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Riaan

[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

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Alewyn

But I don't believe it was the Black Sea either.

It must have been the sea east of the Baltic, what is now the gulf of Finland.

Apologies if someone already said this;

I have focussed on many things other than the geography of the Fryan Empire lately.

East; utter east of Gulf of Finland

West; utter west of Mediterranean

So basically the whole coastline from East Estonia to Southern Spain.

How then do we explain

1. The 12 large rivers of Europe,

2. Italy (Heinde Krekaland),

3. Greece (Verre Krekaland), and

4. Switzerland?

The Oera Linda Book is quite clear that these were all part of "Frya's land" before 2193 BC, i.e. more than 4200 years ago.

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Abramelin

OK, apparently you put me on ignore.

And why? Because I challenge your convictions about the OLB, and proof to show it.

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Otharus

How then do we explain

1. The 12 large rivers of Europe,

2. Italy (Heinde Krekaland),

3. Greece (Verre Krekaland), and

4. Switzerland?

The Oera Linda Book is quite clear that these were all part of "Frya's land" before 2193 BC, i.e. more than 4200 years ago.

3./4. In "EER THEERE ARGE TID KEEM", OLB page 47-49 (chapter XXI "Boundaries" in "Survivors), 'Greece' and 'Switzerland' are not mentioned.

1. The 12 large rivers can be found between "the extremity of the Aster Sea" (UTER ENDE THES ASTER SEE) and the "Middel Sea" (MIDDEL SEE).

I have never counted them, but on the sketch I posted a few hours ago, it looks like this could be right.

2. About 'Italy' it says:

"BUTA AND BIHALVA HEEDON VSA STJURAR AND KAPLJVD MENI LOGE ANDA HEEIND KREEKELANDA AND TO LYDJA"

"Moreover, our navigators and merchants had many factories among the Heinde Krekalander and in Lydia." (Sandbach)

Jensma translated "MENI LOGE" as "algemene vergaderplaatsen"; "general meeting places".

That the FRYAS had places to gather there, does not mean the "Heinde Krekalander" were considered to be part of FRYASLAND. Same goes for the meeting places in Lydja.

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The Puzzler

In Germanic languages, except English, East Sea is used: Afrikaans (Oossee), Danish (Østersøen), Dutch (Oostzee), German (Ostsee), Icelandic and Faroese (Eystrasalt), Norwegian (Østersjøen), and Swedish (Östersjön). In Old English it was known as Ostsæ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea

I think I gotta go the Baltic as the Aster Sea and the Vistula lagoon as part of the East Sea. I think it's hard to overlook that the name for the Baltic in Germanic languages is EAST SEA.

The name must have been given to the Baltic by people West of it and that leaves the Frisians imo, who named the Baltic the East Sea in a Germanic language, because it was east of them when they were in Denmark.

Alewyn, I don't think it's that odd that the Baltic is the Eastern border, consider the Vistula and the Eastern edge of the Baltic their limit, I cannot find any real reference to anyone who lives past the Vistula, people there would be the Jutters, east of Denmark, mentioned, as only picking up amber all day, this is in Wiki too, that's what they did at the Vistula (Gdansk) picked up amber.

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The Puzzler

I'm wondering if Westland is actually Britain or if Westland is on the mainland. I've never heard England referred to as any kind of Westland. But when I looked at the Middle Sea (Middlezee/Middelsee)(I'll spell in English for the sake of it)I saw it was in the Middle, between an Eastland and a Westland. Westergoa.

300px-Middelsee.png

Both these Wiki pages are in Frisian:

http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelsee

http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westergoa

Well, I see this Westland was only created in 2004 so it's probably unrelated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland,_Netherlands

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

Heligoland is interesting too, it's West of Friesland.

The island of Heligoland is a geological oddity; the presence of the main island's characteristic red sedimentary rock in the middle of the German Bight is unusual. It is the only such formation of cliffs along the continental coast of the North Sea. The formation itself is from the early Triassic geologic age, the formation is called Bunter. It is older than the white chalk that underlies the island Düne, the same rock that forms the white cliffs of Dover in England, and cliffs of Danish and German islands in the Baltic Sea. In fact, a small chalk rock close to Heligoland, called witt Kliff[2] (white cliff), is known to have existed within sight of the island to the west till the early 18th century, when storm floods finally eroded it to below sea level.

Heligoland's rock is significantly harder than the postglacial sediments and sands forming the islands and coastlines to the east of the island. This is why the core of the island, which a thousand years ago was still surrounded by a large, low-lying marshland and sand dunes separated from coast in the east only by narrow channels, has remained to this day, although the onset of the North Sea has long eroded away all of its surroundings. A small piece of Heligoland's sand dunes remains — the sand isle just across the harbour called Düne (Dune), which today holds Heligoland's airstrip.

The German Bight and the area around the island is known to have been inhabited since prehistoric times. Flint tools have been recovered from the bottom of the sea surrounding Heligoland. On the Oberland prehistoric burial mounds were visible until the late 19th century and excavations showed skeletons and artefacts. Moreover, prehistoric copper plates have been found under water near the island; those plates were almost certainly made on the Oberland[3]

In 697, Radbod, the last Frisian king, retreated to the then-single island after his defeat by the Franks - so it is written in the Life of Willebrord by Alcuin. By 1231, the island was listed as the property of the Danish king Valdemar II.

Fosite has been suggested to be a loan of Greek Poseidon into pre-Proto-Germanic, perhaps via Greeks purchasing amber (Pytheas is known to have visited the area of Heligoland in search of amber).

A loan of Greek Poseidon. Perhaps by Greeks purchasing amber around Heligoland. I'm pretty sure it might have been the other way around, the Greeks loaned him from Heligoland....which had a lovely climate and speaks of holy springs on it.

The geology shows it to be a piece of land that was once surrounded by other land, it's not a volcanic mount, it appears to be cliffs from the mainland. Seperated by narrow channels.

Those Pillars of Heracles you mentioned Abe and I recall you told us about a Cadik/Cadiz in Frisia or Netherlands too. Where was that Cadiz again Abe?

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The Puzzler

This guys idea sounds like Alewyn's book, but he has it all at 3100BC.

In his book Atlantis of the West: The Case For Britain's Drowned Megalithic Civilization, Paul Dunbavin argues that a large island once existed in the Irish Sea and that this island was Atlantis. He argues that this Neolithic civilization in Europe was partially drowned by rising sea levels caused by a comet impact that caused a pole shift and changed the earth's axis around 3100 BC

I think Westland might be Britain now, it doesn't seem to be anywhere else, unless it might have been Heligoland...

The English did take on moving these convicts to miles away to work, Australia itself was a penal colony, so I'm thinking it makes sense for them to have carted these criminals a long way away to a remote island.

OK, back tonight.

Edited by The Puzzler

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cormac mac airt

This guys idea sounds like Alewyn's book, but he has it all at 3100BC.

In his book Atlantis of the West: The Case For Britain's Drowned Megalithic Civilization, Paul Dunbavin argues that a large island once existed in the Irish Sea and that this island was Atlantis. He argues that this Neolithic civilization in Europe was partially drowned by rising sea levels caused by a comet impact that caused a pole shift and changed the earth's axis around 3100 BC

I think Westland might be Britain now, it doesn't seem to be anywhere else, unless it might have been Heligoland...

The English did take on moving these convicts to miles away to work, Australia itself was a penal colony, so I'm thinking it makes sense for them to have carted these criminals a long way away to a remote island.

OK, back tonight.

The two problems with this are that:

1) The same information that shoots Alewyn's axial tilt theory all to hell in a hand-basket also does the same to Paul Dunbavin's idea.

2) The English of the last few hundred years cannot be even remotely equated with peoples from 5000+ years ago, on many grounds. Based on the genetic research of Bryan Sykes and Stephen Oppenheimer, we know where and how the English originated, which has nothing to do with the OLB.

cormac

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Alewyn

.

This response is for the benefit of other readers. To convince you of anything is an exercise in futility as the debate about the “Middel Sea” has shown.

You were wrong about the tilt of the earth's axis;

Herewith extracts from my book re the earth’s axis and tilt:

Page 5

“Planet earth shuddered and tilted on her axis.”

Page 44

“This is undeniable evidence that the impact caused the Earth to be tilted relative to its axis.”

Page 45

“Earth wobbled for a while after the blow before settling and rotating around her new axis.” (This is the only statement out of four that can be construed as “the axis tilted”)

Page 46

“Could this realignment of planet earth around her axis have had an influence on the ancient lake Agassiz in Manitoba, western Ontario, northern Minnesota, eastern North Dakota, and Saskatchewan?”

All these quotes, except one says that the earth tilted around the axis. This is quite different from saying the axis tilted. I agreed in this forum that an asteroid impact 4200 years ago could not have tilted earth’s celestial axis and I speculated here that cosmic impacts may have induced resonance in the earth’s crust that could have caused earth (or to be more specific, the crust) to have slipped on the mantle. This is at worst an untested theory and somebody with more knowledge on the subject could prove me wrong. You, however, are not that person.

Science is not democratic. It does not seek popular opinion, but the truth.

You were wrong about the Faroer; and Friesland Island was called that way because the Frisian pirates who lived there called it Friesland Island according to a centuries old source; it didnt sink, it didnt drown, it just changed names;

As I recall, I posted maps showing that the Faroe Islands was most likely the remains of Frisland (aka Frislant, Frislanda) on the old Zeno Map. You attacked me so fanatically that I dropped the subject. I did not consider it worth my while to discuss the matter any further. As I said then, I gave a presentation to two professors at the school of Geosciences at the University of the Wi****ersrand in Johannesburg and they felt that my findings and theory as to what caused the subsidence were very credible. If I have to weigh your credentials against theirs, I am afraid you fall far short. Again you are in no position to prove me wrong.

Herewith the relevant extract from my book (page 298)

“Was Frisland the Atland of the Frisians? It appears that way. What this exercise does show is that there is a very credible explanation as to how Atland could have disappeared in the North Atlantic Ocean. The Faroe Islands are clearly the last remains of Frisland if not Atland. The Oera Linda Book’s credibility is still intact.

Was Frisland and / or Atlant the mythical Atlantis? Who knows? The names are just too close to one another to ignore. There is, of course, still the underwater Rockall plateau to the south-west of Frisland which most likely went the same way.”

You were wrong about the location of Aldland;it's not just in the Atlantic, it's ALSO in Asia.. well, I think it's just Asia, the Old Land where the Finda came from and later fled to a nearby area near the Himalaya. Two suggestions about it's location in the OLB, take your pick;

The fact that you disagree proves nothing.

1. As I said before, the OLB states that Tunis sailed east to Egypt and, by implication, Inca sailed west from Spain to look for remnants of their Altland in 2000 BC. They had just sailed through the North Sea. If Altland was in the North Sea they would have known it. They would not have needed to go in search for it. This should tell us that their Altland was probably to the west and remote from Europe.

2. The OLB says that the navigators called Altland, in “navy slang”, “Atland”. Do you really think the sailors would have known of an Altland in Kashmir or near the Himalayas in Tibet a 1000 miles from any ocean, let alone have a special name for it that the author thought important enough to mention? This alone should tell you that the sailors were well acquainted with Altland or Atland which may well have been on one of their regular trading routes.

Page 56 from my book:

“Wr-alda’s Sea means God’s Sea which since time immemorial has been known to us as the Atlantic Ocean. The accepted origin of the word is that it is named after the mythical god Atlas. In light of the Oera Linda Book it now seems more reasonable to speculate that the name would rather mean the Ocean of the Old Land, Atland Ocean or Atlantic Ocean…”

I tried to tell you before that you must consider the whole book before jumping to conclusions. You “think it’s just Asia”? That is just not good enough.

You are wrong about the location of Twiskland: it's Germany, not Russia. "Tuisc" was an ancient god of the Germans, according to Tacitus;

The OLB states that Twiskland was beyond their eastern boundary. As I explained before, my interpretation shows that this boundary would have been the River Don which flows into the Sea of Azov at the northern end of the Black Sea. Over 2000 years these Twisklanders could have migrated west into Germany as Tacitus apparently described (your claim).

You theory is based on the english translation by Sandbach, and I have posted about several errors he made; like for instance, the original never uses the words 'west' and 'east' when they talk about the Middel Sea and the Aster Sea...

It is not only Sandbach who uses “east” and “west” but also Tresoar’s “official” Dutch translation:

“Ten oosten paalden wij tot het uiteinde der Oostzee, en ten westen aan den Middelandsche zee, ...”

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Alewyn

3./4. In "EER THEERE ARGE TID KEEM", OLB page 47-49 (chapter XXI "Boundaries" in "Survivors), 'Greece' and 'Switzerland' are not mentioned.

1. The 12 large rivers can be found between "the extremity of the Aster Sea" (UTER ENDE THES ASTER SEE) and the "Middel Sea" (MIDDEL SEE).

I have never counted them, but on the sketch I posted a few hours ago, it looks like this could be right.

2. About 'Italy' it says:

"BUTA AND BIHALVA HEEDON VSA STJURAR AND KAPLJVD MENI LOGE ANDA HEEIND KREEKELANDA AND TO LYDJA"

"Moreover, our navigators and merchants had many factories among the Heinde Krekalander and in Lydia." (Sandbach)

Jensma translated "MENI LOGE" as "algemene vergaderplaatsen"; "general meeting places".

That the FRYAS had places to gather there, does not mean the "Heinde Krekalander" were considered to be part of FRYASLAND. Same goes for the meeting places in Lydja.

The 12 large rivers of Europe are the following:

Tagus, Loire, Rhone, Po, Seine, Rhine, Elbe, Oder, Vistula,Dnieber Don and Danube.

The Danube, Dnieber and Don all flow into the Black Sea.

The Book of Adela's Followers, Chapter XXI:

"3. Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

4. The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rene from one end to the other."

Note that they say the banks of the 12 Rivers "were entirely inhabited by our people" i.e right up to the Black Sea.

The banks of the Rhine from "one end to the other" i.e from Swizerland to the Netherlands. The Rhine starts in Switzerland.

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The Puzzler

The two problems with this are that:

1) The same information that shoots Alewyn's axial tilt theory all to hell in a hand-basket also does the same to Paul Dunbavin's idea.

2) The English of the last few hundred years cannot be even remotely equated with peoples from 5000+ years ago, on many grounds. Based on the genetic research of Bryan Sykes and Stephen Oppenheimer, we know where and how the English originated, which has nothing to do with the OLB.

cormac

I know the English now are mostly not the same as the Frisian but much of the language stayed on, when the Normans conquered there was still many people who were essentially Anglo-Saxon pre-Norman invasion, many of the older ways would have stayed on imo through the new conquerings.

Anyway, tin was mined there and the OLB says that. So, regardless of my pathetic comparison Britain sounds like where they were sent.

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The Puzzler

The two problems with this are that:

1) The same information that shoots Alewyn's axial tilt theory all to hell in a hand-basket also does the same to Paul Dunbavin's idea.

2) The English of the last few hundred years cannot be even remotely equated with peoples from 5000+ years ago, on many grounds. Based on the genetic research of Bryan Sykes and Stephen Oppenheimer, we know where and how the English originated, which has nothing to do with the OLB.

cormac

OK, I am going to seek your knowledge and opinion on something cormac.

Where do you think the actual Atland was? It's not a trick question, I want to know where you have deduced it might be.

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The Puzzler

Herewith the relevant extract from my book (page 298)

“Was Frisland the Atland of the Frisians? It appears that way. What this exercise does show is that there is a very credible explanation as to how Atland could have disappeared in the North Atlantic Ocean. The Faroe Islands are clearly the last remains of Frisland if not Atland. The Oera Linda Book’s credibility is still intact.

Was Frisland and / or Atlant the mythical Atlantis? Who knows? The names are just too close to one another to ignore. There is, of course, still the underwater Rockall plateau to the south-west of Frisland which most likely went the same way.”

The fact that you disagree proves nothing.

1. As I said before, the OLB states that Tunis sailed east to Egypt and, by implication, Inca sailed west from Spain to look for remnants of their Altland in 2000 BC. They had just sailed through the North Sea. If Altland was in the North Sea they would have known it. They would not have needed to go in search for it. This should tell us that their Altland was probably to the west and remote from Europe.

2. The OLB says that the navigators called Altland, in “navy slang”, “Atland”. Do you really think the sailors would have known of an Altland in Kashmir or near the Himalayas in Tibet a 1000 miles from any ocean, let alone have a special name for it that the author thought important enough to mention? This alone should tell you that the sailors were well acquainted with Altland or Atland which may well have been on one of their regular trading routes.

Page 56 from my book:

“Wr-alda’s Sea means God’s Sea which since time immemorial has been known to us as the Atlantic Ocean. The accepted origin of the word is that it is named after the mythical god Atlas. In light of the Oera Linda Book it now seems more reasonable to speculate that the name would rather mean the Ocean of the Old Land, Atland Ocean or Atlantic Ocean…”

I tried to tell you before that you must consider the whole book before jumping to conclusions. You “think it’s just Asia”? That is just not good enough.

The OLB states that Twiskland was beyond their eastern boundary. As I explained before, my interpretation shows that this boundary would have been the River Don which flows into the Sea of Azov at the northern end of the Black Sea. Over 2000 years these Twisklanders could have migrated west into Germany as Tacitus apparently described (your claim).

When Teunis wished to return home, he went first towards Denmark; but he might not land there, for so the mother had ordered, nor was he to land at Flyland nor anywhere about there. In this way he would have lost all his people by want and hardship, so he landed at night to steal and sailed on by day. Thus coasting along, he at length arrived at the colony of Kadik (Cadiz), so called because it was built with a stone quay. Here they bought all kinds of stores, but Tuntia the Burgtmaagd would not allow them to settle there. When they were ready they began to disagree. Teunis wished to sail through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea, and enter the service of the rich Egyptian king, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda’s people. Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. As the two cousins could not agree, Teunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finns and Magyars followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda’s people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall hear of Teunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka.

Quite frankly, I see no mention of going west, although he has gone to seek it, which does indicate he knows of it.

I've been on Atland all arvo and even asked cormac if he'd be kind enough to give me his opinion.

What about the Sea of Azov as Atland?

I found the Saami/Lapp/Finn genes there and it's an area that is known to have gone underwater. I'm not talking about the Black Sea Flood theory, just with changes associated with the 4.2 ky climate change, flooding in the mountains on the scale spoken of in the OLB would have made the water level rise in the Sea of Azoz because of it's geology.

It's in the direction one would come to come through any place called Twiskland on the edge of Freya's land, they fit the description of Finda's people, with hair like horse manes (which I take as long and brown, straight), this area is known for being into Gods early too, it is associated with Scythians explaining movements and the grisly rites, lots of gold trinkets...

If Atland is in the Atlantic how does, when it sinks, the people seem to come in through Twiskland and get into the back of Scandinavia.

Could Twiskland be Norway?

I don't even think Atland/Aldland has to mean Atlantis or Atlas.

Alewyn, even though it seems clear as mud to you, it really isn't, to me at least.

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cormac mac airt

I've said to Alewyn at least twice, I believe that I really don't care much about the OLB. That still remains true.

That being said the only evidence, IMO, remotely close to the time the OLB describes that would account for the disappearance of what would presumably be a sizeable portion of land, would appear TO ME to be the Doggerland area/North Sea.

Presumably according to the way it's laid out or at least as it's presented here, to include some of Alewyn's book, there wasn't much of significance historically speaking before the alleged 2193 BC date. The 'mother culture' responsible for everything allegedly happened AFTER that date.

One can look at the distribution of mtDNA haplogroups and see that from that standpoint there was no ONE haplogroup, nor even a small few, that would be relevant to the timeframe of c.2193 BC. All said haplogroups were already much in play, as it were, and in their respective areas for thousands to tens of thousands of years before said date. Evidence for the ancestors of the Ancient Egyptians can be seen as coming, in small part, from previously inhabited Saharan locations prior to, or as a result of the ongoing dessication of the entire area. The major part, though shows evidence of originating in the southern areas of Egypt and a significant portion of Sudan from c.7000 BC at Al-Kiday 1, c.7500 BC at the El Barga Site and even back as far as c.11,740 +/- 600 BC at Gebel Sahaba.

Going in other directions, we have the La Draga Neolithic Village in Spain c.5200 BC, Broom Hill, Starr Carr and Cramond Sites in England c.6500 BC, 8770 BC and 8500 BC respectively. And many, MANY more very much prior to any illusions of historical significance as laid out by any interpretation of the OLB.

Did this adequately answer your question?

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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Alewyn

The 12 large rivers of Europe are the following:

Tagus, Loire, Rhone, Po, Seine, Rhine, Elbe, Oder, Vistula,Dnieber Don and Danube.

The Danube, Dnieber and Don all flow into the Black Sea.

The Book of Adela's Followers, Chapter XXI:

"3. Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

4. The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rene from one end to the other."

Note that they say the banks of the 12 Rivers "were entirely inhabited by our people" i.e right up to the Black Sea.

The banks of the Rhine from "one end to the other" i.e from Swizerland to the Netherlands. The Rhine starts in Switzerland.

My apologies. I forgot to mention Greece.

The Book of Adela’s Followers, Chapter XXIV

"4. Nef Tunis coasted through the straits to the Middel Sea. When Atland was submerged there was much suffering also on the shores of the Middel Sea, on which account many of Finda's people, Heinde and Fere Krekalandar, and people from Lyda's land, came to us. On the other hand, many of our people went to Lyda's land. The result of all this was that the Heinde and Fere Krekalandar were lost to the superintendence of the folk-mother."

Here we clearly see that both Italy (Heinde Krekaland) and Greece (Verre Krekaland) were part of "Frya's Land" before the disaster.

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The Puzzler

I've said to Alewyn at least twice, I believe that I really don't care much about the OLB. That still remains true.

That being said the only evidence, IMO, remotely close to the time the OLB describes that would account for the disappearance of what would presumably be a sizeable portion of land, would appear TO ME to be the Doggerland area/North Sea.

Presumably according to the way it's laid out or at least as it's presented here, to include some of Alewyn's book, there wasn't much of significance historically speaking before the alleged 2193 BC date. The 'mother culture' responsible for everything allegedly happened AFTER that date.

One can look at the distribution of mtDNA haplogroups and see that from that standpoint there was no ONE haplogroup, nor even a small few, that would be relevant to the timeframe of c.2193 BC. All said haplogroups were already much in play, as it were, and in their respective areas for thousands to tens of thousands of years before said date. Evidence for the ancestors of the Ancient Egyptians can be seen as coming, in small part, from previously inhabited Saharan locations prior to, or as a result of the ongoing dessication of the entire area. The major part, though shows evidence of originating in the southern areas of Egypt and a significant portion of Sudan from c.7000 BC at Al-Kiday 1, c.7500 BC at the El Barga Site and even back as far as c.11,740 +/- 600 BC at Gebel Sahaba.

Going in other directions, we have the La Draga Neolithic Village in Spain c.5200 BC, Broom Hill, Starr Carr and Cramond Sites in England c.6500 BC, 8770 BC and 8500 BC respectively. And many, MANY more very much prior to any illusions of historical significance as laid out by any interpretation of the OLB.

Did this adequately answer your question?

cormac

Yes thanks.

I have ignorantly neglected to follow the Doggerland thread or info but do think the area in the German Bight might be worth looking at, more in the time frame of 2000BC where Heligoland sits, a chunk of sedimentary rock in the ocean which once had shallow channels to the mainland.

But not as Atland I don't think.

I do think the area of the Frisian area obviously went underwater since it tells us that Freya went to her watchstar at this time and they built a new citadel at Texland.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Abramelin

I'm wondering if Westland is actually Britain or if Westland is on the mainland. I've never heard England referred to as any kind of Westland. But when I looked at the Middle Sea (Middlezee/Middelsee)(I'll spell in English for the sake of it)I saw it was in the Middle, between an Eastland and a Westland. Westergoa.

300px-Middelsee.png

Both these Wiki pages are in Frisian:

http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelsee

http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westergoa

Well, I see this Westland was only created in 2004 so it's probably unrelated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland,_Netherlands

"In a wider sense, Westland is also the name of the region south-west of the line The Hague - Delft - Rotterdam , approximately consisting of the municipalities Westland and Midden-Delfland, as well as Hoek van Holland (municipality of Rotterdam)."

Westland is an area, but in 2004 a couple of towns merged and got the same name.

Westland as an area is far older than 2004.

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Otharus

As for the Aster Sea, the OLB states very clearly:

1. They inhabited both banks and the full length of the Rhine river, i.e. right up to Switzerland,

2. Scandinavia was part of their country – they had a burghmaid in Gothahisburg (Gothenburg),

3. Spain (Cadiz) was part of their country – they had a burghmaid there,

4. They had factories in Italy,

5. Even Greece was part of their country before the 2193 BC disaster,

6. They had factories in North Africa,

7. They had a penal colony (and a burghmaid) in Britain, and

8. The 12 large rivers of Europe were all part of their land.

How on earth then can anybody say that their Eastern Boundary was the Baltic?

In Dutch, Baltic Sea = Oostzee

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oostzee

If the "eastern boundary" was the utter eastern shore of the East-sea; present day St. Petersburg, which is more east than Istanbul, all points 1 to 8 are irrelevant.

I'm working on the question which 12 large rivers might have been ment.

"Large" is relative and 12 was a symbolic number (2x6).

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The Puzzler

In Dutch, Baltic Sea = Oostzee

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oostzee

If the "eastern boundary" was the utter eastern shore of the East-sea; present day St. Petersburg, which is more east than Istanbul, all points 1 to 8 are irrelevant.

I'm working on the question which 12 large rivers might have been ment.

"Large" is relative and 12 was a symbolic number (2x6).

I agree, the far eastern boundary of the Baltic (edge of Gulf of Finland) is quite far east, draw a line south and you are just past Istanbul as you say.

The rivers of Europe may have been larger and some might have been known as 2 rather than one large one even.

It almost sounds like the Rhine is an extra river mentioned to me.

"3. Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

4. The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rene from one end to the other."

It's already said they inhabit the banks of the 12 large rivers that water the land that also seems to suggest they all lead to HIS, Wralda's Sea, like they all come out at his sea...

After telling us the people inhabited all of the banks of the 12 rivers, it is then mentioned that they also inhabit the Rhine from one end to the other. It seems the 12 large rivers are in the North of Europe since they all take the seafaring men to Wralda's Sea - then the Rhine is also inhabited by them, although the Rhine may not be part of the land inclusive in the area spoken of...

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The Puzzler

"In a wider sense, Westland is also the name of the region south-west of the line The Hague - Delft - Rotterdam , approximately consisting of the municipalities Westland and Midden-Delfland, as well as Hoek van Holland (municipality of Rotterdam)."

Westland is an area, but in 2004 a couple of towns merged and got the same name.

Westland as an area is far older than 2004.

Yep, ok, I was nearly ready to consider the mainland but I don't know of any tin that was mined in West Netherlands...

So, that is my main reason for thinking that now Britain is Westland and of course, it is West of Denmark and Friesland.

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The Puzzler

In French and Spanish the word East sounds like it could be confused for West since the word for WEST is OESTE. Looks alot like the Oest or Ost that seems Dutch for East...

Fr. ouest, Sp. oeste are from English it says.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=w&p=6

Apart from that, does it even say the Med. (Middle sea) is Westwards in the OLB?

http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/boek/index.html

Page 49 of the actual real photocopied OLB book - you can easy find aster.se then it doesn't really look like 'by evind an thene middlese' says anything about being west....

Printed text OLB:

By morne

paldon wi ovir it utei* ende thes aster-sê , by êvind an thene middelsê , alsa wi buta tha littiga wel twelif grata swete

rinstrama hédon , vs thrvch Wr.alda jêven vmb vs land

elte to haldane and vmb vs wigandlik folk tha wêi to wisana

néi sina sê.

Dutch:

Ten oosten paalden wij tot

het uiteinde der Oostzee , en ten westen aan de Middellandsche zee , zoodat wij buiten de kleine rivieren wel twaalf groote

zoe****er stroomen hadden , ons door Wralda gegeven om

ons land vochtig te houden en om onze zeevaarders den weg

naar zijne zee te wijzen.

Add: Does middelse even translate to Middellandsche Zee......?

If it says middle sea in the OLB and it's the Dutch translation that has manipulated it into Mediterranean Sea, then it probably is not a fake imo, why would it be? So, someone could translate it incorrectly, I doubt it.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

In French and Spanish the word East sounds like it could be confused for West since the word for WEST is OESTE. Looks alot like the Oest or Ost that seems Dutch for East...

Fr. ouest, Sp. oeste are from English it says.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=w&p=6

Apart from that, does it even say the Med. (Middle sea) is Westwards in the OLB?

http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/boek/index.html

Page 49 of the actual real photocopied OLB book - you can easy find aster.se then it doesn't really look like 'by evind an thene middlese' says anything about being west....

Printed text OLB:

By morne

paldon wi ovir it utei* ende thes aster-sê , by êvind an thene middelsê , alsa wi buta tha littiga wel twelif grata swete

rinstrama hédon , vs thrvch Wr.alda jêven vmb vs land

elte to haldane and vmb vs wigandlik folk tha wêi to wisana

néi sina sê.

Dutch:

Ten oosten paalden wij tot

het uiteinde der Oostzee , en ten westen aan de Middellandsche zee , zoodat wij buiten de kleine rivieren wel twaalf groote

zoe****er stroomen hadden , ons door Wralda gegeven om

ons land vochtig te houden en om onze zeevaarders den weg

naar zijne zee te wijzen.

Add: Does middelse even translate to Middellandsche Zee......?

If it says middle sea in the OLB and it's the Dutch translation that has manipulated it into Mediterranean Sea, then it probably is not a fake imo, why would it be? So, someone could translate it incorrectly, I doubt it.

EDIT: I get it evind means evening which means west.

What about Middellandsche zee and middelse?

Edited by The Puzzler

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Otharus

I'm working on the question which 12 large rivers might have been ment.

"Large" is relative and 12 was a symbolic number (2x6).

The 12 large rivers of Europe are the following:

Tagus, Loire, Rhone, Po, Seine, Rhine, Elbe, Oder, Vistula, Dnieber Don and Danube.

The Danube, Dnieber and Don all flow into the Black Sea.

I don't know what Alewyn's source is or on what basis he has chosen these 12 (marked * below), but even if they nowadays are considered to be the 12 largest or most important rivers of Europe, is does not mean that they were the ones ment in OLB.

From "the extremity of the Aster Sea" (St.Petersburg) to (the beginning or most western part of) "the Middel Sea" (Gibraltar), the list below shows a few of the larger rivers.

The list is not complete, but has a few rivers that are larger than Po and Rhone from Alewyn's list.

Weser is mentioned in OLB and also did not show on his list.

1. Daugava (Riga, Latvia), 1020 km

2. Neman (Curonian Lagoon, Latvia), 937 km

3. Vistula (Danzig, Poland), 1070 km *

4. Oder (Stettin, Poland), 854 km *

5. Elbe (Hamburg, Germany), 1164 km *

6. Weser (Bremen, Germany), 452 km

7. Rhine (Leiden, Holland), 1233 km *

8. Meuse (Rotterdam, Holland) 925 km

9. Scheldt (Antwerpen, Belgium) 350 km

("has always had considerable commercial and strategic importance", Wikipedia)

10. Somme (Abbeville, France) 245 km

(? this is not a very long one, but would have been of strategic importance too)

11. Seine (Le Havre, France) 776 km *

12. Loire (Nantes, France) 1012 km *

13. Garonne (Bordeaux, France) 647 km

14. Douro (Porto, Portugal) 897 km

15. Tagus (Lisboa, Portugal) 1038 km *

16. Guadiana (Gulf of Cadiz, Spain/ Portugal) 744 km

17. Guadalquivir (Sevilla, Spain) 657 km

Leaving the following out, because they do not "show our seafaring men the way to his (Wralda's) sea":

Rhone (Mediterranean) 812 km *

Po (Adriatic) 652 km *

Dnieper (Black Sea) 2290 km *

Don (Black Sea) 1950 km *

Danube (Black Sea) 2829 km *

The Book of Adela's Followers, Chapter XXI:

"3. Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea."

The parts I have made bold suggest that the 12 rivers had to be between eastern East-Sea and Gibraltar.

Note that they say the banks of the 12 Rivers "were entirely inhabited by our people" i.e right up to the Black Sea.

The banks of the Rhine from "one end to the other" i.e from Swizerland to the Netherlands. The Rhine starts in Switzerland.

Even today, the banks of any river are not "entirely inhabited" (thank God), so we must take this expression with a pinch of salt.

post-106727-030504800 1288105372_thumb.j

Edited by Otharus

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The Puzzler

I don't know what Alewyn's source is or on what basis he has chosen these 12 (marked * below), but even if they nowadays are considered to be the 12 largest or most important rivers of Europe, is does not mean that they were the ones ment in OLB.

From "the extremity of the Aster Sea "(St.Petersburg) to (the beginning or most western part of) "the Middel Sea" (Gibraltar), the list below shows a few of the larger rivers.

The list is not complete, but has a few rivers that are larger than Po and Rhone from Alewyn's list.

Weser is mentioned in OLB and also did not show on his list.

1. Daugava (Riga, Latvia), 1020 km

2. Neman (Curonian Lagoon, Latvia), 937 km

3. Vistula (Danzig, Poland), 1070 km *

4. Oder (Stettin, Poland), 854 km *

5. Elbe (Hamburg, Germany), 1164 km *

6. Weser (Bremen, Germany), 452 km

7. Rhine (Leiden, Holland), 1233 km *

8. Meuse (Rotterdam, Holland) 925 km

9. Scheldt (Antwerpen, Belgium) 350 km

("has always had considerable commercial and strategic importance", Wikipedia)

10. Somme (Abbeville, France) 245 km

(? this is not a very long one, but would have been of strategic importance too)

11. Seine (Le Havre, France) 776 km *

12. Loire (Nantes, France) 1012 km *

13. Garonne (Bordeaux, France) 647 km

14. Douro (Porto, Portugal) 897 km

15. Tagus (Lisboa, Portugal) 1038 km *

16. Guadiana (Gulf of Cadiz, Spain/ Portugal) 744 km

17. Guadalquivir (Sevilla, Spain) 657 km

Leaving the following out, because they do not "show our seafaring men the way to his (Wralda's) sea":

Rhone (Mediterranean) 812 km *

Po (Adriatic) 652 km *

Dnieper (Black Sea) 2290 km *

Don (Black Sea) 1950 km *

Danube (Black Sea) 2829 km *

The parts I have made bold suggest that the 12 rivers had to be between eastern East-Sea and Gibraltar.

Even today, the banks of any river are not "entirely inhabited" (thank God), so we must take this expression with a pinch of salt.

Yes, good river choices. How about this one:

The Middelzee (Dutch for "middle sea"; West Frisian: Middelsee), also called Bordine, was the estuary mouth of the River Boorn (West Frisian: Boarn) now in the Dutch province of Friesland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelzee

The River Boarn, which would have been larger.

Wralda's Sea being the North Sea?

I also think some rivers in Denmark could be rivers meant, a couple at least go into the North Sea.

The Rivers of Denmark include:

Gudenå

Kongeåen

Odense River

Vidå

Skjern Å

Suså

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rivers_of_Denmark

Even though rivers like the Vistula seem large, I'm unsure if they go into the 'East Sea' Aster Sea (Baltic) if they could be included in the rivers that take the men to Wralda's Sea if Wralda's Sea is the North Sea.

Edit: I guess they could if they sailed through the Kattegat..

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

OK, so Britain is definitely Westland, the Middelse is definitely the Mediterranean (to me), the Baltic is the Aster Sea (seemingly), but where the hell is Atland?

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