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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


Riaan

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We are definitely on different wave lenghts.

I analyze the sources, the OLB itself, and the ones who wrote it/ published it / found it, you are nibbling at the other end, lol.

If only you could read and understand Dutch, then you would know there is a WEALTH of information available, and you wouldn't bother again about searching for clues in ancient Greek legends and so on.

No, as far as I know Sandbach never analyzed anything (which is clear by all his mistakes in his English translation).

And he was one of the most correct translators, lol.

You also seem to forget, that aside from their knowledge of Frisian language, Old Frisian language and laws, these people (Haverschmidt, over de Linden, Verwijs and others) had an extended knowledge of Greek mythology, other ancient mythology (like the Norse and German) and ancient languages.

Better: you and I have to google like madmen to find what they already knew by heart, and probably read in it's original language.

.

I admit it's hard to challenge Goffe Jensma's credentials and I can even say it might be written by these 3 intelligent men with some sort of plot attached.

I don't understand why 3 men who were extremely proud of their heritage and issues they felt strongly about would concoct a load of bull for it just to create a hoax.

Here's one it may be if I had a sceptical approach - if it was written by them, with information and history, known tales and legends they knew about Goddesses and laws and who their people really were, if they were so versed in everything they may have realised what their true heritage was and created it in the form of a diary manuscript, so I think, that even if it written as a 'hoax' of sorts it still contains knowledge of the Frisians and their beginnings. It would not have had to be written because this type of culture usually passed history on orally so the info, even if written now, is still correct by tradition.

Edited by The Puzzler
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We are definitely on different wave lenghts.

I analyze the sources, the OLB itself, and the ones who wrote it/ published it / found it, you are nibbling at the other end, lol.

If only you could read and understand Dutch, then you would know there is a WEALTH of information available, and you wouldn't bother again about searching for clues in ancient Greek legends and so on.

No, as far as I know Sandbach never analyzed anything (which is clear by all his mistakes in his English translation).

And he was one of the most correct translators, lol.

You also seem to forget, that aside from their knowledge of Frisian language, Old Frisian language and laws, these people (Haverschmidt, over de Linden, Verwijs and others) had an extended knowledge of Greek mythology, other ancient mythology (like the Norse and German) and ancient languages.

Better: you and I have to google like madmen to find what they already knew by heart, and probably read in it's original language.

.

I nibble because I see real archaeological and linguistic links that it says we should find like the one I just gave.

If you can find the full English version of his edition, I did once, I'll keep looking, it has a run down in it of what he says about the paper and the way the text is created.

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I admit it's hard to challenge Goffe Jensma's credentials and I can even say it might be written by these 3 intelligent men with some sort of plot attached.

I don't understand why 3 men who were extremely proud of their heritage and issues they felt strongly about would concoct a load of bull for it just to create a hoax.

Here's one it may be if I had a sceptical approach - if it was written by them, with information and history, known tales and legends they knew about Goddesses and laws and who their people really were, if they were so versed in everything they may have realised what their true heritage was and created it in the form of a diary manuscript, so I think, that even if it written as a 'hoax' of sorts it still contains knowledge of the Frisians and their beginnings. It would not have had to be written because this type of culture usually passed history on orally so the info, even if written now, is still correct by tradition.

You say you don't understand why they might have done it....

At least two of the men who are seen as 'suspects' had strong motives to create a fabulation like the OLB; please read about Over de Linden in my former post. Most I found out even without reading what Jensma has to say about them.

Of course they used parts of the REAL tradition of the Frisians, of course they used the real history of Greeks and Phoenicians and whoever, of course they read and understood ancient languages.

Btw, I also read online (in Dutch) that these guys had done their best to talk Ottema out of his dreams of it being a real ancient document. But Ottema wouldn't buy it, he was hooked.

If you had a sceptical approach.... jeesh Puzz, YOU would be sceptical if you knew what is known about these guys.

For me it's like buying a very ancient marble Greek figurine, dancing around my room with joy, and find out an hour later that something is written on the bottom.......... Made in China.

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You say you don't understand why they might have done it....

At least two of the men who are seen as 'suspects' had strong motives to create a fabulation like the OLB; please read about Over de Linden in my former post. Most I found out even without reading what Jensma has to say about them.

Of course they used parts of the REAL tradition of the Frisians, of course they used the real history of Greeks and Phoenicians and whoever, of course they read and understood ancient languages.

Btw, I also read online (in Dutch) that these guys had done their best to talk Ottema out of his dreams of it being a real ancient document. But Ottema wouldn't buy it, he was hooked.

If you had a sceptical approach.... jeesh Puzz, YOU would be sceptical if you knew what is known about these guys.

For me it's like buying a very ancient marble Greek figurine, dancing around my room with joy, and find out an hour later that something is written on the bottom.......... Made in China.

lol

You say: Of course they used parts of the REAL tradition of the Frisians, of course they used the real history of Greeks and Phoenicians and whoever, of course they read and understood ancient languages.

But even now we don't really know the real history of the Greeks and Phoenicians...how did they? If it is not real history it certainly fills in the gaps.

Here's the thing - I am a sceptic. I am sceptical of who is saying it's a hoax and what their own motives might be in keeping this in the bin.

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His concluding remarks are to the following effect

"If the book is a romance, then I must admit that it has been written with a good object, and by a clever man, because the sentiments expressed in it are of a highly moral tendency; and the facts related, so far as they can be controlled by regular history, are not untruthful; and where they deal with events of which we have no historical records, they do not offend our ideas of possibility or even probability."

...and here lies my dilemma, the actual events they tell of are NOT unprobable and even are not offensive possibilities. So, in retrospect, if the book is a hoax, I couldn't give a toss, because the information in it are/might be answers to real historical questions we have.

Some more from Sandbach's intro, this was the part I was trying to find where he gives us a rundown on the paper etc...

Immediately occurred to me Cæsar's remark upon the writing of the Gauls and the Helvetians in his "Bello Gallico" (i. 29, and vi. 14), "Græcis utuntur literis," though it appears in v. 48 that they were not entirely Greek letters. Cæsar thus points out only a resemblance—and a very true one—as the writing, which does not altogether correspond with any known form of letters, resembles the most, on a cursory view, the Greek writing, such as is found on monuments and the oldest manuscripts, and belongs to the form which is called lapidary. Besides, I formed the opinion afterwards that the writer of the latter part of the book had been a contemporary of Cæsar.

The form and the origin of the writing is so minutely and fully described in the first part of the book, as it could not be in any other language. It is very complete, and consists of thirty-four letters, among which are three separate forms of a and u, and two of e, i, y, and o, besides four pairs of double consonants ng, th, hs, and gs. The ng, which as a nasal sound has no particular mark in any other Western language, is an indivisible conjunction; the th is soft, as in English, and is sometimes replaced by d; the gs is seldom met with—I believe only in the word segse, to say, in modern Fries sidse, pronounced sisze.

The paper, of large quarto size, is made of cotton, not very thick, without water-mark or maker's mark, made upon a frame or wire-web, with not very broad perpendicular lines.

An introductory letter gives the year 1256 as that

p. vii

in which this manuscript was written by Hiddo overa Linda on foreign paper. Consequently it must have come from Spain, where the Arabs brought into the market paper manufactured from cotton.

On this subject, W. Wattenbach writes in his "Das Schriftwesen im Mittelalter" (Leipzig, 1871), s. 93:—

"The manufacture of paper from cotton must have been in use among the Chinese from very remote times, and must have become known to the Arabs by the conquest of Samarcand about the year 704. In Damascus this manufacture was an important branch of industry, for which reason it was called Charta Damascena. By the Arabians this art was brought to the Greeks. It is asserted that Greek manuscripts of the tenth century written upon cotton paper exist, and that in the thirteenth century it was much more used than parchment. To distinguish it from Egyptian paper it was called Charta bombicina, gossypina, cuttunea, xylina. A distinction from linen paper was not yet necessary. In the manufacture of the cotton paper raw cotton was originally used. We first find paper from rags mentioned by Petrus Clusiacensis (1122-50).

"The Spaniards and the Italians learned the manufacture of this paper from the Arabians. The most celebrated factories were at Jativa, Valencia, Toledo, besides Fabriano in the March of Ancona." *

In Germany the use of this material did not become very extended, whether it came from Italy or Spain. Therefore the further this preparation spread from the East and the adjoining countries, the more necessity there was that linen should take the place of cotton. A document of Kaufbeuren on linen paper of the year 1318 is of very doubtful genuineness. Bodman considers the oldest pure

p. viii

linen paper to be of the year 1324, but up to 1350 much mixed paper was used. All carefully-written manuscripts of great antiquity show by the regularity of their lines that they must have been ruled, even though no traces of the ruled lines can be distinguished. To make the lines they used a thin piece of lead, a ruler, and a pair of compasses to mark the distances.

In old writings the ink is very black or brown; but while there has been more writing since the thirteenth century, the colour of the ink is often grey or yellowish, and sometimes quite pale, showing that it contains iron. All this affords convincing proof that the manuscript before us belongs to the middle of the thirteenth century, written with clear black letters between fine lines carefully traced with lead. The colour of the ink shows decidedly that it does not contain iron. By these evidences the date given, 1256, is satisfactorily proved, and it is impossible to assign any later date. Therefore all suspicion of modern deception vanishes.

The language is very old Fries, still older and purer than the Fries Rjuchtboek or old Fries laws, differing from that both in form and spelling, so that it appears to be an entirely distinct dialect, and shows that the locality of the language must have been (as it was spoken) between the Vlie and the Scheldt.

The style is extremely simple, concise, and unembarrassed, resembling that of ordinary conversation, and free in the choice of the words. The spelling is also simple and easy, so that the reading of it does not involve the least difficulty, and yet with all its regularity, so unrestricted, that each of the separate writers who have worked at the book has his own peculiarities, arising from the changes in pronunciation in a long course of years, which naturally must have happened, as the last part of the work is written five centuries after the first.

p. ix

As a specimen of antiquity in language and writing, I believe I may venture to say that this book is unique of its kind.

The writing suggests an observation which may be of great importance.

The Greeks know and acknowledge that their writing was not their own invention. They attribute the introduction of it to Kadmus, a Phenician. The names of their oldest letters, from Alpha to Tau, agree so exactly with the names of the letters in the Hebrew alphabet, with which the Phenician will have been nearly connected, that we cannot doubt that the Hebrew was the origin of the Phenician. But the form of their letters differs so entirely from that of the Phenician and Hebrew writing, that in that particular no connection can be thought of between them. Whence, then, have the Greeks derived the form of their letters?

From "thet bok thêra Adele folstar" ("The Book of Adela's Followers") we learn that in the time when Kadmus is said to have lived, about sixteen centuries. before Christ, a brisk trade existed between the Frisians and the Phenicians, whom they named Kadhemar, or dwellers on the coast.

The name Kadmus comes too near the word Kadhemar for us not to believe that Kadmus simply meant a Phenician.

Further on we learn that about the same time a priestess of the castle in the island of Walcheren, Min-erva, also called Nyhellenia, had settled in Attica at the head of a Frisian colony, and had founded a castle at Athens. Also, from the accounts written on the walls of Waraburch, that the Finns likewise had a writing of their own—a very troublesome and difficult one to read—and that, therefore, the Tyrians and the Greeks had learned the writing of Frya. By this representation the whole thing explains itself, and it becomes clear whence comes the exterior

p. x

resemblance between the Greek and the old Fries writing, which Cæsar also remarked among the Gauls; as likewise in what manner the Greeks acquired and retained the names of the Finn and the forms of the Fries writing.

Equally remarkable are the forms of their figures. We usually call our figures Arabian, although they have not the least resemblance to those used by the Arabs. The Arabians did not bring their ciphers from the East, because the Semitic nations used the whole alphabet in writing numbers. The manner of expressing all numbers by ten signs the Arabs learned in the West, though the form was in some measure corresponding with their writing, and was written from left to right, after the Western fashion. Our ciphers seem here to have sprung from the Fries ciphers (siffar), which form had the same origin as the handwriting, and is derived from the lines of the Juul?

If we doubt his translation to English from Dutch: I have also followed Dr Ottema's plan of printing the original Frisian opposite to the translation, so that any reader possessing a knowledge of the language may verify the correctness of the translation.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb02.htm

Edited by The Puzzler
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lol

You say: Of course they used parts of the REAL tradition of the Frisians, of course they used the real history of Greeks and Phoenicians and whoever, of course they read and understood ancient languages.

But even now we don't really know the real history of the Greeks and Phoenicians...how did they? If it is not real history it certainly fills in the gaps.

Here's the thing - I am a sceptic. I am sceptical of who is saying it's a hoax and what their own motives might be in keeping this in the bin.

OK, if we go notpicking... with real history of the Greeks and Phoenicians I mean they used the ancient texts (in Greek and Latin) available to them, as they are to you and me now.

I think if I am determined enough, and am willing to spend a lot of time and energy at it, and if I am able to find at least 2 or 3 persons with enough knowledge of ancient languages and myths (and I mean by years of serious study, not Googling), and also one who is very knowledgable about archeology (a professional), then I think I can concoct a 'real' ancient document about a country called "Odugurilana" that once was located in what's now the North Sea...

Script? No problem: I will mix several existing scripts, throw them in grinder, add a few extra self-made letters, delete some that I don't like, shake it again, and voila.

Ink? No problem at all: a mix of ochre, blood, egg yoke, carbon, and whatever.

You say you are a sceptic? Then why didn't you start with the OLB text itself and the ones who published it? No, you jumped on the wagon, and did your utter best to come up with ancient Greek and other legends to prove the authenticity of the OLB, as presented by Alewyn.

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Oh, and maybe you don't know, but Sandbach published his translation in 1876.

OK, let's forget what they found out in the more than 100 years after him; all his successors who all came to the conclusion it was fake were nothing but critics and partypoopers.

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I did start with the text, I have spent half this thread deciphering the text and linking texts. I have given you oodles of info on languages and how Frisian developed, how Dutch comprises parts of it, everything you challenged me with, I gave valid answers imo. I did read what they all had to say and I don't accept it completely yet, simple. Did you read what Sandbach said about the paper and writing? What makes him less qualified to make a researched decision?

Gotta get sleep for now...must say, it's all very educational :tu:

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I did start with the text, I have spent half this thread deciphering the text and linking texts. I have given you oodles of info on languages and how Frisian developed, how Dutch comprises parts of it, everything you challenged me with, I gave valid answers imo. I did read what they all had to say and I don't accept it completely yet, simple. Did you read what Sandbach said about the paper and writing? What makes him less qualified to make a researched decision?

Gotta get sleep for now...must say, it's all very educational :tu:

And I gave you translations based on the DUTCH language used by Ottema. OK, if your Dutch is better than mine, I give up.

I also gave you direct and literal tranlstions of the OLB text, using Dutch and OLD Dutch, and my text was almost carbon copy of the OLB text.

You just managed to translate (and wrongly) some words too...

--

Just one of the many examples I gave of Sandbach's mistakes (and let's hope it were mistakes and not deliberate distortions, him knowing full well no English/American would ever take the trouble to check for him/herself...) :

Sandbach:

"Moreover, our sailors and merchants had many factories among the distant Krekalanders and in Lydia."

Wrong, it's not the 'distant Krekalander', it's the nearby Krekalander. Ottema uses the word 'heinde', and nothing else. He lived in the 19th century, so he used 19th century Dutch to translate. 'Heinde' means nearby, NOT distant.

Sorry.

And some other came up with (obviously he wasn't able to read Dutch either) with 'heathen' as translation for 'heinde', god.

Edited by Abramelin
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I see the cavalry has arrived, LOL !!

Welcome back, Jaylemurphe.

HHHEEEEEELLLLLPPPPPP !!!

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His concluding remarks are to the following effect

In old writings the ink is very black or brown; but while there has been more writing since the thirteenth century, the colour of the ink is often grey or yellowish, and sometimes quite pale, showing that it contains iron. All this affords convincing proof that the manuscript before us belongs to the middle of the thirteenth century, written with clear black letters between fine lines carefully traced with lead. The colour of the ink shows decidedly that it does not contain iron. By these evidences the date given, 1256, is satisfactorily proved, and it is impossible to assign any later date. Therefore all suspicion of modern deception vanishes.[/b]

If sandbach had access to this information and the rest so nearly at the time the OLB came to light, does it not stand to reason that any knowledgeable forger would as well? And how does the tea figure in?

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If sandbach had access to this information and the rest so nearly at the time the OLB came to light, does it not stand to reason that any knowledgeable forger would as well? And how does the tea figure in?

As far as I know Sandbach never talks about a chemical analysis.

He either accepted what he heard from someone, or he just gave his opinion from what he observed.

Traces of tea can be found by it's components: theobromin, tannin. Maybe I forgot some (I did that analyses myself, back when I was still a lab assistent; grey history now, sigh..)

My question was: why would anyone first submerge an 'ancient' document in tea, and then hand it over to someone else?

He just liked that coloration more??

++++++++++++++++++

Jaylmurph just left... damn.

Say, Oniomancer, you happen to be a linguist?

Or is there anyone else here who speaks Dutch, or preferrably Frisian???

Yep, I know, Puzz will say the OLB is not in Frisian, agreed. Every linguist (Dutch, Frisian, German) who studied the OLB says it's written in a mix of Dutch, Frisian, old and new, spiced up with much more modern French and German words (but distorted).

I call it "Frutch" (Frisian-Dutch), and that's why I can read and give an almost literal translation of many sentences in the OLB.

Must be nothing but a coincidence, right?

.

Edited by Abramelin
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As far as I know Sandbach never talks about a chemical analysis.

He either accepted what he heard from someone, or he just gave his opinion from what he observed.

Traces of tea can be found by it's components: theobromin, tannin. Maybe I forgot some (I did that analyses myself, back when I was still a lab assistent; grey history now, sigh..)

My question was: why would anyone first submerge an 'ancient' document in tea, and then hand it over to someone else?

He just liked that coloration more??

That's it exactly. Puzzler either missed that entirely or skipped over it in favor of Sandbach's (sandbox?) expertise, which it tends to subvert. It should be added that even if the paper itself were authentic that still wouldn't automatically mean the manuscript was. Unused or recycled antique paper and parchment have been surprisingly easy to come by in the past.

Jaylmurph just left... damn.

Say, Oniomancer, you happen to be a linguist?

Are you kidding? I can barely manage English alone and I'm a "native" speaker.

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That's it exactly. Puzzler either missed that entirely or skipped over it in favor of Sandbach's (sandbox?) expertise, which it tends to subvert. It should be added that even if the paper itself were authentic that still wouldn't automatically mean the manuscript was. Unused or recycled antique paper and parchment have been surprisingly easy to come by in the past.

+++++++

Are you kidding? I can barely manage English alone and I'm a "native" speaker.

"Sandbach", well, 'sand' = sand, 'bach' (the Loch Ness -ch-) is creek, 'beek' in Dutch.

Sandy creek, in short.

--

If you wanted clean, unused paper back then, you used the first and last pages of a book. Back then a book always had unwritten leaves at the front and at the end. I know how that works, I have cut, shaped, and printed books myself.

I can still get clean 2 centuries old paper here from a famous second hand shop ("De Slegte`).

'''''''

Jesus, I speak Dutch, English, German, a bit of Spanish, and a bit of French.........

Am I nothing but a genius, or are you English speaking people just spoiled beyond compare, the English language being the present ´lingua franca´??

Edited by Abramelin
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And I gave you translations based on the DUTCH language used by Ottema. OK, if your Dutch is better than mine, I give up.

I also gave you direct and literal tranlstions of the OLB text, using Dutch and OLD Dutch, and my text was almost carbon copy of the OLB text.

You just managed to translate (and wrongly) some words too...

--

Just one of the many examples I gave of Sandbach's mistakes (and let's hope it were mistakes and not deliberate distortions, him knowing full well no English/American would ever take the trouble to check for him/herself...) :

Sandbach:

"Moreover, our sailors and merchants had many factories among the distant Krekalanders and in Lydia."

Wrong, it's not the 'distant Krekalander', it's the nearby Krekalander. Ottema uses the word 'heinde', and nothing else. He lived in the 19th century, so he used 19th century Dutch to translate. 'Heinde' means nearby, NOT distant.

Sorry.

And some other came up with (obviously he wasn't able to read Dutch either) with 'heathen' as translation for 'heinde', god.

Maybe you are getting things wrong yourself....

Firstly, he doesn't mean heathen as in godless people, he means as in heath, you know, near creeks, bushes, the heath - the heath-en land. It has no connection to God as in heathens.

Second, here is an article (I managed to download Adobe Reader, but it did lock mu computer up, I just had to reboot and I can't cut and paste from it so I will type what it says:

Kurt Feyaerts - on the word heinde

It appears that heinde (hand) meaning near, at hand, is attributed a variety of etymologically 'incorrect' interpretations which are still in remarkable accordance with the expressions well known overall meaning.

Accordingly, when questioned about this component native Dutch speakers give unexpected. yet motivated answers such as einder (horizon) van op de heide (coming from the heathen) van bij de heidenen (coming from the heathens)etc.

You can read more on this on page 6/28 from this pdf file. dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=2143272...0

So, it seems native Dutch do actually use the word heinde to describe the heathen.

Please don't grate on my nerves by telling me how fab you are at all this language stuff, I do understand you do know a lot but obviously you might not be as versed in your own language as you think you are... ;)

Not only have you interpreted heathen as God and think he got it wrong, when he mean the heath land, an interpretation of heinde is also horizon, distant.

Edited by The Puzzler
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You said the German meaning of hemmel was heaven.

Now you say it is place of judgement.

The Tibetan name for the mountain is Gangs Rin-po-che. Gangs or Kang is the Tibetan word for snow peak analogous to alp or himal

Now I see himal can also mean snowy peak, as you also said it meant snowy abode or abode of snow...

So, Himal/hemel really means the same in German and sanskrit - it means snow peak.

But what snowy abode do they mean? The Himalaya Mountains is rather large, is there a snowy abode that also means heaven?

Since Sanskrit and Germanic both share an Indo-European heritage, the name is probably connected to both.

How about this one?

280px-Kailash_north.JPG

Mount Kailash, means crystal, in Sanskrit.

This is not any old mountain, it represents Heaven itself...

Mount Kailash (Tibetan: གངས་རིན་པོ་ཆེ, Kangrinboqê or Gang Rinpoche;Sanskrit: कैलाश पर्वत, Kailāśā Parvata);simplified Chinese: 冈仁波齐峰, Gāngrénbōqí fēng is a peak in the Gangdisê Mountains, which are part of the Himalayas in Tibet. It lies near the source of some of the longest rivers in Asia: the Indus River, the Sutlej River (a major tributary of the Indus River), the Brahmaputra River, and the Karnali River (a tributary of the Ganges River). It is considered as a sacred place in five religions: Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and the Bön faith. In Hinduism, it is considered to be the abode of Lord Shiva and as a place of eternal bliss. The mountain lies near Lake Manasarowar and Lake Rakshastal in Tibet.

There have been no recorded attempts to climb Mount Kailash; it is considered off limits to climbers in deference to Buddhist and Hindu beliefs. It is the most significant peak in the world that has not seen any known climbing attempts.

How did I get to Mt Kailash?

Beyond the Himalayas was a huge mountain called Kelasa, Seneru, Neru or more commonly Meru which was thought to be the axis of the world, the point at which the four great continents met (S.II,139, Ja.I,25, III,247). Meru corresponds with Mount Kilash near the southern edge of the Tibetan Plateau.

http://www.buddhanet.net/himalayas.htm

Here's an arial view of Mt Kalish..

800px-Mt_Kailash_sat.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mt_Kailash_sat.jpg

An interesting thing here is not only this Mt Meru so the centre of their world and where Shiva lived, their God, it would have been a fairly Heavenly snowy abode. It's on the southern edge of the Tibetan Plateau and looks to open up onto the plain where the 4 (note 4) rivers run from.

Well said about Mount Kailash it is a very sacred and holy place. There is so much there that is undiscovered. Alot of ancient temples are still on the mountain. Also I dont think anyone has attempted to climb the mountain, there was a rumor that 2 men attempted to climb, but no one ever heard from them again. Also check into Lake Mansoravar its near Kailash and there is a myth to this lake as well. It is known to be the highest fresh water lake in the world, also I have heard there is a Golden Tree in the middle of the lake and anyone who enters these waters is cleansed of all sins in this life and prior life. Pretty cool.

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That's it exactly. Puzzler either missed that entirely or skipped over it in favor of Sandbach's (sandbox?) expertise, which it tends to subvert. It should be added that even if the paper itself were authentic that still wouldn't automatically mean the manuscript was. Unused or recycled antique paper and parchment have been surprisingly easy to come by in the past.

Are you kidding? I can barely manage English alone and I'm a "native" speaker.

Mate, I didn't skip over it, I was confronted by this:

Beckering Vinckers meende dat het een vervalsing in “mislukt” Oud-Fries was. Hij had niet door dat het juist de bedoeling van de auteur was dat het zogenaamde Oud-Fries ontmaskerd werd. Dit is één van de conclusies die Dr. Jensma stelt na zijn uitvoerige onderzoek. Hieruit bleek duidelijk dat het allemaal doordacht en weloverwogen op deze wijze geconstrueerd was. Het zogenaamde Oud-Fries moest de illusie van authenticiteit wekken, zodat de lezers van het handschrift eerst zouden denken “het is echt!”, om er daarna “doorheen te prikken” en zich te realiseren dat het in het verhaal gaat om theologie en de kwestie van de richtingen in de kerk.

Het papier waarop geschreven is, dateert overduidelijk van na 1850. De bruine kleur kwam tot stand door het papier in de thee te hangen.

Wie van het drietal in het complot, HaverSchmidt, Verwijs en Over de Linden, de merkwaardige lettertekens bedacht heeft, blijft in het duister.

De letters zijn allemaal gebaseerd op de grondvorm van een cirkel; het “Jol”.

Het Jol is een wiel van zes spaken. Het is niet alleen de grondvorm van de letters, maar ook “het wiel van de tijd”; een centraal symbool in het handschrift. Trouwens, deze vorm vinden we ook terug in de plattegrond van Foudgum, de eerste gemeente van ds. HaverSchmidt.

As Abe will tell you my Dutch is crap....

I have no idea what it says except what Abe tells me, and he also told me, heinde only meant nearby -

I see no link to any sort of analysis test or whatever unless I missed something. For all I know the tea thing might be a guess. Far from missing it, I just have to research it some more.

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Well said about Mount Kailash it is a very sacred and holy place. There is so much there that is undiscovered. Alot of ancient temples are still on the mountain. Also I dont think anyone has attempted to climb the mountain, there was a rumor that 2 men attempted to climb, but no one ever heard from them again. Also check into Lake Mansoravar its near Kailash and there is a myth to this lake as well. It is known to be the highest fresh water lake in the world, also I have heard there is a Golden Tree in the middle of the lake and anyone who enters these waters is cleansed of all sins in this life and prior life. Pretty cool.

Tis beautiful alright, I can see it it would be very special. Thanks for the info on the lake, I will look into it. Too sacred to climb. Magical.

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Maybe you are getting things wrong yourself....

Firstly, he doesn't mean heathen as in godless people, he means as in heath, you know, near creeks, bushes, the heath - the heath-en land. It has no connection to God as in heathens.

Second, here is an article (I managed to download Adobe Reader, but it did lock mu computer up, I just had to reboot and I can't cut and paste from it so I will type what it says:

Kurt Feyaerts - on the word heinde

It appears that heinde (hand) meaning near, at hand, is attributed a variety of etymologically 'incorrect' interpretations which are still in remarkable accordance with the expressions well known overall meaning.

Accordingly, when questioned about this component native Dutch speakers give unexpected. yet motivated answers such as einder (horizon) van op de heide (coming from the heathen) van bij de heidenen (coming from the heathens)etc.

You can read more on this on page 6/28 from this pdf file. dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=2143272...0

So, it seems native Dutch do actually use the word heinde to describe the heathen.

Please don't grate on my nerves by telling me how fab you are at all this language stuff, I do understand you do know a lot but obviously you might not be as versed in your own language as you think you are... ;)

Not only have you interpreted heathen as God and think he got it wrong, when he mean the heath land, an interpretation of heinde is also horizon, distant.

Oh really?

at the end of my sight/ horizon = einder

Heather = heide

heathen = heiden

nearby = heinde, from 'at hand', 'bij de hand' (old meaning, nowadays it means 'bijdehand' or 'smarta**'). We Dutch still have a saying, "van heinde en verre". literal meaning, "from nearby and far away"

I didn't even read your pdf file, but just from the name I gather it's a Belgium guy. I think it's an idiot or deaf and blind. 'Van op de heide' has nothing to do with 'heathen'. Buy a goddamn Dutch-English dictionary.

And I NEVER said "heathen" means God, either you are drunk or nuts.

Don't worry, I speak Dutch for 53 years, I also had to learn Old Dutch at highschool to read boring ancient novels.

I wonder, did you ever talk to Australian Aboriginees, or did you throw your computer at them, telling them you knew their language better than they did?

You are unbelievable.

Edited by Abramelin
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Oh really?

Heather = heide

heathen = heiden

nearby = heinde, from 'at hand', 'bij de hand' (old meaning, nowadays it means 'bijdehand' or 'smarta**')

I didn't even read your pdf file, but just from the name I gather it's a Belgium guy.

Don't worry, I speak Dutch for 53 years, I also had to learn Old Dutch at highschool to read boring ancient novels.

I wonder, did you ever talk to Australian Aboriginees, or did you throw your computer at them, telling them you knew their language better than they did?

You are unbelievable.

Why?

You didn't even read the file.

I really don't care if you can speak Dutch for 103 years, you didn't know that heinde can be interpreted as heath (en land), so your whole post really was invalid on that point.

I typed it clearly.

---

It appears that heinde (hand) meaning near, at hand, is attributed a variety of etymologically 'incorrect' interpretations which are still in remarkable accordance with the expressions well known overall meaning.

Accordingly, when questioned about this component native Dutch speakers give unexpected. yet motivated answers such as einder (horizon) van op de heide (coming from the heathen) van bij de heidenen (coming from the heathens)etc.

---

It really doesn't matter how you interpret the word nowadays or whatever, the fact is the word heinde in the text can actually mean heathen (as in heath bush) or horizon/distant.

You said that Sandbach didn't know what he was talking about since it meant (on hand) nearby, which is does mostly, but not all the time...

That is it. I don't go throwing computers at Aboriginals, you are just being ridiculous.

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And I NEVER said "heathen" means God, either you are drunk or nuts.

You said: And some other came up with (obviously he wasn't able to read Dutch either) with 'heathen' as translation for 'heinde', god.

I think I mistook your, exasperated God. for the guy came up with heathen as translation for heinde, God, meaning Heinde meant God.

Whatever - you still said some nutcase came up with heathen for heinde - but heathen can be in place of the word heinde in some cases, so making fun of him for saying heathen instead of away is mute too.

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Why?

You didn't even read the file.

I really don't care if you can speak Dutch for 103 years, you didn't know that heinde can be interpreted as heath (en land), so your whole post really was invalid on that point.

I typed it clearly.

---

It appears that heinde (hand) meaning near, at hand, is attributed a variety of etymologically 'incorrect' interpretations which are still in remarkable accordance with the expressions well known overall meaning.

Accordingly, when questioned about this component native Dutch speakers give unexpected. yet motivated answers such as einder (horizon) van op de heide (coming from the heathen) van bij de heidenen (coming from the heathens)etc.

---

It really doesn't matter how you interpret the word nowadays or whatever, the fact is the word heinde in the text can actually mean heathen (as in heath bush) or horizon/distant.

You said that Sandbach didn't know what he was talking about since it meant (on hand) nearby, which is does mostly, but not all the time...

That is it. I don't go throwing computers at Aboriginals, you are just being ridiculous.

Yes, you typed it 'clearly'..hmm. You are here for years, and you now you suddenly forgot how to post a clickable link.

"heathen" as in heath bush?? That's what i said, "heather".

'

I have a book on the etymology of the Dutch language. Do you?

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You said: And some other came up with (obviously he wasn't able to read Dutch either) with 'heathen' as translation for 'heinde', god.

I think I mistook your, exasperated God. for the guy came up with heathen as translation for heinde, God, meaning Heinde meant God.

Whatever - you still said some nutcase came up with heathen for heinde - but heathen can be in place of the word heinde in some cases, so making fun of him for saying heathen instead of away is mute too.

"You said: And some other came up with (obviously he wasn't able to read Dutch either) with 'heathen' as translation for 'heinde', god."

OK, next time I will say it in full: "OH MY GOD !!" Hahaha !!

Jesus FK.

--

EDIT.

Sorry, it's 'Jesus FC'. I don't want you to think that I use Kennedy's name to curse, lol.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Mate, I didn't skip over it, I was confronted by this:

(Snip)

As Abe will tell you my Dutch is crap....

I have no idea what it says except what Abe tells me, and he also told me, heinde only meant nearby -

I see no link to any sort of analysis test or whatever unless I missed something. For all I know the tea thing might be a guess. Far from missing it, I just have to research it some more.

Fair enough, though I'd say deferral counts as skipping. I would think however that since abe did address the point however briefly in english, going straight into the counter argument before the facts of the matter are established is getting ahead of the game.

Oh, and Google translator is your friend:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://members.multimania.nl/vvhdenhelder/newpage1.html&ei=1yZFTInRE4T68AbHwqX9Cw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://members.multimania.nl/vvhdenhelder/newpage1.html%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

except when it isn't.

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Fair enough, though I'd say deferral counts as skipping. I would think however that since abe did address the point however briefly in english, going straight into the counter argument before the facts of the matter are established is getting ahead of the game.

Oh, and Google translator is your friend:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://members.multimania.nl/vvhdenhelder/newpage1.html&ei=1yZFTInRE4T68AbHwqX9Cw&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBYQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://members.multimania.nl/vvhdenhelder/newpage1.html%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff

except when it isn't.

Cool, thanks.

I didn't counter argue the paper was tea stained, I left it for now. What I did was show an account by someone else who had it first hand, who offered some comment on the originality of it. Like I have said, I'm still not sure whether it is hoaxed or not but I think the info is more than likely true that is contained in it. That is more what my aim here is, to see if the writings match up and make sense of any 'unexplained history'. I don't know what your thing is, but mine is Greek myth and history of them, trying to work out what the myths really mean and how things are as they are. I have a topic called Celtic Influence in Greece because I'm convinced through stories of the Centaurs that Celtic people were in Greece. But I didn't know all this from the OLB at the time and to me, knowing all the links and stuff I followed in that link really brings me to my interest here in the first place.

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