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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


Riaan

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I have here Plate 1 (bl. 45) in front of me. It is called a Fac-Simile. As lithographer is mentioned A. v. Calsbeek Leeuw(arden ?), which means that this page was part of the M.S. The same would apply to the next page 46. By the way I do not see Latin characters on that page. s. http://rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html.

Look at page 46 here:

http://images.tresoar.nl/bibl-collectie/boeken/oeralinda/groot/pagina.php?p=48&pm=212

It has latin characters below the Yule wheels.

And the page looks as old as the rest on the manuscript.

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Look at page 46 here:

http://images.tresoa...php?p=48&pm=212

It has latin characters below the Yule wheels.

And the page looks as old as the rest on the manuscript.

Sorry, there are no Latin characters around the wheel, but juul-script.I agree, that they could easily be determined by anyone.

Edited by Knul
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Sorry, there are no Latin characters around the wheel, but juul-script.I agree, that they could easily be determined by anyone.

My mistake: I posted a link to the original plate II, but I kept seeing the one in Sandbach's book before my mind's eye:

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#at

Sandbach's version does have latin characters below the Yule wheel. The original I linked to earlier has socalled 'run-script' or the italic form of the OLB script.

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The "middel-sê" from the OLB, or "Middle Sea" or... Mediterranean Sea.

Something I have totally overlooked for 2 years now is... that a very common abbreviation for the Dutch name "Middellandse Zee", or in English the Mediterranean Sea, is... "Middell. Zee".

An example can be found here, a book from 1661:

Hollandse mercurius: verhalende de voornaemste saken van staet, en andere ... / 1661

(and enter "Middell" )

http://books.google.nl/books?id=IPAdAQAAMAAJ&pg=RA3-PA130&lpg=RA3-PA130&dq=warns+mercurius&source=bl&ots=F8Aw6gXW9h&sig=TL_BaOBUbzuWLfzv5J9dhqEtAX4&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=Jbw4T8v5C4ic-wauov3yAQ&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q&f=false

Or Google "Middell. Zee" and you will see it was (and is) indeed a very common way of abbreviating Middellandse Zee.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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My mistake: I posted a link to the original plate II, but I kept seeing the one in Sandbach's book before my mind's eye:

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#at

Sandbach's version does have latin characters below the Yule wheel. The original I linked to earlier has socalled 'run-script' or the italic form of the OLB script.

To avoid misunderstandings the best we could do is to use the scans of the original manuscript s. http://rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html. I am preparing a new manuscript text. I was shocked to find many mistakes in the trancription by Ottema, consequently in his translation, consequently in Sandbach's translation, consequently in other translations based on Ottema or Sandbach. This does not mean, that the manuscript text is correct, because that text too contains obvious mistakes, but we have no better.

runskrift = lopend schrift, which is not the same as italic. In runskrift the letters are connected like in handwiting.Runskrift is a faster and more economic way to write texts.

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The "middel-sê" from the OLB, or "Middle Sea" or... Mediterranean Sea.

Something I have totally overlooked for 2 years now is... that a very common abbreviation for the Dutch name "Middellandse Zee", or in English the Mediterranean Sea, is... "Middell. Zee".

An example can be found here, a book from 1661:

Hollandse mercurius: verhalende de voornaemste saken van staet, en andere ... / 1661

(and enter "Middell" )

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Or Google "Middell. Zee" and you will see it was (and is) indeed a very common way of abbreviating Middellandse Zee.

.

When in the OLB is spoken of the Middel Se in all cases is refered to the Mediterranean Sea and/or the Phoenicians.

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When in the OLB is spoken of the Middel Se in all cases is refered to the Mediterranean Sea and/or the Phoenicians.

Well, as I have posted about many times now, when the OLB describes the borders of Fryan territory, it uses the Aster Sea/Baltic in the east ("morning") and the Middel Sea in the west ("evening"). That can never have meant the Mediterranean which is in the south; it can only have meant the Frisian Middle Sea.

For the test of the OLB, yes, it looks like the Middle Sea is nothing but the Mediterranean.

But my former post was about the name itself as it shows up in the OLB.

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Well, as I have posted about many times now, when the OLB describes the borders of Fryan territory, it uses the Aster Sea/Baltic in the east ("morning") and the Middel Sea in the west ("evening"). That can never have meant the Mediterranean which is in the south; it can only have meant the Frisian Middle Sea.

For the test of the OLB, yes, it looks like the Middle Sea is nothing but the Mediterranean.

But my former post was about the name itself as it shows up in the OLB.

Yes, I know your idea very well, but you should realize, that if the sun goes up in the East at the Baltic sea and goes down in the West at the Middelzee (Leeuwarden), you leave out the whole Frisian territory from Leeuwarden to Sincfall, including the main Fryasburg at Texland, the Waraburgt and Stavoren. I would not take that to my responsibilty.

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Yes, I know your idea very well, but you should realize, that if the sun goes up in the East at the Baltic sea and goes down in the West at the Middelzee (Leeuwarden), you leave out the whole Frisian territory from Leeuwarden to Sincfall, including the main Fryasburg at Texland, the Waraburgt and Stavoren. I would not take that to my responsibilty.

That area you descibe fits the "former Westland" perfectly:

[OL] That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven

[DU] Dit staat up alle burchten geschreven

[EN] This is inscribed on all burchs

(...)

[OL] To jenst vr vs formêlich Westland thêr hêdon wi Brittanja mith sina tinlâna.

[DU] Te-gen over ons voormalig Westland daar hadden we Brittania met zijn tinlanden

[EN] Opposite our former Westland we had Britain with its tin lands

The 'former Westland' is what was later lost to the Franks and Hollanders: West-Flanders, the Dutch provinces of Zeeland, Zuidholland, Noordholland and part of Friesland (west of the Bordine = border-river, later to become the estuary called the Middle Sea).

You will say the time line is wrong, but that is what I have been saying from about the start of this thread.

+++

EDIT:

And "Westland" is still an area in the province of Zuidholland.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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That area you descibe fits the "former Westland" perfectly:

[OL] That stêt vp alle burgum eskrêven

[DU] Dit staat up alle burchten geschreven

[EN] This is inscribed on all burchs

(...)

[OL] To jenst vr vs formêlich Westland thêr hêdon wi Brittanja mith sina tinlâna.

[DU] Te-gen over ons voormalig Westland daar hadden we Brittania met zijn tinlanden

[EN] Opposite our former Westland we had Britain with its tin lands

The 'former Westland' is what was later lost to the Franks and Hollanders: West-Flanders, the Dutch provinces of Zeeland, Zuidholland, Noordholland and part of Friesland (west of the Bordine = border-river, later to become the estuary called the Middle Sea).

You will say the time line is wrong, but that is what I have been saying from about the start of this thread.

+++

EDIT:

And "Westland" is still an area in the province of Zuidholland.

.

Don't mix Westland up with Westflyland, Southflyland and the Seven Islands, which remained Frisian territory and belonged to the Frisian Seven Seelanden. Besides it is said, that Westland lies opposite the tinlondum, which is to be identified as Cornwall and Dartmoor. s. Wikipedia: The Dartmoor tin mining industry is thought to have originated in pre-Roman times,[1] and continued right through to the 20th century.That is why I refer to Westland as the coastal area between Sincfal and Seine. While returning home the Frisian butafarar selected people (slaves) at the mouth of the Seine., which means that they had a former stronghold there like the one in Cadiz (Kadik).The Dutch Westland is a new name for the area of the glass houses south of the Hague.

Edited by Knul
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To avoid misunderstandings the best we could do is to use the scans of the original manuscript s. http://rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html. I am preparing a new manuscript text. I was shocked to find many mistakes in the trancription by Ottema, consequently in his translation, consequently in Sandbach's translation, consequently in other translations based on Ottema or Sandbach. This does not mean, that the manuscript text is correct, because that text too contains obvious mistakes, but we have no better.

runskrift = lopend schrift, which is not the same as italic. In runskrift the letters are connected like in handwiting.Runskrift is a faster and more economic way to write texts.

First: here are photos of every page of the OLB manuscript: http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/boek/index.html

Second: I know what is meant with run-script/ 'lopend schrift', but maybe the English word "cursive" is better.

But I assume both you and I learned the same thing during the first classes of primary school, and that is that we learned to write these cursive letters separately, unconnected. After we had mastered that art, we started writing complete words where these cursive letters were connected as they had been designed for in the first place.

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Don't mix Westland up with Westflyland, Southflyland and the Seven Islands, which remained Frisian territory and belonged to the Frisian Seven Seelanden. Besides it is said, that Westland lies opposite the tinlondum, which is to be identified as Cornwall and Dartmoor. s. Wikipedia: The Dartmoor tin mining industry is thought to have originated in pre-Roman times,[1] and continued right through to the 20th century.That is why I refer to Westland as the coastal area between Sincfal and Seine. While returning home the Frisian butafarar selected people (slaves) at the mouth of the Seine., which means that they had a former stronghold there like the one in Cadiz (Kadik).

[OL] To jenst vr vs formêlich Westland thêr hêdon wi Brittanja mith sina tinlâna.

[DU] Te-gen over ons voormalig Westland daar hadden we Brittania met zijn tinlanden

[EN] Opposite our former Westland we had Britain with its tin lands

We discussd this before. Suppose there is this line: "Opposite Denmark we had Norway with its polar ice", would you then think that Denmark was located within the polar circle? No, I would just mean that Norway - with its polar ice - was north of Denmark. Just like Brittain - with its tin lands - was west (of the west coast) of the Netherlands.

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OLB run(ning)-script:

Raster_Runscript.jpg

Tironian notes:

Tironian_notes.jpg

.

Edited by Abramelin
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alhambra3.jpg

alhambra1.jpg

alhambra2.jpg

cijfersOLB.jpg

Comment from dr. Ottema in a letter to L.F. Over de Linden, dated 4-3-1875 (translation):

"For our ciphars we are not indebted to the Arabs, for the simple reason, that they never used such figures as ciphars, and we therefore could not have gotten ours from them."

Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden (translated from letter in Dutch, dated 17-3-1876, from Tresoar collection):

Dear Sir!

I will answer both your questions shortly.

First, where does the story (or statement) come from, that we (the Western peoples) would have borrowed our ciphers from the Arabs?

It is not a story, and not based on any historical fact, but a wild guess, that has been parroted by the gullible crowds for three centuries now. Much was written about that. When scholars asked the question, where our ciphers had originated, they tacitly assumed, that they had to come from abroad; because it was out of the question that the peoples of Middle and Western Europe had invented anything by themselves. Therefore one of them guessed that the Hebrews, another that the Phoenicians, and yet another that the Egyptians would be the inventors of our ciphers. Each argued his opinion with erudition. The ones who claimed it had been the Arabs were most succesful, because the latter were known to use a decimal system. But one forgot, that if we had learned our ciphers from the Arabs, we would also have adopted the shape of those Arabic ciphers. And that's how this guess was accepted as a prevailing truth.

Concerning your other question, what proof there is for my statement, that the figures in the Alhambra decorations were derived from the Fryan script, I can only say this. There is no positive evidence, only a negative one. Namely, they could not have been derived from anything else. Appearantly they are not random phantasy shapes, but deliberate imitations of figures that one has seen somewhere. And where else can they have seen them than in the shapes of the western ciphars?

Who finds this statement somewhat bold, may answer the question differently, and show where else these figures were found.

It would please me to learn from you what rev. Grottendiek will reveil of his research. But always remember, that no-one can measure the spirit of the book, who does not completely understand the language, and can observe and consider all nuances in variety of language form, spelling, and style in all parts that are collected in the book.

With kind greetings

Edited by Otharus
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<skip>

Concerning your other question, what proof there is for my statement, that the figures in the Alhambra decorations were derived from the Fryan script, I can only say this. There is no positive evidence, only a negative one. Namely, they could not have been derived from anything else. Appearantly they are not random phantasy shapes, but deliberate imitations of figures that one has seen somewhere. And where else can they have seen them than in the shapes of the western ciphars?

<skip>

It took me while with Paint, but here is what the Spanish Arabs used to construct their ciphers (deduced from the plate you posted a copy of):

SixCircles.jpg

alhambra2.jpg

They wanted harmony inside the Alhambra, so they used geometric figures like this to construct beautiful ciphers.

Btw: Muslim art is famous for its abstract geometric patterns.

++++

EDIT:

Don't worry about the 5 and 7:

post-18246-0-53474100-1329157331_thumb.j

.

Edited by Abramelin
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[OL] To jenst vr vs formêlich Westland thêr hêdon wi Brittanja mith sina tinlâna.

[DU] Te-gen over ons voormalig Westland daar hadden we Brittania met zijn tinlanden

[EN] Opposite our former Westland we had Britain with its tin lands

We discussd this before. Suppose there is this line: "Opposite Denmark we had Norway with its polar ice", would you then think that Denmark was located within the polar circle? No, I would just mean that Norway - with its polar ice - was north of Denmark. Just like Brittain - with its tin lands - was west (of the west coast) of the Netherlands.

Westland is called former, because it has been lost to the Gols and Franks. The Westland you have in mind stayed Frisian.

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SixCircles.jpg

Compliments, you have been creative.

It nicely shows that the Alhambra version is more complex than the Jol version.

In evolution, complexity increases.

Therefore, if one has evolved out of the other, it makes more sense (IMO) that the Alhambra one was inspired by the Jol-one, and not the other way around.

(Yes, I have thought about the digital 8, out of which all numbers can be made as well, and which is less complex than the Jol, but not all letters can be made out of it, and it's not in a circle.)

Edited by Otharus
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Westland is called former, because it has been lost to the Gols and Franks. The Westland you have in mind stayed Frisian.

No, Westland still exists, and it's part of the province of Zuidholland.

Man, I grew up there, jesus.

The western part of "Magna Frisia" was lost to the Franks and later the Hollanders.

And that western part was: West-Flanders, Zeeland, Zuidholland, Noordholland, and everything up to the Frisian Middle Sea.

Menno, you portray yourself as a skeptic, but why do you gobble up any description of whatever you read in the OLB?

If you believe - like I do - that there were a couple of guys who 'fabricated' some grand alternative history of the Frisians, then you should not nitpick about details: these guys twisted and turned and demolished any ancient myth beyond compare to suit their purpose.

Apparently you are as honest and pure as a new-born baby.

I am not. I do know people lie, I do know how people lie, I do know what words they use to make people believe in them.

Nice letters won't convince me of someone's innocence.

I already know: you lack the necessary fantasy and imagination; not saying you don't have, but what you have is not enough.

But if you want to understand forgers, you will have to give your mind some room to breath and think about things you normally wouldn't dare to think about.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Compliments, you have been creative.

It nicely shows that the Alhambra version is more complex than the Jol version.

In evolution, complexity increases.

Therefore, if one has evolved out of the other, it makes more sense (IMO) that the Alhambra one was inspired by the Jol-one, and not the other way around.

(Yes, I have thought about the digital 8, out of which all numbers can be made as well, and which is less complex than the Jol, but not all letters can be made out of it, and it's not in a circle.)

Whatever you think makes more sense is up to you, but I showed you the geometric drawing these Spanish Muslims used to get to their ciphers. Otharus, they loved to get a feeling of harmony in their art, and they did it by creating the most astonishing abstract art any civilization was ever able to fabricate.

And I can tell you: I am quite familiar with Muslim mosaics and Muslim abstract art.

I tell you something else: without these Muslims from the 13th Caliphate (Spain) and other medieval Muslims from around the Med we Christian Europeans would never have heard of Homer, Plato, Archimedes, Aristoteles, Eratosthenes, Virgil, Ceasar, and so on, and so on... and so on.

These guys were at their best many ages ago, and it is because of them - and no one else - that we now know about the classics... and chemistry... and astronomy....and ancient Egypt, and mathematics ... and... and.. and.

Many Muslim scientists and troubadours were advisers to European kings and Popes.

And inventing a new and improved set of ciphers would have been peanuts for them. These people - back then - loved to live and feel in harmony with Allah, and abstract art was their way to express that harmony.

But do not forget: in medieval Spain - before Columbus' time - Jews, Christians and Muslims all stuck there heads together and created the most astonishing works or art, poetry, and scientific documents (including a zillion translations of the works of ancient writers).

Otharus, you should inform yourself about what medieval Muslim Spain accomplished. I am sure that if they had been able to continue that grand new civilization, we would have landed on the moon centuries ago.

There are times I wished I had lived in those times, really.

Nowatimes it's about nothing but "Allahu Akbar" with fists raised high, and the other side yelling "shoot them mother fkrs".

.......sigh.............

.

Edited by Abramelin
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No, Westland still exists, and it's part of the province of Zuidholland.

Man, I grew up there, jesus.

The western part of "Magna Frisia" was lost to the Franks and later the Hollanders.

And that western part was: West-Flanders, Zeeland, Zuidholland, Noordholland, and everything up to the Frisian Middle Sea.

Menno, you portray yourself as a skeptic, but why do you gobble up any description of whatever you read in the OLB?

If you believe - like I do - that there were a couple of guys who 'fabricated' some grand alternative history of the Frisians, then you should not nitpick about details: these guys twisted and turned and demolished any ancient myth beyond compare to suit their purpose.

Apparently you are as honest and pure as a new-born baby.

I am not. I do know people lie, I do know how people lie, I do know what words they use to make people believe in them.

Nice letters won't convince me of someone's innocence.

I already know: you lack the necessary fantasy and imagination; not saying you don't have, but what you have is not enough.

But if you want to understand forgers, you will have to give your mind some room to breath and think about things you normally wouldn't dare to think about.

.

I lived and worked in Delft. So I know the Dutch Westland very well. However, I think, that you are mislead by your theory that all happened around the Middel se (Leeuwarden) in contradiction to the text of the OLB, which clearly states, that the former Westland has been lost to the Gauls and Franks. The OLB never states, that the Westland has been lost to the Dutch. That happened only after the year 1256.

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Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden (translated from letter in Dutch, dated 17-3-1876, from Tresoar collection):

Dear Sir!

I will answer both your questions shortly.

First, where does the story (or statement) come from, that we (the Western peoples) would have borrowed our ciphers from the Arabs?

It is not a story, and not based on any historical fact, but a wild guess, that has been parroted by the gullible crowds for three centuries now. Much was written about that. When scholars asked the question, where our ciphers had originated, they tacitly assumed, that they had to come from abroad; because it was out of the question that the peoples of Middle and Western Europe had invented anything by themselves. Therefore one of them guessed that the Hebrews, another that the Phoenicians, and yet another that the Egyptians would be the inventors of our ciphers. Each argued his opinion with erudition. The ones who claimed it had been the Arabs were most succesful, because the latter were known to use a decimal system. But one forgot, that if we had learned our ciphers from the Arabs, we would also have adopted the shape of those Arabic ciphers. And that's how this guess was accepted as a prevailing truth.

Concerning your other question, what proof there is for my statement, that the figures in the Alhambra decorations were derived from the Fryan script, I can only say this. There is no positive evidence, only a negative one. Namely, they could not have been derived from anything else. Appearantly they are not random phantasy shapes, but deliberate imitations of figures that one has seen somewhere. And where else can they have seen them than in the shapes of the western ciphars?

Who finds this statement somewhat bold, may answer the question differently, and show where else these figures were found.

It would please me to learn from you what rev. Grottendiek will reveil of his research. But always remember, that no-one can measure the spirit of the book, who does not completely understand the language, and can observe and consider all nuances in variety of language form, spelling, and style in all parts that are collected in the book.

With kind greetings

The so called Arab ciphers came into use during the reign of Charles the Great (ca. 800). Before the Roman ciphers were used.

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The so called Arab ciphers came into use during the reign of Charles the Great (ca. 800). Before the Roman ciphers were used.

You have Frisian sources from before ca. 800 AD in which Roman ciphers are used?

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The OLB never states, that the Westland has been lost to the Dutch. That happened only after the year 1256.

In 1256, Willem II (1228-1256), count of Holland and Zeeland (and king of the 'holy' Roman Empire) tried to conquer Westfriesland (now part of North-Holland).

His forefather, count Floris II (ca.1085-1120) ca. 1100 changed his title from 'comes de Frisia' into 'comes de Hollant'.

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Westland is called former, because it has been lost to the Gols and Franks. The Westland you have in mind stayed Frisian.

I agree with Knul.

In the fragment, the author explains how big their territory once was (before the bad times came).

If the Frisian Middelsea was ment (as Abe insists), Westergo and Westfriesland would not have been part of the original territory.

Westfriesland was not lost until the late 13th century AD.

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