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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


Riaan

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Mate, I'm after nothing.

I have no agenda on either side, can't you see me fence swapping every 5 minutes. I'm after the correct story. I'm looking into whether the Dutch have a reason for ridiculing this so much. I'm seeing what languages underlie it so I can make an informed decision on the text itself. All that...no agenda.

What I am slightly objecting to is you telling me because you read and know Dutch you know what it's about better.

I'm not forgetting it, I'm pointing it out-

What I see is a text that is not Dutch. It is original language of people of Holland, before the Dutch came, the people who were the invaders took on some Frisian into their German and it became Dutch and so did the people. The original people, the Frisians, who spoke Anglo-Saxon, were assimilated into this Dutch people, but retained some of thier original Anglo-Saxon so they had a Frisian language, a native language of A-S mixed with the new German language of the Dutch - the Dutch however, who spoke a German too, took on some Frisian, so their language shows hints of original native Anglo-saxon Frisian and their original Germanic language.

Why as you put it are: that many words in the Dutch language are still very similar (in writing and pronounciation) to Frisian. And also to the Frisian as used in the OLB.

Because your Dutch language is formed from some Frisian, of course you are going to see it, the Frisian has not formed from Dutch.

How this makes you more qualified to read the original text because you read Dutch is what I''m not really getting...but anyways, whatever.

I now start doubting your eyesight, Puzz.

And I KNOW the Frisian has not formed from Dutch. But the language used in the OLB is not some form of old Frisian: even Frisian scholars (linguists) say it resembles some weird mix of old Dutch, old Frisian, modern Dutch, modern Frisian, and somewhat changed loanwords from modern German and modern French

I am also not claiming I can understand the OLB perfectly, but I can read and understand a whole lot.

Read one of my former posts where I translated a sentence of the OLB - about volcanoes - into Dutch/Old Dutch.

And then judge again what I said.

--

I think you hate or avoid what's posted before you start posting, so here is what I posted today:

About those volcanoes... and about me being able to read most of the original OLB text:

To midden thisre stilnise fång irtha an to bêvande lik as hju stårvande wêre. Berga splyton fon ekkorum to spêjande fjvr ånd logha, ôra svnkon in hira skât del, ånd thêr hju êrost fjelda hêde; hêjade hju berga vppa.

Te midden deze stilnis ving aarde aan te beven gelijk als hij stervende waar. Bergen splijten van elkaar te spugende vuur en [logha], ander zonken in haar schoot [del], en daar hij eerst velden had, hefde hij bergen op.

This is a word for word translation into Dutch (and older Dutch that I know of). The words between brackets were unknown to me, and I had to look them up.

In english:

In the midst of the silence the earth started to tremble as though she was dying. Mountains split apart and started to spit fire and flame, others sunk in her lap down, and where she had fields before, now mountains rose up.

I didn't check the english translation with what can be found online, but I am pretty sure I am close.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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SlimJim:

So, prior to the the OLB the accepted dating of the flood by the catholic church was 2,193bce, is this correct? If so it obviously discredits the OLB a great deal but is there any details in the OLB that could not have been known prior to the date of writing. I am slowly reading through the OLB translation from sacred texts but it could take me a long time. The tradition of gypsies coming from India is old so that does not count if that is even what the OLB is suggesting. I'll keep looking and cross referncing with historical records of the time of writing.

2193 BC was the accepted date in the 19th century for the Frisian Bible scholars, yes.

And explain to me why it doesn't count that there is a very old tradition that the gypsies came from India? It counts a whole lot, as well as the equally old idea that they came from Egypt, hence their name, 'gypsies.

There seems to be a flaw in your logic, Jim.

It's just these old ideas about peoples and cultures that we should take into consideration.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Himmel (German) and Hemel (Dutch) are both translated into heaven, yes. NOWADAYS.

The ORIGINAL meaning, centuries ago was 'place of judgement'.

The Frisians who settled in the Punjab/India (according to the OLB) were NO CHRISTIANS.

So now you may tell me why they would use a Christianized meaning of the word 'Himmel/Hemel'.

Get my point??

Nowadays...I don't think so, I think the mountain of Shiva, the centre of the world, Mt Meru, the Himalayas, the heavenly snowy abode of God, (in the Heavens). has been Heaven, a place of judgement for a long time.

I showed you Hemal means snowy abode too, Himmelaia may mean nothing more than snowy abode so it is not really a Christianised word they use in the OLB at all.

The area of Himmelaia contained heaven so the word heaven probably derived from the word for snowy abode (of God) = heaven/Hemel Himalaya

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You asked about volcanoes in the OLB, and I gave you the sentence where they are mentioned, but you don't respond.

You wanted to know why I say I am more 'qualified' to read the OLB, being Dutch and all that, and I gave you an example, but you don't respond.

You say you said that Hemal means snowy abode, but you didn't, *I* did.

I will wait a couple of hours before I login again.

Take care, and sleep well.

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Sorry, I'll be back.

Edited by The Puzzler
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You asked about volcanoes in the OLB, and I gave you the sentence where they are mentioned, but you don't respond.

You wanted to know why I say I am more 'qualified' to read the OLB, being Dutch and all that, and I gave you an example, but you don't respond.

You say you said that Hemal means snowy abode, but you didn't, *I* did.

I will wait a couple of hours before I login again.

Take care, and sleep well.

Thank you :)

But I must rebutt this because you did say this:

Himmel (German) and Hemel (Dutch) are both translated into heaven, yes. NOWADAYS.

The ORIGINAL meaning, centuries ago was 'place of judgement'.

The original meaning of Himalaya (Sanskrit) is 'abode of snow'.

I don't see you saying hemel meant snowy abode anywhere, feel free to link me to your sentence.

I replied:

You said the German meaning of hemmel was heaven.

Now you say it is place of judgement.

The Tibetan name for the mountain is Gangs Rin-po-che. Gangs or Kang is the Tibetan word for snow peak analogous to alp or himal

Now I see himal can also mean snowy peak, as you also said it meant snowy abode or abode of snow...

So, Himal/hemel really means the same in German and sanskrit - it means snow peak.

I discovered it while finding out about Mt Kailash where it says snow peak is analogous to himal.

I'm afraid you did not tell me that.

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SlimJim:

So, prior to the the OLB the accepted dating of the flood by the catholic church was 2,193bce, is this correct? If so it obviously discredits the OLB a great deal but is there any details in the OLB that could not have been known prior to the date of writing. I am slowly reading through the OLB translation from sacred texts but it could take me a long time. The tradition of gypsies coming from India is old so that does not count if that is even what the OLB is suggesting. I'll keep looking and cross referncing with historical records of the time of writing.

2193 BC was the accepted date in the 19th century for the Frisian Bible scholars, yes.

And explain to me why it doesn't count that there is a very old tradition that the gypsies came from India? It counts a whole lot, as well as the equally old idea that they came from Egypt, hence their name, 'gypsies.

There seems to be a flaw in your logic, Jim.

It's just these old ideas about peoples and cultures that we should take into consideration.

.

We may have crossed wires or I may be missing your meaning. There is an old tradition that gypsies came from India according to a link I posted yesterday. Thus the writers of the OLB would have been aware of this and could have used it. I will have to check how old the suggestion of them coming from Egypt is, I recall something about it being from around the christian era but will check.

If my logic is flawed please elaborate so I might better understand the issues. I may have got confused with the gypsies from the village of Egypt that you psted about.

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This is ridiculous, Puzz, sorry.

The original meaning of Himmel, Hemel, is 'place of Judgement.'
If the OLB is as old as they want us to believe it is (and then it must have existed long before the conversion of the Frisians to Christianity), then they should have used the word Himmel/Hemel not for something 'high up to the sky' (where God and his merrymen hang out), but for a 'place of judgement'.

The original meaning of Himalaya (Sanskrit) is 'abode of snow'.

This is the childish play with words you see everywhere in the OLB.

It's like me saying, 'America' << 'Merica' << Me Rica << I am rich.. , and then saying "America" is the place of plenty,because it originally meant "I am rich", spoken by one of our true explorers, Nep Inka, when he found all the gold in South America, LOL.

.

Abramelin, where can it be shown that the original meaning for himmel/hemel is 'place of judgement?

The etymology for the word 'heaven', taken from the following has always been my understanding, with no association to the Himalayas, nor any other specific geographic location.

heaven

O.E. heofon "home of God," earlier "sky," possibly from P.Gmc. *khemina- (cf. Low Ger. heben, O.N. himinn, Goth. himins, O.Fris. himul, Du. hemel, Ger. Himmel "heaven, sky"), from PIE base *kem-/*kam- "to cover" (cf. chemise). Plural use in sense of "sky" is probably from Ptolemaic theory of space composed of many spheres, but it was also formerly used in the same sense as the singular in Biblical language, as a translation of Heb. pl. shamayim.

heaven

The meaning of the Hebrew word 'shamayim' BTW means 'sky' and is also not a geographic location.

cormac

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I now start doubting your eyesight, Puzz.

And I KNOW the Frisian has not formed from Dutch. But the language used in the OLB is not some form of old Frisian: even Frisian scholars (linguists) say it resembles some weird mix of old Dutch, old Frisian, modern Dutch, modern Frisian, and somewhat changed loanwords from modern German and modern French

I am also not claiming I can understand the OLB perfectly, but I can read and understand a whole lot.

Read one of my former posts where I translated a sentence of the OLB - about volcanoes - into Dutch/Old Dutch.

And then judge again what I said.

--

I think you hate or avoid what's posted before you start posting, so here is what I posted today:

.

I saw you had I just hadnt time to get back to this one. You have me all wrong there.

OK, nice one, credit where credit is due.

Mountains spitting fire, ok, volcanoes sounds the go there but mountains on fire can look to be spitting fire out, so it might not really mean a volcano.

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Believe me mate, I get no enjoyment from agreeing with cormac but I was going to ask the same thing...

Abramelin, where can it be shown that the original meaning for himmel/hemel is 'place of judgement?

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There is a thread on the Spirituaility board by Ghulam Akbar called 'Lost Heavens' about the hevens in the Himilayas and the meaning of Himel. Check it out.

I shall now move on to a linguistic discussion of the word Heavens which will prove to be very interesting. The linguistic scholars will accept my claim that this word belongs to the family of Aryan languages. They will also agree that Vedic Sanskrit is the oldest among the Aryan languages. Many words similar to Heavens like Him, Himvant, Himant, Himan and Himel could be found in the Vedic Sanskrit dictionary and they could be considered as the source of the word Heavens. Here it should be kept in mind that exchanging the letter W for M is a tradition of the Indo-Aryan languages. Interestingly, the meaning of all these words is the great range of Himalaya Mountains. This mountain range that is found in the Indo-Pak subcontinent is the mightiest mountain range of the world. Mount Everest and K-2, the two highest peaks of the world are a part of it. Hence, these peaks could truly be called the sky of our world. So, it seems that the word Heavens has been deducted from the words Him, Himvant, Himan and Himel. This point of view is further confirmed by the fact that the word Himel stands for Himalaya and Himmel means sky in the German (Indo Germanic) language. Another word Gagan or Gagnam in Hindi language means row upon row of skies. It is understood that no such rows of skies are visible in the expanse, but the rows of mighty mountain range of Himalaya are visible to the whole world and most probably the word Heavens is used in the plural form for the same reason. Then why were these Heavens considered to be seven? The religious books of India tell us that a river Ganga burst forth from the Heavens (Himalaya) and was divided into seven streams. Perhaps the areas bordered by seven streams were considered the seven Heavens.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=185922

On the romany people:

The very few elements that may apparently be connected with Indian traditions are in fact originated in the Hurrian culture, in Mesopotamia, that is the common source of the Assyrian-Babylonian, Persian and Indian mythologies as well as the origin of the traditions of the Danubian peoples, with whom most of Roma have coexisted during centuries. Therefore, the so-called "Indian" features of Roma are indeed elements that are found, even in a larger amount, among Hungarians, Russians and Slavic peoples, features that they have inherited from Khwarezm, and farther in the past, from Sumer and Subartu.

http://www.imninalu.net/traditionsRoma.htm

Was Scota a gypsy rather than an egyptian I'm wondering?

http://www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/scotland.html

http://www.valleystream.co.uk/romany-history.htm

In Holland, too, Luc Lucassen suggests that the emergence as a group of the Kalderash, Lovara, Ursari and Sinti clans in the period 1400-1900 is more a result of their being labelled as being different than because they actually are different from the general population. In one of his books he looks at three groups of nomads who arrived in the Netherlands towards the end of the 19th century and claimed that they were called Gypsies (Zigeuners) by the authorities not because they were Gypsies but because they resembled nomads called Gypsies who had come to Holland in the fifteenth century. The groups were Bosnian and Piedmontese animal trainers, and the Coppersmith Kalderash. The last named visited other countries and in England contemporary scholars took the trouble to record their language which was clearly Romani.

http://www.domresearchcenter.com/journal/11/kenrick11.html

Can you make head nor tail of this anybody? There just seems to be so much conflicting opinions on the matter. My faith in the OLB is faltering somewhat as the evidence does point to some people, possibly influenced by the rosuricians or someone, having created the OLB from existing folklore. I am curious why they would go to such lengths and I am thinking mischief more than anything. Still doesn't mean Alewyn's research into tsunamis is without merit but as a source the authority of the OLB seems questionable from what I am understanding thus far. Take the OLB out of the equation and the history of the gypsies is still very interesting.

I can't find the info I wanted on the gypsies coming from Egypt, can anyone help?

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So, I'm thinking about the word O.K, I say it alot, notice.

I look it up, some other stuff but also this:

17. Or from Finnish "oikea," correct.

7. Scottish "auch aye", meaning "ah yes." (Or "och aye," meaning "okay.")

That's how I use it, like ah yes. Och aye but correct is very much like ah yes, Finnish correct - ah yes.

Germanic people such as Angles and Saxons arrived beginning in the 7th century (into Scotland) while the Norse settled many regions of Scotland from the 8th century onwards

Trivial I know, but you learn something new everyday. :rolleyes:

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There is a thread on the Spirituaility board by Ghulam Akbar called 'Lost Heavens' about the hevens in the Himilayas and the meaning of Himel. Check it out.

I shall now move on to a linguistic discussion of the word Heavens which will prove to be very interesting. The linguistic scholars will accept my claim that this word belongs to the family of Aryan languages. They will also agree that Vedic Sanskrit is the oldest among the Aryan languages. Many words similar to Heavens like Him, Himvant, Himant, Himan and Himel could be found in the Vedic Sanskrit dictionary and they could be considered as the source of the word Heavens. Here it should be kept in mind that exchanging the letter W for M is a tradition of the Indo-Aryan languages. Interestingly, the meaning of all these words is the great range of Himalaya Mountains. This mountain range that is found in the Indo-Pak subcontinent is the mightiest mountain range of the world. Mount Everest and K-2, the two highest peaks of the world are a part of it. Hence, these peaks could truly be called the sky of our world. So, it seems that the word Heavens has been deducted from the words Him, Himvant, Himan and Himel. This point of view is further confirmed by the fact that the word Himel stands for Himalaya and Himmel means sky in the German (Indo Germanic) language. Another word Gagan or Gagnam in Hindi language means row upon row of skies. It is understood that no such rows of skies are visible in the expanse, but the rows of mighty mountain range of Himalaya are visible to the whole world and most probably the word Heavens is used in the plural form for the same reason. Then why were these Heavens considered to be seven? The religious books of India tell us that a river Ganga burst forth from the Heavens (Himalaya) and was divided into seven streams. Perhaps the areas bordered by seven streams were considered the seven Heavens.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=185922

On the romany people:

The very few elements that may apparently be connected with Indian traditions are in fact originated in the Hurrian culture, in Mesopotamia, that is the common source of the Assyrian-Babylonian, Persian and Indian mythologies as well as the origin of the traditions of the Danubian peoples, with whom most of Roma have coexisted during centuries. Therefore, the so-called "Indian" features of Roma are indeed elements that are found, even in a larger amount, among Hungarians, Russians and Slavic peoples, features that they have inherited from Khwarezm, and farther in the past, from Sumer and Subartu.

http://www.imninalu.net/traditionsRoma.htm

Was Scota a gypsy rather than an egyptian I'm wondering?

http://www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/scotland.html

http://www.valleystream.co.uk/romany-history.htm

In Holland, too, Luc Lucassen suggests that the emergence as a group of the Kalderash, Lovara, Ursari and Sinti clans in the period 1400-1900 is more a result of their being labelled as being different than because they actually are different from the general population. In one of his books he looks at three groups of nomads who arrived in the Netherlands towards the end of the 19th century and claimed that they were called Gypsies (Zigeuners) by the authorities not because they were Gypsies but because they resembled nomads called Gypsies who had come to Holland in the fifteenth century. The groups were Bosnian and Piedmontese animal trainers, and the Coppersmith Kalderash. The last named visited other countries and in England contemporary scholars took the trouble to record their language which was clearly Romani.

http://www.domresearchcenter.com/journal/11/kenrick11.html

Can you make head nor tail of this anybody? There just seems to be so much conflicting opinions on the matter. My faith in the OLB is faltering somewhat as the evidence does point to some people, possibly influenced by the rosuricians or someone, having created the OLB from existing folklore. I am curious why they would go to such lengths and I am thinking mischief more than anything. Still doesn't mean Alewyn's research into tsunamis is without merit but as a source the authority of the OLB seems questionable from what I am understanding thus far. Take the OLB out of the equation and the history of the gypsies is still very interesting.

I can't find the info I wanted on the gypsies coming from Egypt, can anyone help?

I haven't really got to the gypsies yet, much of my time has been spent checking the language out more but will get there. Scota being an Egyptian gypsy from Egypte, lol, probably.

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I must say, I found this interesting on gypsies:

The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Greek word Αιγύπτιοι (Aigyptioi, whence modern Greek γύφτοι gifti), in the belief that the Romanies, or some other Gypsy groups (such as the Balkan Egyptians), originated in Egypt, and in one narrative were exiled as punishment for allegedly harboring the infant Jesus

From the Greek word meaning Aigyptioi - in the belief the originated in Egypt. They harboured Jesus.

That sounds a bit like the OLB to me.

It sort of fits with my idea the Greeks copied this info and translated the places wrong...why did they think the Gypsies had originated in Egypt? Did they actually originate in EGYPTE? (The Greeks thought the Magi were Egyptian like priests and even say a colony of them were sent to the Chaldees, with Belus)

Like slim said, was Scota a gypsy from Egypte??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Edited by The Puzzler
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I haven't really got to the gypsies yet, much of my time has been spent checking the language out more but will get there. Scota being an Egyptian gypsy from Egypte, lol, probably.

Hah, I went back and read a fair bit of your celtic influence on ancient greece thread yesterday. Some good stuff in there not that I found what I was looking for. Consdering all angles of the debate on Scota coming from Egypt or Scythia or whereever it struck me that them being gypsies was a possibility albeit a slim one.

I have tried to refrain from linguistic comparisons where possible because of badly they are received. I'll leave it to you and Abe to duke out :lol: I'm hopefully covering the gypsy connection and am trying to pick out the best links for your perousal. Here is a good one.

http://www.gypsyadvice.com/gypsy_lore.htm

I don't know what the genetics say but there is definitely an eastern gene mixed with the irish giving us the 'black irish'. They seem kinda similar to gypsies in appearance from my experience, with thick wavy black hair and olive skin. Not what is thought of as typically celtic. However, the celts were a complex group and the majority were short with dark features so these dark genes could jsut as easily be the more ancient ones. As usual inconclusive but just a thought.

Not reading anythin so far that would validate the OLB as the information was already incirculaltion.

A real mishmash of opinion.

Another theory which has gained steam over the years was that the Gypsies/Roma is descendants of Abraham’s children by his second wife, Keturah. She gave him six children; Zimran, Jokshan, Medan, Midian, Ishbah and Shuah. When the Israelites left Egypt, the children’s descendants went with them. Exodus xii.38: “and a mixed multitude went up also with the Children of Israel.”

While the origins remain scratchy, what most can agree on is that there were great migrations through Roma/Gypsy history that had dispersed them throughout the world, beginning with the first wave when it was assumed they left India over a thousand years ago. The next great move, known as the Aresajipe, was from southwest Asia into Europe during the 14th cen­tury. The third great migra­tion was from Europe to the United States during the 19th century and early 20th cen­tury after the abolishment of Romani slavery in Europe.

In the second half of the 18th century, European scholars studying the Roma/Gypsy found that the Romani language shared basic words, including num­bers, action, family relation­ships, etc. with the Eastern Indian languages. So it appeared that its roots appear to be based on Sanskrit, the historical lan­guage of the Hindus of India.

From the link above.

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I must say, I found this interesting on gypsies:

The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Greek word Αιγύπτιοι (Aigyptioi, whence modern Greek γύφτοι gifti), in the belief that the Romanies, or some other Gypsy groups (such as the Balkan Egyptians), originated in Egypt, and in one narrative were exiled as punishment for allegedly harboring the infant Jesus

From the Greek word meaning Aigyptioi - in the belief the originated in Egypt. They harboured Jesus.

That sounds a bit like the OLB to me.

It sort of fits with my idea the Greeks copied this info and translated the places wrong...why did they think the Gypsies had originated in Egypt? Did they actually originate in EGYPTE? (The Greeks thought the Magi were Egyptian like priests and even say a colony of them were sent to the Chaldees, with Belus)

Like slim said, was Scota a gypsy from Egypte??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

Welsh gypsies are called Kale.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kale_(Welsh_Romanies)

calé= a gypsy: from Caló "Gypsy, speaker of Romany," see caló below

caló = Caló, also black, dark-colored: the word is possibly related to Sanskrit kanlanka "blemish, macula" and/or Ancient Greek kelainós "black."

cañi= Caló, gypsy: possibly from cali, feminine of calé and/or caló, see calé and caló above

The indian goddess Kali was know as the black one and was the consort of Shiva. She must be Parvati's alterego.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

heifer maiden, Io, and the river-god Nilus, and was a king in Egypt.[1] Aegyptos was the son of Belus[2] and Achiroe, a naiad daughter of Nile. Aegyptus fathered fifty sons, who were all but one murdered by the fifty daughters of Aegyptus' twin brother, Danaus, eponym of the Danaans, a name for the Mycenaean Greeks. The Aegyptus of Greek myth is not a genuinely Egyptian figure, but a figment of Egypt in the European imagination.

http://www.medlibrary.org/medwiki/Aigyptos

Obviously Egypt was originally Kemet, the black land so what is the deeper meaning, if any to all this word play.

This Romany legend exists in many forms, and appears to be a genuine gypsy tale, rather than one attributed to them by outsiders.

In the version I grew up with, a gypsy smith was approached by a Roman legionnaire, and commissioned to forge twelve large nails. Used to jobs of this kind, and having no reason to question his patrons, the smith did as he was bid, only to learn that the nails were to be used to fix Christ and the robbers to their crosses.

Stricken with remorse, the gypsy handed his son three of the nails, and bid him flee with them.

When the Centurion arrived to collect, the smith said that he had only had time to complete nine, and handed these over.

The Roman was forced to make do with what he had, securing the three victims to their crosses with only three nails apiece, thus saving them much pain.The young thief, the three nails safely hidden, passed the foot of the cross as he fled, and Jesus smiled down on him and blessed him, excusing the gypsies ever after from commiting a sin when they stole, and thus theft is not an immoral act for the Romany.

However, an angry mob, discovering that the nails that executed Jesus were gypsy work, drove the smith and his kin from their land, and they have been doomed to be chased on ever since, wandering and unable to settle until the three missing nails are discovered, and their persecution ends

In other versions, a gypsy woman stole a bag of nails from a Roman soldier, with the same effect of lessening the Christ's pain, and in still others a gypsy child (either boy or girl depending on the teller) stole a fourth golden nail which was destined to be driven through Jesus' heart, thereby saving his life, and allowing the resurrection.

All the legends have one feature in common however -- for their service to the Son of God, the gypsies are immune to damnation for the sin of theft, and can therefore steal with impunity.

http://everything2.com/title/The+legend+of+the+gypsy+and+the+nails+from+the+cross

This has a slight parallel with the Cathars.

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Abe said:

2193 BC was the accepted date in the 19th century for the Frisian Bible scholars, yes.

And explain to me why it doesn't count that there is a very old tradition that the gypsies came from India? It counts a whole lot, as well as the equally old idea that they came from Egypt, hence their name, 'gypsies.

Abe obviously knows the word gypsy came from the Greek for Egypt. And that the Sinti, a Gypsy group say they came from India, as their language does show signs of doing so.

That is really interesting though really, it could even connect the Ethiopians who were in Colchis, were they really Magi from Egypt, or Ethiopia.

Apart from that - we have the Ethiopia-India connection and an odd lot of references to Dionysus, Meru, India and Ethiopia.

The gypsies could have come from India to both places, Sumer and Egypt and also into Europe to the Balkans and then into North Europe. That's the same sort of travels Dionysus makes and he seems to be connected somehow.

Found this:

In the western tradition the godform most similar to Shiva can be identified with the Greek Dionysus, as evidenced by a “remarkable pattern of correspondences between the two deities, arising from the comparative study of mythology and literature” as noted by Alain Danielou, the French specialist on India’s religions and philosophies, in his “Gods of Love and Ecstasy: the Traditions of Shiva and Dionysus”.

http://www.boomfestival.org/boom2010/2010/05/shiva-and-dionysus

but this one gives another side:

http://kataragama.org/research/dionysus.htm

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Abe said:

2193 BC was the accepted date in the 19th century for the Frisian Bible scholars, yes.

And explain to me why it doesn't count that there is a very old tradition that the gypsies came from India? It counts a whole lot, as well as the equally old idea that they came from Egypt, hence their name, 'gypsies.

Abe obviously knows the word gypsy came from the Greek for Egypt. And that the Sinti, a Gypsy group say they came from India, as their language does show signs of doing so.

That is really interesting though really, it could even connect the Ethiopians who were in Colchis, were they really Magi from Egypt, or Ethiopia.

Apart from that - we have the Ethiopia-India connection and an odd lot of references to Dionysus, Meru, India and Ethiopia.

The gypsies could have come from India to both places, Sumer and Egypt and also into Europe to the Balkans and then into North Europe. That's the same sort of travels Dionysus makes and he seems to be connected somehow.

Found this:

In the western tradition the godform most similar to Shiva can be identified with the Greek Dionysus, as evidenced by a “remarkable pattern of correspondences between the two deities, arising from the comparative study of mythology and literature” as noted by Alain Danielou, the French specialist on India’s religions and philosophies, in his “Gods of Love and Ecstasy: the Traditions of Shiva and Dionysus”.

http://www.boomfestival.org/boom2010/2010/05/shiva-and-dionysus

but this one gives another side:

http://kataragama.org/research/dionysus.htm

Didn't Plato say something about Ethiopia and India being cousins. Of course there were the persians in between the two cultures. Also, we have Arabia and Yemen formerly known as Magan.

The sadhus of India strike me as being Samson like with the dreadlocks so an ancient connection is possible. Rastafarianism was brought to Jamaica by Sadhus in the 19th century who came to work and this was how the religion began. True story :lol:

Memnon arrived with reinforcemenst at Troy, too late mind due but there was this ancient connection that is hard to explain. Greek myth surely holds the key but it's a hard lock to pick.

Due to the conflicting nature of ancient texts--compounded by Greek use of the word "Ethiopian" to describe dark-skinned people of varied locales, including such geographically disparate regions as Sub-Saharan Africa and Southern India[citation needed], scholars sometimes have difficulty interpreting what "Ethiopia" entails. Commonly associated with southernly African regions, it has been pointed out as well that Ethiopia referred to some areas to the north or on the other side of the Red Sea. It has been posited that Ethiopia referred to in the myth of Andromeda was actually a kingdom based at Joppa in Phoenicia.[citation needed] Cepheus and Cassiopeia the parents of Andromeda, are presented as the king and queen of Joppa; and, Andromeda was chained to rocks in the sea off the Levantine coast. This interpretation is supported by Pliny the Elder's 1st Century observation of a tradition, in Joppa, that associated a rock off the coast of Israel with the mythical rock of Andromeda.[3] However, contrary to this notion, is legend that Perseus's "return flight" took him "above the sands of Libya"[4]--which could not have occurred if, in fact, Joppa was the location of mythological Ethiopia.

So it might not even refer to Ethiopia as we know it which was anciently called Nubia or Cush. Then again there is the strange connection with Cush and Kashmir if that connection can be proposed. The ancients sure knew how to spin a yarn and I can only think they did not want it deciphered too easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia_(mythology)

I recently came to thinking that Dionysus was Skanda the son of Shiva and this is why Dionysus appears so similar to Shiva. Dionysus was not black but was accompanied by a retinue of satyrs. You equate centaurs with celts and I equate satyrs with semitic goat herds. Ever seen the goat man of Iran pics? Very satyr like.

http://tseday.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/the-african-presence-in-india-by-runoko-rashidi/

I found this and thought the article might interest you. It is about Philo and the Pythagoreans and how christianity was formed from an unorthodox perspective.

http://www.gottnotes.com/ArticlesMahramMagda.html

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Didn't Plato say something about Ethiopia and India being cousins. Of course there were the persians in between the two cultures. Also, we have Arabia and Yemen formerly known as Magan.

The sadhus of India strike me as being Samson like with the dreadlocks so an ancient connection is possible. Rastafarianism was brought to Jamaica by Sadhus in the 19th century who came to work and this was how the religion began. True story :lol:

Memnon arrived with reinforcemenst at Troy, too late mind due but there was this ancient connection that is hard to explain. Greek myth surely holds the key but it's a hard lock to pick.

Due to the conflicting nature of ancient texts--compounded by Greek use of the word "Ethiopian" to describe dark-skinned people of varied locales, including such geographically disparate regions as Sub-Saharan Africa and Southern India[citation needed], scholars sometimes have difficulty interpreting what "Ethiopia" entails. Commonly associated with southernly African regions, it has been pointed out as well that Ethiopia referred to some areas to the north or on the other side of the Red Sea. It has been posited that Ethiopia referred to in the myth of Andromeda was actually a kingdom based at Joppa in Phoenicia.[citation needed] Cepheus and Cassiopeia the parents of Andromeda, are presented as the king and queen of Joppa; and, Andromeda was chained to rocks in the sea off the Levantine coast. This interpretation is supported by Pliny the Elder's 1st Century observation of a tradition, in Joppa, that associated a rock off the coast of Israel with the mythical rock of Andromeda.[3] However, contrary to this notion, is legend that Perseus's "return flight" took him "above the sands of Libya"[4]--which could not have occurred if, in fact, Joppa was the location of mythological Ethiopia.

So it might not even refer to Ethiopia as we know it which was anciently called Nubia or Cush. Then again there is the strange connection with Cush and Kashmir if that connection can be proposed. The ancients sure knew how to spin a yarn and I can only think they did not want it deciphered too easily.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia_(mythology)

I recently came to thinking that Dionysus was Skanda the son of Shiva and this is why Dionysus appears so similar to Shiva. Dionysus was not black but was accompanied by a retinue of satyrs. You equate centaurs with celts and I equate satyrs with semitic goat herds. Ever seen the goat man of Iran pics? Very satyr like.

http://tseday.wordpress.com/2008/08/24/the-african-presence-in-india-by-runoko-rashidi/

I found this and thought the article might interest you. It is about Philo and the Pythagoreans and how christianity was formed from an unorthodox perspective.

http://www.gottnotes.com/ArticlesMahramMagda.html

Thanks Jim, will read that.

I had this saved as my connection dropped and then saw your post so will paste it as an answer to your post. Connections, connections.

Could the Ethiopian Cush people (of Ethiopia) (not everyone living in the country of Ethiopia but a group that joined them) actually come into from India (Hindu Kush) via the Middle east with a flood story. What is with the Ethiopian Memnon, he is always black, and sometimes even referred to as Phaethon, as he is the son of Dawn (eos) but his father is also Tithonius, of Troy, he is in Susa but also in an Ethiopian Kingdom somewhere other than Ethiopia in Africa, often thought to be Joffa/Jaffa/Joppa in modern day Israel. Such strange connections. Memnon supposedly fought and died in the Trojan war. Herodotus says the people look alike too.

Dawn, the East? and people of Susa (descended from Troy/Europe) = Memnon?

Indians, Sinta people, in Susa = Ethiopian Kingdom of Memnon

A gypsy line of dark skinned Magi that stayed on eventually becoming known as the Magi of Ur? Maybe they were the dark skinned kalali, (was it?) Indian Jews...the line of the Jews does start in Ur, oddly enough. We also know for a while there Moses could do the same magic as the Egyptian priests (Magi like himself). One of the Magi is dark skinned in a picture...

Won't let me show pic, so here at this link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

Why do they represent all 3 continents as do the sons of Noah, was there a culmination of the 3 continents people in one spot that then dispersed again in a different grouping/s. India/Asia + Aryan presence, lamps always lit, possibly the Northern European influence that came in and leaves us the IE in Anatolia, Iran etc + Africa (Ham) Egyptians and other Ethiopians in Canaan who may have even bought back some Magi in very early trade times, who then proceeded to install a similar type of preisthood into Egypt. The Bible story seems to imply this - a man who had 3 children, each one in the story represented which 'race - insert appropriate word' they would become.

I'm not judging any beliefs and none of this probably has any basis in fact and has all been done before I know but thought it was some weird linkings with the 3, Indians, Ethiopians and Magi.

Just some thoughts. I best get some sleep, too much to get confused with... :wacko: lol

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Thanks Jim, will read that.

I had this saved as my connection dropped and then saw your post so will paste it as an answer to your post. Connections, connections.

Could the Ethiopian Cush people (of Ethiopia) (not everyone living in the country of Ethiopia but a group that joined them) actually come into from India (Hindu Kush) via the Middle east with a flood story. What is with the Ethiopian Memnon, he is always black, and sometimes even referred to as Phaethon, as he is the son of Dawn (eos) but his father is also Tithonius, of Troy, he is in Susa but also in an Ethiopian Kingdom somewhere other than Ethiopia in Africa, often thought to be Joffa/Jaffa/Joppa in modern day Israel. Such strange connections. Memnon supposedly fought and died in the Trojan war. Herodotus says the people look alike too.

Dawn, the East? and people of Susa (descended from Troy/Europe) = Memnon?

Indians, Sinta people, in Susa = Ethiopian Kingdom of Memnon

A gypsy line of dark skinned Magi that stayed on eventually becoming known as the Magi of Ur? Maybe they were the dark skinned kalali, (was it?) Indian Jews...the line of the Jews does start in Ur, oddly enough. We also know for a while there Moses could do the same magic as the Egyptian priests (Magi like himself). One of the Magi is dark skinned in a picture...

Won't let me show pic, so here at this link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

Why do they represent all 3 continents as do the sons of Noah, was there a culmination of the 3 continents people in one spot that then dispersed again in a different grouping/s. India/Asia + Aryan presence, lamps always lit, possibly the Northern European influence that came in and leaves us the IE in Anatolia, Iran etc + Africa (Ham) Egyptians and other Ethiopians in Canaan who may have even bought back some Magi in very early trade times, who then proceeded to install a similar type of preisthood into Egypt. The Bible story seems to imply this - a man who had 3 children, each one in the story represented which 'race - insert appropriate word' they would become.

I'm not judging any beliefs and none of this probably has any basis in fact and has all been done before I know but thought it was some weird linkings with the 3, Indians, Ethiopians and Magi.

Just some thoughts. I best get some sleep, too much to get confused with... :wacko: lol

Night Puzz, just getting started on this :geek: so should have some good stuff for you tommorow. In essence I agree with what you are saying but it is the same old problem with direction for my money. I think the original inhabitants of the Indus valley were largely black and they made up the Dravidians. They may have moved with more purpose out of the Red sea region after the unification. That would fit for me anyway but it is largely incidental. The Aryan incursions then largely forced the blacks out of the region. Are the Ksatriyas and the Kassites related I wonder?

Remember with Canaan that he was the cursed son of Ham and was forced to be the servant of the sons of Shem and Japheth. This seems to imply that post flood the black people become subservient in some way to the red and white skinned people. This of course could be propaganda created at a later date but it's worth considering.

Whatever can be proved by archeology is one thing but reasonably speaking ancient contact between India and east Africa is possible if not definite. There was a land route and a sea route in Ethiopia and historically it was recognized to have the most ancient culture.

Will come back with some more links.

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Cormac and Puzzler, I think you both know me well enough, and that I always post the links to the sites or the titles of the books from where I got my information.

But yesterday I forgot to add the link of that 'place of judgement' as the original meaning of 'himmel'/'hemel', and believe me, I have again searched for an hour but I cannot find it again. Maybe it wasn't even in English.

My head was splitting, and I was hurrying things. 'Heaven' knows, maybe I dreamt it, lol !

But from the Dutch book, "Etymologisch Woordenboek" by Dr. J. de Vries (heh, Vries = Frisian) I get this:

Hemel = "dome", like in the roof of the Aya Sofia in Instanbul.

From a dictionary, "Hindi - Nederlands" by Swami Persad Bihari (I was once in love with a Hindu woman from Surinam, so I bought it to impress her, lol) I got this: 'Heem' (pronounce like 'hey-m') = snow, hail.

Another word from that dictionary: 'heman.t' = winter

So what I get from that is that the Hindi word (which came from Sanskrit) points to snow, hail, winter. And thus not so much with the skies, although I do know that hail and snow fall from the sky.

So Himalaya is 2 words, Hima - laya. Don't know what laya stands for, but I think it's something with 'place', so Himalaya would be 'place of snow'. And if 'laya' is abode (couldn't find a similar word in my dictionary), then yes, it's 'abode of snow' or 'snowy abode'.

Now, does the OLB explain it as : 'Himmellaia' >> Himmel >> heaven"?? And what's laia according to the OLB??

No, the explanation (Sandbach translation of the OLB) is different, read this:

Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens (laia), and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb49.htm

And here it is again, but now in the original language:

Tha berga hwanâ se del strâme sind alsa hâch thet se to tha himel låja. Thêrvmbe wårth-et berchta Himellâja berchta hêten.

So, LOL, Himalaya means, heaven-heaven, according to the Sandbach's OLB. Nah, the part that says 'to tha himel låja' should be 'tot de hemel reiken' = reach to the heaven. Laja = reach. Well, according to the OLB... but not according for our dear English translator, mr. Sandbach.

OK, I will give a literal translation into Dutch:

"De bergen waar ze beneden stromen zijn alzo hoog dat ze tot de hemel reiken.

Daarom werden die bergen Himellaja bergen ge-heten"

= The mountains through which they stream down are so high, that they reach to heaven.

That is why those mountains were called Himalaya mountains.

Btw, I think you, Puzzler and SlimJim, are deviating to much. Not that I say you cannot do this, I just say that you better start at the 'bottom', and that is the OLB itself.

Just look at yourselves: you talk about the gypsies for a lot of posts already, and if you don't get hold of something, you both will flie out of the window, hahha!!

Do you both still remember why you post about gypsies?

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Cormac and Puzzler, I think you both know me well enough, and that I always post the links to the sites or the titles of the books from where I got my information.

But yesterday I forgot to add the link of that 'place of judgement' as the original meaning of 'himmel'/'hemel', and believe me, I have again searched for an hour but I cannot find it again. Maybe it wasn't even in English.

My head was splitting, and I was hurrying things. 'Heaven' knows, maybe I dreamt it, lol !

But from the Dutch book, "Etymologisch Woordenboek" by Dr. J. de Vries (heh, Vries = Frisian) I get this:

Hemel = "dome", like in the roof of the Aya Sofia in Instanbul.

From a dictionary, "Hindi - Nederlands" by Swami Persad Bihari (I was once in love with a Hindu woman from Surinam, so I bought it to impress her, lol) I got this: 'Heem' (pronounce like 'hey-m') = snow, hail.

Another word from that dictionary: 'heman.t' = winter

So what I get from that is that the Hindi word (which came from Sanskrit) points to snow, hail, winter. And thus not so much with the skies, although I do know that hail and snow fall from the sky.

So Himalaya is 2 words, Hima - laya. Don't know what laya stands for, but I think it's something with 'place', so Himalaya would be 'place of snow'. And if 'laya' is abode (couldn't find a similar word in my dictionary), then yes, it's 'abode of snow' or 'snowy abode'.

Now the OLB explains it as : 'Himmellaia' >> Himmel >> heaven. Well, then what's laia according to the OLB??

=

Btw, I think you, Puzzler and SlimJim, are deviating to much. Not that I say you cannot do this, I just say that you better start at the 'bottom', and that is the OLB itself.

Just look at yourselves: you talk about the gypsies for a lot of posts already, and if you don't get hold of something, you both will flie out of the window, hahha!!

Do you both still remember why you post about gypsies?

.

Uh, good question. I in particular am guilty of this and I hink I'm a bad influence on Puzz, ha ha. Can you clarify for me becuse I have obviously latched on to things that you have written in this thread and researched from there. In so doing I may have drifted from the OLB.

I will be starting a thread on the Nagas of India I think because that should be able to cover all the angles I want but just to clarify the connection I was making.

Gypsies from India or Altland, perhaps in the Himalayas. I don't like the north sea hypothesis for some reason. Anyway from there I found gypsies to be linked to 'black' and I traced this to Kali of India. Something I hven't mentioned was how the gypsies are thought to have introduced the Tarot deck to the west. I am dubious of this.

As I recall I tried to get you to confirm if the people, (was it the Finda as in Sinda?) of the OLB were from the Punjab as you seemed to infer or from the local region called something like Egypt, I can't remember you saying one way or the other so I thought it ok to proceed. It is very confusing so I just follow what comes to mind but I appreciate that must do your head in. However, I did find this just now that appears to support the basis of what I have been saying.

The Ophidian or Serpent-venerating Traditional Craft has been around for a very long time. One of its magical texts, the "Oera Linda Book", has sections that date back more than four thousand years. Every ancient culture recognized a primordial Serpent-deity associated with wisdom and power, dwelling in the watery Abyss deep below the Earth's surface. In more recent centuries this ancient belief was kept alive by Travelling Folk, especially those who lived and worked on the sea, on rivers, and (later) on canals, such as the "Water Gypsies". Knowledge of the World Serpent also persisted in remote country districts all over Europe.

The Oera Linda Book was compiled over many centuries by the Frisians, a nation who in historical times lived around the southern coast of the North Sea. The Frisians believed that their ancestors had constructed the stone circles and megalithic monuments that are found all over Europe. They also claimed to be descended from the inhabitants of the lost island of Atlantis (or Atland, as they called it). The ancient Megalithic Culture existed across the whole of western and northern Europe, and was the earliest known civilisation on Earth. The Greek philosopher Plato, and the Oera Linda Book, both tell us that this vast area was divided into ten autonomous kingdoms, or kin-groups, spread out over large tracts of the continent.

The remains of the Megalithic Culture can be seen to this day in the form of cromlechs, dolmens, barrows, and stone circles such as Stonehenge. The earliest of these crypts, or temples, have been dated to around 4800 BC, so this gives us a reasonable starting point for the long and convoluted history of the Ophidian Craft - though some would say that it is as old as the human race itself.

Today, the Ophidian Traditional Craft is preserved and passed on by the Ordo Anno Mundi (OAM), which has branches in both Europe and North America. Based in Staffordshire, England, the OAM was founded on 18th March 1985 and traces its initiatory lineage to the Frisian-descended Canal Folk of the English Midlands. This illustrious lineage is passed on to all of its Initiates who undergo the training.

Core Beliefs

The two words that best sum up the Ophidian view of reality are animism and polytheism. Literally everything is alive, with its own sentience and feelings. Nature abounds with spirits of every kind, many of which are powerful enough to be classed as deities, either gods or goddesses (or sometimes androgynous).

http://www.coven-of-cythrawl.com/traditional_witchcraft.htm

Course the author has got somethings backwards.

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SlimJim:

Gypsies from India or Altland, perhaps in the Himalayas. I don't like the north sea hypothesis for some reason. Anyway from there I found gypsies to be linked to 'black' and I traced this to Kali of India. Something I hven't mentioned was how the gypsies are thought to have introduced the Tarot deck to the west. I am dubious of this.

As I recall I tried to get you to confirm if the people, (was it the Finda as in Sinda?) of the OLB were from the Punjab as you seemed to infer or from the local region called something like Egypt, I can't remember you saying one way or the other so I thought it ok to proceed. It is very confusing so I just follow what comes to mind but I appreciate that must do your head in. However, I did find this just now that appears to support the basis of what I have been saying.

Look, in the OLB there is a play with words going on, a play based on twisted place names and names of peoples and nicknames

-1- There were gypsies in Friesland. Everyone knew they were said to socalled come from Egypt, so the authors of the OLB thought, "Let's call them "Egyptians" " ;

-2- People back then also knew that these European gypsies called themselves 'Sinti/a/e'. In old texts the letter -f- is used for both -s- and -f-. ... The Sinti/a/e said their name was derived form 'Sindh' (India).......OK, cool. >> Sinta =>> Finda.

You make too much of it Jim, believe me. You are working yourself up by trying to explain where the gypsies came from or where not from, what their relation was with this and that, .... in a minute you start delving in genetics, lol.

Again I say: the authors of the OLB wanted to concoct a myth, a grand myth, a myth about their Frisian ancestors. Why? I explained that several times alerady.

So they twisted and distorted words, events, and whatnot, as long as it fitted into their story. But they wanted some 'basis' for their 'myth', so - for instance - the gypsies living nearby suddenly became 'Egyptians', based on their nickname, but these gypsies also stood model for the Finda, based on another trick with letters and what the gypsies themselves claimed they came from.

Did you read my own example of their wordplay?

"America" << "Merica" << "Me rica" <<< "I am rich". These were the words spoken by Nep Inka when he found all that gold in South America, and that's why we call that country "Merica" and later "America" !!

This is bull, now don't try to find where in the OLB that sentence is, ok?

But what you keep doing (if this was a true OLB sentence, which it is not; I made it up) is dig and delve in who where and when called America "America", why and how and so on.

===

Interesting you mention the Megalithic Culture. That culture ended around 1200 BC - give and take - but did you or Puzz read anything about people building cromlechs, dolmen and stone henges in the OLB? Would be nice to know how they did it, eh? Well, forget about it: no word about cromlechs or dolmen or stone henges in the OLB.

.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Look, in the OLB there is a play with words going on, a play based on twisted place names and names of peoples and nicknames

-1- There were gypsies in Friesland. Everyone knew they were said to socalled come from Egypt, so the authors of the OLB thought, "Let's call them "Egyptians" " ;

-2- People back then also knew that these European gypsies called themselves 'Sinti/a/e'. In old texts the letter -f- is used for both -s- and -f-. ... The Sinti/a/e said their name was derived form 'Sindh' (India).......OK, cool. >> Sinta =>> Finda.

You make too much of it Jim, believe me. You are working yourself up by trying to explain where the gypsies came from or where not from, what their relation was with this and that, .... in a minute you start delving in genetics, lol.

Again I say: the authors of the OLB wanted to concoct a myth, a grand myth, a myth about their Frisian ancestors. Why? I explained that several times alerady.

So they twisted and distorted words, events, and whatnot, as long as it fitted into their story. But they wanted some 'basis' for their 'myth', so - for instance - the gypsies living nearby suddenly became 'Egyptians', based on their nickname, but these gypsies also stood model for the Finda, based on another trick with letters and what the gypsies themselves claimed they came from.

Did you read my own example of their wordplay?

"America" << "Merica" << "Me rica" <<< "I am rich". These were the words spoken by Nep Inka when he found all that gold in South America, and that's why we call that country "Merica" and later "America" !!

This is bull, now don't try to find where in the OLB that sentence is, ok?

But what you keep doing (if this was a true OLB sentence, which it is not; I made it up) is dig and delve in who where and when called America "America", why and how and so on.

===

Interesting you mention the Megalithic Culture. That culture ended around 1200 BC - give and take - but did you or Puzz read anything about people building cromlechs, dolmen and stone henges in the OLB? Would be nice to know how they did it, eh? Well, forget about it: no word about cromlechs or dolmen or stone henges in the OLB.

.

.

I can see how I may come across that way. Not sure if you realized but for the most part today I ws agreeing with you :lol: Admittedly, I became a little sidetracked by these Finda/Sinda people as gypsies but in truth this was only helping my own research regardless of the OLB. I struggle reading the OLB tbh but my imagination was caught when I was reading about the Magyara and the Phrygia connection.

The author of the OLB certainly seems to have achieved their aim of twisting melons and wasting peoples time and yet somethings about it may be true. Not surprising really if the authors were educated on known facts at the time but the scale of the work implies to me that they were in some way linked to esoteric circles. If so there still may be the odd nugget of informtion and that was why I pressed on. The boundaries were getting pushed too far perhaps but I still think the stuff about the gypsies and the Himalayas was really interesting stuff, OLB or not.

What did you think of the plasmoid theoires by the way? Leave Venus out of it even though it's pasage has been corelated with natural disasters. I'm just thinking that comets could have effects without necessarily an impact. The moon affects tides so theoretically could a comet cause a tidal wave through its magnetosphere or cause a stream of electricity that could fry a region. The OLB talks about a flood but could this be the result of glacial melt water rather than a tsunami perhaps? Just trying to cover all the bases and this is how I play the game - hard, fast and very loose. I'll tighetn up one day maybe but in the meantime it is what it is. :sleepy:

P.s. No I didn't read about cromlechs or dolmens but why wouldn't the authros have included them, surely they would have had the knowledge so why not add that aswell? Guess they thought it would be overkill and had to draw the line somewhere.

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Cormac and Puzzler, I think you both know me well enough, and that I always post the links to the sites or the titles of the books from where I got my information.

But yesterday I forgot to add the link of that 'place of judgement' as the original meaning of 'himmel'/'hemel', and believe me, I have again searched for an hour but I cannot find it again. Maybe it wasn't even in English.

My head was splitting, and I was hurrying things. 'Heaven' knows, maybe I dreamt it, lol !

But from the Dutch book, "Etymologisch Woordenboek" by Dr. J. de Vries (heh, Vries = Frisian) I get this:

Hemel = "dome", like in the roof of the Aya Sofia in Instanbul.

From a dictionary, "Hindi - Nederlands" by Swami Persad Bihari (I was once in love with a Hindu woman from Surinam, so I bought it to impress her, lol) I got this: 'Heem' (pronounce like 'hey-m') = snow, hail.

Another word from that dictionary: 'heman.t' = winter

So what I get from that is that the Hindi word (which came from Sanskrit) points to snow, hail, winter. And thus not so much with the skies, although I do know that hail and snow fall from the sky.

So Himalaya is 2 words, Hima - laya. Don't know what laya stands for, but I think it's something with 'place', so Himalaya would be 'place of snow'. And if 'laya' is abode (couldn't find a similar word in my dictionary), then yes, it's 'abode of snow' or 'snowy abode'.

Now, does the OLB explain it as : 'Himmellaia' >> Himmel >> heaven"?? And what's laia according to the OLB??

No, the explanation (Sandbach translation of the OLB) is different, read this:

Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens (laia), and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb49.htm

And here it is again, but now in the original language:

Tha berga hwanâ se del strâme sind alsa hâch thet se to tha himel låja. Thêrvmbe wårth-et berchta Himellâja berchta hêten.

So, LOL, Himalaya means, heaven-heaven, according to the Sandbach's OLB. Nah, the part that says 'to tha himel låja' should be 'tot de hemel reiken' = reach to the heaven. Laja = reach. Well, according to the OLB... but not according for our dear English translator, mr. Sandbach.

OK, I will give a literal translation into Dutch:

"De bergen waar ze beneden stromen zijn alzo hoog dat ze tot de hemel reiken.

Daarom werden die bergen Himellaja bergen ge-heten"

= The mountains through which they stream down are so high, that they reach to heaven.

That is why those mountains were called Himalaya mountains.

Btw, I think you, Puzzler and SlimJim, are deviating to much. Not that I say you cannot do this, I just say that you better start at the 'bottom', and that is the OLB itself.

Just look at yourselves: you talk about the gypsies for a lot of posts already, and if you don't get hold of something, you both will flie out of the window, hahha!!

Do you both still remember why you post about gypsies?

.

Mate, himel basically means an alp, sky, heaven - it alludes to the very highest mountain tops being called Heaven which appears to originate in the Himalaya, with Shiva and Mt Meru/Kailash. It's so tied together I don't think your point is very valid. There is no real issue imo with the translation into English from Dutch in that regard.

About the gypsies...what am I trying to get hold of? Nothing really, I am so confused I don't even have a side or agenda as I told you, I am looking for anything that can connect the Gypsies/Sinti/Romani/Magi to the whole tree, not a branch. They seem to be very powerful and their influence might be underestimated. I'm not going out of my way to go against you or anything nor shall I be flying out any windows...

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