[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Knul]

In the OLB kad is used for both quay and coast (kadhemar).

[cormac mac airt]

If it's an authentic 13th century manuscript (possibly a copy of something older), we will obviously still not know if all information in it is factual.

And that's just it. If it's an authentic 13th century manuscript then that doesn't make it authentic to the earlier claims of the OLB.

cormac

[Abramelin]

In the OLB kad is used for both quay and coast (kadhemar).

We all know, but that wasn't the point.

[Abramelin]

And that's just it. If it's an authentic 13th century manuscript then that doesn't make it authentic to the earlier claims of the OLB.

cormac

If anything, it could be a 19th century copy of a 13th century document.

But I wouldn't bet on it if I were you.

.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

The 4.2 kiloyear BP aridification event was one of the most severe climatic events of the Holocene period in terms of impact on cultural upheaval.[1] Starting in ≈2200 BC, it probably lasted the entire 22nd century BC. It is very likely to have caused the collapse of the Old Kingdom in Egypt as well as the Akkadian Empire in Mesopotamia.[2] The drought may have also initiated southeastward habitat tracking within the Harappan cultural domain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event

Where's your evidence for this 2160BC drought?

10 years is nothing, this drought may have lasted the WHOLE 22nd century.

Where is your evidence for a great flood in China at 2070BC because we know there was one when Yu was Emperor.

Historical records show that the Old Kingdom in Egypt continued successfully

until 2160 B.C. (4160 cal yr B.P.; Kitchen, 1991) when it quite suddenly collapsed into

anarchy (Bell, 1971). It has been suggested that this was due, in large part, to catastrophic

failure of the annual Nile flood for a period of 30 years. This was apparently

followed by a second, shorter 10-year period of drought starting in 2020 B.C. (4020

cal yr B.P.).

Source: Nile Flow Failure at the End of the Old Kingdom, Egypt:

Strontium Isotopic and Petrologic Evidence Geoarchaeology: An International Journal, Vol. 18, No. 3, 395–402 (2003)

Jean-Daniel Stanley, Michael D. Krom, Robert A. Cliff, and Jamie C. Woodward

Geoarchaeology-Global Change Program, E-206 NMNH, Smithsonian

Institution, Washington, DC 20560

School of Earth Sciences, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, United Kingdom

School of Geography, University of Leeds, Leeds LS2 9JT, United Kingdom

and

Table 2

Preliminary chronological frame of Xia, Shang and Zhou dynasties

Dynasties....................Dates

Xia..........................ca. 2070±1600 BC

Shang........................ca. 1600±1046 BC

Western Zhou.....................1046±771 BC

Source: The use of AMS radiocarbon dating for Xia-Shang-Zhou chronology; Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research B 172 (2000) 724-731

Zhiyu Guo, Kexin Liu, Xiangyang Lu, Hongji Ma, Kun Li, Sixun Yuan, Xiaohong Wu

Institute of Heavy Ion Physics, Peking University, Beijing 100871, People's Republic of China

Department of Archaeology, Peking University, Beijing 100871, People's Republic of China

The drought in AE ending the Old Kingdom and the AMS results for the start of the Xia Dynasty, which Yu the Great was said to have begun, are known and NEITHER falls onto the date of 2193/2194 BC.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Up to when you start about 'gader' I agree with you.

I know the OLB word Kad stands for both coast as well as as quay or stone wall to protect a beach.

The rest of your post is just you forcing yourself to explain Gadir in Old Frisian, but the OLB uses the word "Kadik".

Here, Katwijk harbour with a Kadik, lol:

You'll remember, Katwijk or "Kattek"/"Kattik" in local dialect, or sometimes even "Kaddik" when the bottom of a bottle of booze starts coming into sight..

.

.

Btw, I forgot to mention that Katwijk didn't have a harbour (or 'kadik') until the 19th century:

Net als bijvoorbeeld Scheveningen had Katwijk in de 17e en 18e eeuw geen haven. Er werd dus gevist met boten met een platte bodem die bij hoog water het strand opgetrokken konden worden.

http://www.verreverwanten.nl/afleveringen/serie%202/verre%20verwanten%20van%20hans%20klok%20en%20melita%20van%20der%20mersch/jan%20spaanderman/1884.html

In English:

"For instance, Scheveningen and Katwijk didn't have a harbour in the 17th and 18th century. So they fished using boats with a flat keel which they could pull up on the beach when the tide was high."

.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

If anything, it could be a 19th century copy of a 13th century document.

But I wouldn't bet on it if I were you.

.

And I think we both know, that still makes it irrelevant to the earlier claims.

cormac

[Otharus]

And I think we both know, that still makes it irrelevant to the earlier claims.

But at the very least a treasure for linguists and culture-historians.

[Abramelin]

It never fails to amaze me that I can read most of the OLB text using just what I remember of what I learned about medieval Dutch in highschool.

It were the most boring lessons I ever had to go through, but apparently those boring lessons stuck somehow.

Otharus suggested a day or so ago, that the only reason I am able to read the original (transliterated) text is because I read the translation into Dutch first.

That is partly true: I did read the Dutch translation first, but very soon I noticed I recognized many words, all by myself.

And I hope those who followed this thread know that I posted my very own translations, translations which were a lot more closer to the original than dear ol' Ottema ever managed to come up with.

Reminder: read one of my former posts about "Kadik". Sandbach used Ottema's translation, and so he left out the mentioning of a harbour.

But that harbour was there alright.

Ottema assumed he could leave it out, and thus Sandbach left it out.

If all of this is about true history, then I am able to read a 2600 years old text with nothing but my command of old Dutch I learned in highschool.

If you are willing to believe that, then you will believe anything.

Languages change, and they change fast.

We here didn't live on some far-away isolated island (Iceland), we were invaded by the Romans, Vikings, Spaniards, French, Germans.... and maybe I forgot about a few others.

.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

But at the very least a treasure for linguists and culture-historians.

True, very true.

We all want to know what genius - or geniusses - created the OLB.

[cormac mac airt]

But at the very least a treasure for linguists and culture-historians.

Doesn't exactly validate the historical accuracy of the OLB implied in this thread or Alewyn's book, now does it? THAT'S the whole problem, IMO.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Doesn't exactly validate the historical accuracy of the OLB implied in this thread or Alewyn's book, now does it? THAT'S the whole problem, IMO.

cormac

I think this whole thread, this whole discussion is based on nothing else but people underestimating what people in the 19th century knew about the classics and about their own legends and language.

Just read the list of books a Halbertsma had in his private library; it's fkg unbelievable what the guy had read throughout his life.

And most probably he was not an exception.

Many here Google like crazy and assume that that is the way to get acquainted with ancient literature.

No way hosee.

These 19th century people studied ancient languages, they knew the classics almost by heart, and they were in command of several European languages, including Latin and Greek.

Just read letters written by a Halbertsma to his friends: this guy uses French, Greek, English, Latin, German, Frisian, and even Dutch, lol.

I have never seen any post here by someone who had a command of ALL these languages.

And no doubt someone will ask me to show an example of one of his letters: sorry, but I already did.

.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

I think this whole thread, this whole discussion is based on nothing else but people underestimating what people in the 19th century knew about the classics and about their own legends and language.

Just read the list of books a Halbertsma had in his private library; it's fkg unbelievable what the guy had read throughout his life.

And most probably he was not an exception.

Many here Google like crazy and assume that that is the way to get acquainted with ancient literature.

No way hosee.

These 19th century people studied ancient languages, they knew the classics almost by heart, and they were in command of several European languages, including Latin and Greek.

Just read letters written by a Halbertsma to his friends: this guy uses French, Greek, English, Latin, German, Frisian, and even Dutch, lol.

I have never seen any post here by someone who had a command of ALL these languages.

And no doubt someone will ask me to show an example of one of his letters: sorry, but I already did.

.

Well, I'll leave the linguistic aspects of it to the rest of you, lego-linguistics and all. But after 521 pages here, so far, there's still nothing to show that the OLB is authentic in the sense of historically accurate to the earliest of its claims. Especially to the specific date of 2193/2194. At best, gross generalizations have been used here in an attempt to validate a specific date and quite often with faulty historical facts, as well. That's not properly supporting one's contentions, that's force-fitting a conclusion IMO.

Even if Otharus' idea of it dating to the 13th century were correct, it invalidates the entire premise of this thread.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Well, I'll leave the linguistic aspects of it to the rest of you, lego-linguistics and all. But after 521 pages here, so far, there's still nothing to show that the OLB is authentic in the sense of historically accurate to the earliest of its claims. Especially to the specific date of 2193/2194. At best, gross generalizations have been used here in an attempt to validate a specific date and quite often with faulty historical facts, as well. That's not properly supporting one's contentions, that's force-fitting a conclusion IMO.

Even if Otharus' idea of it dating to the 13th century were correct, it invalidates the entire premise of this thread.

cormac

"that's force-fitting a conclusion IMO."

That was my idea.

"Even if Otharus' idea of it dating to the 13th century were correct, it invalidates the entire premise of this thread."

I do not understand. Please elaborate.

I am asking you for the benefit of the mentally inhibited, and those who had a sip too much.

.

Edited November 20, 2011 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

"that's force-fitting a conclusion IMO."

That was my idea.

"Even if Otharus' idea of it dating to the 13th century were correct, it invalidates the entire premise of this thread."

I do not understand. Please elaborate.

I am asking you for the benefit of the mentally inhibited, and those who had a sip too much.

.

The premise of this thread and of Alewyn's book is that the OLB is historically accurate from the start and in every detail. If Otharus contention that it may be applied to the 13th century were correct then the original premise is wrong. It's just that plain and simple. They both can't be right.

cormac

[Otharus]

Even if Otharus' idea of it dating to the 13th century were correct, it invalidates the entire premise of this thread.

The thread is merged and not only about the Great Flood.

[cormac mac airt]

The thread is merged and not only about the Great Flood.

The thread is about the validity of the OLB, in its entirety, and not just from the 13th century. Although I can see your interest in it from the 13th century as you have a better chance of validating that contention than the original premise.

BTW, I know the thread was merged, since it's easier to move the goal-posts than to validate the original premise.

cormac

[Otharus]

Old-Frisian RHYMESAGA (part I)

transcribed, translated and published by Montanus Hettema (1832)

(Transcription is changed into capitals by me to make comparison to OLB language easier. English translation added; a mix of an anonymous one I found on the web and some improvised corrections by me)

THIT WAS TO THERE STUNDE

THA THI KENENG KERL RIUCHTA BIGUNDE

Het was ten tijde

Dat de koning karel zijn gebied begon;

It was at the time

that king Charles began to rule.

THA WAS TER ANDE THERE SAXINNA MERIK

LIUDINGERUS EN HERA FELE STERIC

Toen was er in de saksische landen

Luidinger een zeer sterk heer.

Then there was in the Saxonmarks

Liudingerus, a very strong lord.

HI WELDE HIM ALSA WALDLIKE

TAGETHAN, THER HI FON RIUCHTA SCOLDE BIHALDA THA KENIG KERLIS KAIRSKA RIKE

Hij behield voor zich met geweld de tienden,

Die hij met regt moest behouden voor des konings karels keizerlijk rijk;

He took for himself with force the taxes,

that were ment for king Charles' empire.

AC WELDE HI MA DUAN

HI WELDE THA STERKA FRESAN VNDER SINNE TEGETHA TIAN

Ook wilde hij meer doen.

Hij wilde de sterke friezen onder zijne tienden trekken.

And he wanted to do more;

he wanted to tax the strong Frisians.

HI BIBAD IT EFTER ALLE SINE RIKE

THET MA HINE HETA SCOLDE KONING WALDELIKE

Hij beval daarna in geheel zijn rijk

Dat men hem magtigen koning zoude noemen.

He ordered in whole his realm

that he should be called mighty king.

THA THI KENING KERL THIT VNDERSTOD

TORNIG WAS HIM HIRVMBE SIN MOD

Wanneer de koning karel dit vernam,

Was zijn gemoed hierom zeer toornig.

When king Charles understood this,

his mood became furious.

HI LET HIT THA FRESUM THA KUNDIG DUAN

HODIR HIA THENE NIA KENING MITH HIM MITH STRIDE WELDE BISTAN

Hij liet het de friezen dan weten,

Hoe zij den nieuwen koning met hem zouden be-oorlogen.

He announced to the Frisians

whether they with him would start a fight against the new king.

THA FRESEN GADER E.KOMEN

UPPE THIT BODESCIP. SE ANNE GOD GENOMIN

De friezen te zamen gekomen zijnde

Op dit boodschap, bebben een goed besluit genomen.

The Frisians gathered;

on this message they took a good decision.

THI FRESA FELE STERKA

HI FORIM THA AND THA SAXINNA MERKA

De friezen veel en sterk

Gingen dan пааг de saksische landen;

The Frisians very strongly

went to the the Saxonmarks.

THA SASSISKA HERAN THIT FORNOMIN

UP THA FELDA IA FRESUM TO IONIS KOMIN

Als de saksische heeren dit vernamen,

Kwamen zij de friezen op het veld tegemoet.

The Saxon lords became aware of that;

they came to meet the Frisians on the field.

THA FUGTIN SE ALSA GRIMLIKE

OF SLOG MA THA SAXUM BETHE THENE ERMA AND THENE RIKA

Toen vochten zij zeer grammoedig;

Men sloeg de saksers dood, beiden armen en rijken;

Then they fought so grimly

they slew the Saxons both the poor and the rich.

THAG TO THA LESTA

FENG MA OF THA SAXUM. HERAN AND RIDDERAN. THA BESTA

Doch op het laatst

Ving men de besten van de saksische heeren en ridders.

But at last

they caught the best of the Saxon lords and knights.

HIA BAND MA ALSA SERE

MITH ENE STERKA MERE

Men bond hen zeer vast,

Met eenen sterken strik;

Those they tied so much

with strong fetters.

JA LATTEN SE THA WALDELIKE

ALDER HIA THENE KENING KERL URNOMIN SINE RIKE

Zij leidden hen toen met geweld,

Alwaar zij wisten, dat de koning karel in zijn rijk was.

Then they lead them by force

where they found king Charles in his realm.

THA HI THET FORNOM

THET HIM THI SAXINNA HERA ALLE BUNDEN KOM

Toen hij dit vernam,

Dat alle de saksische heeren gebonden bij hem kwamen,

When king Charles heard

that the Saxon lords came to him all tied,

WEL WAS HIM ANDE SINE HEI

THI BAD THA STULTA FRESA GODNE DEI

Toen was hij wel te moede,

En wenschte de stoute friezen goeden dag.

he was very glad in his mind;

he wished the proud Frisians a good day.

HI NOM SE THA ANDE PALAS SIN

HI SCANCT.UM BETHE MEDE ANDE WIN

Hij nam hen toen in zijn paleis,

Hij schonk hun beide eten en wijn.

He then took them in his palace

and served them both mead and wine.

THA FRESAN FORIN VT.ES KUNINGES HOWE

TO IHER LONDE HIA WEDERKOM MIT HALIKE LOWE

De friezen gingen uit des konings hof,

En kwamen met grooten lof wederom in hun land.

The Frisians left the kings' court;

they arrived in their country with high praise.

ALDUS HEB HI URSTEN

HU TA STERKA FRESA HIS WITH THENE SAXA THA FORGEN

Aldus hebt gij verstaan,

Hoe bet de sterke friezen tegen de saksers toen is gegaan.

So you have heard

how the strong Frisians then fared against the Saxons.

[Knul]

Old-Frisian RHYMESAGA (part I)

transcribed, translated and published by Montanus Hettema (1832)

(Transcription is changed into capitals by me to make comparison to OLB language easier. English translation added; a mix of an anonymous one I found on the web and some improvised corrections by me)

THIT WAS TO THERE STUNDE

THA THI KENENG KERL RIUCHTA BIGUNDE

Het was ten tijde

Dat de koning karel zijn gebied begon;....................................riuchta is verb 'richten, regeren', not the noun tha riuchta - de rechten.

It was at the time

that king Charles began to rule.

THA WAS TER ANDE THERE SAXINNA MERIK

LIUDINGERUS EN HERA FELE STERIC

Toen was er in de saksische landen

Luidinger een zeer sterk heer.

Then there was in the Saxonmarks

Liudingerus, a very strong lord.

HI WELDE HIM ALSA WALDLIKE

TAGETHAN, THER HI FON RIUCHTA SCOLDE BIHALDA THA KENIG KERLIS KAIRSKA RIKE

Hij behield voor zich met geweld de tienden,

Die hij met regt moest behouden voor des konings karels keizerlijk rijk;

He took for himself with force the taxes,

that were ment for king Charles' empire.

AC WELDE HI MA DUAN

HI WELDE THA STERKA FRESAN VNDER SINNE TEGETHA TIAN

Ook wilde hij meer doen.

Hij wilde de sterke friezen onder zijne tienden trekken.

And he wanted to do more;

he wanted to tax the strong Frisians.

HI BIBAD IT EFTER ALLE SINE RIKE

THET MA HINE HETA SCOLDE KONING WALDELIKE

Hij beval daarna in geheel zijn rijk

Dat men hem magtigen koning zoude noemen.

He ordered in whole his realm

that he should be called mighty king.

THA THI KENING KERL THIT VNDERSTOD

TORNIG WAS HIM HIRVMBE SIN MOD

Wanneer de koning karel dit vernam,

Was zijn gemoed hierom zeer toornig.

When king Charles understood this,

his mood became furious.

HI LET HIT THA FRESUM THA KUNDIG DUAN

HODIR HIA THENE NIA KENING MITH HIM MITH STRIDE WELDE BISTAN

Hij liet het de friezen dan weten,

Hoe zij den nieuwen koning met hem zouden be-oorlogen.

He announced to the Frisians

whether they with him would start a fight against the new king.

THA FRESEN GADER E.KOMEN

UPPE THIT BODESCIP. SE ANNE GOD GENOMIN

De friezen te zamen gekomen zijnde

Op dit boodschap, bebben een goed besluit genomen.

The Frisians gathered;

on this message they took a good decision.

THI FRESA FELE STERKA

HI FORIM THA AND THA SAXINNA MERKA

De friezen veel en sterk

Gingen dan пааг de saksische landen;

The Frisians very strongly

went to the the Saxonmarks.

THA SASSISKA HERAN THIT FORNOMIN

UP THA FELDA IA FRESUM TO IONIS KOMIN

Als de saksische heeren dit vernamen,

Kwamen zij de friezen op het veld tegemoet.

The Saxon lords became aware of that;

they came to meet the Frisians on the field.

THA FUGTIN SE ALSA GRIMLIKE

OF SLOG MA THA SAXUM BETHE THENE ERMA AND THENE RIKA

Toen vochten zij zeer grammoedig;

Men sloeg de saksers dood, beiden armen en rijken;

Then they fought so grimly

they slew the Saxons both the poor and the rich.

THAG TO THA LESTA

FENG MA OF THA SAXUM. HERAN AND RIDDERAN. THA BESTA

Doch op het laatst

Ving men de besten van de saksische heeren en ridders.

But at last

they caught the best of the Saxon lords and knights.

HIA BAND MA ALSA SERE

MITH ENE STERKA MERE

Men bond hen zeer vast,

Met eenen sterken strik;

Those they tied so much

with strong fetters.

JA LATTEN SE THA WALDELIKE

ALDER HIA THENE KENING KERL URNOMIN SINE RIKE

Zij leidden hen toen met geweld,

Alwaar zij wisten, dat de koning karel in zijn rijk was.

Then they lead them by force

where they found king Charles in his realm.

THA HI THET FORNOM

THET HIM THI SAXINNA HERA ALLE BUNDEN KOM

Toen hij dit vernam,

Dat alle de saksische heeren gebonden bij hem kwamen,

When king Charles heard

that the Saxon lords came to him all tied,

WEL WAS HIM ANDE SINE HEI

THI BAD THA STULTA FRESA GODNE DEI

Toen was hij wel te moede,

En wenschte de stoute friezen goeden dag.

he was very glad in his mind;

he wished the proud Frisians a good day.

HI NOM SE THA ANDE PALAS SIN

HI SCANCT.UM BETHE MEDE ANDE WIN

Hij nam hen toen in zijn paleis,

Hij schonk hun beide eten en wijn.

He then took them in his palace

and served them both mead and wine.

THA FRESAN FORIN VT.ES KUNINGES HOWE

TO IHER LONDE HIA WEDERKOM MIT HALIKE LOWE

De friezen gingen uit des konings hof,

En kwamen met grooten lof wederom in hun land.

The Frisians left the kings' court;

they arrived in their country with high praise.

ALDUS HEB HI URSTEN

HU TA STERKA FRESA HIS WITH THENE SAXA THA FORGEN

Aldus hebt gij verstaan,

Hoe bet de sterke friezen tegen de saksers toen is gegaan.

So you have heard

how the strong Frisians then fared against the Saxons.

cfr.:

Fon alra fresena fridome1

Van de vrijheid van alle Friezen

Thit was to there stunde

tha thi kening kerl riuchta bi gunde.

Tha waster ande there saxinna merik

liudingerus en hera fele steric.

Het was in de tijd

dat koning Karel begon te regeren.

Toen was er in het Saksische gebied

Liudingerus, een erg sterke heer.

Hi welde him alsa waldlike

tha gethan ther hi fon riuchta scolde bi halda tha kening kerlis kairslica2 rike.

Ac welde hi ma duan

hi welde tha sterka fresan under sinne tegetha tian.

Hij wilde met geweld voor zichzelf houden

de tienden die hij rechtens moest behouden voor het keizerlijke rijk van koning Karel.

Ook wilde hij meer doen,

hij wilde de sterke Friezen onder zijn tienden brengen.

Hi bi badit efter alle sine rike

thet ma hine heta scode koning waldelike.

tha thi kening kerl thit under stod.

tornig was him hir umbe si mod.

Hij gebood in heel zijn rijk

dat men hem machtige koning zou noemen.

Toen koning Karel dit vernam,

was zijn gemoed hier toornig over.

Hi let hit tha fresum tha kundig duan

hodir hia thene nia kening mith him mith stride welde bi stan.

Tha fresen gadere komin

uppa thit bodisclskip se anne god red ge nomin.

Hij liet toen aan de Friezen vragen

of zij deze nieuwe koning met hem met strijd wilden weerstaan.

De Friezen kwamen samen,

op deze boodschap, hebben ze een goed besluit genomen.

Thi fresa fele sterka

hi forim tha and tha saxinna merka.

Tha sassiska heran thit for nomin

up tha felda ia fresum to ionis komin.

De erg sterke Friezen,

gingen toen naar de Saksische gebieden.

Toen de Saksische heren dit vernamen,

kwamen zij op het veld de Friezen tegemoet.

Tha fugtin se alsa grimlike3

of slogma tha saxum bethe thene erma and thene rika.

Thag to tha lesta.

feng ma of tha saxum heran and ridderan tha besta4.

Toen vochten ze zo grimmig,

men slachtte de Saksen af, zowel de arme als de rijke.

Maar op het laatst,

ving men van de Saksen de beste heren en ridders.

Iha5 band ma6 alsa sere

mith ene sterka mere.

Ia latten se tha waldelike

alder iha7 thene kening kerl ur nomin ande sine rike

Men bond hen zeer vast

met een sterk touw.

Ze leidden hen toen met geweld,

naar waar zij vernamen dat koning Karel in zijn rijk was.

tha8 hi thet for nom9

thet him thi saxinna hera alle bundin10 kom.

wel was him ande sine hei

thi bad tha stulta fresa godne dei.

Toen hij dit vernam,

dat de Saksische heren allen gebonden tot hem kwamen,

was hij wel te moede,

hij wenste de koene Friezen goedendag.

Hi nom se tha ande palas sin

hi scanctum bethe mede ande win.

tha fresan forin utes koningis11 howe

to iher londe iha weder kom mith halike lowe.

Hij nam ze toen binnen in zijn paleis,

hij schonk hun zowel mede als wijn.

De Friezen verlieten het hof van de koning,

naar hun land kwamen zij terug met hoge lof.

Aldus dus heb hi ur sten

hu ta sterka fresa his wit thene saxa tha for gen.

Aldus hebben jullie begrepen

hoe het de sterke Friezen toen tegen de Saksen is vergaan.

Thit sce12 ther na to ener stunde

thet ta romera heran with thene kening kerl strida13 bi gunden

stultlike weldin iha

thene tins bi halda tha keninglika rike.

Dit geschiedde daarna op een tijd,

dat de Romeinse heren tegen koning Karel begonnen te strijden.

Hoogmoedig wilden zij

de heffing onthouden aan het koninklijke rijk.

thi kening thit serlike14

kundegia let alle sine keningrike.

Iha komin alle to samene

ther werin ande sine rike sibbe ande framede.

De koning liet dit ernstig

verkondigen in heel zijn koninkrijk.

Zij kwamen allen tezamen,

die waren in zijn rijk, verwanten en vreemden.

Tha fresan thit mere for nomin

to thes keningis howe une lathadis se ther komin.

Iha werin ther nette ande god

wand iha drogin enir stultere lauwa mod.

Toen de Friezen deze mare vernamen,

kwamen zij ongevraagd naar het hof van de koning.

Zij waren daar nuttig en waardevol,

want zij droegen de moed van een trotse leeuwin.

Iha sprekin ther to fara tha keningge wigandlike.

Iha welde allena fiugta witha romera heran fore thet kairslike rike.

Iha nomin tha scerpa suerd and ihera honda

iha gegin to fara there burig stonda.

Zij spraken daar strijdbaar voor de koning,

zij wilden alleen vechten tegen de Romeinse heren voor het keizerlijke rijk.

Zij namen het scherpe zwaard in hun handen,

zij gingen voor de burcht staan.

Tha heran binna there burig thit ge segin

uppa thene feld ion tha fresan to stride tha tegin.

En ordil warth ther up ge hewin.

monig diore wigand warth nither tha there ge slagin.

Toen de heren binnen de burcht dit zagen,

togen zij naar het veld om tegen de Friezen te strijden.

Een oordeel werd daar aangeheven,

menig waardevolle strijder werd daar neergeslagen.

tha to there stunde

thi fresa hastelike on tha heran fiugta15 bi gunde.

serlike tha heran umbe tha segin.

alle balde se to there burg flegin.

Toen op die tijd,

begonnen de Friezen haastig tegen de heren te vechten.

Pijnlijk zagen de heren om zich heen,

allen vluchtten zij snel naar de burcht.

thi fresa folgade mith un tuiuilika sinne.

hu hi tha burg kreftlike wnne.

thag uppa thet leste

wnnin iha tha burg and heran tha besta.

De Friezen volgden met vastberaden zin,

om de burcht met kracht te winnen.

Maar op het laatst,

wonnen zij de burcht en de besten van de heren.

tha porta gundtma bi sluta

thi kening kerl mith sine folke waster abuta.

Iha fundent and ihera16 rede

iha welde tha kening kerle iowa bethe burg ande liude.

De poort ging men sluiten,

koning Karel met zijn volk was daar buiten.

Zij vonden het in hun rede,

dat zij wilden koning Karel geven zowel burcht als lieden.

thi kening thogte ande sine mode

hu hi tha stulta fresa thisse waldelika deda lania scolde mith eniga gode.

hi iof him mitha allere arista

iefta17 tha masta.

De koning dacht bij zichzelf

hoe hij de koene Friezen voor deze machtige daden zou belonen met enig goed.

Hij gaf hun met de allereerste

giften het meeste.

tuintech merka fon brondrada golde

ther thi fresa iera hec tha kairscipe to tegetha iowa scolde.

thiu iefte ther hi hede tha fresum ge dan

thiu moste emmer and emmer mare velika stan.

Twintig marken aan vuurrood goud,

die de Friezen jaarlijks de keizer als heffing zouden geven.

De gift die hij de Friezen had gedaan,

die moest immer en immermeer voor eeuwig bestaan.

ther hi ta bad kairslike

thet se ne scolde nen hera thuwingga waldelike.

hit ne were thet iha bi iera goda willa welde thet dua

thet se anne hera wolde und fa.

Daarbij gebood hij keizerlijk

dat geen heer hen met geweld zou bedwingen.

Tenzij ze dat uit hun vrije wil wilden doen,

dat ze een heer wilden aannemen.

thag wenik ande mine sinne

thet hia bi willa angne hera ge winne.18

nowet19 allena tha keningge and thisse bode nogade

thes heliga pawis gregorius weld hi hir to fogade.

Maar ik betwijfel

dat zij uit eigen wil enige heer zouden aanvaarden.

Niet alleen de koning en zijn gebod waren voldoende,

het gezag van de heilige paus Gregorius voegde hij hieraan toe.

hi bed hit ita pawis tha

thet hi tha fresan mitha gastelika riuchte welde bi fa.

hewelike alle hi to bonne se dede

ther tha fresum to brogte enige nede.

Hij verzocht toen de paus

dat hij de Friezen onder het geestelijk recht wilde brengen.

Voor eeuwig deed hij iedereen in de ban

die aan de Friezen enige nood brachten.

Alder bi bad hit thi kening kerl opinbere

thet fresan iera hec nige redian him kere.

tha kairslika crona hi uppa ihera hawid sette

alder umbe hi se scera lette.

Aldaar gebood koning Karel in het openbaar

de Friezen zich jaarlijks nieuwe raadgevers te kiezen.

De keizerlijke kroon zette hij op hun hoofd,

daarom liet hij hen scheren.

thag ief se thet ne wolde nowet dua

ut mostin se him ihera her leta frilike waxa.

thet hit alle liude magte tha sian

thet hi se fri hede ge dan.

Maar als ze dat niet wilden doen,

dan moesten ze hun haar vrijelijk laten groeien.

Opdat iedereen het moge zien,

dat hij hen vrij had gemaakt.

hi bi bad hit him tha keninglike

alle thi fresa ther were sterik and rike.

thet iha anne slag and ihera witta hals scolde him und fa

ther efter moste hi ridder biliwa.

Hij gebood het hun toen koninklijk,

alle Friezen die sterk en rijk waren,

dat zij een slag op hun witte hals van hem zouden ontvangen.

Daarna moest hij ridder blijven.

Wepin scolde hi ther efter20 drega alle scone

and sine scelde moste hi melia tha kenlika crona.

thet hi thissa iefta tha fresum hede evelike dan

ther hi keningan21 and hertigan to witscipe up nom and ondris monege halike man.

Wapen zou hij daarna dragen, een hele mooie,

op zijn schild moest hij schilderen de koninklijke kroon.

Dat hij deze gift aan de Friezen voor eeuwig had gedaan,

daartoe nam hij koningen en hertogen als getuige en menig ander groot man.

thach to lesta

hu hit tha efterkumanda evelike wiste.

Ande tha brewm hit ma bi scref

fon tha ieftum ther abuta nowet ur ietin bi lef.

Maar op het laatst,

opdat de nakomelingen het voor eeuwig zouden weten,

beschreef men het in de brieven,

van de giften, daar buiten niets vergeten bleef.

thet22 insigil thet was fon tha brondrada golde

hu hit alle liude wiste thet thius ief ewelike stonda scolde.

thisse bref ma tha fri fresa iof and sine hond

mith dole and mith harum23 hi wider for and sine ain frilike lond.

Het zegel, dat was van vuurrood goud,

opdat iedereen zou weten dat deze gift voor eeuwig stand zou houden.

Deze brief stelde men de vrije Fries ter hand,

met geschenk en met eer ging hij weer naar zijn eigen vrije land.

Aldus mugin hit alle liude for stan

thet thi kening kerl thene fresa umbe thet kreftlike strid fri hewet ge dan.

Aldus moge iedereen het begrijpen

dat koning Karel de Friezen vanwege de krachtige strijd vrij heeft gemaakt.

Bronteksten: Eerste Hunsingoër Handschrift (H1/Ms. Wicht), p. 127-132 en Tweede Hunsingoër Handschrift (H2/Ms. Scaliger), p. 66-71.

Transcriptie, vertaling en bewerking: Bouwe Brouwer

1De titel Fon alra fresena fridome is later bedacht en komt dus niet uit de Hunsingoër handschriften.

2H1: kairska; H2: kairslica

3H1: grimlike; H2: grimlik

4H1: lesta; H2: besta

5H1: hia; H2: iha

6ma ontbreekt in H1

7H1: hia; H2: iha

8H1: tha; H2: tho

9H1: nom; H2: nomen

10H1: bunden; H2: bundin

11H1: koningis; H2: konis

12H1: ske; H2: sce

13In H2 ontbreekt het woord stride, maar is wel ruimte voor een woord leeg gelaten.

14H1: serelike; H2: serlike

15H1: fugta; H2: fiugta

16H1: hiara; H2: ihera

17H1: ieftha; H2: iefta

18In H1 ontbreekt de hele regel

19H1: nouet; H2: nowet

20H1: efter; H2: effter

21H1: keningan; H2: kenigan

22H1: the; H2: thet

23H1: erum; H2: harum

s. http://www.bouwebrouwer.nl/oudfries_recht/fon_alra_fresena_fridome.html

Edited November 20, 2011 by Knul

[The Puzzler]

Up to when you start about 'gader' I agree with you.

I know the OLB word Kad stands for both coast as well as as quay or stone wall to protect a beach.

The rest of your post is just you forcing yourself to explain Gadir in Old Frisian, but the OLB uses the word "Kadik".

Here, Katwijk harbour with a Kadik, lol:

You'll remember, Katwijk or "Kattek"/"Kattik" in local dialect, or sometimes even "Kaddik" when the bottom of a bottle of booze starts coming into sight..

.

.

I don't even have to try.

quay

1690s, variant of M.E. key "wharf" (c.1400; mid-13c. in place names), from O.N.Fr. cai (O.Fr. chai) "sand bank," from Gaulish caium (5c.), from O.Celt. *kagio- "to encompass, enclose" (cf. Welsh cae "fence, hedge," Cornish ke "hedge"), cognate with O.E. haga "hedge" (see hedge). Spelling altered by influence of Fr. quai, from the same Celtic source.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=quay

[The Puzzler]

The Hague is first mentioned as 'Die Hage' in a document dating from 1242. In the fifteenth century the more formal 'des Graven hage' came into use, literally "the count's wood", with connotations like "the count's hedge, private enclosure or hunting grounds".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hague

The count's HEDGE, PRIVATE ENCLOSURE.

from hage. See quay etymology above.

I can imagine cage comes from same.

ke, key, cay, cai, cage, haga, hedge = all equal enclose, lock

keys, locks and gates are all used in canal building.

Edited November 21, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Old-Frisian RHYMESAGA (part I)

transcribed, translated and published by Montanus Hettema (1832)

(Transcription is changed into capitals by me to make comparison to OLB language easier. English translation added; a mix of an anonymous one I found on the web and some improvised corrections by me)

THIT WAS TO THERE STUNDE

THA THI KENENG KERL RIUCHTA BIGUNDE

Het was ten tijde

Dat de koning karel zijn gebied begon;

It was at the time

that king Charles began to rule.

THA WAS TER ANDE THERE SAXINNA MERIK

LIUDINGERUS EN HERA FELE STERIC

Toen was er in de saksische landen

Luidinger een zeer sterk heer.

Then there was in the Saxonmarks

Liudingerus, a very strong lord.

HI WELDE HIM ALSA WALDLIKE

TAGETHAN, THER HI FON RIUCHTA SCOLDE BIHALDA THA KENIG KERLIS KAIRSKA RIKE

Hij behield voor zich met geweld de tienden,

Die hij met regt moest behouden voor des konings karels keizerlijk rijk;

He took for himself with force the taxes,

that were ment for king Charles' empire.

AC WELDE HI MA DUAN

HI WELDE THA STERKA FRESAN VNDER SINNE TEGETHA TIAN

Ook wilde hij meer doen.

Hij wilde de sterke friezen onder zijne tienden trekken.

And he wanted to do more;

he wanted to tax the strong Frisians.

HI BIBAD IT EFTER ALLE SINE RIKE

THET MA HINE HETA SCOLDE KONING WALDELIKE

Hij beval daarna in geheel zijn rijk

Dat men hem magtigen koning zoude noemen.

He ordered in whole his realm

that he should be called mighty king.

THA THI KENING KERL THIT VNDERSTOD

TORNIG WAS HIM HIRVMBE SIN MOD

Wanneer de koning karel dit vernam,

Was zijn gemoed hierom zeer toornig.

When king Charles understood this,

his mood became furious.

HI LET HIT THA FRESUM THA KUNDIG DUAN

HODIR HIA THENE NIA KENING MITH HIM MITH STRIDE WELDE BISTAN

Hij liet het de friezen dan weten,

Hoe zij den nieuwen koning met hem zouden be-oorlogen.

He announced to the Frisians

whether they with him would start a fight against the new king.

THA FRESEN GADER E.KOMEN

UPPE THIT BODESCIP. SE ANNE GOD GENOMIN

De friezen te zamen gekomen zijnde

Op dit boodschap, bebben een goed besluit genomen.

The Frisians gathered;

on this message they took a good decision.

THI FRESA FELE STERKA

HI FORIM THA AND THA SAXINNA MERKA

De friezen veel en sterk

Gingen dan пааг de saksische landen;

The Frisians very strongly

went to the the Saxonmarks.

THA SASSISKA HERAN THIT FORNOMIN

UP THA FELDA IA FRESUM TO IONIS KOMIN

Als de saksische heeren dit vernamen,

Kwamen zij de friezen op het veld tegemoet.

The Saxon lords became aware of that;

they came to meet the Frisians on the field.

THA FUGTIN SE ALSA GRIMLIKE

OF SLOG MA THA SAXUM BETHE THENE ERMA AND THENE RIKA

Toen vochten zij zeer grammoedig;

Men sloeg de saksers dood, beiden armen en rijken;

Then they fought so grimly

they slew the Saxons both the poor and the rich.

THAG TO THA LESTA

FENG MA OF THA SAXUM. HERAN AND RIDDERAN. THA BESTA

Doch op het laatst

Ving men de besten van de saksische heeren en ridders.

But at last

they caught the best of the Saxon lords and knights.

HIA BAND MA ALSA SERE

MITH ENE STERKA MERE

Men bond hen zeer vast,

Met eenen sterken strik;

Those they tied so much

with strong fetters.

JA LATTEN SE THA WALDELIKE

ALDER HIA THENE KENING KERL URNOMIN SINE RIKE

Zij leidden hen toen met geweld,

Alwaar zij wisten, dat de koning karel in zijn rijk was.

Then they lead them by force

where they found king Charles in his realm.

THA HI THET FORNOM

THET HIM THI SAXINNA HERA ALLE BUNDEN KOM

Toen hij dit vernam,

Dat alle de saksische heeren gebonden bij hem kwamen,

When king Charles heard

that the Saxon lords came to him all tied,

WEL WAS HIM ANDE SINE HEI

THI BAD THA STULTA FRESA GODNE DEI

Toen was hij wel te moede,

En wenschte de stoute friezen goeden dag.

he was very glad in his mind;

he wished the proud Frisians a good day.

HI NOM SE THA ANDE PALAS SIN

HI SCANCT.UM BETHE MEDE ANDE WIN

Hij nam hen toen in zijn paleis,

Hij schonk hun beide eten en wijn.

He then took them in his palace

and served them both mead and wine.

THA FRESAN FORIN VT.ES KUNINGES HOWE

TO IHER LONDE HIA WEDERKOM MIT HALIKE LOWE

De friezen gingen uit des konings hof,

En kwamen met grooten lof wederom in hun land.

The Frisians left the kings' court;

they arrived in their country with high praise.

ALDUS HEB HI URSTEN

HU TA STERKA FRESA HIS WITH THENE SAXA THA FORGEN

Aldus hebt gij verstaan,

Hoe bet de sterke friezen tegen de saksers toen is gegaan.

So you have heard

how the strong Frisians then fared against the Saxons.

This text appears to be a tad more 'primitive' or older than the text of the OLB.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I don't even have to try.

quay

1690s, variant of M.E. key "wharf" (c.1400; mid-13c. in place names), from O.N.Fr. cai (O.Fr. chai) "sand bank," from Gaulish caium (5c.), from O.Celt. *kagio- "to encompass, enclose" (cf. Welsh cae "fence, hedge," Cornish ke "hedge"), cognate with O.E. haga "hedge" (see hedge). Spelling altered by influence of Fr. quai, from the same Celtic source.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=quay

It doesn't prove scheise.

[Abramelin]

The Hague is first mentioned as 'Die Hage' in a document dating from 1242. In the fifteenth century the more formal 'des Graven hage' came into use, literally "the count's wood", with connotations like "the count's hedge, private enclosure or hunting grounds".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hague

The count's HEDGE, PRIVATE ENCLOSURE.

from hage. See quay etymology above.

I can imagine cage comes from same.

ke, key, cay, cai, cage, haga, hedge = all equal enclose, lock

keys, locks and gates are all used in canal building.

It wasn't an enclosure, it was a an open area with a bunch of trees in a park.

Nothing to do with a quay or a dyke or a harbour.

You are grasping at straws now.

Why?

[The Puzzler]

It wasn't an enclosure, it was a an open area with a bunch of trees in a park.

Nothing to do with a quay or a dyke or a harbour.

You are grasping at straws now.

Why?

From quay: O.E. haga "hedge"

Then you have the Hague, said to be the hedge or private enclosure.

Hardly grasping at straws.