[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

How can we be sure of that?

Many official etymologies are nothing but speculation.

Can we be sure that 2000 years ago they were not there either?

Yes, but not all etymologies are speculation.

And if they were common in India/Pakistan 2000 years ago, they would most probably have been found.

+++++++++++

EDIT:

The earliest recorded form of alligator that is similar to ours appears in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet (First Folio, 1623): "In his needie shop a tortoyrs hung,/An Allegater stuft."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Swamp+lizard

.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

The earliest recorded form of alligator that is similar to ours appears in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet (First Folio, 1623): "In his needie shop a tortoyrs hung,/An Allegater stuft."

Aha!

Why would Shakespeare use a Spanish word that only recently had been 'invented'?

I don't buy it. The word can be much older.

It's no good proof that OLB has to be fake.

[Abramelin]

Aha!

Why would Shakespeare use a Spanish word that only recently had been 'invented'?

I don't buy it. The word can be much older.

It's no good proof that OLB has to be fake.

What you mean with 'recently'? It was a century old by then.

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Edited January 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

What you mean with 'recently'? It was a century old by then.

Yes, to me that's very recently.

Anyway, most unlikely that Shakespeare would use a foreign word.

[Abramelin]

Yes, to me that's very recently.

Anyway, most unlikely that Shakespeare would use a foreign word.

He was a poet, he'd use anything that sounded nice or appropriate.

Word History: In The Travailes of an Englishman, published in 1568, Job Hortop says that "in this river we killed a monstrous Lagarto or Crocodile." This killing gives rise to the first recorded instance of alligator in English, obviously in a different form from the one familiar to modern speakers. Alligator, which comes to us from Spanish el lagarto, "the lizard," was modified in pronunciation and form in several ways before taking on the form alligator. Such changes, referred to by linguists as taboo deformation, are not uncommon in a name for something that is feared and include, for example, the change in sequence of the r and t that occurred between el lagarto and alligator. An interesting parallel case is crocodile, which appears in Spanish, for example, as cocodrilo, with a similar difference in the sequence of the r. The earliest recorded form of alligator that is similar to ours appears in Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet (First Folio, 1623): "In his needie shop a tortoyrs hung,/An Allegater stuft."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/alligator

OK, it's 55 years, but still more than time enough for one Englishman to have learned it from another Englishman.

[Otharus]

Alligator, which comes to us from Spanish el lagarto, "the lizard," was modified in pronunciation and form in several ways before taking on the form alligator.

I have seen no proof for this and think it's more likely that it's the other way around; that lagarto is a bastardisation of alligator (all-getter).

Anyway.

Again: no hard evidence.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

I have seen no proof for this and think it's more likely that it's the other way around; that lagarto is a bastardisation of alligator (all-getter).

Anyway.

Again: no hard evidence.

No, these people of Webster and alike just make things up to fill the pages of their dictionaries, lol.

Btw, it's not just lagarto, but EL Lagarto, or The Lizard.

If there is an older source than Spanish, it must be Arab, something sounding like AL Lagarto.

.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Lol, this you will like:

lizard

"an animal resembling a serpent, with legs added to it" [Johnson], late 14c., from Anglo-Fr. lusard, from O.Fr. lesard (fem. laisarde), from L. lacertus (fem. lacerta) "lizard," of unknown origin, perhaps from PIE base *leq- "to bend, twist."

alligator

1560s, lagarto (modern form attested from 1620s, with excrescent -r as in tater, feller, etc.), a corruption of Sp. el lagarto (de Indias) "the lizard (of the Indies)," from L. lacertus (see lizard). Alligarter was an early variant.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=lizard&searchmode=none

The oldest known form is from Latin: Lacerta.

This may not be 'hard proof', but at least it should cause you to have some doubts.

No doubt you will focus on the "unknown origin".

And I hope you will remember our discussion concerning the etymology of the name of the "de Linde" river and those "Linden trees" (lime trees).

"Linna"/"Lenne" - bent, crooked, flexible, soft.

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Edited January 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Knul]

I think your 'evidence' that OLB has to be a hoax is very weak too.

You leave no space in your mind for the possibility that OLB is authentic.

I leave all possibilities open, but until now, my judgement is that it is far more likely that OLB is authentic, than that it is a forgery.

I am still waiting for your so called evidence.

[Knul]

No, these people of Webster and alike just make things up to fill the pages of their dictionaries, lol.

Btw, it's not just lagarto, but EL Lagarto, or The Lizard.

If there is an older source than Spanish, it must be Arab, something sounding like AL Lagarto.

.

The earliest known usage of alligator in English dates from the 17th century. s. http://www.myetymolo.../alligator.html. Before the animal was called crocodile, which word can be found in mediaeval texts.

Edited January 20, 2012 by Knul

[Abramelin]

The earliest known usage of alligator in English dates from the 17th century. s. http://www.myetymolo.../alligator.html. Before the animal was called crocodile, which word can be found in mediaeval texts.

Man, I showed that to Otharus like 3 times.

The 17th century.

READ, please.

[The Puzzler]

I'm starting to read this, I touched on it before but will continue investigations of it.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:rPz8F26vnwsJ:www.cumorah.com/etexts/waddellaryanoriginofalphabet.pdf+Aryan+Origin+of+the+Alphabet&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShnEzGm2SIG3mGv5O71HumelaxX6zbel9MCv_zbCWfmSWzSdAZ5T3XYWSLG0yDrYXtpaWsNjVPIj8OBSqkIe4BqS5XjD6A3XfkkxPoklxwKY7Y9vd2sRkzbe7PGnSSH826LaUWV&sig=AHIEtbQoRYLhaOOW8G0Eu1KqPtWbDih-lw

Waddell and his theory of an original 'Aryan' alphabet that went into Sumeria and came out as Phoenician taken into Sumeria by a culture from the Danube area.

From the 1920's Waddell published several works which attempted to prove an Aryan (i.e., Indo-European) origin of the alphabet and the appearance of Indo-European myth figures in ancient Near Eastern mythologies (e.g Hittite, Sumerian, Babylonian). The foundation of his argument is what he saw as a persistence of cult practices, religious symbols, mythological stories and figures, and god and hero names (based on etymology) throughout Western and Near Eastern civilizations, but also based his arguments on his deciphered Sumerian and Indus-Valley seals, and other archaeological findings. He is commemorated in the Giant Babax Babax waddelli.

Proto-Indo-European Homeland Waddell placed the Proto-Indo-European or Proto-Aryan homeland in the Danube Valley, adjacent to the Black Sea from the 6th-4th millenium BC.[31] The archaeologist V. Gordon Childe also considered this location as the homeland of the Proto-Aryans (Proto-Indo-Europeans) after his research on the Danubian culture, especially its pottery.[32]

Today, the Danubian (or nearby Balkan) homeland hypothesis of the Proto-Indo-European still has scholary support.

Forgot to save the above link info, it's just Wiki, will find them in a minute.

Edited January 21, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This caught my eye:

IN Column 21 - Modern "English" or Euro. letter forms, the so called Roman letters, which however, are now seen to have been current in Britain and the British Isles several centuries before the rise of the Romans and the foundation of Rome; and are thus more British than Roman.

I have to retype it, I can't seem to cut and paste, never mind.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:rPz8F26vnwsJ:www.cumorah.com/etexts/waddellaryanoriginofalphabet.pdf+Aryan+Origin+of+the+Alphabet&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShnEzGm2SIG3mGv5O71HumelaxX6zbel9MCv_zbCWfmSWzSdAZ5T3XYWSLG0yDrYXtpaWsNjVPIj8OBSqkIe4BqS5XjD6A3XfkkxPoklxwKY7Y9vd2sRkzbe7PGnSSH826LaUWV&sig=AHIEtbQoRYLhaOOW8G0Eu1KqPtWbDih-lw

Interesting alphabet chart follows.

[Otharus]

I am still waiting for your so called evidence.

It's not my ambition to convince you as I don't think your mind is susceptible for reason, so I would be wasting my time.

I just correct your misinformation and mistakes, like recently with HÁPE WOPA, that you have not thanked me for yet.

You should do your homework, man, and read De Gemaskerde God as well as the letters between Over de Linden and Ottema (published by Mr.N.Luitse).

[Otharus]

This may not be 'hard proof', but at least it should cause you to have some doubts.

I'm not impressed.

There have been reasonings in this thread that made more sense and were still rejected by you.

So, I'm interested to know, what IYO is the OLB word or fragment (or top 3) that would most obviously proof that it CANNOT be a 13th century copy?

[Otharus]

To be read on the church of Wommels in Fryslân, next to the graveyard:

Hier is Geschiet een Rechtveerdich recht

die heer lecht hier al bij den Knecht hier

lecht den aermen al bij den Ricke den Leeleke

al bij den suiverlicke hier lecht den buer al bij den

Eedelman de Geleerde al bij die niet en kan hier

lecht de sot al bij den Wijse den longe al bij den olde

Grise Coempt hier wat Naeder bij en segget

mij wije Rick arm Schoen ofte Eedel sij hier

Leggen sij al bij elc ander den eene en is niet

Meer Geacht Als den Ander Anno 1591.

What happens here is righteous:

The lord lies next to the servant,

the poor with the rich,

the ugly with the purelike,

the neighbor with the nobleman,

the scholar with the nitwit.

Here the fool lies with the wise,

the long with the old grey.

Come closer and tell me;

Who is rich, poor, beautiful or noble?

Here they all lie together.

The one is not considered more as the other.

Year 1591.

[Otharus]

St. Catherine with the (broken) Wheel in the Bonifatius-church Leeuwarden:

[The Puzzler]

The PIE leq - turn, bend. This is actually leq (TO REND). This PIE base can be found in Frisian and this is what makes me think these words can all go back to an original European language, possibly a Frisian one. You rend something BY twisting and turning it, you tear eg:paper by twisting and turning it.

lacerate

1590s, from L. laceratus, pp. of lacerare "tear to pieces, mangle," from lacer "torn, mangled," from PIE base *leq- "to rend" (cf. Gk. lakis "tatter, rag," lakizein "to tear to pieces;" Rus. lochma "rag, tatter, scrap;" Albanian lakur "naked").

http://dictionary.reference.com/etymology/self+lacerating

lek 2, afries., Sb.: nhd. Schaden, Nachteil; ne. damage (N.), disadvantage; Hw.: s.

lak-ia; Q.: W, S, AA 69; E.: s. lak-ia; W.: nfries. leck; W.: saterl. lec; L.: Hh 64a,

Rh 890a, AA 69

lak/PIE laq is (apparently) different.

PS: I can easily get lak as disadvantage(lek) though - through LACK - lack (n.)

c.1300, "absence, want; shortage, deficiency," perhaps from an unrecorded O.E. *lac, or else borrowed from M.Du. lak "deficiency, fault;" in either case from P.Gmc. *laka- (cf. O.Fris. lek "disadvantage, damage," O.N. lakr "lacking"), from PIE *leg- "to dribble, trickle." M.E. also had lackless "without blame or fault."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=lack

I very much doubt lek and lak will actually be different etymologies - note M.Du LAK 'fault' to O.Fris lek - disadvantage, damage. lek/leq and lak/laq are both Frisian words, apparent PIE words.

Forget that one for now though.

Here's the original PIE meaning 'to rend':

rend

O.E. rendon "to tear, cut," from W.Gmc. *randijanan (cf. O.Fris. renda "to cut, break," M.L.G. rende "anything broken"), related to rind. Not found in other Gmc. languages.

renda - to tear, cut = leq = lek = damage/disadvantage

rend 8, reind, afries., M.: nhd. Riss, Zerreißung, Verletzung; ne. tearing (N.),

injury; Q.: B, E, R, Schw; E.: s. rend-a; L.: Hh 86b, Hh 87a, Rh 991b

rend-a 16, renna* (2), afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. zerreißen, reißen, zerbrechen; ne.

tear (V.) up; Vw.: s. a-, bi-, fon-, in-, to-, twõ-, *ðt-; Hw.: vgl. ae. rendan; Q.: B, S,

E, H, W; E.: ?; W.: nnordä renne, ranne; L.: Hh 87a, Rh 992a

O.E. rinde "bark, crust," later "peel of a fruit or vegetable" (c.1400), from P.Gmc. *rendo- (cf. O.S. rinda, M.Du. rinde, Ger. Rinde), related to O.E. rendan "to rend."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=rind

to render (tear) = PIE word for leq = lek = damage

(renda)tear, cut means (leq)lek=damage.

THIS ALL COMES THROUGH IN FRISIAN. These meanings co-incidently mean what they mean in Greek, in Frisian. Greek lakis, rag, tatter = Frisian lek (PIE leq/damage=renda/tear)

I can think of many words in Ancient Greek with this sound, Laocoon the priest who tried to warn the Trojans, but also Laconia/Lacedaemonia (Sparta) too.

Edited January 21, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

And I hope you will remember our discussion concerning the etymology of the name of the "de Linde" river and those "Linden trees" (lime trees).

"Linna"/"Lenne" - bent, crooked, flexible, soft.

.

Linden trees have nothing to do with lizards.

Lime is an altered form of Middle English lind, in the 16th century also line, from Old English feminine lind or linde, Proto-Germanic *lendā, cognate to Latin lentus "flexible" and Sanskrit latā "liana". Within Germanic languages, English lithe, German lind "lenient, yielding" are from the same root.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilia

Probably more likely to do with lin, linseed-flax, soft. Linen was made with flax, hence LINen, lanolin, linoleum - all lin/linseed/flax words.

lÆn 1 und häufiger?, afries., Sb.: nhd. Lein; ne. linseed; Vw.: s. hre-g-g-, -werk;

Hw.: vgl. got. lein*, an. lÆn, ae. lÆn, as. lÆn*, ahd. lÆn*; E.: germ. *lÆna-, *lÆnam, st.

N. (a), Lein, Linnen, Leinen; s. lat. lÆnum, N., Flachs, Lein; idg. *lÂno-, Sb., Lein?,

Pokorny 691?; L.: Hh 66b

[The Puzzler]

When something that holds water is 'damaged' it gets a leak - leq/lek. In English this is the same word as PIE leq - leak.

A leak is a hole. Think of the story even I know, about the little Dutch boy who puts his finger in the hole in the dike to stop the leak.

The hole is the lek (the tear/damage - hole).

The hole then comes to life, get's a life of it's own, in words like lacuna and lace. Both these words retain a meaning of 'hole' - 'gap'.

Lace is only lace when it has holes. A lacuna is a large gap or hole.

Laocoon, the Trojan priest who warned them to not bring in the horse, he is often cited as being Ophiuchus, the constellation is a big empty box. (The extra zodiac sign). Like an empty hole in the sky. leq/lek = damage, a tear or hole - to cut etc.

The more I look the more I see this word everywhere.

Lizard may be so named because of the manner it rips and tears things. From leq. - to rend. to cut/tear. Not exactly to bend though.

[Otharus]

Proto-Germanic *lendā, cognate to Latin lentus "flexible" and Sanskrit latā "liana".

Within Germanic languages, English lithe, German lind "lenient, yielding" are from the same root.

The Dutch word for flexible is "lenig".

[The Puzzler]

Here's a Latin Dictionary. How very useful.

http://www.math.ubc.ca/~cass/frivs/latin/latin-dict-full.html

[Abramelin]

This caught my eye:

IN Column 21 - Modern "English" or Euro. letter forms, the so called Roman letters, which however, are now seen to have been current in Britain and the British Isles several centuries before the rise of the Romans and the foundation of Rome; and are thus more British than Roman.

I have to retype it, I can't seem to cut and paste, never mind.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:rPz8F26vnwsJ:www.cumorah.com/etexts/waddellaryanoriginofalphabet.pdf+Aryan+Origin+of+the+Alphabet&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShnEzGm2SIG3mGv5O71HumelaxX6zbel9MCv_zbCWfmSWzSdAZ5T3XYWSLG0yDrYXtpaWsNjVPIj8OBSqkIe4BqS5XjD6A3XfkkxPoklxwKY7Y9vd2sRkzbe7PGnSSH826LaUWV&sig=AHIEtbQoRYLhaOOW8G0Eu1KqPtWbDih-lw

Interesting alphabet chart follows.

Yes, the guy continues with the 19th century idea (also check his references) that the Aryan civilization started in (Northern) Europe.

Btw: you can copy and paste if you click on the HTML button:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:rPz8F26vnwsJ:www.cumorah.com/etexts/waddellaryanoriginofalphabet.pdf+Aryan+Origin+of+the+Alphabet&hl=en&gl=au

I also found this to be rather interesting: "Cumorah Foundation", lol.

In case you don't know: the Mormons.

[Abramelin]

The Dutch word for flexible is "lenig".

An excellent site, but alas, in Dutch:

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/lenig

[Abramelin]

Linden trees have nothing to do with lizards.

Lime is an altered form of Middle English lind, in the 16th century also line, from Old English feminine lind or linde, Proto-Germanic *lendā, cognate to Latin lentus "flexible" and Sanskrit latā "liana". Within Germanic languages, English lithe, German lind "lenient, yielding" are from the same root.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilia

Probably more likely to do with lin, linseed-flax, soft. Linen was made with flax, hence LINen, lanolin, linoleum - all lin/linseed/flax words.

lÆn 1 und häufiger?, afries., Sb.: nhd. Lein; ne. linseed; Vw.: s. hre-g-g-, -werk;

Hw.: vgl. got. lein*, an. lÆn, ae. lÆn, as. lÆn*, ahd. lÆn*; E.: germ. *lÆna-, *lÆnam, st.

N. (a), Lein, Linnen, Leinen; s. lat. lÆnum, N., Flachs, Lein; idg. *lÂno-, Sb., Lein?,

Pokorny 691?; L.: Hh 66b

I didn't claim at all linden trees had anything to do with lizards, jeesh. It's about the root of both words, and that root has to do with being flexible, for both linden as well as lizard:

lizard

"an animal resembling a serpent, with legs added to it" [Johnson], late 14c., from Anglo-Fr. lusard, from O.Fr. lesard (fem. laisarde), from L. lacertus (fem. lacerta) "lizard," of unknown origin, perhaps from PIE base *leq- "to bend, twist."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=lizard&searchmode=none

And your 'linseed' is just a couple of stops before "lenne'/linna'.

.

Edited January 21, 2012 by Abramelin