[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

Mate, himel basically means an alp, sky, heaven - it alludes to the very highest mountain tops being called Heaven which appears to originate in the Himalaya, with Shiva and Mt Meru/Kailash. It's so tied together I don't think your point is very valid. There is no real issue imo with the translation into English from Dutch in that regard.

About the gypsies...what am I trying to get hold of? Nothing really, I am so confused I don't even have a side or agenda as I told you, I am looking for anything that can connect the Gypsies/Sinti/Romani/Magi to the whole tree, not a branch. They seem to be very powerful and their influence might be underestimated. I'm not going out of my way to go against you or anything nor shall I be flying out any windows...

I was just joking when I said the two of you might suddenly flie out of the window, I only meant to say the two of you were gtting a bit off track with all that stuff about the gypsies (and 'hold on to something' is to prevent that, that's all).

-

The Indians gave the Himalaya that name as it is the 'place/abode of snow'. They still use the word heem for snow, hail and winter. They never use that word 'heem' or 'him' for something high or in the sky.

According to the OLB itself Himalaya is called that way because it's mountains 'reach to heaven'.

Well, let's see what the Alps are called in the OLB.

[SlimJim22]

Hey Abe, don't know if you checked out that thread I mentioned. It is called 'Lost Heavens' and discusses precisely what you are getting at. Here is an excerpt from it.

Sometimes the linguistic references lead us to unknown eras of human history. For example, an alternative word for Heavens or Sky used in some languages of subcontinent Indo-Pak is aasman. Let us discuss the matter and composition of this word. The original word of Sanskrit language was Aashariya-Maan, which means the worshipping place of Manu. Sanskrit word Manu stands for the earliest man, who is Adam. The Aashariya-Maan of Sanskrit has been abbreviated as aashram of the present day Hindi Language. This aashram is used as astra-um-i in Latin, astrun or azurn in German, assama in Arabic and hashamayim in Hebrew, and all these words mean aasman (sky). Perhaps Spanish word altura and Italian word alto meaning expanse or height also belongs to the same tribe. We are sure that the worshipping place of the Indian Manu must also have been a peak of Himalaya which turned into aasman meaning sky or Heavens afterwards.

All these linguistic references, chronicles and traditions prove that the great Himalayan ranges from Tibet, Kashmir, Gilgit, and Hunza to the valleys of Hindukush ranges including Swat, Keelash and Chitral, were Heavens for ancient men, but a specific peak, Mount Manu held central position amongst the extensive area of Heavens. The Mount Manu was attributed to Manu, the father of humans. According to Vedic legends, this golden colored mountain is situated in Jumbu Daweepa (Jammu and Kashmir) and Bharat Varsha (India) is situated in its south. This mountain is also given the name of Sawarg meaning Heavens and hence it was called the abode of Brahma, the creator of universe. It was believed that only pious people can live here, sinners cannot reside there. The beautiful valley of Jammu & Kashmir is still called the Heavens. It is not only in phrasal sense, but also has the historical background. Even today when we view the peerless natural beauty of this valley, the legendary image of Heavens fills our minds. Vedic legend tells us that Mount Manu is golden in color. In Vedic Sanskrit language, word Him means golden as well as Himalayan mountain range.

Sumerian Paradise of Dilmun (Tilmun):

The ancient Indians gave another name to this mountain i.e. Tilmanu. The word Til gives the meaning of hill, knoll, cliff or hillock. The same words with minor differences in pronunciation, like tila, teela and thala are still being used in Indo-Pak languages whereas til means hillock in Arabic language as well. The word til is also used as a prefix or suffix with the names of some towns and places of Pakistan (ancient land of India). For example the ancient name of a historical town of Pakistan was Taxila Taksa-Sheela. Here the word Sheela means hillock. Another Pakistani town situated in the province Punjab is known as Tala-Gang. The ancient name of yet another town of Punjab was Tal-Wandi (mandi) which is called Nankana-Sahib nowadays. A holy mountain of Indians, Tila-Jogian is also a part of the Pakistani Punjab. In light of the above evidences, it could be concluded that the Mount Manu which is situated in Jammu & Kashmir must have been called Til-Manu by ancient Indians. When those Indians migrated to Mesopotamia and settled there in an unknown age, they named their colonies as Til-Asmara, Til Al-Maqiyar, Til Al -Madain etc. Maybe Til-Dalay in Egypt and Tal-Aviv in Palestine were also founded by ancient Indians. There are some reasonable and interesting proofs which indicate that the ancient civilizations of Mesopotamia, especially the Sumerian civilization migrated from the land of ancient India. The inscriptions excavated from Mesopotamia tell us that the seven intellectuals who were the founders of Sumer came from the east, which is obviously ancient India. The word Sumer means Holy Mountain; on the other hand Vedic legends also tell us that seven rishis (sages) escaped the great flood of Noah (Indian Narada). It is possible that the seven intellectuals of Sumer were the same seven rishis who reached Mesopotamia. Those immigrants took the concept of the holy mountain of Himalaya along with them. The inscriptions excavated from Iraq, tell us about their eastern Heaven, Dilmun or Tilmun which has to be the Til-Manu of Jammu & Kashmir. According to the archaeologists, these inscriptions belong to the period from 2700 BC to 700 BC. It can be proved with several logics that the Tilmun of Sumer was in ancient India. This particular topic needs comprehensive discussion and a separate book can be written to that end. We will refer to only three inscriptions of Sumer here to avoid useless prolixity. An inscription of 2400 BC tells us about the onions of Tilmun. Most probably those onions, a special product of Tilmun, were carried to Sumer by ships. Those onions grew in abundance at a height of eleven thousand feet in Gilgit (Pakistan). This area is called Song Lung in Chinese, meaning the mountains of onions.

In many inscriptions of Sumer, we find the description of the ships of Meloha, Magan and Dilmun (Tilmun) that used to carry gold and silver to Sumer from their countries. Reflect on the statement of the famous scholar and geographer of the 2nd century BC, Ptolemy, in the light of inscriptions in question. He relates that lots of gold is found in the country of Durds (Durdistan, Pakistan) whereas silver is found in abundance in the land of Sethians.

Seems like Himmalaya is 'abode of snow' but it is far more complex than that. Does the OLB mention the mountain of onions per chance? There is more to it well worth a read. Thanks for trying to keep us on course, heaven knows we need it now and then.

[Abramelin]

Jim, I have no probems with how the people there saw those mountains, or what they thought of it.

It's only about how the OLB explains the name 'Himalaya', and how the people who actually live there give it its name.

The OLB is suggesting that the OLB people gave it it's name, 'Himmel laja' (in Sandbach's english translation: Himmel laia), or 'reaching to heaven'

Btw, I have searched the OLB again - pain in the head-stuff that is, lol - and the word 'laja' (=j= pronounced as the english =y= in yes) also means 'loading' (in the meaning 'to place in/ to put in') like in Dutch 'laden' or in trivial speach, 'laaien'. Another, and much better Old Dutch equivalent is 'leien', 'to place', so the OLB translation would be 'placed in heaven', instead of 'reaching to heaven' as I said earlier.

My point is that although the OLB may have had an explanation for the name 'Himalaya' ('placed in/near heaven'), it's not how the Indians came to call it: 'place/abode of snow'.

What should get you all enthousiastic now, is that I use a word, OLB 'laja' (pronounced 'laya') which now even according to my own ideas has almost the same meaning as the Sanskrit 'laya'.

==

Oh, and about those Alps: they are called 'Alpa' in the OLB

(...) Nêan an stêde fon hja to bihluda gvngon hja allerwêikes, âk to tha hêinde Krêkalana til tha Alpa ut to kêthane,

(..)(OldDutch) Neen, instede van haar te beledigen gingen zij allerweegs, ook tot heinde Krekalanden tot de Alpen om te [kêthane]

From Minno's Writings

(...)no, in place of abusing her they went all about from the heathenish Krekaland to the Alps, proclaiming,

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb15.htm

And.. Sandbach's translation is again wrong: 'hêinde' doesn't mean 'heathenish', it means 'far away'. We Dutch still have an old saying 'van heinde en verre', something like 'from far and farther away'

I could not understand the word 'kêthane' immediately, but in Dutch we still have the expression "keet schoppen' or simply 'keten', in english: 'to make a lot of noise/uproar'.

I'd like to stress the point that Alewyn used this translation, Sandbach's, to write his book. And I hope you will understand now that Sandbach's translation of the OLB is loaded with errors.

.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

Oh yes I'm very excited lol. Considering friesian was influneced by germanic and that is an IE language stemming from samskrit it is all fairly complementary but doesn't really support the authenticity of the OLB. I take your point but in the thread I mentioned I'm pretty sure there is mention of 'alt' to mean high as in 'altitude'. Could this mean that Altland from the OLB refers to highland and not old land or does the OLB specify Atland.

I know the OLB is headache inducing stuff at times. That is what I found at least as it does read as pretty poor fiction rather than authetic mythology or even history.

AS for the Alps, what do you think they were proclaiming. The only word visibly similar to Alps I can think of is Alpha.

Good work though Abe, it is becoming more clear, I can be a bit slow, (eh?) at times.

[Abramelin]

Oh yes I'm very excited lol. Considering friesian was influneced by germanic and that is an IE language stemming from samskrit it is all fairly complementary but doesn't really support the authenticity of the OLB. I take your point but in the thread I mentioned I'm pretty sure there is mention of 'alt' to mean high as in 'altitude'. Could this mean that Altland from the OLB refers to highland and not old land or does the OLB specify Atland.

I know the OLB is headache inducing stuff at times. That is what I found at least as it does read as pretty poor fiction rather than authetic mythology or even history.

AS for the Alps, what do you think they were proclaiming. The only word visibly similar to Alps I can think of is Alpha.

Good work though Abe, it is becoming more clear, I can be a bit slow, (eh?) at times.

We are talking about Indo European languages, so there will always be similar words in languages between Ireland and Sri Lanka; the OLB suggests the Freya people are the source of it all.

-

That was a nice touch, Jim: ald <= alta => high.

But the OLB talks about Aldland, because it was a 'homeland', they even use the word 'alderman', as in elder.

'Ald' is definatively a word for 'old'.

It were the sailors who pronounced it like Atland.

But suppose you were right, and 'ald' came from 'alta', high, then we talk about a 'high land', a mountainous land, or an area on a high plateau.

That would mean that an area with high elevation, or with high mountains submerged, and somewhere - if you have followed my reasoning based on the true language of the OLB, not what Sandbach made of it - in Asia, India, Kashmir, Himalayas >> Finda land.

Then you would have a big problem.. no, I stay with 'old land'.

.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

Found some more points of potential interest.

Pliny considers geography and the people he mentions from east to west. Thus not the Frisii, but Frisiavones would equate the people that nowadays are well-known all over by the name Frisians. Indeed Frisiavones can be read several times in Roman sources and inscriptions as a synonym to Frisians. Thus the question could even be reversed: Who were the Frisii? Like Tacitus, Pliny wouldn't have heard anything more but rumours about the people dwelling well behind the Roman frontiers and well behind tribes they waged war with. If, like nowadays, indeed any people with a name similar to Frisii already existed far back in ancient times dwelling in any stretch of land across the Elbe, no more can be held against this but the general concept that though Frisian influence might at a time have reached much farther to the east, the central base of Frisian power has always been much more to the west.

A second reference by Pliny to Frisiavones, in paragraph 106, located the people in the middle of the (most of al) Celtic tribes in nowadays Belgium. Here Plinius take pains to explicitly mention the people west to east, thus placing Frisiavones probably somewhere nowadays Limburg in between the Sunuci and the Baetasi. This new location remains shrouded by mysteries and no certaincy exists whether this Frisiavones are indeed the same people or rather a seccion that migrated to the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisiavones

Frisian Runes

The runes are an ancient alphabet used by the Germanic peoples. They were in use by the peoples of Northern Europe since the beginning of the Christian era (1 A.D.). Inscriptions were initially carved in wood, hence their angular shape. Inscriptions of the 'old' runic script (100 A.D. till 700 A.D.) are very rare, and are found on only 200 items. The first runes were carved in Southern Juteland in Denmark (also the place of origination of the proto-Frisians).The Germanic tribes called the runic alphabet after the soundvalue of the first six letters, Futhark. The Futhark comprises a 24 letter alphabet arranged in a unique order. This is the Germanic futhark:

f u th a r k g w h n i j ï p z s t b e m l ng o d

The runes were used for two purposes: to send messages of a plain nature, and for religious, ritual and magical purposes.

In areas populated by Angles, Saxons and Frisians, new letters were developed, to a total of 26 runes. This alphabet is known as the Anglo-Frisian Futhorc. This is Frisian futhork:

In Friesland only 21 runic inscriptions (Frisian) have been found on items of wood, bone, antler, ivory and gold. These inscriptions date from 450 A.D. to 750 A.D..

http://www.fehmarngenealogy.com/culture_of_the_frisians.htm

So they are my first two more respectable points and my other I will have to work on as only just thought of it. Could the Freya people be related to the Khazars? Didn't they come from an area close to Phrygia and I seem to recall reading that they were masters of double speak and secret dealings. I thought they migarted to western Europe at a later date but they could have spread out and maintained a level of secrecy during the dark ages. They would have needed to blend in so as to avoid persecution until they thought the time was right to resurface.

[The Puzzler]

I was just joking when I said the two of you might suddenly flie out of the window, I only meant to say the two of you were gtting a bit off track with all that stuff about the gypsies (and 'hold on to something' is to prevent that, that's all).

-

The Indians gave the Himalaya that name as it is the 'place/abode of snow'. They still use the word heem for snow, hail and winter. They never use that word 'heem' or 'him' for something high or in the sky.

According to the OLB itself Himalaya is called that way because it's mountains 'reach to heaven'.

Well, let's see what the Alps are called in the OLB.

It's pretty easy to get off track in this topic!

Did anyone check out the word Heaven and where it came from...

The modern English word Heaven is derived from the earlier (Middle English) spelling heven (attested 1159); this in turn was developed from the previous Old English form heofon. By c. 1000, heofon was being used in reference to the Christianized "place where God dwells", but originally, it had signified "sky, firmament"[1] (e.g. in Beowulf, c. 725). The English term has cognates in the other Germanic languages: Old Saxon heƀan "sky, heaven", Middle Low German heven "sky", Old Icelandic himinn "sky, heaven", Gothic himins; and those with a variant final -l: Old Frisian himel, himul "sky, heaven", Old Saxon/Old High German himil, Dutch hemel, and modern German Himmel. All of these have been derived from a reconstructed Proto-Germanic form *Hemina-.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven

So, the English word Heaven is derived from heven from heofon - 1000AD it meant place where God dwells but it originally meant sky, firmament. Old Frisian - himel - sky, heaven

Heaven (Anglo-Saxon heofon, O.S. hevan and himil, originally himin) corresponds to the Gothic himin-s. Both heaven and himil are formed from himin by a regular change of consonants: heaven, by changing m before n into v; and himil, by changing n of the unaccented ending into l. Some derive heaven from the root ham, "to cover" (cf. the Gothic ham-ôn and the German Hem-d). According to this derivation heaven would be conceived as the roof of the world. Others trace a connection between himin (heaven) and home; according to this view, which seems to be the more probable, heaven would be the abode of the Godhead. The Latin coelum (koilon, a vault) is derived by many from the root of celare "to cover, to conceal" (coelum, "ceiling" "roof of the world"). Others, however think it is connected with the Germanic himin. The Greek ouranos is probably derived from the root var, which also connotes the idea of covering. The Hebrew name for heaven is thought to be derived from a word meaning "on high"; accordingly, heaven would designate the upper region of the world.

In the Holy Bible the term heaven denotes, in the first place, the blue firmament, or the region of the clouds that pass along the sky. Genesis 1:20, speaks of the birds "under the firmament of heaven". In other passages it denotes the region of the stars that shine in the sky. Furthermore heaven is spoken of as the dwelling of God; for, although God is omnipresent, He manifests Himself in a special manner in the light and grandeur of the firmament. Heaven also is the abode of the angels; for they are constantly with God and see His face. With God in heaven are likewise the souls of the just (2 Corinthians 5:1; Matthew 5:3, 12). In Ephesians 4:8 sq., we are told that Christ conducted to heaven the patriarchs who had been in limbo (limbus patrum). Thus the term heaven has come to designate both the happiness and the abode of just in the next life. The present article treats as heaven in this sense only.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

The word is sanskrit.

So, the OLB says this: (In English)

The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens (laia), and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia.

They reach the Heavens, the sky, the firmament, the snowy mountain tops, the clouds, the snowy abode - Heaven is another word for the high sky, the mountain tops. The same as snowy abode really. The highest mountains covered in snow would have looked to touch the sky. I still think it's a mute point.

[Abramelin]

Found some more points of potential interest.

Pliny considers geography and the people he mentions from east to west. Thus not the Frisii, but Frisiavones would equate the people that nowadays are well-known all over by the name Frisians. Indeed Frisiavones can be read several times in Roman sources and inscriptions as a synonym to Frisians. Thus the question could even be reversed: Who were the Frisii? Like Tacitus, Pliny wouldn't have heard anything more but rumours about the people dwelling well behind the Roman frontiers and well behind tribes they waged war with. If, like nowadays, indeed any people with a name similar to Frisii already existed far back in ancient times dwelling in any stretch of land across the Elbe, no more can be held against this but the general concept that though Frisian influence might at a time have reached much farther to the east, the central base of Frisian power has always been much more to the west.

A second reference by Pliny to Frisiavones, in paragraph 106, located the people in the middle of the (most of al) Celtic tribes in nowadays Belgium. Here Plinius take pains to explicitly mention the people west to east, thus placing Frisiavones probably somewhere nowadays Limburg in between the Sunuci and the Baetasi. This new location remains shrouded by mysteries and no certaincy exists whether this Frisiavones are indeed the same people or rather a seccion that migrated to the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisiavones

Frisian Runes

The runes are an ancient alphabet used by the Germanic peoples. They were in use by the peoples of Northern Europe since the beginning of the Christian era (1 A.D.). Inscriptions were initially carved in wood, hence their angular shape. Inscriptions of the 'old' runic script (100 A.D. till 700 A.D.) are very rare, and are found on only 200 items. The first runes were carved in Southern Juteland in Denmark (also the place of origination of the proto-Frisians).The Germanic tribes called the runic alphabet after the soundvalue of the first six letters, Futhark. The Futhark comprises a 24 letter alphabet arranged in a unique order. This is the Germanic futhark:

f u th a r k g w h n i j ï p z s t b e m l ng o d

The runes were used for two purposes: to send messages of a plain nature, and for religious, ritual and magical purposes.

In areas populated by Angles, Saxons and Frisians, new letters were developed, to a total of 26 runes. This alphabet is known as the Anglo-Frisian Futhorc. This is Frisian futhork:

In Friesland only 21 runic inscriptions (Frisian) have been found on items of wood, bone, antler, ivory and gold. These inscriptions date from 450 A.D. to 750 A.D..

http://www.fehmarngenealogy.com/culture_of_the_frisians.htm

So they are my first two more respectable points and my other I will have to work on as only just thought of it. Could the Freya people be related to the Khazars? Didn't they come from an area close to Phrygia and I seem to recall reading that they were masters of double speak and secret dealings. I thought they migarted to western Europe at a later date but they could have spread out and maintained a level of secrecy during the dark ages. They would have needed to blend in so as to avoid persecution until they thought the time was right to resurface.

If you want to find some people who MIGHT have some sort of relation with the OLB (Friso/Geertmen in Punjab/India/Himalaya), then you can forget about the Khazars (far too recent), and better look at the Tocharians (Caucasian mummies found in the Takla Makan)

-

Jim, you can bet Puzz and I have already delved into the writings of Pliny and contemporaries, check the thread.

But my main point is (yep, I have a lot of main points, lol) : there are NO other examples of the OLB script, anywhere, anytime. You can not convince me, ever, that an empire stretching from England to Poland, from Spain to Scandinavia, only left an example of it's orginal script in some tiny village in present day Friesland.

It's almost like the whole Arab and Muslim culture has disappeared from the planet, and only a couple of pages in Arab script is left in some desert town near Mekka.

And where in the OLB can we find anything about megalithic structures? During the hayday of the OLB culture people must have still been busy building these huge stone structures. But nothing, not a word about that in the OLB.

[Abramelin]

You seem to have totally lost MY point, Puzz.

Please read my post, the one you partially quote, again, please.

[cormac mac airt]

Did anyone check out the word Heaven and where it came from...

Yes, it was in my earlier post.

My post

The word is sanskrit.

No, it isn't. The word is derived from O.S. which is Old Saxon which has nothing to do with Sanskrit.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Yes, it was in my earlier post.

My post

No, it isn't. The word is derived from O.S. which is Old Saxon which has nothing to do with Sanskrit.

cormac

I know the diff and the word Himalaya that equals snowy abode is Sanskrit. I'm not sure if you were just trying to disagree with me in some form but I was talking about the word HIMALAYA. I threw it in a bit sloppy so you might have thought I meant the word Heaven.

The Himalaya Range (Sanskrit: literally, "abode of snow", Hindi/Sanskrit: हिमालय, IPA: /hɪˈmɑːləj(ə)/), or the Himalaya for short

I do think we can see an similarity though in the meaning since Sanskrit has some IE in it.

[Abramelin]

First a correction: in post 403 I said 'heinde' means 'far away'. No, lol, it actually means 'nearby'. The Dutch saying 'van heinde en verre' literally means 'from nearby and far away", in short: from everywhere.

==========

Then something about those seas again: the Middel Sea and the Aster Sea/East Sea.

As I said before, most if not all translations say the Middel Sea ("middel.se") is nothing else but the Mediterranean.

According to me, it was the Middel Sea in Friesland, a branch of the North Sea that cut deep into what's now the Dutch province of Friesland.

Puzz said she was convinced it must have been the Mediterranean anyway, and my question to her was: "What would then have been the "East Sea/Aster Sea? The Black Sea??"

The territory of Frya's people was described as lying between the Middel Sea and the East Sea.

Well, Alewyn is gone, but I found out what he thinks is the East Sea: it's the Black sea...

How do I know? Because someone (and even his son posted there) put some of the image of his book on FaceBook.

And please don't forget: it wasn't me who uploaded those images of his book to FaceBook....

OK, here are the Facebook links:

http://nl-nl.facebook.com/pages/Survivors-of-the-Great-Tsunami/123822067631750

The images:

http://nl-nl.facebook.com/album.php?aid=22120&id=123822067631750

(and from FaceBook I also get a link to another site that discusses Alewyn's book:

http://www.grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=287241&t=287241 )

The next are 2 of these images I wanted to show you:

OLB, the early times:

At a later date:

All this means that Alewyn thinks that the Frya empire was BETWEEN the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Well, if you look at his charts, it's above these 2 seas. not inbetween.

About the names of the Baltic Sea:

In Germanic languages, except English, East Sea is used: Afrikaans (Oossee), Danish (Østersøen), Dutch (Oostzee), German (Ostsee), Icelandic and Faroese (Eystrasalt), Norwegian (Østersjøen), and Swedish (Östersjön). In Old English it was known as Ostsæ.

In addition, Finnish, a Baltic-Finnic language, has calqued the Swedish term as Itämeri "East Sea", disregarding the geography (the sea is west of Finland), though understandably since Finland was a part of Sweden from Middle Ages until 1809.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea

=-

About 'east' :

O.E. east, from P.Gmc. *aus-to-, *austra- "east, toward the sunrise" (cf. Du. oost, Ger. Ost, O.N. austr "from the east"), from PIE *aus- "dawn" (cf. Skt. ushas "dawn," Gk. aurion "morning," O.Ir. usah, Lith. auszra "dawn," L. aurora "dawn," auster "south"), lit. "to shine." The east is the direction in which dawn breaks.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=dawn

And now go to the wiki page about the Black Sea, and check the origin of it's name: not anywhere will you find a name that has 'east' in it...

==

Now a reminder of the location of these seas, from the OLB (and the first link below the quote is from a South African site from which I took this quote; notice they didn't translate the word 'Heinde') :

Chapter XXI: This stands inscribed upon all burghs -

1. Before the bad time came our land was the most beautiful in the World. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun's rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

2. On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda's Sea, on which no one but us might or could sail; on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland, through which Finda's people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts.

3. Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

4. The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rene from one end to the other.

5. Opposite Denamark and Juttarland we had colonies and a burgh-femme. Thence we obtained copper and silver, as well as tar and pitch, and some other necessaries.

6. Opposite to us we had Brittania, formerly Westland, with her tin mines.

7. Brittania was the land of the exiles, who with the help of their burgh-femme had gone away to save their lives; but in order that they might not come back they were tattooed with a "B" on the forehead, the banished with a red dye, the other criminals with blue.

8. Moreover, our navigators and merchants had many factories among the Heinde Krekalandar and in Lydia. In Lydia the people are black.

9. As our country was so great and extensive, we had many different names. Those who were settled to the east of Denamark were called Juttar, because often they did nothing else than look for amber on the shore. Those who lived in the islands were called Letne, because they lived an isolated life.

10. All those who lived between Denamark and the Sandfal, now the Skelda, were called Stiurar, Sekampar, and Angelarar. The Angelarar were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets.

11. From there to Heinde Krekaland the inhabitants were called Kadhemar, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.

12. Those who were settled in the higher marches bounded by Twiskland were called Saxmannar, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britne.

13. Besides these we had the names Landsaton, Marsatar, and Holt- or Wodsatar.

Chapter XXII: How the bad time came -

1. During the whole summer the sun had been hidden behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon Irtha. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men's hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness.

2. In the midst of this stillness Irtha began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of Irtha, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. Aldland, called Atland by the navigators, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by Irtha, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

3. It was also in Finda's land that Irtha vomited fire, and in Twiskland. Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

http://ovol.acheim.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=241

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb21.htm

.

Edited July 18, 2010 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

I threw it in a bit sloppy so you might have thought I meant the word Heaven.

Yes, you did, which is what I was replying too.

I do think we can see an similarity though in the meaning since Sanskrit has some IE in it.

There's likely some similarity, since Sanskrit falls into the language family thusly:

Indo-European

Indo-Iranian

Indo-Aryan

Sanskrit

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Abe, you said: Puzz said she was convinced it must have been the Mediterranean anyway,

I'm still on the fence actually.

[The Puzzler]

Found some more points of potential interest.

Pliny considers geography and the people he mentions from east to west. Thus not the Frisii, but Frisiavones would equate the people that nowadays are well-known all over by the name Frisians. Indeed Frisiavones can be read several times in Roman sources and inscriptions as a synonym to Frisians. Thus the question could even be reversed: Who were the Frisii? Like Tacitus, Pliny wouldn't have heard anything more but rumours about the people dwelling well behind the Roman frontiers and well behind tribes they waged war with. If, like nowadays, indeed any people with a name similar to Frisii already existed far back in ancient times dwelling in any stretch of land across the Elbe, no more can be held against this but the general concept that though Frisian influence might at a time have reached much farther to the east, the central base of Frisian power has always been much more to the west.

A second reference by Pliny to Frisiavones, in paragraph 106, located the people in the middle of the (most of al) Celtic tribes in nowadays Belgium. Here Plinius take pains to explicitly mention the people west to east, thus placing Frisiavones probably somewhere nowadays Limburg in between the Sunuci and the Baetasi. This new location remains shrouded by mysteries and no certaincy exists whether this Frisiavones are indeed the same people or rather a seccion that migrated to the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisiavones

Frisian Runes

The runes are an ancient alphabet used by the Germanic peoples. They were in use by the peoples of Northern Europe since the beginning of the Christian era (1 A.D.). Inscriptions were initially carved in wood, hence their angular shape. Inscriptions of the 'old' runic script (100 A.D. till 700 A.D.) are very rare, and are found on only 200 items. The first runes were carved in Southern Juteland in Denmark (also the place of origination of the proto-Frisians).The Germanic tribes called the runic alphabet after the soundvalue of the first six letters, Futhark. The Futhark comprises a 24 letter alphabet arranged in a unique order. This is the Germanic futhark:

f u th a r k g w h n i j ï p z s t b e m l ng o d

The runes were used for two purposes: to send messages of a plain nature, and for religious, ritual and magical purposes.

In areas populated by Angles, Saxons and Frisians, new letters were developed, to a total of 26 runes. This alphabet is known as the Anglo-Frisian Futhorc. This is Frisian futhork:

In Friesland only 21 runic inscriptions (Frisian) have been found on items of wood, bone, antler, ivory and gold. These inscriptions date from 450 A.D. to 750 A.D..

http://www.fehmarngenealogy.com/culture_of_the_frisians.htm

So they are my first two more respectable points and my other I will have to work on as only just thought of it. Could the Freya people be related to the Khazars? Didn't they come from an area close to Phrygia and I seem to recall reading that they were masters of double speak and secret dealings. I thought they migarted to western Europe at a later date but they could have spread out and maintained a level of secrecy during the dark ages. They would have needed to blend in so as to avoid persecution until they thought the time was right to resurface.

Nice post, lots of good info to learn about more.

I did check the Futhork out and found that info, seems the OLB is a natural progression of text to me.

This part also stuck out to me: A second reference by Pliny to Frisiavones, in paragraph 106, located the people in the middle of the (most of al) Celtic tribes in nowadays Belgium.

The Phrygian and Celtic connection.

Outta time, back tonight to answer some posts here.

[The Puzzler]

First a correction: in post 403 I said 'heinde' means 'far away'. No, lol, it actually means 'nearby'. The Dutch saying 'van heinde en verre' literally means 'from nearby and far away", in short: from everywhere.

==========

Then something about those seas again: the Middel Sea and the Aster Sea/East Sea.

As I said before, most if not all translations say the Middel Sea ("middel.se") is nothing else but the Mediterranean.

According to me, it was the Middel Sea in Friesland, a branch of the North Sea that cut deep into what's now the Dutch province of Friesland.

Puzz said she was convinced it must have been the Mediterranean anyway, and my question to her was: "What would then have been the "East Sea/Aster Sea? The Black Sea??"

The territory of Frya's people was described as lying between the Middel Sea and the East Sea.

Well, Alewyn is gone, but I found out what he thinks is the East Sea: it's the Black sea...

How do I know? Because someone (and even his son posted there) put some of the image of his book on FaceBook.

And please don't forget: it wasn't me who uploaded those images of his book to FaceBook....

OK, here are the Facebook links:

http://nl-nl.facebook.com/pages/Survivors-of-the-Great-Tsunami/123822067631750

The images:

http://nl-nl.facebook.com/album.php?aid=22120&id=123822067631750

(and from FaceBook I also get a link to another site that discusses Alewyn's book:

http://www.grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=287241&t=287241 )

The next are 2 of these images I wanted to show you:

OLB, the early times:

At a later date:

All this means that Alewyn thinks that the Frya empire was BETWEEN the Mediterranean and the Black Sea. Well, if you look at his charts, it's above these 2 seas. not inbetween.

About the names of the Baltic Sea:

In Germanic languages, except English, East Sea is used: Afrikaans (Oossee), Danish (Østersøen), Dutch (Oostzee), German (Ostsee), Icelandic and Faroese (Eystrasalt), Norwegian (Østersjøen), and Swedish (Östersjön). In Old English it was known as Ostsæ.

In addition, Finnish, a Baltic-Finnic language, has calqued the Swedish term as Itämeri "East Sea", disregarding the geography (the sea is west of Finland), though understandably since Finland was a part of Sweden from Middle Ages until 1809.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Sea

=-

About 'east' :

O.E. east, from P.Gmc. *aus-to-, *austra- "east, toward the sunrise" (cf. Du. oost, Ger. Ost, O.N. austr "from the east"), from PIE *aus- "dawn" (cf. Skt. ushas "dawn," Gk. aurion "morning," O.Ir. usah, Lith. auszra "dawn," L. aurora "dawn," auster "south"), lit. "to shine." The east is the direction in which dawn breaks.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=dawn

And now go to the wiki page about the Black Sea, and check the origin of it's name: not anywhere will you find a name that has 'east' in it...

==

Now a reminder of the location of these seas, from the OLB (and the first link below the quote is from a South African site from which I took this quote; notice they didn't translate the word 'Heinde') :

Chapter XXI: This stands inscribed upon all burghs -

1. Before the bad time came our land was the most beautiful in the World. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun's rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

2. On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda's Sea, on which no one but us might or could sail; on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland, through which Finda's people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts.

3. Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the Aster Sea, and westwards to the Middel Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

4. The banks of these rivers were at one time entirely inhabited by our people, as well as the banks of the Rene from one end to the other.

5. Opposite Denamark and Juttarland we had colonies and a burgh-femme. Thence we obtained copper and silver, as well as tar and pitch, and some other necessaries.

6. Opposite to us we had Brittania, formerly Westland, with her tin mines.

7. Brittania was the land of the exiles, who with the help of their burgh-femme had gone away to save their lives; but in order that they might not come back they were tattooed with a "B" on the forehead, the banished with a red dye, the other criminals with blue.

8. Moreover, our navigators and merchants had many factories among the Heinde Krekalandar and in Lydia. In Lydia the people are black.

9. As our country was so great and extensive, we had many different names. Those who were settled to the east of Denamark were called Juttar, because often they did nothing else than look for amber on the shore. Those who lived in the islands were called Letne, because they lived an isolated life.

10. All those who lived between Denamark and the Sandfal, now the Skelda, were called Stiurar, Sekampar, and Angelarar. The Angelarar were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets.

11. From there to Heinde Krekaland the inhabitants were called Kadhemar, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.

12. Those who were settled in the higher marches bounded by Twiskland were called Saxmannar, because they were always armed against the wild beasts and the savage Britne.

13. Besides these we had the names Landsaton, Marsatar, and Holt- or Wodsatar.

Chapter XXII: How the bad time came -

1. During the whole summer the sun had been hidden behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon Irtha. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men's hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness.

2. In the midst of this stillness Irtha began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of Irtha, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. Aldland, called Atland by the navigators, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by Irtha, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

3. It was also in Finda's land that Irtha vomited fire, and in Twiskland. Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

http://ovol.acheim.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=241

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb21.htm

.

Y'know, I dunno.

The top picture seems to have Twiskland too far East.

I place Twiskland in the thick forests of Germany.

The original land seems to be, agreeing with Abe, from the Baltic, the east Sea if they are in Denmark, which I think they are, Denmark is also where the Lundholme Chariot is.

Above the Black Forest to the Northern areas of Scandinavia - East to the Baltic Sea and West to the Middle Sea around Friesland..that is how I'd take it.

Finda's lot seem to be east and south of this area...?

What I do note on the map, is that between the 2 maps would be the Empire of Atlantis, you can see Lyda where Libya is and the top one shows a bit much, but back it down to Italy (Tyrrhenia) and it appears to be coming from the direction given. It almost seems to me that Plato knows the story or the knowledge, as the Greeks thru Homer took it on as their own heritage, since they themselves did descend from them, the Pelasgians anyway, (I think) read the words and translated them possibly into localised Mediterranean words and then wrote the myths, Plato knew this and I think may have some sort of message for us, that in his time they have been mislead of our (thier Greek) history even though he says that Homer speaks the truth. If Plato doubted that Troy was where Homer placed it, his doubts must have continued through all Homers work and might be his reasons for his opinion of sophists.

[The Puzzler]

If the story of the Trojan war occurred but not in Asia Minor, it would then seem the story might be about Trojans who sound a bit like the people of Frya/Freya/Freja we even see the j and y both being used in Troy and Trojan.

I think the word is the same....Freya Troy The r and the y are there so even Troia or Troja would be better.

The Trojans could be the people of Freya and the Achaeans might be Finda's people who actually first had Freya's laws too, who as they traded with the North Sea area (Freya's land) they took on everything, their religions, their interpretations of Gods, back into Greece.

Essentially the wicked Finda people (people of Freya who went bad, mixed with Magyars and Finns) all lived on the east of the thick German forests until the 2193BC catastrophe, where Finda's people came into the purer and of Freya.

Weird stuff in the Iliad like stealing the Palladium, that fell to the ground from Zeus, basically Athena and her worship and laws is what it stands for and Troy could not be taken until it was taken. When the Achaeans did take it, Troy fell and we hear no more of it, like into oblivion...all we are left with is some myths that make no sense at all in a timeframe we can find no archaeology for, Troy - Freya's land. They obliterated this people off the map except for a small group who held strong. Helen, the egg thing I was talking about.

The Trojan war, a war between powerful Mycenaean leaders and Pelasgian men attacking other original Pelasgians, still in the North Sea area, as the amber was traded, I think the everything of the North became incorportated into Greece as the fall of the Freya people reduced them to a smaller group of people, why are the Trojan lines in Britain? What about The Etruscans and their early ties to Greece and stories of them being refugees from the Trojan war, but not the Trojan war from Asia Minor...it doesn't fit.

See, they had the info right, just the wrong area so it makes zilcho sense to us - they say they were refugees from a famine after the Trojan War - that would mean they came to Italy from Asia Minor, but if they just went south a bit from Northern Europe, you get straight to Italy, from the North, as they are known to have entered, if we look at them being Villanovian Culture prior.

The Etruscans left 100 times if not more writings in the Med. than the Greeks and they have that odd Lemnos writing too, which ties into the story of the Argonauts somehow getting lost whilst coming from Colchis to Greece, ending up in the Triton Sea in Libya and on Lemnos...too odd.

The Phoenicians, (the Red Sea, Eric the Red, for all I know there was probably a Red Sea in the North) and their early Greek connection in Thebes. Could the Ph. ie: Cadmus mentioned in the Greek myths actually be a people of the North Sea, an offshoot of Phoenicians or people who also became or were Phoenicians...it seems to make more sense than him going off looking for the abducted Europa.

Abducted Europa - hey, really says it all doesn't it - Zeus abducted Europa...lol, I just realised that. Exactly what I say happened. Zeus abducted Europa. Get it? The Achaeans abducted/took/stole Europa - Europe, the original European ways of the North Sea in the Trojan war (Freja/Freya War) when they stole Nyhellenia and the laws of Freya, the Trojans. The pious followers of Apollo, the Sun.

What about Colchis, I have never really thought it fitted where it is - Aea it is really, very Aryan sounding name, Sun King, Helios, father of who else? Phaethon...in the SACRED GROVE of Aries.

Achaeans can even look like Athens to me - the Athens people. But they would originally be a North people who came into Greece at the same time (Herodotus tells us the Pelasgian body and Athenian body entered Greece at the same time, regardless that everyone says they came after and worship Mercury differently) and divided up into groups once in Greece itself. They head back up North to take down Troy. Even the Iliad has them going somewhere AND coming back. When they get back Greece is in disarray. The ones (Achaeans) at Athens banded and became the city of Athens, which is plural for the Athena's - the Nyhellenia (Hellenic) people in their cities who wanted to keep strong to her, who more than the others kept the ways of Athena that they had bought back from Troy but someone else is around - Poseidon (the old Achaean God) and Athena have a contest for Athens and Athena wins. End of story.

Hmmmmmmmmmm?

[The Puzzler]

Konered - red does seem to be a Frisian type word. It comes from old English read. Still thinking about that the Phoenicians themselves said they had arrived in Tyre from the Red Sea, translated to Greek that is Erythraean Sea, firstly for the Indian Ocean and then the Red Sea we know today. They had big boats that pretty much resemble boats from the North Sea, the traded and were in Greece. The Phoenicians got a stronghold in Iberia c. 1000BC, when the Phocaean Greek sailors arrived there c. 650BC they said the King had an Etruscan name...

The Phoenicians and Etruscans were allies against Greece in the first real naval battle in history as the Greeks wanted into the area. c. 750BC.

The writing of the Etruscans is meant to have developed from Greek but I very much doubt it. The people who landed at Tyre would have mixed with Canaanites and Syrians - their language would have become changed, probably to Semitic but they knew of an alphabet they had previously - so let's use that alphabet to write the Semitic language we speak now they say - then to Greek, a language that the original alphabet, not the new language, of the Ph. would have been....(not Greek, but an IE language stayed in greece IE but the IE speaking people in Ph/canaan changed their language to Semitic - so we have a Semitic language on a IE alphabet.

To Greek, it goes back to a closer form of the original because you are then using an IE based alphabet, take off the Semitic language and it goes back to the purer IE form - a nice Greek alphabet should be the perfect middle form of it.

Etruscan, same, but a varied form since different people mixed in the area of Italy than Greece or Canaan.

The Greek myths have Menelaus in Libya and Herodotus and the Egyptians have Poseidon in Libya too. So, some of these people Lyda, are in Libya, maybe...

I traced words and origins into the Canopic Mouth that sat on the borders of Libya for Menelaus he possibly bought Poseidon into Libya. One should ask what evidence is there if ships of any kind in the time of the Sea People because we have plenty of images drawn of them. Where did those Libyans get the ships?

[Abramelin]

Abe, you said: Puzz said she was convinced it must have been the Mediterranean anyway,

I'm still on the fence actually.

Yes, and I said "was"; I was merely remembering people to what we were talking about before.

[Abramelin]

Nice post, lots of good info to learn about more.

I did check the Futhork out and found that info, seems the OLB is a natural progression of text to me.

This part also stuck out to me: A second reference by Pliny to Frisiavones, in paragraph 106, located the people in the middle of the (most of al) Celtic tribes in nowadays Belgium.

The Phrygian and Celtic connection.

Outta time, back tonight to answer some posts here.

No, the OLB claims to be the origin of all later scripts, like Phoenician script, Greek script and runes.

It appears to me everybody is politely avoiding my point: show me another example of the OLB script, from another place, in for instance Europe.

It's said to be the predecessor of all the ones I mentioned, and it must have been used all over Europe.

.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Something else... and quite important too.

You know, some of the critics point out that the paper the OLB was written on wasn't centuries old, and dated from the 19th century.

Well, I always thought, "ok, but that's because the mansucript was copied from generation to generation (like Jewish scribes did with the Torah), so yeah, of course this paper is not 6 centuries old."

But today I read something that should make you people think really hard: the paper of the mansucript was made to look old.... by soaking it in TEA..... (chemical analysis).

Now, why would someone do that, eh?

If you found some ancient Greek or whatever mansucript, would you first soak it in tea, and then hand it over to authorities??

Just a thought...

+++++++++++

Het papier waarop geschreven is, dateert overduidelijk van na 1850. De bruine kleur kwam tot stand door het papier in de thee te hangen.

-

The paper which was used clearly dates from after 1850. The brown color came about by immersing the paper in tea.

http://members.multimania.nl/vvhdenhelder/newpage1.html

.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

No, the OLB claims to be the origin of all later scripts, like Phoenician script, Greek script and runes.

It appears to me everybody is politely avoiding my point: show me another example of the OLB script, from another place, in for instance Europe.

It's said to be the predecessor of all the ones I mentioned, and it must have been used all over Europe.

.

It could be, as I just explained how it could maybe work...

I also meant from alphabet to rune or vice versa natural progression as they did up there.

They say in the book all the citadels are gone now and paper is very perishable, also if my scenario is correct and most of the area has been over ran and the culture virtually stomped out, there will be little left of great age. So many small groups, so many variants in laguages, so many attempts at writingm it would not be that unusual to not find any of writing if it was kept in the small circle of people who kept it purely written, ie: very few. Hidden from monks and destroyed when any copies were found...

I guess you are a Phaistos Disk sceptic too Abe?

[Abramelin]

It could be, as I just explained how it could maybe work...

I also meant from alphabet to rune or vice versa natural progression as they did up there.

They say in the book all the citadels are gone now and paper is very perishable, also if my scenario is correct and most of the area has been over ran and the culture virtually stomped out, there will be little left of great age. So many small groups, so many variants in laguages, so many attempts at writingm it would not be that unusual to not find any of writing if it was kept in the small circle of people who kept it purely written, ie: very few. Hidden from monks and destroyed when any copies were found...

I guess you are a Phaistos Disk sceptic too Abe?

I won't buy it nothing was left.

This empire stretched out over all of Europe, and we only find the script in some tiny Friesland village, by a guy (Cornelis Over de Linden) who fiercely hated religion, fanatically studied philosophy, geography, freemasonry, was a freethinker, raged against religion and science, came in contact with a Saxon bookbinder Ernst Stadermann who knew a lot about ancient books and spoke many languages, absolutely adored his Frisian heritage, studied ancient Frisian laws, .. AND was a ship builder -and designer (in case you wonder why there is so much about sailing the seas in the OLB).

And why all that stuff about 'burgmaagden' (dominant female rulers who dictated what to believe and whatnot)? He hated his mother and her religious fanatism (she was an 'ultra-Calvinist; his father didn't care about religion at all)

From:

http://www.humanitarisme.nl/personen/index.php?m=family&id=I40726

-

Sorry if I keep editing while you are maybe already responding, but I have to translate from Dutch sources none of you (except maybe 2) are able to read.

.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Have you read Sandbach's analysis of the paper? I'll check your link out shortly.

Thought I'd check for some sort of basis for who these Finns might have been. Apparently they were originally from Lapland...(?) It appears they show all signs of being what the OLB says they were and the connection of the gypsies, East of the motherland, Finns, gypsies, link to India, east ...we find Estonia.

The Finnic peoples (Fennic) were a historic linguistic group who spoke Finnic languages: the Baltic Finns, who lived near the Baltic Sea, the Volga Finns, who lived near the Volga River, and the Permians, who lived in north-central Russia

The major modern representatives of the Baltic Finns who have maintained their languages are the Finns and Estonians

The beginning of the Bronze Age in Estonia is dated to approximately 1800 BC, in present-day Finland some time after 1500 BCE. The coastal regions of Finland were a part of the Nordic Bronze Culture, whereas in the inland regions the influences came from the bronze-using cultures of Northern Russia. The development of the borders between the Finnic peoples and the Balts was under way. The first fortified settlements, Asva and Ridala on the island of Saaremaa and Iru in the Northern Estonia, began to be built. The development of shipbuilding facilitated the spread of bronze. Changes took place in burial customs, a new type of burial ground spread from Germanic to Estonian areas, stone cist graves and cremation burials became increasingly common aside small number of boat-shaped stone graves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic_peoples

Estonians (Estonian: eestlased, previously maarahvas) are a Finnic people closely related to the Finns and inhabiting, primarily, the country of Estonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonians

It is speculated that name survived as specifically Estonians and is the origin of the modern national name of Estonia: Eesti in Estonian, Eistland in ancient Scandinavian sagas, and Estia, Hestia and Estonia in early Latin sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aestii

I'm not sure how accurate this Joshua Project is but it says the gypsies of Estonia, (Romani) came from India and there and in the Middle East they are known as Dom, it went to Rom - Romani - http://www.joshuaproject.net/people-profile.php?peo3=11081&rog3=EN

Maybe the Estonian people are the people of Finda then, who were from Scandinavia, left, took in Finns and Magyar, gypsies. Estonia - EastLand.

I note the word Hestia is there, a lady of the hearth/lamp - an ancient 'Greek' Goddess who was replaced later in the 12 Olympian Gods by young Dionysus. Hestia, an Estonian - the Eastland Goddess of the lamp - Hestia. She is also mentioned as not being an Egyptian Goddess in Herodotus list.

[Abramelin]

We are definitely on different wave lenghts.

I analyze the sources, the OLB itself, and the ones who wrote it/ published it / found it, you are nibbling at the other end, lol.

If only you could read and understand Dutch, then you would know there is a WEALTH of information available, and you wouldn't bother again about searching for clues in ancient Greek legends and so on.

No, as far as I know Sandbach never analyzed anything (which is clear by all his mistakes in his English translation).

And he was one of the most correct translators, lol.

You also seem to forget, that aside from their knowledge of Frisian language, Old Frisian language and laws, these people (Haverschmidt, over de Linden, Verwijs and others) had an extended knowledge of Greek mythology, other ancient mythology (like the Norse and German) and ancient languages.

Better: you and I have to google like madmen to find what they already knew by heart, and probably read in it's original language.

.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Abramelin