-, Oudheid- en Taalkunde). As the editor of an 1852 publication from this society, 'Die Olde Freesche Cronike - Gesta Frisiorum - M. Alvini Tractatus', he stated that 'Gesta Fresonum' and 'Thet Freske Riim' had to be derived from 'Die olde Freesche Cronike' and 'Tractatus Alvini' respectively. Furthermore, he suggested that both 'Gesta Fresonum' and 'Thet Freske Riim' were "nothing but linguistic exercises and own fabrication by Simon Abes Gabbema, that he had handed over to his friend [Franciscus] Junius, as if they were most important memorials of antiquity." Original quote: "... niet anders zijn, dan proeven van taalstudie en eigen fabrikaat van Simon Abes Gabbema, die hij zijnen vriend [Franciscus] Junius voor hoogst belangrijke gedenkstukken der oudheid in handen gestopt heeft." Source (p.203): http://books.google.nl/books?id=Ots_AAAAYAAJ&dq=%22freske%20riim%22%20alvinus&hl=nl&pg=PA189#v=onepage&q=%22freske%20riim%22%20alvinus&f=false Edited January 19, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 19, 2012 #9531 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Maybe this is somewhat better if you want to stay as close as possible to the original meaning of the Dutch text: Ultimately it is always worth the effort, to repair the reputation of respectable people, that have been wrongly accused of being falsifiers and mystificators, if one wants to uphold the standards of social interaction. (But I think 'forger' instead of 'falsifier' is ok, at least it is a more common word.) Yes, that's better. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 19, 2012 #9532 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Yes, that's better. Thanks. Lol, actually I made a grammatical error: Ultimately it is always worth the effort, to repair the reputation of respectable people, that WHO have been wrongly accused of being falsifiers and mystificators, if one wants to uphold the standards of social interaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 19, 2012 #9533 Share Posted January 19, 2012 How sardonic is this? Before he translated and published the OLB, Dr. J.G. Ottema was secretary of the Frisian Society for History, Archaeology and Linguistics (Friesch Genootschap van Geschied-, Oudheid- en Taalkunde). As the editor of an 1852 publication from this society, 'Die Olde Freesche Cronike - Gesta Frisiorum - M. Alvini Tractatus', he stated that 'Gesta Fresonum' and 'Thet Freske Riim' had to be derived from 'Die olde Freesche Cronike' and 'Tractatus Alvini' respectively. Furthermore, he suggested that both 'Gesta Fresonum' and 'Thet Freske Riim' were "nothing but linguistic exercises and own fabrication by Simon Abes Gabbema, that he had handed over to his friend [Franciscus] Junius, as if they were most important memorials of antiquity." Original quote: "... niet anders zijn, dan proeven van taalstudie en eigen fabrikaat van Simon Abes Gabbema, die hij zijnen vriend [Franciscus] Junius voor hoogst belangrijke gedenkstukken der oudheid in handen gestopt heeft." Source (p.203): http://books.google.nl/books?id=Ots_AAAAYAAJ&dq=%22freske%20riim%22%20alvinus&hl=nl&pg=PA189#v=onepage&q=%22freske%20riim%22%20alvinus&f=false Lol, so our mr. Halbertsma maybe really did have a reason to get 'even' with Ottema? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 19, 2012 #9534 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Lol, so our mr. Halbertsma maybe really did have a reason to get 'even' with Ottema? Both the Halbertsma and the Haverschmidt hoax-theory only work if one assumes that Cornelis Over de Linden was a most evil liar. It is a mystery to me how Jensma, who has read COL's letters and diaries, could come to this inconceivable conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 19, 2012 #9535 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Both the Halbertsma and the Haverschmidt hoax-theory only work if one assumes that Cornelis Over de Linden was a most evil liar. It is a mystery to me how Jensma, who has read COL's letters and diaries, could come to this inconceivable conclusion. "Most evil liars" are capable of pretending to be anything but that. Sweet, very polite and 'innocent' looking letters is something they can draw from their magic hat. . Edited January 19, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 19, 2012 #9536 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) About "Lumka-makia" possibly being a nickname for a city... Title: Nederlandsche Volkskunde Author: Jos Schrijnen Release Date: October 12, 2007 [EBook #22968] Language: Dutch 6. De spotnamen (= The nicknames) http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22968/22968-h/22968-h.htm#d0e14031'>http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22968/22968-h/22968-h.htm#d0e14031 http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22968/22968-h/22968-h.htm Scroll down till you see a list of cities with nicknames for their inhabitants. I remember a nickname for the people living in the town of Loosduinen, now part of the city of The Hague: "Peenbuikers". It probably came into existence because the people of Loosduinen earned their living with cultivating carrots, or "peen" ( "buik" = belly). Now imagine I want to 'mystify', and then I get something like, "Penna-bukar" or "Penna-bukia. Sounds awesome, right? . Edited January 19, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 19, 2012 #9537 Share Posted January 19, 2012 "Most evil liars" are capable of pretending to be anything but that. Sweet, very polite and 'innocent' looking letters is something they can draw from their magic hat. He had no motive. It doesn't make sense. You should read those letters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted January 19, 2012 #9538 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) How sardonic is this? Before he translated and published the OLB, Dr. J.G. Ottema was secretary of the Frisian Society for History, Archaeology and Linguistics (Friesch Genootschap van Geschied-, Oudheid- en Taalkunde). As the editor of an 1852 publication from this society, 'Die Olde Freesche Cronike - Gesta Frisiorum - M. Alvini Tractatus', he stated that 'Gesta Fresonum' and 'Thet Freske Riim' had to be derived from 'Die olde Freesche Cronike' and 'Tractatus Alvini' respectively. Furthermore, he suggested that both 'Gesta Fresonum' and 'Thet Freske Riim' were "nothing but linguistic exercises and own fabrication by Simon Abes Gabbema, that he had handed over to his friend [Franciscus] Junius, as if they were most important memorials of antiquity." Original quote: "... niet anders zijn, dan proeven van taalstudie en eigen fabrikaat van Simon Abes Gabbema, die hij zijnen vriend [Franciscus] Junius voor hoogst belangrijke gedenkstukken der oudheid in handen gestopt heeft." Source (p.203): http://books.google....alvinus&f=false You never answered the question, why Cornelis over de Linden showed the OLB only after all the witnesses of the forgery died, last but no least his compagnon Stadermann. Edited January 19, 2012 by Knul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 19, 2012 #9539 Share Posted January 19, 2012 "ALVINUS (Magister) was head of the Latin school in Sneek ca. 1400, and secretary of town respectively. He was a learned man, knew of Roman law and church history. He wrote about the history of the Frisians of the first times till about 800; the original Latin Tractatus is lost. Of that we only have two translations, a Frisian, Thet Freske Riim, that is only partly saved, and a Hollandic, partly poetic, partly prose, that is known as Magistri Alvini Tractatus." Original in Dutch: "ALVINUS (Magister) was omstreeks 1400 rector der latijnsche school te Sneek en vervolgens secretaris van die stad. Hij was een geleerd man, ervaren in romeinsch recht en kerkgeschiedenis. Hij heeft de geschiedenis der Friezen beschreven van den eersten tijd af tot ongeveer 800; de oorspronkelijke latijnsche Tractatus is verloren. Daarvan bezitten wij twee vertalingen, een friesche, Thet Freske riim, dat slechts gedeeltelijk bewaard is, en een hollandsche, deels in verzen, deels in proza, die als Magistri Alvini tractatus bekend staat." Source: Nieuw Nederlandsch biografisch woordenboek. Deel 6 redactie P.C. Molhuysen en P.J. Blok (dnbl 2008) http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/molh003nieu06_01/molh003nieu06_01.pdf ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ [First some translated parts, then the original text in Dutch.] Notes by E. Epkema to "Thet Freske Riim" (page 56-57) "(...) ALVINUS (...) would have changed Frisian poetry into 'Netherdutch' poetry (...) This Freske Riim cannot be the work of from ALVINUS, because then it would have to be Belgian, that is 'Netherdutch', poetry; which they are not, they are Old-Frisian or rather Frisian, written in the common language of the time. (...)" Original text in Dutch "E. EPKEMA OP THET FRESKE RIIM ~ Vs.1. Ik sculde sega. Wie is die ik? Is het Alvinus? Of een ander, die van zijn werk een uittreksel heeft gemaakt? SUFFRIDUS PETRI, de Scriptor. Fris., pag.67, seqq., geeft het, zoo het schijnt, op voor werk van ALVINUS zelven. "M. ALVINUS," zegt hij, "eenigen tijd lang Rector der latijnsche school te Sneek, vervolgens Secretaris dier stad, schreef een tractaat of kort begrip der Friesche geschiedenis, van de wieg en bakermat van dat volk tot op KAREL den grooten." Vervolgens zegt hij, pag.69, dat ALVINUS, volgens deszelfs eigene opgave, Friesche verzen of rijmen in Nederduitsche verzen zoude hebben overgegoten; - dat hij in deze rijmen zeer geloofwaardige Schrijvers zoude hebben gevolgd, als MOZES, JOSEPHUS, MEGASTHENES, en PATROCLES; - dat de exemplaren van dit gedicht, waarvan hij onderscheidene gezien had, in eenige weinige dingen verschilden; - pag.72, dat het exemplaar, hem bezorgd door HUBERTUS SCHOTUS, iets nauwkeuriger was, dan dat, wat in het HS. van het klooster te Thabor voorhanden was, enz. ~ Uit dit verhaal van SUFFRIDUS zou men, mijns bedunkens, moeten opmaken, vooreerst, dat dit Freske Riim het geschrift van ALVINUS niet kan zijn; want het zouden, volgens hem, Belgische, dat is Nederduitsche, rijmen moeten zijn; en dat zijn ze niet, maar Oud-Friesche, of liever Friesche, in de toenmalige landtaal geschreven. Ten tweede blijkt het allerduidelijkst, uit vergelijking van ons stuk met de opgave van SUFFRIDUS, dat het onze veel minder bevat, dan dat van ALVINUS zou bevatten, alsmede, dat het in andere opzigten er van verschilt." Statement: Alvinus = Alcuinus I suspect that the author of the original text that was the source for "Thet Freske Riim" and "Tractatus Alvini" was not Magister Alvinus who was rector of the Latin School in Sneek ca. 1400 (as Suffridus Petri believed), but Alcuin of York (Latin: Alcuinus) or Ealhwine (ca.735-804). Latin poem by Alcuinus (with Dutch translation by Kees Smit) CARTULA PERGE CITO PELAGI TRANS EQORA CORSU Briefje, zet snel koers over de grote zee, OSTIA PISCOSI FLARIS PETE FORTIA RHENI Zeil voor de wind naar de monding van de visrijke Rijn, INGREDIENS RAPIDIS PONTUM QUA VOLVITUR UNDIS Vaar door de branding en de kolkende golven. TUM TUA PRELONGO DUCATUR PRORA REMULCO De voorsteven moet aan een lang touw meegesleept worden, NE CITO RETRORSUM RAPIATUR FLUMINE PUPPIS anders grijpt de tegenstroom de achtersteven. SI MEUS ALBRICUS VENIENS OCCURAT IN AMNE Als mijn vriend Alberik je tegemoet komt op de kade VACCI POTENS PRAESUL PROPERANS TU DICITO SALVE De bisschop van het weidegebied, zeg dan gauw 'Gegroet', NAM TIBI HADDA PRIOR NOCTE NON AMPLIUS UNA Want zijn prior Haddo zal jou niet meer dan één avond IN TRAIECT MEL COMPULTIMQUE BUTURQUE MINISTRAT in Trecht een bord pap voorzetten met honing en boter, UT PUTE NON OLEUM NEC VINUM FRESIA FUNDIT Tja, Friezenland produceert geen olijfolie of wijn. HINC TUA VELA LEVA FUGIENS DORSTADA RELINQUE Hijs nu het zeil en laat Dorestad links liggen. NON TIBI FORTE NIGER HROTBERCT PARAT HOSPITA TECTA Ik denk niet dat die norse Robrecht je onderdak verleent, NON AMAT ECCE TUUM CARMEN MERCATOR AVARUS Want weet je, die gierige koopman is niet op jouw lied gesteld. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcuin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 19, 2012 #9540 Share Posted January 19, 2012 You never answered the question, why Cornelis over de Linden showed the OLB only after all the witnesses of the forgery died, last but no least his compagnon Stadermann. I did too, more than once. There were no witnesses to the forgery, because there was no forgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 19, 2012 #9541 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) HIR BIJINT THAT FRYSKE RYM IK SKOLDE SEGZA JEF IK KVDE HO DI FRYDOM ÉROST BIGVDE THA THJV WRALD ÉROST DEDE FORGAN AND THJV OTHER DEDE INGAN ALDVS BISKRIVET ALWYN THI MASTER IN THA BOKA SYN THA THI FLODE DEDE OPGAN AND DEDET ALLE FORSLAN THER THJV WRALD HEDE BIFAN BÉDE WIF AND MAN ... andsofort Edited January 19, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 19, 2012 #9542 Share Posted January 19, 2012 (edited) Must be me, but what does that poem by Alcuin prove or disprove, or what? Little letter, set course to the wide ocean, Sail before the wind to the mouth of the Rhine with its bounty of fish, Sail through the surf and the swirling waves. The prow must be dragged along a long rope, or else the counter current will get the stern. When my friend Alberik meets you on the quay, The bisshop of the meadows, then say "Bye!" as soon as possible, ....and so on... . Edited January 19, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 19, 2012 #9543 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Must be me, but what does that poem by Alcuin prove or disprove, or what? Little letter, set course to the wide ocean, Sail before the wind to the mouth of the Rhine with its bounty of fish, Sail through the surf and the swirling waves. The prow must be dragged along a long rope, or else the counter current will get the stern. When my friend Alberik meets you on the quay, The bisshop of the meadows, then say "Bye!" as soon as possible, ....and so on... It proves nothing, but is a tiny source about 'Friesland' in the time of LIKO, that had not been mentioned yet. My statement that the Freske Riim and Tractatus Alvini will have been based on work from Alcuin is more significant, but I'm too lazy to explain this at the moment. I just wanted to have said it before anyone else does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 20, 2012 #9544 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Latin poem by Alcuinus (with Dutch translation by Kees Smit) CARTULA PERGE CITO PELAGI TRANS EQORA CORSU Briefje, zet snel koers over de grote zee, OSTIA PISCOSI FLARIS PETE FORTIA RHENI Zeil voor de wind naar de monding van de visrijke Rijn, INGREDIENS RAPIDIS PONTUM QUA VOLVITUR UNDIS Vaar door de branding en de kolkende golven. TUM TUA PRELONGO DUCATUR PRORA REMULCO De voorsteven moet aan een lang touw meegesleept worden, NE CITO RETRORSUM RAPIATUR FLUMINE PUPPIS anders grijpt de tegenstroom de achtersteven. SI MEUS ALBRICUS VENIENS OCCURAT IN AMNE Als mijn vriend Alberik je tegemoet komt op de kade VACCI POTENS PRAESUL PROPERANS TU DICITO SALVE De bisschop van het weidegebied, zeg dan gauw 'Gegroet', NAM TIBI HADDA PRIOR NOCTE NON AMPLIUS UNA Want zijn prior Haddo zal jou niet meer dan één avond IN TRAIECT MEL COMPULTIMQUE BUTURQUE MINISTRAT in Trecht een bord pap voorzetten met honing en boter, UT PUTE NON OLEUM NEC VINUM FRESIA FUNDIT Tja, Friezenland produceert geen olijfolie of wijn. HINC TUA VELA LEVA FUGIENS DORSTADA RELINQUE Hijs nu het zeil en laat Dorestad links liggen. NON TIBI FORTE NIGER HROTBERCT PARAT HOSPITA TECTA Ik denk niet dat die norse Robrecht je onderdak verleent, NON AMAT ECCE TUUM CARMEN MERCATOR AVARUS Want weet je, die gierige koopman is niet op jouw lied gesteld. I changed and finished Abe's English translation: Little letter, set course to the wide ocean. Sail with the wind to the mouth of the fishrich Rhine. Sail through the surf and the swirling waves. The prow must be dragged along a long rope, or else the counter current will get the stern. When my friend Albrikus meets you on the quay, The bisshop of the meadows, then quickly say "Bye!", as his prior Haddo will not feed you more than one night porridge with honey and butter in Traiect. Alas, Fresia does not produce olive oil or whine. Set sail and ignore Dorstada. I don't think grim Rotbercht will invite you, as, you see, that stingy merchant will not like your song. What it proves is there was a route from: Mouth of RHENI => FRESIA; TRAIECT (bishop Alberik, prior Haddo) => DORSTADA (merchant Robrecht) ... and that people ate porridge with honey and butter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted January 20, 2012 #9545 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I did too, more than once. There were no witnesses to the forgery, because there was no forgery. According to you there was no forgery, despite all the evidence that was brought up. However, your defense is very weak and consist only of two words: might be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 20, 2012 #9546 Share Posted January 20, 2012 According to you there was no forgery, despite all the evidence that was brought up. However, your defense is very weak and consist only of two words: might be. I think your 'evidence' that OLB has to be a hoax is very weak too. You leave no space in your mind for the possibility that OLB is authentic. I leave all possibilities open, but until now, my judgement is that it is far more likely that OLB is authentic, than that it is a forgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 20, 2012 #9547 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I think a 16th century Spanish word for a 'lizard/lagarto of the Indies', "alligator", showing up in the OLB as a type of crocodile in the Punjab (IndiA) should alone give you some serious doubts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 20, 2012 #9548 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I think a 16th century Spanish word for a 'lizard/lagarto of the Indies', "alligator", showing up in the OLB as a type of crocodile in the Punjab (IndiA) should alone give you some serious doubts. You think some 16th century Spaniard suddenly created that word out of nothing and immediately wrote it down? (In other words: why can it not be much older, IYO?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 20, 2012 #9549 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You think some 16th century Spaniard suddenly created that word out of nothing and immediately wrote it down? (In other words: why can it not be much older, IYO?) No, it is derived from the word lagarto or lizard. And then the extra bit in the definition: "from the Indies". When you read the episode in the OLB, you'll see several "Germanic" words meaning reptile and/or lizard. There are no alligators in IndiA, but there are in the IndIES. If you can show me a non-Spanish source, and one from before America was discovered by the Europeans, then you are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 20, 2012 #9550 Share Posted January 20, 2012 No, it is derived from the word lagarto or lizard. How can we be sure of that? Many official etymologies are nothing but speculation. There are no alligators in IndiA, but there are in the IndIES. Can we be sure that 2000 years ago they were not there either? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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