SlimJim22 Posted July 15, 2010 #276 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Could be... The great comet which appeared at the time of the earthquake in Achaea and the tidal wave rose due west; In one sentence without giving it any great age, we have a great comet, earthquake and tidal wave all at once. Alewyn, I would probably be a 5, too bad you are going, I was just getting started. I recently moved up to 5 also. It was getting really good Alewyn. Keep us posted on your book release. The skeptics are a hard bunch to satisfy that is why they are skeptics and without them the discussion would soon die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSearcher Posted July 15, 2010 #277 Share Posted July 15, 2010 OK, I believe it is a good time to take stock. After a few weeks of debate (which I enjoyed) and three chapters of my book (although most of the debate is still around chapter 1) I have decided to score the participants’ views on the Oera Linda Book (and therefore also on my work). A score of 0 means the OLB is a total fraud with no substance whereas 10 would mean it is true without any doubt. So, herewith my (subjective) scores ( In alphabetical order): Abramelin 0 Alewyn 8 Cormac 0 Diechecker 0 Esson 0 Leonardo 0 Oniomancer 0 Qoais 1 Slim Jim 2 Swede 0 The Puzzler 3 The Searcher 0 This gives us a score of 14 out of a possible 120 or a probability of just under 12% that the Oera Linda Book is true. Any further debate, therefore, is really meaningless and I am sure you can now spend your energies on more deserving issues. Thank you all for your input. I appreciate it. I'm of a mind with Leonardo and partially like Puzzler, I think the OLB itself is a hoax yes. No question about it. However, it does not stop me from asking where the mythology used, even if in an altered state, is coming from. What the origin of it is. Debate and acquiring knowledge is never pointless, nor meaningless and to add that it could be beneficial to your own work. You get a fresh view from others about it, it can point to sources unknown to you, skills unknown to you or knowledge unknown to you. It's an endeavor with it's own merit, at least in my opinion. Take the 2193 BCE date and the fall of the Akkadian empire, for example. Your idea is an impact of some kind, with as result the Burckler crater and the climate change. My idea on the same subject, is a Bond event, which also fits the same result, a climate change of global proportions and fits in time line wise as well. I learn something new every day on this forum and I love every minute of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #278 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) Strange no one came up with Tollmann's hypothetical bolide theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tollmann's_hypothetical_bolide ... or with Carl Sagan's theory of the origin of the swastika: he suggested that the origin of that symbol lies in the way an ancient comet appeared in the heavens around 1500 BC, and that it's image was put down om paper by the ancient Chinese. But Sagan's comet would be way off from the date of 2193. Another interesting site about possible (recent) impacts: http://www.search.com/reference/Impact_event Edited July 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSearcher Posted July 15, 2010 #279 Share Posted July 15, 2010 My main problem with the OLB is, that almost all the facts and events, that are mentioned in it, are consistent with the knowledge you could expect from an 19th century scholar. I'm surprised that this is not more apparent to some. The OLB was allegedly given to Eelco Verwijs in 1867, then given to J.G. Ottema, who translated it and published it in 1872. Most dutch scholars on the subject, seem to agree that the authors are Cornelis Over de Linden, J.H. Halbertsma, Eelco Verwijs and François HaverSchmidt. All of these men were quite educated : - Cornelis Over de Linden was a master shipwright at the Royal Netherlands Dockyards at Helder. - J.H. Halbertsma was a Frisian lexicographer, preacher and linguist. He wrote the Lexicon Frisicum. - Eelco Verwijs was the provincial librarian of Friesland, he was also a linguist and wrote "De ontstaansgeschiedenis van de Middelnederlandsche Spraakkunst" (in 1867). His father was a preacher and himself had a fleeting brush with theology. - François HaverSchmidt was a poet and theology student. He studied theology in Leiden under J.H. Scholten and A. Kuenen, who were both "modernists", they taught their students to have a critical look on the bible. They wanted to bring the bible in line with natural sciences. Even J.G. Ottema, who translated the OLB was a classical language teacher and conrector at the "Stedelijk Gymnasium" in Leeuwarden. The trend we see developing here, should be quite obvious by now. They were all very well educated men, having full access to all the knowledge and science of the time. They all had some connection with theology and were for most parts convinced Frisians, some were even part of the "Fries Genootschap" (Provincial Frisian Society for the Cultivation of Frisian History, Archaeology, and Linguistics). The OLB, is an allegory of the 19th century struggle between the emerging liberal thinking school and fundamentalist orthodoxy, written from a modernist point of view, with a pinch of Frisian independance. Sounds complicated, but when you look at the OLB and get to grips with the social, cultural and literary implications, it makes sense. Of course one needs to be familiar with the cultural and social Dutch and Frisian heritage. I just found something interesting. Atland, according to the OLB, was the name of the land the Frisians initially came from and which was destroyed in 2193 BCE. Well, there is some strange coincidence here. Between 1679-1702, Olaus Rudbeck wrote a 3,000-page treatise in four volumes called Atlantica (Atland eller Manheim in Swedish) where he tried to prove that Sweden was Atlantis (called Atland in this book), the cradle of civilization, and Swedish the original language of Adam from which Latin and Hebrew had evolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #280 Share Posted July 15, 2010 I just found something interesting. Atland, according to the OLB, was the name of the land the Frisians initially came from and which was destroyed in 2193 BCE. Well, there is some strange coincidence here. Between 1679-1702, Olaus Rudbeck wrote a 3,000-page treatise in four volumes called Atlantica (Atland eller Manheim in Swedish) where he tried to prove that Sweden was Atlantis (called Atland in this book), the cradle of civilization, and Swedish the original language of Adam from which Latin and Hebrew had evolved. Searcher, I think you can forget about that being a coincidence, lol. But truth be told, the OLB Atland was not seen as the cradle of civilization. The whole OLB is about that other empire, and about that other empire being the cradle of civilization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSearcher Posted July 15, 2010 #281 Share Posted July 15, 2010 Searcher, I think you can forget about that being a coincidence, lol. But truth be told, the OLB Atland was not seen as the cradle of civilization. The whole OLB is about that other empire, and about that other empire being the cradle of civilization. Comes down to the same, since Atland was the center point of said civilization, before it's alleged destruction. Like I said, those guys had access to all the knowledge of the time, were particularly schooled in literature and theology, and were all pro Frisian independance. Put 2 and 2 together and there you have it. This said, they do use some interesting myths in their hoax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #282 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) Comes down to the same, since Atland was the center point of said civilization, before it's alleged destruction. Like I said, those guys had access to all the knowledge of the time, were particularly schooled in literature and theology, and were all pro Frisian independance. Put 2 and 2 together and there you have it. This said, they do use some interesting myths in their hoax. If you talk about the OLB Atland, then you are wrong: the OLB Atland was not known as center of civilization. This is the mistake many people make when they talk about the OLB Atland. Of the OLB Atland the only thing known is when it sank (2193 BC), well, according to the OLB. And if I am correct (I am not at all sure if I remember well), it's inhabitants were the evil Finda people. EDIT: I am right, and here's something for you, Searcher (I am glad at least one other person here is able to read Dutch, lol): Het Oera Linda Boek laat ons verder prachtig zien hoe velen klakkeloos van elkaar overschrijven. Zo staat in het OLB dat Atland door verdorven Finda's werd bewoond. Onze associatie van Atlantis met een hoge beschaving dateert namelijk pas van na 1882, toen Ignatius Donelly Atlantis: The Antediluvian World publiceerde. Iemand die graag meepraat over boeken die hij niet gelezen heeft, zal daardoor per abuis kunnen beweren dat Atlantis in het OLB door de beschaafde Frya's werd bewoond. We treffen die misvatting bij velen aan, natuurlijk bij Veeman, maar bijvoorbeeld ook bij Wim en Elli Rinsma in het theosofische blad Sunrise in 1980, en zelfs bij een man als Wim Zaal in De verlakkers uit 1991. http://www.skepsis.nl/oeralinda.html Btw, there was a time (a very short time) that I wanted to believe that this Atland was nothing else but Dogger Island, inhabited by the Fomorians, who are described somewhat similar to the Finda people. Maybe you will remember that I suggested that those Fomorians may have been descendents of Inuit people who crossed the Northern Atlantic and settled in Doggerland/Dogger Island. The Inuit could be seen as Asiatic people, much like the Finda people are being described in the OLB. . Edited July 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted July 15, 2010 #283 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) Yes, the OLB is a bit different. The older mansucripts say Friso and his men came from India (but I really can't check because I can't read Latin), the OLB says the Frisians/Geertmannen returned from India under the guidence/rulership of Friso. It just adds a bit more detail to the originals ofthe 17th century. Doesn't it bother you that the only other sources for Friso, Adel, Ubbo, Asega Ascar, and many other Frisian rulers is only to be found in early 17th century fabrications, KNOWN fabrications. Fabrications to create a great history that goes far back, and all that to gain independence? Btw, I found something (in German) that seems to be some sort of desription of what these 17th century manuscripts are telling us about Friso and India: http://gratis-sagen.de/johann-georg-theodor-graesse/sagenbuch-des-preussischen-staats-zweiter-band/10.-schleswig-holstein/1273.-der-ursprung-der-friesen http://translate.google.nl/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fgratis-sagen.de%2Fjohann-georg-theodor-graesse%2Fsagenbuch-des-preussischen-staats-zweiter-band%2F10.-schleswig-holstein%2F1273.-der-ursprung-der-friesen&sl=de&tl=en You say they were early 17th century fabrications but it does say Relying on traditional accounts, which they believed were ancient, Petrus and Furmerius established a line of legendary Frisian monarchs, Relying on traditional accounts, before early 17th century. The thing is, the opener of the Book is dated less than 20 years after the beginning of their end. Stedinger revolt 1233-34, that caused Pope Gregory IX to call on a crusade against them, marked the decline of Frisian freedom. Sure, the OLB gives them an old history but are you sure these people are not actually deserving of it and you are taking away their achievements by thinking they have done nothing more than create elaborate stories? Everywhere I look Googling away here, they are there, their language, writing, people, whatever, they are there, even the Anglo-Saxon invasion (?) of England, it says Frisians as a group, they held their own in history and to me, they seem to dominate the whole landscape as I look into them more and more. These people have obviously fought for themselves and their freedoms for a long time, have been banded together for ages and been recorded through out history for various reasons, I'm not so sure their history is so made up, they truly do seem to be a very ancient people who have stayed together as one for just as long, cherishing their liberty and freedom, just like Freya's laws told them to. Edited July 15, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #284 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) You say they were early 17th century fabrications but it does say Relying on traditional accounts, which they believed were ancient, Petrus and Furmerius established a line of legendary Frisian monarchs, Relying on traditional accounts, before early 17th century. The thing is, the opener of the Book is dated less than 20 years after the beginning of their end. Stedinger revolt 1233-34, that caused Pope Gregory IX to call on a crusade against them, marked the decline of Frisian freedom. Imagine the early Middle Ages and you are a pagan in a continent being taken over by Christianity and the Catholics, if you really want to hold on to your values and freedom of rights, your early religion of the Earth Mother you have to hide, pretend or fight, these Frisians seem to have it in them to have became what they are because of these loyalties. Sure, the OLB gives them an old history but are you sure these people are not actually deserving of it and you are taking away their achievements by thinking they have done nothing more than create elaborate stories? Everywhere I look Googling away here, they are there, their language, writing, people, whatever, they are there, even the Anglo-Saxon invasion (?) of England, it says Frisians as a group, they held their own in history and to me, they seem to dominate the whole landscape as I look into them more and more. These people have obviously fought for themselves and their freedoms for a long time, have been banded together for ages and been recorded through out history for various reasons, I'm not so sure their history is so made up, they truly do seem to be a very ancient people who have stayed together as one for just as long, cherishing their liberty and freedom, just like Freya's laws told them to. Relying on tradional accounts.... yeah. But earlier I also said that even contemporaries (16th and 17th century Frisians) considered these works to be fabulations. Btw, I just found out even Ottema in his intro to his translation of the OLB mentioned this "Ocko Scharlenis", but he consideres this Ocko (or Okke) as a true ancient source on Frisian history. Conveniently forgetting all other Frisian historians considered it fake. The Frisians were all over the North Sea, true, but that was a long time after the period of the OLB. And these Frisian historians knew about that, and no doubt used that knowledge. . Edited July 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted July 15, 2010 #285 Share Posted July 15, 2010 I'm of a mind with Leonardo and partially like Puzzler, I think the OLB itself is a hoax yes. No question about it. However, it does not stop me from asking where the mythology used, even if in an altered state, is coming from. What the origin of it is. Debate and acquiring knowledge is never pointless, nor meaningless and to add that it could be beneficial to your own work. You get a fresh view from others about it, it can point to sources unknown to you, skills unknown to you or knowledge unknown to you. It's an endeavor with it's own merit, at least in my opinion. Take the 2193 BCE date and the fall of the Akkadian empire, for example. Your idea is an impact of some kind, with as result the Burckler crater and the climate change. My idea on the same subject, is a Bond event, which also fits the same result, a climate change of global proportions and fits in time line wise as well. I learn something new every day on this forum and I love every minute of it. Bravo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #286 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) I forgot to add this to my former post to The Searcher: How the bad times came: During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men's hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. Aldland, called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water. It was not only in Finda's land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift. During three years this continued, but at length it ceased, and forests became visible. Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland (Germany). Troops of Finda's people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force. http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb22.htm So Atland = Finda's land. Now isn't it strange that the Finda people were supposed to live east of Germany (Twiskland= Tussen-land = In Between - Land)? OK, I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. EDIT: Found something more: In vroegere tijden huisde Findas volk meest al te gader over hun moeders geboorteland, met name Aldland, dat nu in zee ligt. Zij waren dus ver af. Daarom hadden wij ook geen oorlog. Toen zij verdreven zijn en herwaarts kwamen om te rooven, toen kwam er van zelf landverdediging, heermannen, koningen en oorlog. Voor die alle kwamen inzettingen, en uit de inzettingen kwamen wetten. http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_the002thet01_01/_the002thet01_01_0009.php (by Ottema) == In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars. For all this there were established regulations, and out of the regulations came fixed laws. http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb08.htm (=Sandbach's translation) So again, it's Finda's people (or Finns) that were the inhabitants of Aldland/Atland. But now this: Sixteen hundred years ago (she writes, 593 B.C. *), Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr † (Cashmere) that is "extraordinary." There was a child born whose mother was the daughter of a king, and whose father was a high-priest. In order to hide the shame they were obliged to renounce their own blood. Therefore it was taken out of the town to poor people. As the boy grew up, nothing was concealed from him, so he did all in his power to acquire wisdom. His intellect was so great that he understood everything that he saw or heard. The people regarded him with respect, and the priests were afraid of his questions. http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb43.htm (Sandbach's translation) It appears Atland/Aldland has nothing to do with some mythical land 'in the west' or Atlantic... Maybe (following the OLB) the Finda arrived in that new country (Kashmir at it's center) after their original homeland sank beneath the waves. Would that indicate (if it's all true) that the Finda came from the Atlantic? Doesn't look like it. Or instead from some submerged continent/land near India? It's getting complicated, isn't it? It is. Some will start thinking about 'Sundaland', but that land was long gone/submerged before 2193 BC. The Finda were east Asian, Mongoloid people (straight dark hair, 'yellow' skin, as described in the OLB). From the OLB (I quote Alewyn now): Here (Kadik) they bought all kinds of stores, but Tutia the burgh-femme would not allow them to settle there. When they were ready they began to disagree. Tunis wished to sail through the straits to the Middel Sea, and enter the service of the rich king of Egiptaland, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda's people. Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. Sooo, Tunis entered the Middel Sea, and Inka went his own way, to find a remnant of Atland. Must have been a puzzling journey: did he go west across the Atlantic, or did he sail to somewhere near India?? OK, your turn. . Edited July 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted July 15, 2010 #287 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) Relying on tradional accounts.... yeah. But earlier I also said that even contemporaries (17th century Frisians) considered these works as fabulations. Btw, I just found out even Ottema in his intro to his translation of the OLB mentioned this "Ocko Scharlenis", but he consideres this Ocko (or Okke) as a true ancient source on Frisian history. Conveniently forgetting all other Frisian historians considered it fake. The Frisians were all over the North Sea, true, but that was a long time after the period of the OLB. And these Frisian historians knew about that, and no doubt used that knowledge. . Who are these Frisians anyway is what I wanted to know.. So, I'm thinking about who might know some more about them and think Bede might, he does - so I Google up some Bede info and find this: The fifth book brings the story up to Bede's day, and includes an account of missionary work in Frisia, and of the conflict with the British church over the correct dating of Easter But before I even get to that I notice this: A brief account of Christianity in Roman Britain, including the martyrdom of St Alban, is followed by the story of Augustine's mission to England in 597, which brought Christianity to the Anglo-Saxons.[4] The second book begins with the death of Gregory the Great in 604, and follows the further progress of Christianity in Kent and the first attempts to evangelise Northumbria.[37] These ended in disaster when Penda, the pagan king of Mercia, killed the newly Christian Edwin of Northumbria at the Battle of Hatfield Chase in about 632 I notice it because I know that the Frisians as Anglo-Saxons came into Britain at Northumbria and in fact, Northumbrians have the closest language in English to Frisian. I'm thinking about Penda, a Pagan King of Mercia, thinking he might be someone worth checking out some more. Penda was a son of Pybba and said to be a descendant of Icel, with a lineage purportedly extending back to Woden. The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle gives his descent as follows: Penda was Pybba's offspring, Pybba was Cryda's offspring, Cryda Cynewald's offspring, Cynewald Cnebba's offspring, Cnebba Icel's offspring, Icel Eomer's offspring, Eomer Angeltheow's offspring, Angeltheow Offa's offspring, Offa Wermund's offspring, Wermund Wihtlaeg's offspring, Wihtlaeg Woden's offspring. Wodin, I should have guessed, well, I did guess. Bit dodgey but you never know... It is noteworthy that, despite the formulaic claim to descent from Woden, some suggest that none of the names of Penda, his father Pybba and his son Peada have very convincing Anglo-Saxon etymologies.[4][5] Some linguists have classed Penda as a British name.[6] However, others have suggested that it comes from an Old English word meaning "pledge". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penda_of_Mercia Penda (died November 15, 655)[1] was a 7th-century King of Mercia, the Anglo-Saxon kingdom in what is today the English Midlands. A pagan at a time when Christianity was taking hold in many of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms, Penda participated in the defeat of the powerful Northumbrian king Edwin at the Battle of Hatfield Chase in 633 Mercia...did I say a pagan in a time when Christianity was taking hold.. It stuck out like a sore thumb that Coinred was a King of the Mercians. COINRED, KING OF THE MERCIANS, AND OFFA, OF THE EAST SAXONS, ENDED THEIR DAYS AT ROME, IN THE MONASTIC HABIT. OF THE LIFE AND DEATH OF BISHOP WILFRID. (A.D. 709.) IN the fourth year of the reign of Osred, Coinred, who had for some time nobly governed the kingdom of the Mercians, And then we have Coenred... In which year the holy man of God, Egbert, departed to our Lord, as has been said above, on Easter day; and immediately after Easter, that is, on the 9th of May, Osric, king of the Northumbrians, departed this life, after he had reigned eleven years, and appointed Ceolwulf, brother to Coenred, who had reigned before him, his successor; So I try and find where Coenred might be in the OLB and cannot exactly tell but notice he comes after this part: Sixteen hundred years ago (she writes, 593 B.C.), Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. So, Coenred would have been around some time after that...the first one above say 709AD so it may be related. WRITING OF KONERÊD. My forefathers have written this book in succession. I will do this, the more because there exists no longer in my state any citadel on which events are inscribed as used to be the case He tells us we won't be finding the writings on the citadels anytime soon. I have not compared this exactly to the book just yet but was taken by those few co-incidences already. I didn't even get to the Monastery and the Frisians yet, sorry. OOOPS I SEE I MADE AN ERROR ON THE DATE - IGNORE THIS POST UNTIL I SORT IT OUT THANKS. Edited July 15, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #288 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) "Who are these Frisians anyway is what I wanted to know.." I know you wanted to know, and I think I have now posted like 6 names in total, sigh... Anyway, you better check what I wrote in my former post (it's a bit long, sorry). There you will see an inconsistency (a HUGE one) in the OLB. Never mind Bede, the Frisian historians knew of Bede. . Edited July 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted July 15, 2010 #289 Share Posted July 15, 2010 "Who are these Frisians anyway is what I wanted to know.." I know you wanted to know, and I think I have now posted like 6 names in total, sigh... Anyway, you better check what I wrote in my former post (it's a bit long, sorry). There you will see an inconsistency (a HUGE one) in the OLB. Never mind Bede, the Frisian historians knew of Bede. . lol I know some names, I mean WHO were they before they settled in Friesland. I gotta laugh at my stuff up above as I reread over your Post 212, yes, I'm still back there...so you reckon the characters are real but they have bumped them back somewhat ie: Friso and co.? Maybe Coenred or however you want to spell it. Or can we find a Coenred in 500BC, your King List started with Friso before, where did you find that list?? in post 212 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #290 Share Posted July 15, 2010 lol I know some names, I mean WHO were they before they settled in Friesland. I gotta laugh at my stuff up above as I reread over your Post 212, yes, I'm still back there...so you reckon the characters are real but they have bumped them back somewhat ie: Friso and co.? Maybe Coenred or however you want to spell it. Or can we find a Coenred in 500BC, your King List started with Friso before, where did you find that list?? in post 212 Well, don't worry, I have that too: I think I found something, just to discover I am way off, lol. Ah, yes, my mistake, I thought you meant with "who are those Frisians" the Frisian historians/fabulators of the 16th and 17th century who's work very probably was used for creating the OLB. And yes, that is what I am trying to say the whole time: the Frisian historians did know of all these ancient manuscripts, whether they be Latin, Greek, or Anglo-Saxon. That is why I try to stick to the text of the OLB itself, and see where things go wrong in that manuscript. That's what I call sawing down the tree at the bottom, heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted July 15, 2010 #291 Share Posted July 15, 2010 I forgot to add this to my former post to The Searcher: How the bad times came: During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men's hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. Aldland, called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water. It was not only in Finda's land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift. During three years this continued, but at length it ceased, and forests became visible. Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland (Germany). Troops of Finda's people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force. http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb22.htm So Atland = Finda's land. Now isn't it strange that the Finda people were supposed to live east of Germany (Twiskland= Tussen-land = In Between - Land)? OK, I could be wrong, but that's what I remember. EDIT: Found something more: In vroegere tijden huisde Findas volk meest al te gader over hun moeders geboorteland, met name Aldland, dat nu in zee ligt. Zij waren dus ver af. Daarom hadden wij ook geen oorlog. Toen zij verdreven zijn en herwaarts kwamen om te rooven, toen kwam er van zelf landverdediging, heermannen, koningen en oorlog. Voor die alle kwamen inzettingen, en uit de inzettingen kwamen wetten. http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_the002thet01_01/_the002thet01_01_0009.php (by Ottema) == In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars. For all this there were established regulations, and out of the regulations came fixed laws. http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb08.htm (=Sandbach's translation) So again, it's Finda's people (or Finns) that were the inhabitants of Aldland/Atland. But now this: Sixteen hundred years ago (she writes, 593 B.C. *), Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr † (Cashmere) that is "extraordinary." There was a child born whose mother was the daughter of a king, and whose father was a high-priest. In order to hide the shame they were obliged to renounce their own blood. Therefore it was taken out of the town to poor people. As the boy grew up, nothing was concealed from him, so he did all in his power to acquire wisdom. His intellect was so great that he understood everything that he saw or heard. The people regarded him with respect, and the priests were afraid of his questions. http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb43.htm (Sandbach's translation) It appears Atland/Aldland has nothing to do with some mythical land 'in the west' or Atlantic... Maybe (following the OLB) the Finda arrived in that new country (Kashmir at it's center) after their original homeland sank beneath the waves. Would that indicate (if it's all true) that the Finda came from the Atlantic? Doesn't look like it. Or instead from some submerged continent/land near India? It's getting complicated, isn't it? It is. Some will start thinking about 'Sundaland', but that land was long gone/submerged before 2193 BC. The Finda were east Asian, Mongoloid people (straight dark hair, 'yellow' skin, as described in the OLB). From the OLB (I quote Alewyn now): Here (Kadik) they bought all kinds of stores, but Tutia the burgh-femme would not allow them to settle there. When they were ready they began to disagree. Tunis wished to sail through the straits to the Middel Sea, and enter the service of the rich king of Egiptaland, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda's people. Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. Sooo, Tunis entered the Middel Sea, and Inka went his own way, to find a remnant of Atland. Must have been a puzzling journey: did he go west across the Atlantic, or did he sail to somewhere near India?? OK, your turn. . OK, I'll try again... How about Finda's land is NOT Atland. Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another. On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea, on which no one but us might or could sail; on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland (Tusschenland, Duitschland), through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts. It says to me Finda's people lived on the other side of the thick forests of Germany (Twiskland), when they burned and their land was burnt they came through... I think Atland was Freya's land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #292 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) OK, I'll try again... How about Finda's land is NOT Atland. Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another. On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea, on which no one but us might or could sail; on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland (Tusschenland, Duitschland), through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts. It says to me Finda's people lived on the other side of the thick forests of Germany (Twiskland), when they burned and their land was burnt they came through... I think Atland was Freya's land. Atland is MOST CERTAINLY NOT Freya's land. If that is what you think, read my post again. It's a common mistake of many people to think Atland was the land of Freya's people. My quotes from the OLB all say it was the land of the Findas. According to Sandbach's translation from Ottema's Ducth version: In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars. For all this there were established regulations, and out of the regulations came fixed laws. And Sandbach writes Finns, but it should be Findas. . --- Btw, you asked where I got that king list from... hmmm... what can you not read in post 212? http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&view=findpost&p=3490703 ( heheh, on wine again, eh? lol, I will be soon too, hahaha) Edited July 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted July 15, 2010 #293 Share Posted July 15, 2010 It became a land full of Finda's people though after it submerged, but not before, I don't think.. Troops of Finda’s people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force. Finda's people do not seem to be Finns... They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alewyn Posted July 15, 2010 #294 Share Posted July 15, 2010 I understand your frustration, Alewyn, but I have to say I am a little disappointed. Leo, I am also disappointed. From what I have seen on this site there are very knowledgeable persons on specific subjects such as genetics, linguistics, etc. Perhaps I am naïve, but I was really hoping to get some positive and objective input from them. Instead it would appear that some only use this site to boost their own egos and to get recognition here which they do not get elsewhere. To me the issue at hand is far greater than any individual. Although my book is available on Amazon.com, I tried to prove my bona fides by putting the book on this website for free so that people could read and debate it. There is no doubt in my mind that there are shortcomings and mistakes in the book but I am also convinced that a substantial number of my facts are correct. People seem to think that being a critic is a status symbol but in my career of almost 40 years I came to realize that criticism is, for the most part, only destructive. It is very seldom that a critic contributes to the furtherance of a cause and, quite frankly, anybody can be a critic. I have read a lot about the “Hoax” hypothesis and I tried to rather concentrate on the possibility that the Oera Linda Book may be true. Now, you do not prove that in one or two chapters but after, say chapters 4 or 5, I am fairly convinced that most objective observers will be more inclined towards accepting the OLB’s credibility. Some questions that have been nagging at me for a long time are the following: Whoever wrote the OLB must have had a remarkable knowledge of European, Greek, Middel-Eastern and Indian history. If this was Haverscmidt, Verwijs, Oera Linda, Ottema or whoever, what other evidence do we have of other literary work on the subject that came from them? Surely such a person or persons would not have kept this knowledge only to produce a single hoax. In addition, they were highly educated people from different backgrounds. Would they really have risked their professional status and integrity for a work of fiction dressed up as truth? I honestly do not think so. To me this is the more unlikely scenario. Another thing that bothers me is that a number of discoveries made after the OLB’s first appearance are just plainly ignored in this debate. I do not doubt that 19th century scholars were well read but there are certain things that even they did not know at the time – yet the OLB is fairly accurate about these (I mentioned some before) . Even if we assume that all the facts were available in 1867 when the OLB first surfaced, we must at least acknowledge that these dates and events were placed in the right context and then we must ask ourselves: “How much of the rest is true?” We all have been taught that democracy and our alphabet came from Greece, Monotheism came from the Middle East, our numerals came from Arabia and India, algebra and trigonometry came from Egypt, Chinese Mariners were the first to navigate the oceans, etc. etc. In what societies today do we find the highest standard of living , democracy and the rule of law, private ownership, equality of the sexes (well, sort off), free enterprise, freedom of religion and respect for the individual, freedom of speech, etc.? Yet, nowhere do we give any credit to Europeans. According to historians West Europeans were some of the more primitive people or barbarians some 2500 years ago. Something just does not add up. By comparing the Oera Linda Book’s version of history to the present, things just seem to come into focus. Some characters apparently use the OLB as a religious document. Well, if it wasn’t the OLB, it would have been JRR Tolkien, Terry Pratchett or George Orwell. Do yourself a favour and approach the OLB with an open mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #295 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) It became a land full of Finda's people though after it submerged, but not before, I don't think.. Troops of Finda’s people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force. Finda's people do not seem to be Finns... They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect. ...sigh........ I actually read an copied from the original text. jeesh: THE BOOK OF ADELA'S FOLLOWERS Chapter VII: Universal law - 13. In early times almost all of Finda's people lived together in their mother-country, especially [=Dutch 'met name'] Aldland is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars. 14. For all this there were established regulations, and out of the regulations came fixed laws. The word in the OLB for Finda is, ... FINDA. "in era tyyda hemadon finda.s folk mest algadur invr hjara moder.s barta.land mit noma ald.land that nw vnder.ne se leith." "in earlier times most of Finda's people lived all together in it's mother's birth-land, especially/particularly (HELP!! dunno what a good translation in english is for 'met name'. "by name?" nah) Aldland that now lies under the sea" Anyway, the original text of the OLB says it were the Findas living in their motherland Aldland, Sandbach then thinks it better to call them 'Finns". Not my fault, but his... . EDIT: That is why I say: try to read the original text, although it will be a severe pain in the head. And don't ever say that being able to speak and understand Dutch is not important here... The only word that I had some problems with in that OLB sentence was 'hemadon', but it's nothing else than German "Heim", or English "home".. or Dutch "heem". . Edited July 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #296 Share Posted July 15, 2010 I could have saved myself a lot of trouble if only I could have found the piece of text in the pdf I have. Well, here is the orginal again (from an online version of Overwijn's book, the book I use, aside form what I find elsewhere online) : In êra tyda hêmadon Findas folk mêst algadur invr hjara moders bårta-lând, mit nôma ald-lând that nw vnder-ne sê lêith; hja wêron thus fêr-of, thêrvmbe nêdon wi âk nên orloch, tha hja vrdrêven send ånd hêinda kêmon to râwane, thâ kêm-er fon selva lândwêr hêrmanna kêninggar ånd orloch, vr altham kêmon setma ånd uta setma kêmon êwa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted July 15, 2010 #297 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) We all have been taught that democracy and our alphabet came from Greece, Monotheism came from the Middle East, our numerals came from Arabia and India, algebra and trigonometry came from Egypt, Chinese Mariners were the first to navigate the oceans, etc. etc. In what societies today do we find the highest standard of living , democracy and the rule of law, private ownership, equality of the sexes (well, sort off), free enterprise, freedom of religion and respect for the individual, freedom of speech, etc.? Yet, nowhere do we give any credit to Europeans. According to historians West Europeans were some of the more primitive people or barbarians some 2500 years ago. Something just does not add up. By comparing the Oera Linda Book’s version of history to the present, things just seem to come into focus. Some characters apparently use the OLB as a religious document. Well, if it wasn’t the OLB, it would have been JRR Tolkien, Terry Pratchett or George Orwell. Do yourself a favour and approach the OLB with an open mind. It is tenuous to link the state of culture today with the notion that advanced modern cultures meant their ancient predecessors were similarly advanced (for the time). If we were to consider this a viable theory, then the African cultures should be the most advanced in the world. There are many reasons why a particular culture/region advances with respect other cultures/regions, but longevity is not necessarily one of them. I have no doubt the inhabitants of Central and Western Europe had cultures did not lag too far behind the advancement of the Eastern European/Middle Eastern cultures of the time. However, the latter had a serious advantage (at the time) in their climate, which suited the building of more (or larger) permanent settlements. The word in the OLB for Finda is, ... FINDA. "in era tyyda hemadon finda.s folk mest algadur invr hjara moder.s barta.land mit noma ald.land that nw vnder.ne se leith." "in earlier times most of Finda's people lived all together in it's mother's birth-land, especially/particularly (HELP!! dunno what a good translation in english is for 'met name'. "by name?" nah) Aldland that now lies under the sea" Abe, I believe the word you are looking for is "specifically". Edited July 15, 2010 by Leonardo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #298 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) Abe, I believe the word you are looking for is "specifically". Ah, yes, that's the word I was looking for. Thanks Leonardo. Btw, I have another little gem here... The best inspirational thoughts I get when I am standing under the shower or on the john/loo/toilet (what's that thing?), lol. I thought, "Finda..finda....finda...what's the connection with India? ..... Hey !! In ancient Eurpean manuscripts the letter -f- is used for both -s- and -f-.... !!! " Heh, and then we would get "Sinda" instead of "Finda", or better: Sindh (pronounced Sindhi) is one of the four provinces of Pakistan and historically is home to the Sindhi people. It is also locally known as the "Mehran" and "Bab-ul-Islam" ,The Door to Islam, because Islam in the Indian subcontinent was first introduced from Sindh. Different cultural and ethnic groups also reside in Sindh including Urdu-speaking Muslim refugees who migrated to Pakistan from India upon independence as well as the people migrated from other provinces after independence. The neighbouring regions of Sindh are Balochistan to the west and north, Punjab to the north, Gujarat and Rajasthan to the southeast and east, and the Arabian Sea to the south. The main language is Sindhi. The name is derived from Sanskrit, and was known to the Assyrians (as early as the seventh century BCE) as Sinda, to the Greeks as Sinthus, to the Romans as Sindus, to the Persians as Abisind, to the Arabs as Al-Sind, and to the Chinese as Sintow. To the Javanese the Sindhis have long been known as the Santri. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindh The only problem here is of course the description of the OLB Finda people: straight black hair and yellow skin. The Dravidians don't look like that, nor the socalled lighter 'Aryans' of India/Pakistan. But change only one letter (and not a bad change, I'd like to say myself), and maybe some things will lighten up a bit. If the guys who created the OLB wanted to add a few people still unknown in history, just change one letter of the name of a known people. It's a change used many times in error, but this time it was intentionally. (just one note: in medieval times the undercast -f- was used for both -s- and -f- . But for the capital -F- they used -Ph-, but I am not sure if they always did that. Anyone?) Suddenly its sounds reasonable that Kashmir lay in the center of the land of the Finda people.... Now where the hell was Aldland/Atland?? ===== EDIT: Omg, I already suggested, based on place/area names in Friesland, that "Egypt" was nothing more than an area called "Egypte" near Ooststellingwerf, and area called that way because of the gypsies who were setteled there, that that "King of Egiptaland" of the OLB was no one else but a rich gypsy king. Here we go again: The Sinda/Finda aka Egyptians/Gyspsies : Sinti or Sinta or Sinte (sing. masc. Sinto; sing. fem. Sintisa) is the name of a Romani or Gypsy population in Europe.[1] Traditionally nomadic, today only a small percentage of the group remains unsettled. In earlier times, they frequently lived on the outskirts of communities, generally in squalor. The Sinti speak a dialect of the Romani language called "Romanes", which has a primarily Romani vocabulary but some grammatical differences, and exhibits strong German influence. The origin of the name "Sinti/Sinte" is uncertain. It can be shown to have been adopted in the 18th century, possibly from a German-based secret language. It is often compared to the name of the Sindhi of South Asia, a notion popular among the Sinti themselves, but there is no basis for this comparison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinti OK, I will stop for today. . Edited July 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted July 15, 2010 #299 Share Posted July 15, 2010 (edited) Hmm, ok, I won't stop right away. The origin of the name "Sinti/Sinte" is uncertain. It can be shown to have been adopted in the 18th century, possibly from a German-based secret language. It is often compared to the name of the Sindhi of South Asia, a notion popular among the Sinti themselves, but there is no basis for this comparison Well, if you remember what I posted earlier, these gypsies have every right to call themselves Sinti/a/e as a name derived from Sindh. And I also said the very probably originate in the Punjab. -- For the OLB believers this may all seem farfetched, but this is just another coincidence in a long string of coincidences that should give you some second thoughts about the OLB. == Hahahahahaaaaaaa !!!! I don;t think I will survive all this... Especially for The Searcher (because he is able to read Dutch, as the Belgium guy he is): http://www.vkblog.nl/bericht/134654/Het_beloofde_land This is a guy from Holland who created a hoax (well, it's more of joke) about the true homeland of the gypsies, and that homeland *"Het Beloofde Land" or Promised Land) is the socalled "Randstad" in Holland (a conglomerate of cities consisting of Amsterdam, Utrecht, Rotterdam Leiden and The Hague) and the northern provinces, Friesland and Groningen. And proof of all that is a manuscript found in some terp (artificial mound) in Friesland. Even if you can't read Dutch, I do hope you notice the abbreviation "OLP" in his piece of art. , Edited July 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted July 16, 2010 #300 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Ah, yes, that's the word I was looking for. Thanks Leonardo. Btw, I have another little gem here... The best inspirational thoughts I get when I am standing under the shower or on the john/loo/toilet (what's that thing?), lol. I thought, "Finda..finda....finda...what's the connection with India? ..... Hey !! In ancient Eurpean manuscripts the letter -f- is used for both -s- and -f-.... !!! " Heh, and then we would get "Sinda" instead of "Finda", or better: Sindh (pronounced Sindhi) is one of the four provinces of Pakistan and historically is home to the Sindhi people. It is also locally known as the "Mehran" and "Bab-ul-Islam" ,The Door to Islam, because Islam in the Indian subcontinent was first introduced from Sindh. Different cultural and ethnic groups also reside in Sindh including Urdu-speaking Muslim refugees who migrated to Pakistan from India upon independence as well as the people migrated from other provinces after independence. The neighbouring regions of Sindh are Balochistan to the west and north, Punjab to the north, Gujarat and Rajasthan to the southeast and east, and the Arabian Sea to the south. The main language is Sindhi. The name is derived from Sanskrit, and was known to the Assyrians (as early as the seventh century BCE) as Sinda, to the Greeks as Sinthus, to the Romans as Sindus, to the Persians as Abisind, to the Arabs as Al-Sind, and to the Chinese as Sintow. To the Javanese the Sindhis have long been known as the Santri. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindh The only problem here is of course the description of the OLB Finda people: straight black hair and yellow skin. The Dravidians don't look like that, nor the socalled lighter 'Aryans' of India/Pakistan. But change only one letter (and not a bad change, I'd like to say myself), and maybe some things will lighten up a bit. If the guys who created the OLB wanted to add a few people still unknown in history, just change one letter of the name of a known people. It's a change used many times in error, but this time it was intentionally. (just one note: in medieval times the undercast -f- was used for both -s- and -f- . But for the capital -F- they used -Ph-, but I am not sure if they always did that. Anyone?) Suddenly its sounds reasonable that Kashmir lay in the center of the land of the Finda people.... Now where the hell was Aldland/Atland?? ===== EDIT: Omg, I already suggested, based on place/area names in Friesland, that "Egypt" was nothing more than an area called "Egypte" near Ooststellingwerf, and area called that way because of the gypsies who were setteled there, that that "King of Egiptaland" of the OLB was no one else but a rich gypsy king. Here we go again: The Sinda/Finda aka Egyptians/Gyspsies : Sinti or Sinta or Sinte (sing. masc. Sinto; sing. fem. Sintisa) is the name of a Romani or Gypsy population in Europe.[1] Traditionally nomadic, today only a small percentage of the group remains unsettled. In earlier times, they frequently lived on the outskirts of communities, generally in squalor. The Sinti speak a dialect of the Romani language called "Romanes", which has a primarily Romani vocabulary but some grammatical differences, and exhibits strong German influence. The origin of the name "Sinti/Sinte" is uncertain. It can be shown to have been adopted in the 18th century, possibly from a German-based secret language. It is often compared to the name of the Sindhi of South Asia, a notion popular among the Sinti themselves, but there is no basis for this comparison http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinti OK, I will stop for today. . Please do.... I can't keep up. lol OK, so you think we have again thought the Sindi were in India when they were actually the gypsies who came into Friesland and are known as the Sinti, a recent name given they aquired that is a secret German language....another hint it is local but looks worldly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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