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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


Riaan

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Hmmm, so Django Reinhardt is a Sinti hey? His name is Romani, which is as you know, gypsy, but it says this:

Analysis of the Romani language has shown that it is closely related to those spoken in central and northern India. This linguistic relationship is believed to indicate the geographical origins of the Romani people (Roma, Sinti, etc.). Loanwords in Romani make it possible to trace the pattern of their migration westwards. They came originally from the Indian subcontinent or what is now northern India and parts of Pakistan.

Romani and Punjabi share some words and similar grammatical systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_language

So, although you seem to say the Sinti are local to Friesland, I note your follow on comment, I'm not sure if you are trying to save your ass or not but you know that it does have a connection to India, so you say then... they are likely to originate in the Punjab.

So, now I'm lost, which one are you going on.....?

They came from the Punjab, the Romani gypsies, the Sinti?

or they are a local people of Friesland?

or came from where...?

I was following you, I thought, then got lost there.

Edit to add: It shares an innovative pattern of past-tense person concord with the languages of the Northwest, such as Kashmiri and Shina.

Linguistic evaluation carried out in the nineteenth century by Pott (1845) and Miklosich (1882–1888) showed that the Romani language is to be a New Indo-Aryan language (NIA), not a Middle Indo-Aryan (MIA), establishing that the ancestors of the Romani could not have left India significantly earlier than AD 1000.

I note the late date of 1000AD.

Edited by The Puzzler
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I'll wait and see what you reckon on the Sinti some more Abe, I know when I write a post I expect everyone else to clearly get what I'm saying, but they don't..

Anyways, the Nordic Bronze Age I reckon offers up some answers:

Even though Scandinavians joined the European Bronze Age cultures fairly late through trade, Scandinavian sites present rich and well-preserved objects made of wool, wood and imported Central European bronze and gold. The Scandinavians adopted many important European and Mediterranean symbols while adapting these to create a unique Nordic style. Mycenaean Greece, the Villanovan culture, Phoenicia and Ancient Egypt have all been identified as possible sources of influence for Scandinavian artwork from this period. The foreign influence is believed to have been due to the amber trade. Amber found in Mycenaean graves from this period originates from the Baltic Sea, so it is reasonable to assume that the culture that arose in the Nordic Bronze Age constituted one supply end of the so-called Amber Road. Many rock carvings depict ships, and the large stone burial monuments known as stone ships suggest that shipping played an important role. Thousands of rock carvings depict ships, most probably representing sewn plank built canoes for warfare, fishing and trade. These may have a history as far back as the neolithic period and continue in to the Pre-Roman Iron Age, as shown by the Hjortspring boat.[2]

Bronze Age burial mound (Bronsåldershög vid Gårdstånga, Skåne, Sweden)There are many mounds and rock carving sites from the period. Numerous artifacts of bronze and gold are found. No written language existed in the Nordic countries during the Bronze Age. The rock carvings have been dated through comparison with depicted artifacts, for example bronze axes and swords. (There are also numerous Nordic Stone Age rock carvings in the north of Scandinavia, mostly portraying elk.)

OK, so from 1700BC -500BC we have this culture in the North with large boats, trading amber with Phoenicia, Egypt, Mycenaean Greece, placing it in an early timeframe...

Large boats, they are mentioned in the OLB, great sailing peoples.

One of my fave items is the Trundholm Sun chariot:

200px-Solvogn.jpg

The story of Helios pulling is sun chariot and the connection to Phaethon here, as well as the mention of this being a Western myth that the Celts know well leads to to think the myth originates in the Northern Sea area, as I think most of Greek myth does.

If the Mycenaeans did trade with the people of the Baltic, what is stopping them bringing back the laws of Finda and Freya and learning about the Gods and Athena etc and then putting that into Greece? The large boat connection and style is a bit suss too when comparing with Phoenicia, how did they start this large maritime thing, sailing to Cadiz by 1000BC? I don't think it's impossible at all that the boats and sailing knowledge came into the coastal area of Phoenicia by these Northern people. Via Libya.

Edit to add link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

Edited by The Puzzler
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Hmmm, so Django Reinhardt is a Sinti hey? His name is Romani, which is as you know, gypsy, but it says this:

Analysis of the Romani language has shown that it is closely related to those spoken in central and northern India. This linguistic relationship is believed to indicate the geographical origins of the Romani people (Roma, Sinti, etc.). Loanwords in Romani make it possible to trace the pattern of their migration westwards. They came originally from the Indian subcontinent or what is now northern India and parts of Pakistan.

Romani and Punjabi share some words and similar grammatical systems

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_language

So, although you seem to say the Sinti are local to Friesland, I note your follow on comment, I'm not sure if you are trying to save your ass or not but you know that it does have a connection to India, so you say then... they are likely to originate in the Punjab.

So, now I'm lost, which one are you going on.....?

They came from the Punjab, the Romani gypsies, the Sinti?

or they are a local people of Friesland?

or came from where...?

I was following you, I thought, then got lost there.

Edit to add: It shares an innovative pattern of past-tense person concord with the languages of the Northwest, such as Kashmiri and Shina.

Linguistic evaluation carried out in the nineteenth century by Pott (1845) and Miklosich (1882–1888) showed that the Romani language is to be a New Indo-Aryan language (NIA), not a Middle Indo-Aryan (MIA), establishing that the ancestors of the Romani could not have left India significantly earlier than AD 1000.

I note the late date of 1000AD.

The Sinti or Sinta or Sinte is the name given to them in the 15th century. And although the link says it's not sure their name is derived from Sindh, and may be some secret German name, you can bet it is derived from Sindh. Everything (but for most of all their language) says India/Punjab, like I told you before.

And I am not trying to save my ass, why should I? You just do not see - or refuse to see - my point.

It's not that I think that the OLB is a real, but local legend or something, like I told you several times now. I think it's cooked up by a small group of people. They must have had a lot of real fun inventing unknown tribes and people and countries.

The gypsies were there long enough before the OLB was published. They were known as GYPSIES by many Europeans >> EGYPTIANS, and many will have been known by their own name, SINTA/E/I >> FINDA.

OK, let me give you an example. I am Dutch, my country is called Holland and The Netherlands (Nederland). Now you have 3 names to fabricate 3 new names: Tuts, Golanta, and Neerlana. Nice, eh? Took me 4 seconds of thinking.

EDIT:

You also seem to miss my other point: the location of Atland/Aldland.

If I follow the OLB, then it can't be somewhere to the west of Europe; everything - if you just look at what is said about the Finda and Atland - points to somewhere else.

Let's say that this is one inconsistency. One of many...

You can keep dragging in Greek legends as much as you like (and I know you like it), but you should read the OLB ITSELF or the next closest translation.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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I'm finding this a most fascinating topic even though I can't keep up with all the details. Half the time I think Abe is convincing himself the book is real, and then he goes and actually states once more, that it's a hoax.

Since I'm not one for the detailed stuff, gives me a headache, I just want to say what I got from reading the OLB. - and the other great stuff that's been posted.

When there was talk of the earth tilting I took that to mean exactly that. The whole earth. Not just some fault or fissure or slide. Those things are local and don't affect the sun rising higher. The land used to be warm and times were so happy, years were not counted. The sun rose higher. Meaning, that the whole earth had to tilt to make that change happen.

I take it by assumption then, that what would have been the north pole at that time, was much warmer than we know it, and Atland was there.

I'm with Puzzler regarding the Finda people. I understood it however, that after the homeland sunk, the three different tribes, went in different directions, but when this event of 2193 (or whatever the year was) happened, they came back from where they'd gone, on the other side of Germany. When something bad happens, you always want to go home!!

I don't think the Finns and Findas are the same people.

Does Atland or Aldland mean homeland at all? The book talks about Atland sinking, but that doesn't have to mean it was their homeland does it? Couldn't it just mean that there had been an older land where the Finns came from, but they were displaced when THEIR homeland sunk? Seems like all this land sinking or going missing, was in the North.

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I'm finding this a most fascinating topic even though I can't keep up with all the details. Half the time I think Abe is convincing himself the book is real, and then he goes and actually states once more, that it's a hoax.

Since I'm not one for the detailed stuff, gives me a headache, I just want to say what I got from reading the OLB. - and the other great stuff that's been posted.

When there was talk of the earth tilting I took that to mean exactly that. The whole earth. Not just some fault or fissure or slide. Those things are local and don't affect the sun rising higher. The land used to be warm and times were so happy, years were not counted. The sun rose higher. Meaning, that the whole earth had to tilt to make that change happen.

I take it by assumption then, that what would have been the north pole at that time, was much warmer than we know it, and Atland was there.

I'm with Puzzler regarding the Finda people. I understood it however, that after the homeland sunk, the three different tribes, went in different directions, but when this event of 2193 (or whatever the year was) happened, they came back from where they'd gone, on the other side of Germany. When something bad happens, you always want to go home!!

I don't think the Finns and Findas are the same people.

Does Atland or Aldland mean homeland at all? The book talks about Atland sinking, but that doesn't have to mean it was their homeland does it? Couldn't it just mean that there had been an older land where the Finns came from, but they were displaced when THEIR homeland sunk? Seems like all this land sinking or going missing, was in the North.

Jesus, I quoted from the OLB text itself ! It actually says that Atland was the homeland/motherland of the Finda people !! It's Sandbach who changed the Finda into Fins in the sentence I quoted, not me.

I am sorry if you don't buy it, but then you should not buy anything what's been said in the OLB.

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If you talk about the OLB Atland, then you are wrong: the OLB Atland was not known as center of civilization. This is the mistake many people make when they talk about the OLB Atland.

Of the OLB Atland the only thing known is when it sank (2193 BC), well, according to the OLB.

And if I am correct (I am not at all sure if I remember well), it's inhabitants were the evil Finda people.

EDIT:

I am right, and here's something for you, Searcher (I am glad at least one other person here is able to read Dutch, lol):

Het Oera Linda Boek laat ons verder prachtig zien hoe velen klakkeloos van elkaar overschrijven. Zo staat in het OLB dat Atland door verdorven Finda's werd bewoond. Onze associatie van Atlantis met een hoge beschaving dateert namelijk pas van na 1882, toen Ignatius Donelly Atlantis: The Antediluvian World publiceerde. Iemand die graag meepraat over boeken die hij niet gelezen heeft, zal daardoor per abuis kunnen beweren dat Atlantis in het OLB door de beschaafde Frya's werd bewoond. We treffen die misvatting bij velen aan, natuurlijk bij Veeman, maar bijvoorbeeld ook bij Wim en Elli Rinsma in het theosofische blad Sunrise in 1980, en zelfs bij een man als Wim Zaal in De verlakkers uit 1991.

http://www.skepsis.nl/oeralinda.html

Btw, there was a time (a very short time) that I wanted to believe that this Atland was nothing else but Dogger Island, inhabited by the Fomorians, who are described somewhat similar to the Finda people.

Maybe you will remember that I suggested that those Fomorians may have been descendents of Inuit people who crossed the Northern Atlantic and settled in Doggerland/Dogger Island. The Inuit could be seen as Asiatic people, much like the Finda people are being described in the OLB.

.

Yep you're right, I actually reread parts of it, just to make sure, but you are totally correct. Since last time I read it, it has been 15 years, so you'll forgive if I was a tad off concerning Atland.

http://www.vkblog.nl/bericht/134654/Het_beloofde_land = een heerlijk stukje schrijven. That was a great read, I had a chuckle or two. Thanks for posting it.

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I believe this is why everything is mixed up, especially so in myth.

Consider this: You say Abe that the history was created and embellished because they needed to appear old to the Spaniards or whoever it was at the time.

OK< I say Homer wrote the Greek myths for the same reason, to promote the antiquity of Athens, some propaganda for the Greek cause in their bleak outlook against Persia - let's get some moral going here boys, Homer has found some info out that might help our cause, well get him to jot it all up in a new writing we will create just for this, 'he reckons he has some info that puts us on the map! But as I disected Greek myth, I saw a similar thing to what is going on here, I could place much of it later than it seemed. For instance in a myth of the Argonauts they are promised the land of Libya and blow me down, it is a descendant of this crew that leads an expedition out of Thera to Cyrene and does indeedy colonise Libya.

So, the myth does tie into reality if the myth itself is written at a later time using real history of the same later time put into an earlier context.

We can't find much archaeological evidence of anything in Greece they speak of at the early time they say. Like Cadmus Phoenician writing for example.

If the myths were true and Cadmus was in Thebes at such an early date why don't we find writing until 800-900BC?

We say instead, Herodotus is a liar.

I believe the reason is the mythic stories are based in someone else's culture. What is with the ancient connection in myth of Greece to Libya and Egypt that we have no evidence of? Where is the real Troy, cause it sure hasn't convinced everyone that it's at Hissarlik. In fact, it has been placed in the Northern European area by an author or 2. Who is Zeus, a typical Indo-European named God and why does he seem like Thor the thunder maker? We see a swastika on a Norse object and I propose the symbol is purely Nordic. It seems to me after Homer, Greece sorta took over and everything is now compared to them and thier writings, we may be being mislead by our unknowingness to put so much fact in the Greeks, maybe Plato was right, the Greeks actually knew stuff all and were only very young but we have had thier Western culture influence over us for 2000 years.

We know clearly that at 1700BC a culture thrived in the Nordic lands and had relations with Greece and Phoenicia so to me, the OLB does ring true. We take very little notice because we don't hear much about them again until the Viking Age much later and seem to think the Norse people had no history until the Vikings.

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Yep you're right, I actually reread parts of it, just to make sure, but you are totally correct. Since last time I read it, it has been 15 years, so you'll forgive if I was a tad off concerning Atland.

http://www.vkblog.nl/bericht/134654/Het_beloofde_land = een heerlijk stukje schrijven. That was a great read, I had a chuckle or two. Thanks for posting it.

The mistake is based on what other people said about the OLB, and that mistake keeps repeating itself everywhere online and in books written about the OLB.

Yeah, I loved that piece of text, lol. I found it by Googling "Zigeuners" (Dutch for gypsies) together with "Friesland". And the abbreviation at the end - OLP - says it all,hahaha!!

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I believe this is why everything is mixed up, especially so in myth.

Consider this: You say Abe that the history was created and embellished because they needed to appear old to the Spaniards or whoever it was at the time.

OK< I say Homer wrote the Greek myths for the same reason, to promote the antiquity of Athens, some propaganda for the Greek cause in their bleak outlook against Persia - let's get some moral going here boys, Homer has found some info out that might help our cause, well get him to jot it all up in a new writing we will create just for this, 'he reckons he has some info that puts us on the map! But as I disected Greek myth, I saw a similar thing to what is going on here, I could place much of it later than it seemed. For instance in a myth of the Argonauts they are promised the land of Libya and blow me down, it is a descendant of this crew that leads an expedition out of Thera to Cyrene and does indeedy colonise Libya.

So, the myth does tie into reality if the myth itself is written at a later time using real history of the same later time put into an earlier context.

We can't find much archaeological evidence of anything in Greece they speak of at the early time they say. Like Cadmus Phoenician writing for example.

If the myths were true and Cadmus was in Thebes at such an early date why don't we find writing until 800-900BC?

We say instead, Herodotus is a liar.

I believe the reason is the mythic stories are based in someone else's culture. What is with the ancient connection in myth of Greece to Libya and Egypt that we have no evidence of? Where is the real Troy, cause it sure hasn't convinced everyone that it's at Hissarlik. In fact, it has been placed in the Northern European area by an author or 2. Who is Zeus, a typical Indo-European named God and why does he seem like Thor the thunder maker? We see a swastika on a Norse object and I propose the symbol is purely Nordic. It seems to me after Homer, Greece sorta took over and everything is now compared to them and thier writings, we may be being mislead by our unknowingness to put so much fact in the Greeks, maybe Plato was right, the Greeks actually knew stuff all and were only very young but we have had thier Western culture influence over us for 2000 years.

We know clearly that at 1700BC a culture thrived in the Nordic lands and had relations with Greece and Phoenicia so to me, the OLB does ring true. We take very little notice because we don't hear much about them again until the Viking Age much later and seem to think the Norse people had no history until the Vikings.

There are example of much earlier Greek writing. I remember some site where they found a gold plate with letters, of about 5500 or 6000 BC. The name starts with a -T-.

All I could find now is this:

http://www.e-grammes.gr/1997/02/yura_en.htm

EDIT:

It starts with a -D- lol, and its the Dispilio tablet, made from wood (not gold, that was just a copy in gold):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispilio_Tablet

Edited by Abramelin
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Jesus, I quoted from the OLB text itself ! It actually says that Atland was the homeland/motherland of the Finda people !! It's Sandbach who changed the Finda into Fins in the sentence I quoted, not me.

I am sorry if you don't buy it, but then you should not buy anything what's been said in the OLB.

Now, now, I also quoted from it and it clearly says they lived on the other side of the forest.

But I'll tell you what happened:

They were all from Atland, Freya, Finda and Lyda, then 2 groups moved out...so Finda's people lived on the other side of the forest, is how I read it.

Atland would have been the motherland of them but not necessarily where they lived.

As for the Finn, Finda thing, it seems the Finns are the Magyar who come in as I quoted, so I'm not sure how you make them Finda's people, I'll have to recheck that part.

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Now, now, I also quoted from it and it clearly says they lived on the other side of the forest.

But I'll tell you what happened:

They were all from Atland, Freya, Finda and Lyda, then 2 groups moved out...so Finda's people lived on the other side of the forest, is how I read it.

Atland would have been the motherland of them but not necessarily where they lived.

As for the Finn, Finda thing, it seems the Finns are the Magyar who come in as I quoted, so I'm not sure how you make them Finda's people, I'll have to recheck that part.

Yes, they came from the other side of the forest........sigh....

I have used the word "inconsistency" like 3 times now. Maybe my english isn't perfect, but I do hope that you do understand that word.

And why are you twisting and turning the words of the OLB? The Finda came from Atland and they had lived in Atland. Yes, they didnt stay there after it submerged, they fled. Or maybe they changed into dolphins or something, but I am not at all sure about that...

The Finn-Finda thing: omg, that was SANDBACH, SANDBACH (I need a bigger font) who changed it, NOT ME.

OK, they all came from Atland. I don't know where you found that in the OLB, but please give me a quote.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Jesus, I quoted from the OLB text itself ! It actually says that Atland was the homeland/motherland of the Finda people !! It's Sandbach who changed the Finda into Fins in the sentence I quoted, not me.

I am sorry if you don't buy it, but then you should not buy anything what's been said in the OLB.

Now, now...

It seems to me that all three, Finda, Freya and Lyda were all from Atland actually and Finda and Lyda's people moved out, Finda's people to the other side of the Forest. It was the motherland but not necessarily where they lived and it seems the Finns joined Finda's people.

I have been reading it mate, over and over but I'm annoyed now, cause I don't seem to have saved the link of the page I got this translation from:

When I came away from Athenia with my followers,

we arrived at an island named by my crew Kreta.

Tha-k althus wei faren was mith mina Ijvd fon Athenia,

kSmoD wi to tha lesta an en eland thrvch min Ijvd Kr^ta

Does anyone know where to find it?

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Yes, they came from the other side of the forest........sigh....

I have used the word "inconsistency" like 3 times now. Maybe my english isn't perfect, but I do hope that you do understand that word.

And why are you twisting and turning the words of the OLB? The Finda came from Atland and they had lived in Atland. Yes, they didnt stay there after it submerged, they fled. Or maybe they changed into dolphins or something, but I am not at all sure about that...

The Finn-Finda thing: omg, that was SANDBACH, SANDBACH (I need a bigger font) who changed it, NOT ME.

OK, they all came from Atland. I don't know where you found that in the OLB, but please give me a quote.

.

This is our earliest history.

Wr-alda, who alone is eternal and good, made the beginning. Then commenced time. Time wrought all things, even the earth. The earth bore grass, herbs, and trees, all useful and all noxious animals. All that is good and useful she brought forth by day, and all that is bad and injurious by night.

After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens:—

Lyda out of fierce heat.

Finda out of strong heat.

Frya out of moderate heat.

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Now, now...

It seems to me that all three, Finda, Freya and Lyda were all from Atland actually and Finda and Lyda's people moved out, Finda's people to the other side of the Forest. It was the motherland but not necessarily where they lived and it seems the Finns joined Finda's people.

I have been reading it mate, over and over but I'm annoyed now, cause I don't seem to have saved the link of the page I got this translation from:

When I came away from Athenia with my followers,

we arrived at an island named by my crew Kreta.

Tha-k althus wei faren was mith mina Ijvd fon Athenia,

kSmoD wi to tha lesta an en eland thrvch min Ijvd Kr^ta

Does anyone know where to find it?

Google Toolbar is great: it took me 10 seconds to find it:

Ch XV: FROM MINNO'S WRITINGS.

1. When I came away from Athenia with my followers, we arrived at an island named by my crew Kreta, because of the cries that the inhabitants raised on our arrival. When they really saw that we did not come to make war, they were quiet, so that at last I was able to buy a harbour in exchange for a boat and some iron implements, and a piece of land.

Now please give me a quote that says the Freya, Finda and Lydia came from Atland.

EDIT:

Here's a link to Sandbach's version on Sacred Texts:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/index.htm

.

Edited by Abramelin
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This is our earliest history.

Wr-alda, who alone is eternal and good, made the beginning. Then commenced time. Time wrought all things, even the earth. The earth bore grass, herbs, and trees, all useful and all noxious animals. All that is good and useful she brought forth by day, and all that is bad and injurious by night.

After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens:—

Lyda out of fierce heat.

Finda out of strong heat.

Frya out of moderate heat.

Huh? That only says the god Wr-alda created them, but nothing about where they originally lived.

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I believe this is why everything is mixed up, especially so in myth.

Consider this: You say Abe that the history was created and embellished because they needed to appear old to the Spaniards or whoever it was at the time.

OK< I say Homer wrote the Greek myths for the same reason, to promote the antiquity of Athens, some propaganda for the Greek cause in their bleak outlook against Persia - let's get some moral going here boys, Homer has found some info out that might help our cause, well get him to jot it all up in a new writing we will create just for this, 'he reckons he has some info that puts us on the map! But as I disected Greek myth, I saw a similar thing to what is going on here, I could place much of it later than it seemed. For instance in a myth of the Argonauts they are promised the land of Libya and blow me down, it is a descendant of this crew that leads an expedition out of Thera to Cyrene and does indeedy colonise Libya.

So, the myth does tie into reality if the myth itself is written at a later time using real history of the same later time put into an earlier context.

We can't find much archaeological evidence of anything in Greece they speak of at the early time they say. Like Cadmus Phoenician writing for example.

If the myths were true and Cadmus was in Thebes at such an early date why don't we find writing until 800-900BC?

We say instead, Herodotus is a liar.

I believe the reason is the mythic stories are based in someone else's culture. What is with the ancient connection in myth of Greece to Libya and Egypt that we have no evidence of? Where is the real Troy, cause it sure hasn't convinced everyone that it's at Hissarlik. In fact, it has been placed in the Northern European area by an author or 2. Who is Zeus, a typical Indo-European named God and why does he seem like Thor the thunder maker? We see a swastika on a Norse object and I propose the symbol is purely Nordic. It seems to me after Homer, Greece sorta took over and everything is now compared to them and thier writings, we may be being mislead by our unknowingness to put so much fact in the Greeks, maybe Plato was right, the Greeks actually knew stuff all and were only very young but we have had thier Western culture influence over us for 2000 years.

We know clearly that at 1700BC a culture thrived in the Nordic lands and had relations with Greece and Phoenicia so to me, the OLB does ring true. We take very little notice because we don't hear much about them again until the Viking Age much later and seem to think the Norse people had no history until the Vikings.

You'd be amazed how full the pre-viking Scandinavian history (for lack of better term) actually is. Though its ethnic and linguistic affinities are unknown in the absence of written sources, we do know it joined the european bronze age fairly late and initially through trade. Most Scandinavian sites present well-preserved objects made of wool, wood and imported Central European bronze and gold.

Important Central European and Mediterranean symbols were adopted and adapted, to the unique nordique style we know now. Possible, identified sources of influence for Scandinavian artwork from this period are Mycenaean Greece, the Villanovan culture, Phoenicia and even Ancient Egyp. You are totally correct in this regard. The main trade item was most likely amber, as amber found in Mycenaean graves originates from the Baltic Sea, for example. It is reasonable to assume, that the Nordic Bronze Age culture constituted one supply end of the amber trade.

The mistake is based on what other people said about the OLB, and that mistake keeps repeating itself everywhere online and in books written about the OLB.

Yeah, I loved that piece of text, lol. I found it by Googling "Zigeuners" (Dutch for gypsies) together with "Friesland". And the abbreviation at the end - OLP - says it all,hahaha!!

Like I said, after 15 years of not reading the book itself and basing myself on another book, the mistake is quite quickly made. I never said i was perfect either :P

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Like I said, after 15 years of not reading the book itself and basing myself on another book, the mistake is quite quickly made. I never said i was perfect either

I didn't say *I* was either, lol.

I am finding things here as I go along, and from one follows another.

And what I find is hilarious.

And 'some' seem to simply refuse what the OLB tells us itself, but maybe that is also based on wrong translations.

Let me give you an example:

From:

Toen de slechte tijd begon (When the bad times came):

Aldland, door de zeelieden Atland geheeten

Aldland trvch tha stjurar Atland hêten

In English:

Aldland , called Atland by the seafaring people

But here's another translation, and notice the difference:

Aldland, called Atland by the Sturian navigators who lived there

( from: http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/Oera/oera-intro.htm , a Dutch guy, of all people, god... )

LOL, it never says they lived there, the OLB only says that the sailors called it Atland.

And there are no 'Sturian navigators', 'stjurar' means nothing more than the Dutch 'stuurlui' (or literal: 'sturers' = those who steer), or in English, 'sailors'.

Just to show how the OLB original get's twisted and distorted, and then the damage is done because most do not want to read the original script, they just trust the English translation.

Edited by Abramelin
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I always like it Puzz, when I see you, down below, sweating for half an hour to write a huge post, lol.

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You'd be amazed how full the pre-viking Scandinavian history (for lack of better term) actually is. Though its ethnic and linguistic affinities are unknown in the absence of written sources, we do know it joined the european bronze age fairly late and initially through trade. Most Scandinavian sites present well-preserved objects made of wool, wood and imported Central European bronze and gold.

Important Central European and Mediterranean symbols were adopted and adapted, to the unique nordique style we know now. Possible, identified sources of influence for Scandinavian artwork from this period are Mycenaean Greece, the Villanovan culture, Phoenicia and even Ancient Egyp. You are totally correct in this regard. The main trade item was most likely amber, as amber found in Mycenaean graves originates from the Baltic Sea, for example. It is reasonable to assume, that the Nordic Bronze Age culture constituted one supply end of the amber trade.

I probably wouldnt be, many others would, I had Hyperborea as Atlantis once, this is why...'

all myths led to the North.

Of course, I backed off and went another direction(s) but in my mind, it really does work and make so much sense.

The Nordic Bronze Age starts in 1700BC.

Ask anyone when Vikings are around, you get something like this:

The term Viking (from Old Norse víkingr) is customarily used to refer to the Norse (Scandinavian) explorers, warriors, merchants, and pirates who raided, traded, and settled in wide areas of Europe and the North Atlantic islands from the late eighth to the mid-eleventh century

900AD!

Our minds condition us to not realise much went on before this time, you ask anyone what was going on in Scandinavia before the Vikings, they will say I don't know...no one knows. Why? Because it brings everything together and makes a mockery of everyone's past.

Wiki even alludes to this:

Popular conceptions of the Vikings often differ from the complex picture that emerges from archaeology and written sources. A romanticized picture of Vikings as Germanic noble savages began to take root in the 18th century, and this developed and became widely propagated during the 19th-century Viking revival.[3] The received views of the Vikings as violent brutes or intrepid adventurers owe much to the modern Viking myth which had taken shape by the early 20th century. Current popular representations are typically highly clichéd, presenting the Vikings as familiar caricatures

I am no conspiracy theorist, just someone who knows world history pretty well and know how much influence Christianity and other religions and governments had on others and what was written. (and what was disposed of) In truth, pagans were extreme victims of the takeover of Europe and make no mistake, even in countries outside of Europe Pagan witches were still being burned until a few hundred years ago. Would you believe my friend named her daughter Pagan and her church would not Christian the baby. All these people were subjected to extreme brutalist takeovers, in reality and on paper.

If we look closely and think about it some, why wouldn't the whole culture of Greece come from Scandinavia? To me, it is the obvious place to look. I got confused earlier in thinking it was celts but now I see it's actually the Norse who may have been confused with Celts as time went on, because I see the mix up in Wiki, even scholars are getting confused on the connection between the 2.

Achilles is always portrayed as fair, even Brad Pitt did the blonde thing in Troy, because he was BLONDE, sorry, didn't mean to yell, he was bought up by Chiron, a Centaur, what is a centaur, you really think its a half man half horse? No, it's a Celt, seriously, the Greek writers thought they looked like wild fair horses as these wild men rode, they would also dip their hair in limewater and throw it back, long, it sat back like a horse mane.

So, when you look close at myths like the important Lapiths and Centaurs, which is by the way, on the Parthenon, it really tells a story of a Celtic people against the new Greeks in their land. The Centaurs hang in Thessaly, the most ancient place to find all connections to Poseidon and Atlantis and Crete. The painting The Rape of the Sabines even has Heracles walking into the scene very casually, the new power of Greece.

But Achilles was too early to be a Celt really, so was Chiron, so why were they? I say they were other Nordic people similar to Celts and in the Wiki article of the Nordic Bronze Age you can see an early version of a double swirl, just like what developed into the typical Celtic/Med swirl we see.

Do you really think the Nordic people took on the so called "Greek" sun chariot?

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lol yes, half an hour later, sweat on my brow, there is your long post...you know me too well Abe!

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Like I said, after 15 years of not reading the book itself and basing myself on another book, the mistake is quite quickly made. I never said i was perfect either

I didn't say *I* was either, lol.

I am finding things here as I go along, and from one follows another.

And what I find is hilarious.

And 'some' seem to simply refuse what the OLB tells us itself, but maybe that is also based on wrong translations.

Let me give you an example:

From:

Toen de slechte tijd begon (When the bad times came):

Aldland, door de zeelieden Atland geheeten

Aldland trvch tha stjurar Atland hêten

In English:

Aldland , called Atland by the seafaring people

But here's another translation, and notice the difference:

Aldland, called Atland by the Sturian navigators who lived there

( from: http://www.earth-history.com/Europe/Oera/oera-intro.htm , a Dutch guy, of all people, god... )

LOL, it never says they lived there, the OLB only says that the sailors called it Atland.

And there are no 'Sturian navigators', 'stjurar' means nothing more than the Dutch 'stuurlui' (or literal: 'sturers' = those who steer), or in English, 'sailors'.

Just to show how the OLB original get's twisted and distorted, and then the damage is done because most do not want to read the original script, they just trust the English translation.

A Dutch guy of all people, god....then you got me thinking some....is it the Dutch who are undermining this book?

The Frisians are not Dutch, as I have stated, this is not a Dutch story either, as I have stated, the language in not Dutch, as I have stated.

The Dutch imbedded their own culture and language on these people, made them Dutch.

It would then be a logical assumption to me, knowing how proud the Dutch are, and believe me I have plenty of Dutch friends, I can pick them by their personality a mile away, not slighting you in any way, just a way you guys have....that these Dutch would not really want these Frisians to become independant nor claim any other ancestry but Dutch...

Just a thought. You should get out of the Dutch loop there Abe and look at it all from another perspective, you tell me it's nearly all Dutch scholars refuting this book because they apparently know so much about it all. Hmmm.

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lol yes, half an hour later, sweat on my brow, there is your long post...you know me too well Abe!

I know how it feels, and I also know how it feels when you click "Add Reply", just to see all your work disappear into the twilight zone, lol. And everytime I think, "I better prepare my post on Notebook, and then copy and paste it", but also everytime I am actually making a post, I forget my own warning, haha !!

--

About your sun chariot: I remember something similar but more ancient than that Scandinavian sun chariot you posted about.

It's not a chariot, but a sled carrying a sun symbol and pulled by reindeer, and also in Scandinavia.

Same thing with ancient Scandinavian rock paintings of boats carrying people and a sun symbol.

--

Greek legends originating in the North.. no doubt you will know about Spanuth and Vinci? And then we have many who wrote about Homer's Illiad and Odyssey taking place in the North Sea, and not in Greece/Meditterranean.

And THEN.... I'd like to tell you that (I must Google, but maybe Searcher knows it) that one of the first people who wrote about that (Homer in the North Sea) was a Belgium guy from the 19th century (with an impossible French name). That is what I remember, but I will try to look it up. If I am right, then we have another source of inspiration for the OLB....

--

EDIT:

Found him:

Théophile Cailleux was a Belgian lawyer, born in Calais in France and the author of a work on Homeric geography published in 1878. The title is Pays atlantiques décrits par Homère: Ibérie, Gaule, Bretagne, Archipels, Amériques. Théorie nouvelle ("Atlantic lands described by Homer: the Iberian peninsula, Gaul, Britain, the Atlantic islands, the Americas. A new theory"). As the title suggests, Cailleux took the unusual view that the geographical background to the events described in the Iliad and Odyssey was the coasts of the Atlantic Ocean, and not the shores of the Aegean Sea and Mediterranean Sea. The book was published in Paris by Maisonneuve

Cailleux wrote that Troy was situated in East Anglia where he had discovered two huge war-dykes between Cambridge and the Wash. Here, he identified the river Cam with the Iliad's Scamander and the river Great Ouse with Homer's Simoïs. He was convinced that Homeric Troy was once situated on the heights outside Cambridge known as the Gog Magog Hills. Ithaca, he believed, should be sought in south-west Spain, in the delta of the Guadalete, somewhere between Jerez and Cadiz. He found the spring Arethusa: the present Fuente Amarga near Chiclana de la Frontera, well-known for its therapeutic waters, and identified Ithaca's mount Neriton with the Nertobriga (briga meaning mountain in Celtic), a height figuring on a map of southern Celtiberia by the 2nd century Greek geographer Ptolemaeus.

Cailleux's work followed fairly soon after Heinrich Schliemann's triumphant demonstration that Troy and Mycenae existed as powerful cities at the right time and in the right place to have fought a Trojan War such as the epics describe (see for example Schliemann's Ithaka, der Peloponnesus und Troja, 1868). The need for geographical speculation had thus been to some extent removed, and Cailleux was not taken seriously by Homeric scholars or archaeologists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9ophile_Cailleux

Well, the date he published his book is a bit later than the publishing date of the OLB (OLB 1867), but it could be that his idea was well alive around that time.

EDIT:

Heh, all hope is not lost. There is a "de Grave" who had a similar theory, but far earlier:

C.J. de Grave came to the general conclusion that the historical and mythical background of Homer’s works should be sought in Western Europe (1806).

http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Th.-Cailleux

( and notice what even Plato is supposed to have said about the Illiad and Oddysey ).

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Sled...yeah, ok, and why the hell does Santa live at the NORTH POLE??

Don't answer that, I already have an idea.

The Sun symbol, obviously cherished in the cold North. The sun reaches it's peak way up North and reaches the Solstice, it appears to stop and then go back the other way, the Solstice imo can only be a Northern tradition.

North, north, north, all roads lead North.

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Sled...yeah, ok, and why the hell does Santa live at the NORTH POLE??

Don't answer that, I already have an idea.

The Sun symbol, obviously cherished in the cold North. The sun reaches it's peak way up North and reaches the Solstice, it appears to stop and then go back the other way, the Solstice imo can only be a Northern tradition.

North, north, north, all roads lead North.

You mean like in Santa >> Sinta >> Sindh >> Finda ?? LOLOL. Damn, Atland was on the North Pole :rofl:

OK, serious again: I hope you read the edit in my former post. It sure does look that certain ideas were very much alive in the 19th century.

Here's something of a summary about those theories (Homer in the north or in the Atlantic) :

http://codexceltica.blogspot.com/2009/10/homers-north-atlantic-odyssey.html

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Maybe Theophile read the OLB and thought the same, this is not in Greece, it describes somewhere else because he also knew the place names could be Northern European...

Where is the evidence of all these great Mycenaean ships they apprently had since they were great sailors, show me any around Greece, I think there is one shipwreck, considering the size of the Archaean force, you think wé'd find something, but no...

Where do we find big ships, even before 1200BC when the Phoenicians came to the fore, in Scandinavia of course.

220px-Bronze_Age_boats.png

Here's the chariot again...just because I love it so much.

200px-Solvogn.jpg

Not a sled here but I can see how this may have originally been a sled pulling the sun through the sky, oh hang on, Santa does that, flies through the sky...is Santa indeed the Pagan Sun God... :santa::devil: But I'll give the Santa link a wide berth for now.

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