[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

n-â (1) 4, n-ô, afries., Adv.: nhd. nie, nein; ne. never, no (Interj.)

ne 150 und häufiger?, ni, en (3), afries., Adv.: nhd. nicht, noch, denn; ne. not, yet

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-N.pdf

Oh yeah, lol, I blew that, I am sure it said never for ne.

OK, still...

'No, step not too forcibly' - I guess hasty could be acceptable but the word is like lopa/lopen/lope, it starts becoming anything you want to interpret it as that way.

Forcibly must have originally been a form of what hasty meant, more forceful than just hasty.

Edited February 9, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

It's not about liking this or that, it is about staying as close to the original text using words with the same meaning that are closest in spelling to those used in the original text.

Well, that is what I prefer above a 'poetic' interpretation.

+++

And yes, ofcourse we know that the double negation pertains "HASTICH", not "HLAPA".

.

Quite frankly I really like, TREAD SOFTLY, FOR HERE LIES ADELA - I even suggested that line for Otharus' van - but I certainly agree it is not what the OLB says.

[Abramelin]

Oh yeah, lol, I blew that, I am sure it said never for ne.

OK, still...

'No, step not too forcibly' - I guess hasty could be acceptable but the word is like lopa/lopen/lope, it starts becoming anything you want to interpret it as that way.

Forcibly must have originally been a form of what hasty meant, more forceful than just hasty.

It may have meant that, originally. But for a literal translation you should use this "hasty". Even in old Anglo-Frisian or old Anglo-Saxon they would have had the word end with -ig or -ich. Later on these endeing were shortened in English to -y.

Anyway, I'm glad I'm Dutch:

Ne hlap navt to hastich hwand hyr lêid Adela

Nie loop niet te haastig want hier leit Adela.

I wonder how this sentence would be in Afrikaans.

.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

haste (n.)

early 13c., from O.Fr. haste "haste, urgency, hastiness" (12c., Mod.Fr. hâte), from Frankish *haifst "violence," from W.Gmc. *haifstiz (cf. Goth. haifsts "strife," O.E. hæste "violent, vehement, impetuous"). To make haste is recorded by 1530s

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=haste&allowed_in_frame=0

violence, vehement, impetuous - forcibly

Many words imo do not mean what we think they might mean, the word is probably more likened to forcibly in the sense of earlier meaning of above meanings, violence, impetuous, esp. vehement that developed into hasty as in urgency, speedy.

Basically do not step violently, impetuously (carelessly and rough) rather than hastily, speedily walking past the gravestone.

[The Puzzler]

That's why softly is the translated word, the opposite of what HASTICH really means: roughly

By using hasty (speedy/hastily) as the word you have immediately made the OLB language seem a newer language.

Edited February 9, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

haste (n.)

early 13c., from O.Fr. haste "haste, urgency, hastiness" (12c., Mod.Fr. hâte), from Frankish *haifst "violence," from W.Gmc. *haifstiz (cf. Goth. haifsts "strife," O.E. hæste "violent, vehement, impetuous"). To make haste is recorded by 1530s

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=haste&allowed_in_frame=0

violence, vehement, impetuous - forcibly

Many words imo do not mean what we think they might mean, the word is probably more likened to forcibly in the sense of earlier meaning of above meanings, violence, impetuous, esp. vehement that developed into hasty as in urgency, speedy.

Basically do not step violently, impetuously (carelessly and rough) rather than hastily, speedily walking past the gravestone.

This is what HASTICH is said to mean according to that Dutch etymology site I linked to: hasty, premature, fast acting, thoughtless; quick, sudden

Forcibly or violently would not make much sense in this case. It is more about not paying attention to someone you should respect the grave of when you pass by. So thoughtless or careless would be better, I think.

[The Puzzler]

This is what HASTICH is said to mean according to that Dutch etymology site I linked to: hasty, premature, fast acting, thoughtless; quick, sudden

Forcibly or violently would not make much sense in this case. It is more about not paying attention to someone you should respect the grave of when you pass by. So thoughtless or careless would be better, I think.

It makes sense imo.

But I agree thoughtlessly and carelessly are good words if you want to interpret the original meaning of haste, back to forcible (roughly) and back to the original meaning. Opposite of softly as well.

But hasty as in speedy, premature, fast acting are imo later meanings that came through but not what the OLB hastich means, which is forcible ie; (roughly/violently or thoughtlessly, carelessly).

That is why hasty should not be used.

Back tomorrow.

Edited February 9, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

This is what Google Translator makes out of 'hasty', and please click both links:

http://translate.google.nl/#en|nl|hasty

http://translate.google.nl/#nl|en|haastig%0D%0Agehaast%0D%0Aoverijld%0D%0Adriftig%0D%0Aoverhaastig

The whole thing about 'forcibly' is this:

Suppose I have to write a rather important letter/email very fast. In that case I 'force' myself to put something, anything on paper and be done with it. And making mistakes as a I 'hurry' along.

OK Puzz, sleep well.

.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Because 'animosity' in that fragment does not make sense.

COdL respected Ottema, but didn't think the erudite doctor was omniscient.

Ottema had had a better education and social status than OdL, but he was less intelligent.

In this case, he did indeed.

He had put a big effort in educating himself.

Yes, Cornelis was not prejudiced by the Latin meaning.

He may have read or heard about the Saxon or Nordic meaning, or just used his common sense.

In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD.

He could not imagine that his ancestors would tell their children that life had originated out of animosity or hatred, which is a sick idea anyway.

He simply had an obvious interest in having the manuscripty of his ancestors translated as good as possible.

Your ideas about COdL are based on your ignorance about him. You should read his letters and diaries if you are serious about your theory.

I may be ignorant of CodL's letters and diary, but not about his intelligence.

That is one of the first things I understood, and not just by his library.

+++

"In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD."

Or it is just nothing but your misinterpretation of the sentence and that point? It is not a point/period, like I already said: it is a connecting underscore between DRAMA and WRALDAS. Even the scan you posted showed that it was a connecting underscore, not a period/point:

But you could have said it was a hastily written point/period.

++++++++

EDIT:

I think we all here agree how important these dots and lines are for translating the OLB correctly.

It's also not a distraction from what is 'really' important like someone here has said.

It gives me a pain in the head, all this fuss about a word or even a dot, but it's something we will have to go through if we want a correct translation. And that means a better one than Ottema's/Sandbach's which is riddled with errors, blatant mistakes, and wrong interpretations.

.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Abramelin

[Knul]

Because 'animosity' in that fragment does not make sense.

COdL respected Ottema, but didn't think the erudite doctor was omniscient.

Ottema had had a better education and social status than OdL, but he was less intelligent.

In this case, he did indeed.

He had put a big effort in educating himself.

Yes, Cornelis was not prejudiced by the Latin meaning.

He may have read or heard about the Saxon or Nordic meaning, or just used his common sense.

In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD.

He could not imagine that his ancestors would tell their children that life had originated out of animosity or hatred, which is a sick idea anyway.

He simply had an obvious interest in having the manuscripty of his ancestors translated as good as possible.

Your ideas about COdL are based on your ignorance about him. You should read his letters and diaries if you are serious about your theory.

How do you measure, that Ottema was less intelligent than Over de Linden ?

[Knul]

I may be ignorant of CodL's letters and diary, but not about his intelligence.

That is one of the first things I understood, and not just by his library.

+++

"In that case he would also have mentioned the misplacing of the point between WRALDAS and OD."

Or it is just nothing but your misinterpretation of the sentence and that point? It is not a point/period, like I already said: it is a connecting underscore between DRAMA and WRALDAS. Even the scan you posted showed that it was a connecting underscore, not a period/point:

.

The books for his library have initially been bought by his compagnon Stadermann in Amsterdam and were later advised by Ottema. His own books deal with shipmaking and gardening.

[Abramelin]

The books for his library have initially been bought by his compagnon Stadermann in Amsterdam and were later advised by Ottema. His own books deal with shipmaking and gardening.

Really? I remember you posting about philosophical books written in French and owned by CodL?

And also about CodL owning books about Old Frisian language, ie: dictionaries.

[Abramelin]

How do you measure, that Ottema was less intelligent than Over de Linden ?

Good question.

From what I learned throughout these years, Ottema and Cornelis over de Linden were opposites.

Ottema had had the education Over de Linden had not.

But having had an education will not make you more intelligent, it will make you more knowledgable.

Over de Linden studied on his own, and he most certainly was not a fool.

To me CodL was a clever guy, a shrewd guy, able to lie and pretend he was nothing but some innocent victim of circumstances and family history, and Ottema was like wax in his hands because CodL knew he could pretend and intend as much as he wanted to because an Ottema would gobble it all up whole.

.

[Alewyn]

Well, Puzz's translation is more of a poetic interpretation.

But I agree we should refrain from doing that and stay as close as possible to the original text.

My translation:

"Don't walk too hastily for here lies Adela."

Sandbach's:

"Tread softly, for here lies Adela.""

Sandbach's translation is also a poetic interpretation, and not close to the original text.

.

For what it is worth, I translated this as:

“Do not pass in haste, for here lies Adela”

[Abramelin]

For what it is worth, I translated this as:

“Do not pass in haste, for here lies Adela”

Well, that surely was the intent of the message, and it sounds beautiful, clear, and accurate.

Agreed, this is what we should use.

Btw: I do have somewhat of a 'poetic inclination', but I prefer a translation that is a combination of accuracy and poetry, and your translation is just fine.

I like it.

.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

Well, that surely was the intent of the message, and it sounds beautiful, clear, and accurate.

Agreed, this is what we should use.

Btw: I do have somewhat of a 'poetic inclination', but I prefer a translation that is a combination of accuracy and poetry, and your translation is just fine.

I like it.

Thanks Abe. I realy appreciate your approval.

[Abramelin]

Thanks Abe. I realy appreciate your approval.

You're welcome, Alewyn.

I know, I once assumed that English was your first language, and that then you replied by telling me that you had to 'rack your brains' while trying to come up with some translation into English.

Well, from all the translations of that one sentence, by Puzz, Otharus, and me, I think yours is the most poetic AND respectful (and that must have been the intention of the line).

It has this smooth, intelligent and sensitive.. uhm.. flavor (?) that I like most in poems.

++

EDIT:

I will tell you something else...

In high school we studied Dutch poetry, and also poetry from our socalled 'colonies'.

So, one day we were discussing poetry from the Dutch Antilles, and our teacher handed out booklets.

Of course that teacher expected to get back all the booklets he had handed out, because he knew no one would be that interested to be willing to steal it.

Heh, well, afterwards he collected the booklets, and then he missed only one...

OK, after something resembling a police interrogation, I admiited, red face and all, that I had stolen the booklet.

But he didn't respond as I expected... he said, "never in my dreams I would have imagined one of my pupils to steal poetry".

And that was it.

.

Edited February 9, 2012 by Abramelin

[Knul]

Really? I remember you posting about philosophical books written in French and owned by CodL?

And also about CodL owning books about Old Frisian language, ie: dictionaries.

You may find the complete list of books of Cornelis over de Linden on http://rodinbook.nl/veilingoverdelinden.html. As you can see there I have checked all titles and completed them. Over de Linden started to learn modern French (because of Volney), but did not understand Oldfrisian, Oldislandic, or other languages. It has been reported that his compagnon Staderman knew some biblical Hebrew and Greek, and that he learned some Oldfrisian.

[Knul]

Good question.

From what I learned throughout these years, Ottema and Cornelis over de Linden were opposites.

Ottema had had the education Over de Linden had not.

But having had an education will not make you more intelligent, it will make you more knowledgable.

Over de Linden studied on his own, and he most certainly was not a fool.

To me CodL was a clever guy, a shrewd guy, able to lie and pretend he was nothing but some innocent victim of circumstances and family history, and Ottema was like wax in his hands because CodL knew he could pretend and intend as much as he wanted to because an Ottema would gobble it all up whole.

.

Cornelis over de Linden was the victim of Ernest Stadermann, who influenced him very much as is stated in DBNL. That would make Ernest Stadermann more intelligent than Cornelis over de Linden ?

[Abramelin]

Cornelis over de Linden was the victim of Ernest Stadermann, who influenced him very much as is stated in DBNL. That would make Ernest Stadermann more intelligent than Cornelis over de Linden ?

It would make Stadermann an accomplish of Over de Linden.

Yeah, agreed, a CodL would use the expertise of a Stadermann, and use Stadermann's drive and fanatisiscm to his own advantage.

Stadermann was the fanatic, CodL was the clever, scheming guy. CodL used anything he could find and anyone he was able to please with his sorry story about his family history to help him defend his, heh, 'family chronicles'.

I know an Otharus doesn't like this angle one bit, but I am sorry to say that I know guys who did exactly that.

They only didn't become famous like CodL because of what they did.

Maybe CodL was as innocent as a new-born baby, but his letters can never be proof of that.

ANYONE can pretend to be innocent. All they need is a smooth talk, an excellent command of their language (meaning: no slips of the tongue), and an excellent memory.

Heh, ask any person who sells cars, or whatever.

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Edited February 9, 2012 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

You're welcome, Alewyn.

I hope you will not laugh out too loud and that you will pardon my getting a bit philosophical, but this is how I see this epitaph: Do not pass in haste, for here lies Adela

If the OLB is real, we owe our glimpse into this forgotten history and people to this lady. The Oera Linda Book is her legacy. These words then speak directly to us; more than 2500 years later!

One can almost interpret them to mean:

Do not deny her life but take time to reflect on what Adela ovira Linda gave to the world.

Just imagine anyone of us leaving a legacy that will still be of significance 2500 years hence, say, in the year 4500 AD!

Edited February 9, 2012 by Alewyn

[Abramelin]

I hope you will not laugh out too loud and that you will pardon my getting a bit philosophical, but this is how I see this epitaph: “Do not pass in haste, for here lies Adela”

If the OLB is real, we owe our glimpse into this forgotten history and people to this lady. The Oera Linda Book is her legacy. These words then speaks directly to us; more than 2500 years later!

One can almost interpret them to mean:

“Do not deny her life but take time to reflect on what Adela ovira Linda gave to the world.”

Just imagine anyone of us leaving a legacy that will still be of significance 2500 years hence, say, in the year 4500 AD!

Yes Alewyn, I DO know this line is about having respect for someone famous in Frisian history.

I will not laugh out loud, I do know how you feel.

Let me tell you something else: maybe someday it will be a proven fact that the OLB is a hoax, or a fabrication, or whetever I should call it.

Still, I would like it if someone said: "OK, the OLB is nothing but a fantasy, but I want the text of the OLB to be part of Frisian heritage, and maybe even as the text of the Frisian national anthem."

No problems here, I know about Frisian history, and I think they have every right to adopt a grand fantasy like the OLB for their national anthem.

No sht, I would LOVE it.

I do hope I made it clear: I learned a lot about ancient Frisian history when researching for this thread, and much more than I learned in highschool.

I would be perfectly happy if some Frisian guy said it would be a great idea to adopt a line from the OLB as part of their national anthem.

_____

EDIT:

Otharus once suggested that the Frisians and their true history were being suppressed.

Well, I cannot say I agree with his point of view, but I think I did my best to promote their accomplishments throughout history.

And I have nothing to gain by that. I am not a Frisian.

I learned about their history, and I posted about it.

And the more I learned about their TRUE history, the more they gained my respect.

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Edited February 9, 2012 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

Yes Alewyn, I DO know this line is about having respect for someone famous in Frisian history.

I will not laugh out loud, I do know how you feel.

Let me tell you something else: maybe someday it will be a proven fact that the OLB is a hoax, or a fabrication, or whetever I should call it.

Still, I would like it if someone said: "OK, the OLB is nothing but a fantasy, but I want the text of the OLB to be part of Frisian heritage, and maybe even as the text of the Frisian national anthem."

No problems here, I know about Frisian history, and I think they have every right to adopt a grand fantasy like the OLB for their national anthem.

No sht, I would LOVE it.

I do hope I made it clear: I learned a lot about ancient Frisian history when researching for this thread, and much more than I learned in highschool.

I would be perfectly happy if some Frisian guy said it would be a great idea to adopt a line from the OLB as part of their national anthem.

_____

EDIT:

Otharus once suggested that the Frisians and their true history were being suppressed.

Well, I cannot say I agree with his point of view, but I think I did my best to promote their accomplishments throughout history.

And I have nothing to gain by that. I am not a Frisian.

I learned about their history, and I posted about it.

And the more I learned about their TRUE history, the more they gained my respect.

.

Maat 'k hem raad.

Maybe this is handled before, but for me it is clear that the personal Names used, are also common flemisch words.

For instance:

"Thit is thju skêdnesse fon Jon aend Minerva."

Translated in Sandbach

"This is the history of Jon and of Min-erva."

Can be easily read in West-Flemish:

'This is the history of Your and Mine Heritage' (non materiële erfenis, eigenlijk er-van-is, afkomst, cultuur)

Oera Linda can been read by the Flemisch people if they speak out loud the phonetic words at the right of Sandbachs text.

BTW I see many prints of the original script. Very interesting, where can this be found?

[Otharus]

The books for his library have initially been bought by his compagnon Stadermann in Amsterdam and were later advised by Ottema.

There is no proof for any contact between Over de Lindenm and Stadermann, other than in the year they were neighbors (1845).

[Abramelin]

Maat 'k hem raad.

Maybe this is handled before, but for me it is clear that the personal Names used, are also common flemisch words.

For instance:

"Thit is thju skêdnesse fon Jon aend Minerva."

Translated in Sandbach

"This is the history of Jon and of Min-erva."

Can be easily read in West-Flemish:

'This is the history of Your and Mine Heritage' (non materiële erfenis, eigenlijk er-van-is, afkomst, cultuur)

Oera Linda can been read by the Flemisch people if they speak out loud the phonetic words at the right of Sandbachs text.

BTW I see many prints of the original script. Very interesting, where can this be found?

Photos of the original text can be found here: http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/

And Overwijn (the one who, after Ottema and Wirth, published a book about the OLB plus translation) showed us an example of the Menapian language (a prayer), and those guys lived in what is now Flanders. This Menapian language looked a lot like the language used in the OLB. And that could be - like I have posted before - that these Menapians were just another tribe of Frisians.

Around this page I talked about the Menapians:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&st=6030

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Edited February 10, 2012 by Abramelin