[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

A book from 1699:

The History of the works of the learned, or An impartial account of books lately printed in all parts of Europe : with a particular relation of the state of learning in each country / 1699

http://www.archive.org/details/historyofworksof01londuoft

A book of almost 800 pages, and I haven't found the name of the writer yet, lol.

He appears to criticize/comment on Suffridus Petrus' book about Frisian history:

Here's part:

(...)

Then he attacks the Opinion of those who say, the Frisons are

descended from Grunius the Trojan, the Builder of Groningen, and

therefore writ them Phrysii, as nearer the Phryges their Progeni-

tors, and at last tells us his own Sentiments, that Freso, the Foun-

der of their Nation, with his Brethren Saxo and Bruno, came from

an Indian Province called Benedicta Fresia ; where having served

under Alexander the Great, and not daring to stay in the Coun-

try after his Death took shipping with what they could bring

off, and landing in this Country, called it Fresia, after his own

Name.

This he insists upon at large in this Third Book, and thinks it the

more probable, because the Story of Saxo, the Founder of the

Saxon Nation, agrees with it. He says all Authors, Crantzius ex-

cepted, agree. That the Saxons were some Remains of the Mace-

donian Army ; and that before they came into Germany, they

were called Macedonians ; for this he quotes the German Chro-

nicle, printed at Mentz, in 1482. the Annals of Freezland, and

others.

His next Proof for this is ancient Rhimes, Constant Tradition,

and the Universal Opinion of the Frisons, who have entertained it

from Father to Son successively, and conveyd it to one another by

Rhimes, a Custom, says he, which the most prudent Nations have

made use of, as the readiest Preservative against Oblivion. He tells

us moreover, that all the Freezland. Historians he hath seen, give

their Suffrage this way.

As a further Proof of this, he alledges, That the Frisons were

constantly great Lovers of Learning, and therefore could easily pre-

serve their Origin and Antiquities from Oblivion. He says also, that

Freso, their Founder, was versed in all the Learning of the Greeks,

and erected a sort of Academies in many places, where Youth were

instructed in Learning, and the Art of War ; and that he erected

one particularly at Stavren, near Stavos Temple, and placed a great

Library in the Temple it self.

The Works of the LEARNED,

In the next place, he acquaints us, that both Frison and Saxon

Historians agree as to Saxo, and that the People of Freezland,

Saxony and Brunswick had formerly one and the same Language,

and form of Government.

Then he gives us an Account of the Arms of the Saxons and

Frisons, from the Heralds Books, and says, that when Friso had

the Defence of the German Ocean committed to his Charge, his

Arms were in a blue Field, three Silver Bars, oblique from the right

to the left, betwixt them 7 red Leaves of a Water Rose, 4 betwixt

the Dexter and the middle Bar, and 3 betwixt that and the Sinister.

These, says our Author, were the most ancient Arms of the Frisons,

and prove that they were used by their Princes, Dukes and Kings,

and that the 7 Leaves signified 7 Islands, into which Freezland was

formerly divided. Saxos Coat, he tells us, was also a blew Field,

divided in the middle by a cross Line, from the right to the left, under

the same, at the dexter Point, there was a Lion, and at the sinister

Point a Dragon, their Heads almost joined, and looking upon one

another, with a pleasant Aspect. In the upper part there was an

Eagle flying with expanded Wings, looking upon them both. In this

place, he confutes Crantzius, who says, that those are but New

Bearings, and that Wittekind, Duke of Saxony, who was overcome by

Charlemagne, carried in his Ensigns a black Colt, but when he turnd

Christian, changed it into a white one. He proves from Methodius,

who is many Centuries elder than Whittikindus, that the Saxons in

his time impressed a Lion upon their Coin. He observes, that

Wittikindus was not King of the Saxons, but one of those twelve

Princes (or Great Men) that governed Saxony by turns ; and there-

fore bore the Arms of the Country, and not his own. He also quotes

Wittikind the Monk, who in his 1st Book of Hatthagar, D. of Saxony,

says, that when he encouraged his Men to Battle, he took up the

Standard or Ensign (which they account Sacred) impressed with

a Lion and Dragon, and an Eagle hovering over them, by which he

would represent Fortitude and Prudence, and their Efficacy, and ex-

press constancy of Mind by motion of the Body.

In the rest of his Book he enquires after the Indian Fresia, and

thinks it to be the Pharrasii mentioned by Curtius, beyond the Ganges.

He pretends to trace Fresos Genealogy, as far as Shem, one of Noahs

Sons, and gives an Account of the Travels of Freso and his Bre-

thren, c. all which is submitted to the Readers Censure, it being ap-

plicable to Antiquaries better than to any other fort of Men.

.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

EL DESCUBRIMIENTO DE CHILE POR LOS FRISIOS

THE DISCOVERY OF CHILE by the Frisians

http://www.aforteanosla.com.ar/afla/articulos%20arqueo/frisios%20en%20chile.htm

http://translate.google.nl/translate?hl=nl&sl=es&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aforteanosla.com.ar%2Fafla%2Farticulos%2520arqueo%2Ffrisios%2520en%2520chile.htm

===

El descubrimiento de Chile por los frisios en el siglo XI - José Toribio Medina/1910

http://books.google.nl/books/about/El_descubrimiento_de_Chile_por_los_frisi.html?id=V1D4pwAACAAJ&redir_esc=y

.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Abramelin

[Knul]

What is the distance of a ketting - chain ?

[p. 176] As wi nw arhalf ketting fon-ra of wêre, bigoston tha Phonisiar to skiata. - Toenwe nu ander half ketting (kabelslengte) van hen af waren, begonnen dePheniciers te schieten - When we were at a cable and a half distance from them the Phonisiar began to shoot. Correct translation: a chain and a half

ketting = 20 meters, 1 1/2 ketting is 30 meters.

The use of ketting for distance dates back to 1620 (see below) and is a good proof, that the OLB can not be older.

chain

20.12 m

10 chains = 1 furlong

100 links = 1 chain

22 yards = 1 chain

A chain is the length of a cricket pitch. It has been used since 1620. Its correct name is a Gunter's chain or surveyor's chain, since it was invented by the Rev. Edmund Gunter (1581-1626), a professor of astronomy at Gresham College, London. There is a different chain called the Ramsden's chain. A correspondent says "The whole of the United States was measured and mapped using the Gunters Chain and his chain still applies to all title plans in use today. For this reason all city blocks, roads and avenues are multiples of the chain. Towns were laid out at 6 miles square or 36 sq miles. Early farms were sold to would-be farmers as lots of 640 acres or 1 sq mile. Interestingly enough the Geodetic coastal survey and ordnance surveys of the entire US are metric." Another correspondent says "Many of the older people in Jamaica use chains as a measure of distance. 'The shop is about 5 chains down the road' for example. The only other useage I have ever encountered is on railways, where the radius of curvature of a line used to be measured in chains."

Edited February 27, 2012 by Knul

[Otharus]

I often wonder if you have ever read the OLB PROPERLY.

Your fear of it may have troubled your view.

I apologise for this.

We all read the book with different eyes and it inspires us in different ways.

That is at least already one similarity with religious texts, and sure, there are many more.

There is truth in what Abe said.

OLB, if it would go viral, can inspire crowds into bad as well as good things.

In it I read more aversion against 'priests and princes', than against yellow and black people.

I have tried to focus on the most positive (IMO) sides of it.

(I never liked the Finda was ... and Lyda was ... part that follows the 'creation myth'.)

I will think better before I post again.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Goodmorning! It's ok Otharus.

I think my comparison with THE Bible set you and Knul on the wrong footing, lol.

Books are not 'dangerous', it's aways what people get out of reading those books and do with the ideas they spin around their 'understanding' of what they read that is often more dangerous.

.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I am not sure if this has already been posted, but here is Suffridus Petrus' original book from 1590:

De Frisiorum antiquitate et origine libri tres : in quibus non modo eius gentis propriae, sed & communes Germaniae totius Antiquitates multae, hactenus incognitae, produntur ; & obscuri veterum scriptorum loci plurimi illustrantur .- Suffridus Petri, 1590

http://books.google.nl/books?id=QkZbAAAAQAAJ&pg=PT2&dq=Benedicta+Fresia&hl=nl&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q=Benedicta%20Fresia&f=false

Alas, only for those who read Latin.

[Abramelin]

http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/arts/1952/e.h.waterbolk/Waterbolk.PDF

SUMMARY:

This study deals with the Frisian historians of the l6th and 17th

centuries. Part I, in three chapters, contains a description of the

causes which led them to historical reflection; part II, also in three

chapters, dealing with the same period and persons as the three

chapters of part I, considers the development of a historical sense

and historical criticism.

It was after 1524 in particular that many took to writing, when

party-hatred was subsiding. They were defining their attitude to

the absolutism of Charles V. In East-Friesland, on the other hand,

it was humanism that led to historical reflection.

Humanism strengthened national unity. Although this sense of

unity existed in the Middle Ages also, humanistic nationalism was

more conscious and was distinguished by all sorts of gradations.

The Greater-Frisia idea of race-consciousness is subordinated to a

wider Germanic consciousnessin lesser degree than in Holland and

Zeeland. The distinctive traits of the Frisians, particularly of their

language, are fully emphasized. It is not until the end of the l7th

century that the Greater-Frisian sense of unity declined, and the

bond with the Netherlands grew stronger.

From this love of native things arose a sense of obligation to

study them and also their past history. This produced all kinds

of new types of historical writing.

Typical of this new nationalism is the lack of restraint with which

it is declared, manifested, for instance, in the desire for glory. To

this is unquestionably due the peculiar variety of wild and fictitious

history, seen most fully displayed in the so-called Chronicle of

Ocko Scharlensis. There are indications that the Chronicle is of

humanistic origin and a deliberate fiction. This was not unusual,

but while in Holland proper, for example, the type was stifled at

birth, this did not happen in Friesland. National pride and the

aristocratic character of Ocko's story may account for this. There

are points which suggest that the Chronicle is voicing the opinions

of a group of nobility suffering from a sense of neglect following

the emancipation of the towns. The first official historiographer

of Friesland, Suffridus Petrus, shares this aristocratic point of

view, in contrast to Ubbo Emmius, the greatest of Frisian historians,

who stresses the importance of the peasantry and is pleading for

municipal privileges.

In the light of these contrasts the relations of the States of

Friesland to Emmius, of Stadtholder Willem Lodewijk to Emmius

and Furmerius, Suffridus' successsor, and of the municipality of

Leeuwarden both to Emmius and to the official historiographers

Winsemius and Gabbema are treated in some detail.

It is next demonstrated that the fictitious histories are not

influenced by the Roman-Catholic Counter-Reformation, as has

sometimes been maintained.

In the third chapter it is shown how in all districts of Frisia,

during the latter half of the 16th century, the absolutist tendency

came into conflict with the tradition of privileges. People turned

in particular to the past to find legal justification for resistance to

absolute rulers, such as Philip II, the Cirksena's, or the town of

Groningen.

The practice of writing history thus achieves a new dignity

hitherto unknown in Friesland. The status of the historiographer

rises because the historian has a social function. Everywhere this

fact is acknowledged by governing authorities, as is shown by the

appointment of official historiographers about 1600. The historian

is also in a position to advise the politician in concrete difficulties.

He tries to find out how people used to act in a given situation,

in order to discover rules for action which will have universal

validity. This drives Winsemius into platitudes; but Emmius has

the insight to perceive that there is a relationship between human

psychology and external circumstances.

Not only the politician but also the reader in general must profit

by history. Thus, it is often possible to detect a moralizing tendency,

while the point of view of orthodox Christianity can also be

observed in the narrative.

Nothing was allowed to hamper the search for truth in order to

attain all these objects. For that reason Emmius advocates freedom

of criticism and free admittance to archives. He fiercely lashes

opponents whom he thinks to be suppriming the truth. His violence

is, indeed, not unconnected with the fact that the writing of history

and politics are closely interconnected.

From the Twelve Years' Truce onwards, the aggressive tone in

historical writing becomes less loud. The theocratic conception of

history is gaining ground. Schotanus is a striking example of this.

There are many signs that humanistic inspiration is on the wane.

Writers are now addressing a different audience. Creative force

fades. Historiography broadly based upon tribal relationship, the

humanistic starting-point and aim, is abandoned. Not until the 19th

century will Romanticism rekindle interest in Frisian past.

About 1500 a new age is in evidence. The Frisian writers are

aware of this and attest the fact. New material rouses interest,

and the treatment of it must satisfy new requirements. A more

critical attitude towards sources can be discerned. Doubt is beginning

to be felt in regard to the vast number of stories about

the remote Frisian past. There is a greater desire for facts as

distinct from tradition.

Contact with classical authors leads to still greater scepticism.

The fact that the writer is conscious of an audience also helps to

advance historical criticism. He seeks to guard himself against

detractors. The interest in geography also has a particularly

stimulating effect upon the critical sense of our writers. Personal

observation comes to be highly esteemed, while there is an

awareness of impending change. A rational, causal method of

explaining phenomena is developing. The number of available

documents increases; charters are more frequently consulted; the

idea of the "historical record" acquires a wider sense.

The Chronicle of Ocko may be regarded as a reaction against

humanistic scepticism. Suffridus Petrus, of great renown in his

day, appears as a defender of the Chronicle. He opposes the

fastidious humanists, who turn up their noses at everything that

the Middle Ages, the "aetas barbara", have achieved. As a collector

of Frisian historical documents and as editor of medieval chronicles,

Suffridus Petrus is a man of great merit. For him the classics are

no longer sacrosanct; he believes implicitly in the native Frisian

writers and in Frisian tradition. Later writers of fictitious histories,

such as Furmerius and Winsemius, no longer show quite the

same confidence in Ocko's version of history: several turn away

from it altogether.

In the fourth quarter of the l7th century the uncritical type of

history emerges again, and once more for reasons not unconnected

with the spirit of the age.

Frisian historiography meanwhile reached its zenith about 1600,

especially in Ubbo Emmius. Emmius in Groningen keeps closer

than Dousa in Leiden to the humanistic requirements in the aesthetic

of historical narrative, though he will not sacrifice clarity and

accuracy to form. But like Dousa, Emmius stands out as the

adversary of mythography. His view is that history must be based

on actual documents and he firmly turns his back upon native

writing and tradition. In treating his sources, he discriminates

consistently between them according to the date of their composition

and inquires into the attitude of their writer, Events must

fit the framework of their age; separate periods are to be

distinguished. Political changes are attended by new cultural

standards; change is gradual and brought about by natural causes.

Many other writers are beginning to realise the same thing.

Emmius is a pioneer in the study of charters. Furmerius too is

important as a student of charters, medieval, authentic records, and

as a collector. Owing to his use of the "leges barbarorum" Siccama

comes to rewrite social history, if only in his notes to an edition

of the text.

Schotanus' theocratic and Calvinist view of history yields profit

as well as loss. His outlook changes considerably, but his criticism

becomes less "enlightened", though he retains much of the outlook

of his predecessors. This is also true of Gabbema, whose critical

acumen is again somewhat dulled. But as collectors these two

writers have bequeathed us a notable legacy, Schotanus in the

Tablinum, printed at the end of his "Geschiedenissen", Gabbema

in his editions of letters. Later generations will indeed be grateful

to them.

.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Abramelin

[Knul]

I am not sure if this has already been posted, but here is Suffridus Petrus' original book from 1590:

De Frisiorum antiquitate et origine libri tres : in quibus non modo eius gentis propriae, sed & communes Germaniae totius Antiquitates multae, hactenus incognitae, produntur ; & obscuri veterum scriptorum loci plurimi illustrantur .- Suffridus Petri, 1590

http://books.google....0Fresia&f=false

Alas, only for those who read Latin.

The full text you can find here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vf47AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=nl&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false .

[Abramelin]

The full text you can find here: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=vf47AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=nl&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false .

That is exactly the same book, only in black-and-white, lol.

[Abramelin]

I hope you read that: "In Mainz where there also was an attestable Frisian colony". That, in connection with me saying "Gosa Makonta" was noone else but "Goswinus Magontinensis" or "Goswinus from Mainz", and you saying that Mainz was too far away from Texel.

.

By accident (I was busy for another thread) I found this:

Religion and Literature in Western England, 600-800 (Cambridge Studies in Anglo-Saxon England)

A review:

In the sixth and seventh centuries pagan peoples who were known as Hwicce and Magonsaetan arrived from unknown parts of Europe and settled the frontierland of the "Welsh Marches" from Warwickshire as far as the Welsh kingdoms west of Offa's Dyke & perhaps also along the Wye Valley. They retained their own kings, aristocracy and independent monasteries up until the eighth century. Dr. Patrick Simms-Williams, professor of Celtic Studies at Abersytwyth University focusses mainly on the literary documents, and on some of the archaeology, excluding Anglian-Mercian sculptures; & perhaps not fully exploring other hypotheses of non-Saxon, non-Celtic provenance. These 2 tribes were able to meld with the Dobunni and other Celtic tribes, yet they were not Celts.

Simms-Williams describes the Christianising of the Hwicce or Wigge peoples (whose name I personally interpret as being the "warriors"). He reviews the origins of diocesan Worcester and Hereford, and the very early flowering of monasticism among the Hwicce and Magonsaetan. Could there be some link with Maguntium - Mainz? and/or other displaced tribes who were potentially not Anglo-Saxon but perhaps Jutish-related. The Dark Age history of this part of Britain went sadly unrecorded by Bede, Gildas and others. We know little of the identity of these noble elites and king-lines and nothing of their provenance. Their absorption into the Anglo-Saxon heptarchies; was not total, even after the 800's.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Religion-Literature-Western-Cambridge-Anglo-Saxon/dp/0521673429/ref=cm_rdp_product

http://books.google.nl/books/about/Religion_and_Literature_in_Western_Engla.html?id=xksjPqoqVbcC&redir_esc=y

=

During the 7th century AD the River Severn became a boundary between the lands of two rival tribes. These were the Magonsaetan, who occupied the area to the south of the river, and the Wroecensaetan (people of the Wrekin), who lived to the north of the river. These boundaries have remained the same until today. They now divide regions of church authority; i.e. the dioceses of Lichfield and Hereford. The remains of the Roman town of Wroxeter can be seen here with the Wrekin in the background.

http://www.secretshropshire.org.uk/content/Learn/Severn/DefenceComm.asp

=

Magonset (Westerna / Herefordshire Saxons)

The British territory of Pengwern was conquered by Oswiu of Northumbria in 656, while he was overlord of the Mercians. Western Pengwern was then settled by Saxon groups who probably migrated northwards from the territory of the West Saxons and the Hwicce, although there is a possibility that some of them were already in the area, perhaps as allies of Pengwern.

They made the most of the sudden power gap to found small kingdoms. The first was based on modern Wroxeter (Roman Viroconium, which evolved into British Caer Guricon), and the new arrivals called themselves Wrocenset based on that name. The second was in modern Kenchester, just west of Hereford in Herefordshire (Roman Magnis), which was probably adapted as Caer Magnis by the Romano-British and bastardised as Magon by the Saxons: Magonset (or Magonsæte) means settlers of Magon. The Magonset kingdom also seems to have been known by several names, including Westerna, or Western Hecani.

The kingdoms were small, but they were not obscure, at least to the people of the time, although few records have survived to describe them. Certainly nothing seems to have been recorded about the Magonset after circa 680, apart from the names of its kings, and even that detail has been lost for the Wroconset. By the beginning of the eighth century, the Anglian Mercians had gained overall control of the territory of the Magonset and Wroconset. It is perhaps around this time that the name Westerna was used for the Magonset territory by the Mercians, perhaps to describe the border region with Powys - the Anglian word for borderlands, 'mercna' was already in use for Mercia itself, and its borders did not yet reach as far as Powys.

http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsBritain/EnglandMagonset.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magons%C3%A6te

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Edited February 28, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

And just when I thought this thread couldn't get any better...

...it goes right ahead and does.

For the first time in years... I am the only one left who posts here for a day.

No Alewyn, no Puzz, no Otharus, no Van Gorp, no Cormac, no Swede, not you, no one but me.

Well, at some point the well runs dry.

I think we have by now squeezed out every posssible source to the last drop.

The only thing wanting is a new discovery of an ancient manuscript written in the same script the OLB is written in.

I will bet that will never happen.

Heh, unless it's by my hand. And then it will be found in some monastery in Poland, the country where those ancient Prussians, or as I once called them, "Phruisians" once lived.

.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Abramelin

[lilthor]

For the first time in years... I am the only one left who posts here for a day.

No Alewyn, no Puzz, no Otharus, no Van Gorp, no Cormac, no Swede, not you, no one but me.

Well, at some point the well runs dry.

I think we have by now squeezed out every posssible source to the last drop.

The only thing wanting is a new discovery of an ancient manuscript written in the same script the OLB is written in.

I will bet that will never happen.

Heh, unless it's by my hand. And then it will be found in some monastery in Poland, the country where those ancient Prussians, or as I once called them, "Phruisians" once lived.

.

Actually, I was going to comment on the interesting nature of your post #10507 (also to bump the thread!), but you got there first.

I must admit, after all these pages and many swings back and forth on whether the OLB is genuine, I'm as clueless as ever. Great reading though!

I do believe some answers are out there. Maybe they rest at the bottom of the Wadden Sea. Undersea exploration is just now starting to get very interesting, so hopefully many answers will come from the North Sea area. It wouldn't take too many key artifacts to validate some portions of the OLB, it seems.

[lilthor]

One thing this thread has quite conclusively revealed:

Frisian girls are damn good-looking.

[lilthor]

Sorry for that digression about Frisian girls.

Back to it then:

Abe it is your posts #10501 and #10507 that, for me, represent the extremes which tend to make my head spin a little.

On the one hand we have a culture that had an incredibly strong oral tradition of passing their history and mores down through the generations. Reading this, it seems possible such stories just might survive intact over millenia.

On the other hand, we see politically-motivated "scholars" who aren't too shy to make stuff up to further some agenda. Reading this, it seems possible the entire OLB is a bunch of nationalistic hooey.

I still want to dig to the bottom of de Burcht Leiden.

[Abramelin]

One thing this thread has quite conclusively revealed:

Frisian girls are damn good-looking.

If you prefer long, tall blonds, then yeah.

One of my exes looked like that, and she moved to the province of Groningen, and that's ex-Frisian territory.

She was born and bred in The Hague, though.

[Abramelin]

Sorry for that digression about Frisian girls.

Back to it then:

Abe it is your posts #10501 and #10507 that, for me, represent the extremes which tend to make my head spin a little.

On the one hand we have a culture that had an incredibly strong oral tradition of passing their history and mores down through the generations. Reading this, it seems possible such stories just might survive intact over millenia.

On the other hand, we see politically-motivated "scholars" who aren't too shy to make stuff up to further some agenda. Reading this, it seems possible the entire OLB is a bunch of nationalistic hooey.

I still want to dig to the bottom of de Burcht Leiden.

You bring up a couple of interesting things.

To start with the last: that burght in Leiden dates from no earlier than maybe the 10th century AD.

It's not anything prehistoric.

=

That post of mine you pointed at is about why Frisians were motivated to concoct an ancient ancestry.

It was quite common back then: we are the descendants of the sons of Noah, we fought alongside with the Trojans against the Greeks, and so on.

=

And the "oral" tradition you talk about: in times past people didn't read much or anything at all, they just listened to those who did. And from those who told them stories of what they had read, these listeners to their stories in their turn fabricated their own myths.

[lilthor]

You bring up a couple of interesting things.

To start with the last: that burght in Leiden dates from no earlier than maybe the 10th century AD.

It's not anything prehistoric.

=

That post of mine you pointed at is about why Frisians were motivated to concoct an ancient ancestry.

It was quite common back then: we are the descendants of the sons of Noah, we fought alongside with the Trojans against the Greeks, and so on.

=

And the "oral" tradition you talk about: in times past people didn't read much or anything at all, they just listened to those who did. And from those who told them stories of what they had read, these listeners to their stories in their turn fabricated their own myths.

Yes, I know the mounds themselves date only to the 10th century. My theory (and it's only just that, pulled from a dark place) is this:

Those mound builders likely would not have built on perfectly virgin ground. Something would have been at those sites previously since they were probably at the center of settlements going back to deep antiquity.

What was there, at those exact places, before the mounds? I want to believe that maybe even citadels were there; that would be cool.

Who knows, maybe the mounds have served to protect cultural remnants of prehistory from over 2000+ years of intervening weather and human progress.

If you prefer long, tall blonds, then yeah

*nevermind*

Edited February 29, 2012 by lilthor

[Abramelin]

Those artificial hills can indeed be quite old:

In the Dutch province of Friesland, an artificial dwelling hill is called terp (plural terpen). Terp means "village" in Old Frisian and is cognate with English thorp, Danish torp, German Dorf, modern West Frisian doarp and Dutch dorp. The better word for these mounds would therefore be wierde or Wurt, but terp has become the predominant term.

Historical Frisian settlements were built on artificial terpen up to 15 m height to be safe from the floods in periods of rising sea levels. The first terp-building period dates from 500 BC, the second from 200 BC to 50 BC. In the mid 3rd century, the rise of sea level was so dramatic that the clay district was deserted, and settlers returned only around AD 400. A third terp-building period dates from AD 700 (Old Frisian times). This ended with the coming of the dike somewhere around 1200. During the 18th and 19th centuries, many terps were destroyed to use the fertile soil they contained to fertilize farm fields. Terpen were usually well fertilized by the decay of the rubbish and personal waste deposited by their inhabitants during centuries. The largest terp, seen on the picture to the right, is still preserved.

In the Dutch province of Groningen an artificial dwelling hill is referred to as wierde (plural wierden). Like in Friesland the first wierde-building occurred 500 BC or maybe earlier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_dwelling_hill

But the one in Leiden, on which that burcht stands, is not that old:

Leiden formed on an artificial hill (today called the Burcht van Leiden) at the confluence of the rivers Oude and Nieuwe Rijn (Old and New Rhine). In the oldest reference to this, from circa 860, the settlement was called Leithon. The landlord of Leiden, situated in a stronghold on the hill, was initially subject to the Bishop of Utrecht but around 1100 the burgraves became subject to the county of Holland. This county got its name in 1101 from a domain near the stronghold: Holtland or Holland.

Leiden was sacked in 1047 by Emperor Henry III. Early 13th century, Ada, Countess of Holland took refuge here when she was fighting in a civil war against her uncle, William I, Count of Holland. He besieged the stronghold and captured Ada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leiden

As ar as I know they have dug in the hill but didn't find anything of the age of the terpen in Friesland and Groningen.

[Abramelin]

It may have been the attraction of trade, Christian conviction, or the simple quest, but according to Adam of Bremen, writing about 1070 AD, regular troops of Netherlanders set off from the Zwin and sailed first to Scotland before touching at Iceland, Greenland and ultimately America.

[xxxiii] These seafaring visits include, in their retelling, a fair amount of fantastic happenings (eg, giants, the discovery of gold, fortified cities and the like) which might be interpreted as later additions or a medieval copywriter’s embellishments. Since little archaeological record exists to substantiate these claims, they remain a tantalizing hint of direct expeditions to the New World before Columbus from the Low Countries.[xxxiv]

-

[xxxiii] For Adam of Bremen in modern translation please see Francis J. Tschan, (trans. & ed.), History of the archbishops of Hamburg-Bremen, (New York: Columbia University Press, 2002). Adam of Bremen calls these Netherlanders “Frisians” since at that time Robert of Frisia was Count of Flanders (1071-1093). For the only detailed discussion of Netherlanders sailing for America I am aware of in a modern tongue please see Charles Van den Bergh, “Nederlands Aanspraak op de Ontdekking van Amerika voor Columbus”, in Bijdragen voor Vaderlandsche Geschiednis en Oudheidkunde Verzameld en Uitgegeven door Is. An. Nijhoff, VII (1850), pp.23-33.

[xxxiv] See Martinus Hamconius, writing before 1620, who claims that Netherlanders reached the mines of Mexico and settled Chile in Charles Van den Bergh, “Nederlands Aanspraak", op.cit., pp.30-33.

http://flemishamerican.blogspot.com/2009/06/first-flemings-in-america-part-one.html

[Otharus]

I think we have by now squeezed out every posssible source to the last drop.

I don't agree.

Even for the online sources alone, that is not true.

But offline there's plenty of juicy sources left.

Just finished reading the well-written and interesting "Het geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" ("the secret of the OLB"; not available online) by dr. M. de Jong Hzn (1927).

Bought two new books today:

- "Genootschapscultuur in Friesland ~ Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002; #82 of "De Vrije Fries")

- a second copy of "De Gemaskerde God" (2004) by G. Th. Jensma (I made many notes in my first copy, but want to re-read with fresh look)

Will be busy studying offline, and aim at publishing something - when I'm ready - on paper.

But if something really interesting happens here, I'll be around.

[Abramelin]

I don't agree.

Even for the online sources alone, that is not true.

But offline there's plenty of juicy sources left.

Just finished reading the well-written and interesting "Het geheim van het Oera-Linda-Boek" ("the secret of the OLB"; not available online) by dr. M. de Jong Hzn (1927).

Bought two new books today:

- "Genootschapscultuur in Friesland ~ Het Fries Genootschap 1827-2002" (2002; #82 of "De Vrije Fries")

- a second copy of "De Gemaskerde God" (2004) by G. Th. Jensma (I made many notes in my first copy, but want to re-read with fresh look)

Will be busy studying offline, and aim at publishing something - when I'm ready - on paper.

But if something really interesting happens here, I'll be around.

OK, I just thought people had finally run out of steam, lol.

I am looking forward to read what you learned.

[Abramelin]

Menno, you once posted on your website that the OLB "Middle Sea ("middel-se") was the former Zuiderzee (the present IJselmeer).

But now I read on your website that this Middle Sea is the North Sea ("Noordzee"):

"Ten oosten paalden we tot het uiteinde van de Oostzee, en ten westen aan de Middellandse [69] zee (Noordzee)"

http://rodinbook.nl/vertalingmodern.html

What made you change your mind? I know I once posted an image from a German website about the OLB that showed an image of Doggerland (the once dry bed of the North Sea) with a lake near England, west of the Dogger Bank, and that lake was called "Mittelsee":

http://www.erdexpansion.de/atlantis.htm

I know I have been repeating ad nauseum that the OLB Middle Sea was nothing but the estuary that split the province of Friesland in half up to the 13th century, the Frisian "Middelzee":

But although I may never have said it, I will it say now: the former Zuiderzee indeed lay smack in the middle of the medieval Frisian territory ("Magna Frisia", or "Magna Frisionum" or whatever it was called in Latin). The medieval Frisian territory - before the wars with the Franks and later the counts of Holland - ranged from Flanders to Denmark.

(Click to enlarge)

I have also said many times that the OLB "Kadik" was the nothing but the coastal town of Katwijk, a town that is called "Kattik"" or "Kaddik" by it's inhabitants, even up to now, and it may once have been "Lugdunum Batavorum" or simply "Lugdunum" because the "Batavorum" part of the name was added much later by those 'evil' Hollanders, lol.

Now look at this picture: it's a 17th century image of the Lugdunum harbour (click to enlarge):

You see those pillars at the entrance of the harbour?

If the Middle Sea was the Zuiderzee, and Kadik was Katwijk (or Cadiz), then those pillars could be Hercules' Pillars.

I know you will never agree, but any of the socalled 'suspects' of creating the OLB had more than enough imagination to use all these ancient images and texts to fabricate something that would confuse and irritate people for the next 150 years.

Whoever created the OLB, he (or they) really have managed to earn my appeciation for what they created.

It's equal to the Voynich Manuscript. But... at least scientists proved that the Voynich Manuscript dated from late medieval times.

.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Abramelin

[Knul]

I have also said many times that the OLB "Kadik" was the nothing but the coastal town of Katwijk, a town that is called "Kattik"" or "Kaddik" by it's inhabitants, even up to now, and it may once have been "Lugdunum Batavorum" or simply "Lugdunum" because the "Batavorum" part of the name was added much later by those 'evil' Hollanders, lol.

Now look at this picture: it's a 17th century image of the Lugdunum harbour (click to enlarge):

You see those pillars at the entrance of the harbour?

If the Middle Sea was the Zuiderzee, and Kadik was Katwijk (or Cadiz), then those pillars could be Hercules' Pillars.

I know you will never agree, but any of the socalled 'suspects' of creating the OLB had more than enough imagination to use all these ancient images and texts to fabricate something that would confuse and irritate people for the next 150 years.

Whoever created the OLB, he (or they) really have managed to earn my appeciation for what they created.

It's equal to the Voynich Manuscript. But... at least scientists proved that the Voynich Manuscript dated from late medieval times.

.

We discussed this before. I left the idea about the Middelzee = Zuiderzee, when I found, that in the OLB only the Middelzee = Mediterranean Sea is meant.

By the way I have good news about the Waraburch and Aldega. I identified Aldega as Hoorn, Jensma as Enkhuizen.

However. there has existed an other place called Horn close to Andijk. Probably this place has disappeared in the Zuiderzee, so they built a new place Hoorn on a safer place at some distance from the Zuiderzee like happened in the case of Old Naarden - Naarden. But again the new place Hoorn was threatened by the Zuiderzee, when the Hoornse Hop was formed as a result of a flood. The Aldergamude indeed is at Enkhuizen at the Oude Gouw gates.

Look on Google Maps for Andijk, Hornpad 7 and see the ringdik of the former Waraburch, which can be reached from Medeasblik along the sea dyke in 3 hours (15 km). The distance is 3 poles (3x5 km) from Medeasblik. The Waraburch is a quarter of an hour (ca. 1,2 km) from Horn.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Knul

[bom shankra]

wow, a 700 page thread, yeah but its un-memorable at best, i read up to page 30 at least (and then skim read), but please bring it to a conclusion - inoccent seekers are getting entangled in this quagmire - its not that interesting really....

Edited March 2, 2012 by shanka boom

[Abramelin]

wow, a 700 page thread, yeah but its un memroble at best, i read up to page 30 at least, but please bring it to a conclusion - inoccent seekers are getting entangled in this quagmirew - its not that interesting really....

Well, if it's not that interesting then you better go read other threads, right?

There are more than enough threads about Atlantis and aliens intervening in ancient cultures and pyramids.

Maybe more to your liking?