[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

I am not a geologist, but I am quite sure that a tidal wave or tsunami originating in the eastern Mediterranean would never reach as far as the North Sea.

Yeah, I'm thinking along this line too...

[Abramelin]

Just reading back over the posts here cause I missed some early stuff and found this by Alewyn to which I definitely agree!!

This is exactly how I see it too and what the hoaxers apparently wanted us to believe but to be honest, she really could be, that is, if we look for an earlier version of Hyhellenia as she's a bit late (from evidence found so far). I do, however have hope she came from an earlier time frame and can only be identified as Nyhellenia in archaeology at the point c. 300BC. Goddesses have usually been around for hundreds if not thousands of years sometimes before they may appear to be, it is doubtful imo that a goddess such as Nyhellenia would have just popped up c. 300BC, she has been around way longer than that imo. She's known as Nyhellenia-Minerva and that also fits with my idea of this pagan Goddess arriving in Italy either before or simultaneously in Greece.

Here's something on Wiki about Athena, and the statue of her sculpted by a Phydias in 447 BCE:

"The ancient historian Pausanias gave a description of the statue:

...The statue itself is made of ivory silver and gold. On the middle of her helmet is placed a likeness of the Sphinx ... and on either side of the helmet are griffins in relief. ... The statue of Athena is upright, with a tunic reaching to the feet, and on her breast the head of Medusa is worked in ivory. She holds a statue of Victory about four cubits high, and in the other hand a spear; at her feet lies a shield and near the spear is a serpent. This serpent would be Erichthonius. On the pedestal is the birth of Pandora in relief. "

"The general type of the Athena Parthenos, although not its character and quality, can be assessed from its image on coins[6] from its reproductions as miniature sculptures, as votive objects, and in representations on engraved gems.[7]

Athena's head is inclined slightly forward. She stands with her left hand resting on an upright shield. Her left knee is slightly bent, her weight slightly shifted to her right leg. Her chiton is cinched at the waist by a pair of serpents, whose tails entwine at the back. Locks of hair trail onto the goddess's breastplate. The Nike on her outstretched right hand is winged; whether there was a support under it in Phidias' original has been much discussed;[8] evidence in surviving versions is contradictory. The exact position of a spear, often omitted, is also not fully determined, whether held in the crook of Athena's right arm or supported by one of the snakes in the aegis, as N. Leipen restores it,[9] following the "Aspasios" gem."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena_Parthenos

-

And here's a drawing based on the many statues of Nehalennia, found near/on the coast of Zeeland province, The Netherlands:

Nehalennia (several spellings) is always depicted as a woman sitting on some throne (sometimes standing), her left foot on a boat, on her right a dog looking up, and in her hands a bowl of apples or bread loafs

Not once is she depicted like Athena.

The Nehalennia statues (or votive things, what's the name?) date from the Roman period, and just a couple of centuries after the first statue of Athena.

Nehalennia never holds a spear or a bird/griffin, no shield, she never wears a helmet.

Why all that difference if Athena is the same goddess as Nehalennia??

-

EDIT:

Here's site in English about Nehalennia:

http://www.livius.org/ne-nn/nehalennia/nehalennia.html

But this Dutch Wiki page offers more info:

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalennia

.

Edited July 25, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Say Puzz, and that other person, you both are reading Alewyn's book.

I know it's like 300 pages, but can one of you already give us some 'beef'?

[The Puzzler]

Say Puzz, and that other person, you both are reading Alewyn's book.

I know it's like 300 pages, but can one of you already give us some 'beef'?

Like what? lol

I just got back online and am working on Nyhellenia and Athena. Back soon.

[Abramelin]

Like what? lol

I just got back online and am working on Nyhellenia and Athena. Back soon.

Anything that gave you a 'wow!!' experience?? lol.

Ah, Nehalennia and Athena. Well, I am curious to see you explain the differences between them (see former post).

[Abramelin]

Anything that gave you a 'wow!!' experience?? lol.

Ah, Nehalennia and Athena. Well, I am curious to see you explain the differences between them (see former post).

Just this: in the OLB Nehalennia is spelled as "Nyhellenia".

There were many ways of spelling her name, but none - as far as I know from those votive altars that were dragged up from the sea here in Holland - went like "Nyhellenia".

But I understand why the authors of the OLB changed the spelling in minute ways.

"Ny" means new in (old) Frisian, and "Hellenia" is close to a Greek name.

Just Google "Nyhellenia", and you will discover you only get hits about the OLB.

Wow, what a coincidence again, eh?

[The Puzzler]

Just this: in the OLB Nehalennia is spelled as "Nyhellenia".

There were many ways of spelling her name, but none - as far as I know from those votive altars that were dragged up from the sea here in Holland - went like "Nyhellenia".

But I understand why the authors of the OLB changed the spelling in minute ways.

"Ny" means new in (old) Frisian, and "Hellenia" is close to a Greek name.

Just Google "Nyhellenia", and you will discover you only get hits about the OLB.

Wow, what a coincidence again, eh?

I will bring a few things up in Alewyns book as soon as I can, I got to read a bit last and a few things stuck out at me.

As far as Nyhellenia-Minerva and Athena, again at first sight they appear very different but Goddesses are often dual or triple and often they branch off and become seperate Goddesses and are often from very ancient times, the Roman Minerva is an example, she is not a later Roman version of Athena, she really is a Roman version of Menrva, an Etruscan, maybe even Villanovan Goddess who came before Athena, Athena is really Minerva imo, or closer to the point Menrva, the Etruscan Minerva, I know that because their name can be seen as the same, pertaining to the mind (wise decisions and fair laws), Plato tells us this, Athena's name comes from the word ethenoe, wise of mind, but no one actually believed him, you check the Athena Wiki entry for that tidbit. Menrva's name seems to be of an IE root of men, mind. etc etc I have been following through and have a longer post getting ready.

I've been really busy and have had no time to get back here to attend this topic but will tomorrow contribute some answers.

[Abramelin]

I will bring a few things up in Alewyns book as soon as I can, I got to read a bit last and a few things stuck out at me.

As far as Nyhellenia-Minerva and Athena, again at first sight they appear very different but Goddesses are often dual or triple and often they branch off and become seperate Goddesses and are often from very ancient times, the Roman Minerva is an example, she is not a later Roman version of Athena, she really is a Roman version of Menrva, an Etruscan, maybe even Villanovan Goddess who came before Athena, Athena is really Minerva imo, or closer to the point Menrva, the Etruscan Minerva, I know that because their name can be seen as the same, pertaining to the mind (wise decisions and fair laws), Plato tells us this, Athena's name comes from the word ethenoe, wise of mind, but no one actually believed him, you check the Athena Wiki entry for that tidbit. Menrva's name seems to be of an IE root of men, mind. etc etc I have been following through and have a longer post getting ready.

I've been really busy and have had no time to get back here to attend this topic but will tomorrow contribute some answers.

If I understand you well, then you are saying the Roman Minerva came from the Etruscan Menvra.

OK, sounds reasonable because the Romans often adopted foreign gods into their pantheon.

And then you say that Athena came later, and originated from this Minerva/Menvra, and has to do with 'wise'.

According to the OLB, Minerva ( Min Erva ) lived 563 years after 2193 BC, that's 1630 BC.

Nw willath wi skriwa vr tha orloch thêra burchfamna Kalta and Min-erva

563 jêr nêi âldland svnken is, sat hir en wise burch fâm, Min-erva was hira nôma. Thrvch tha stjurar Nyhellênja tonômath. This tonôma was god kêren, hwand tha rêd, thêr hju lênade, was ny aend hel bvppa alle ôtherum

All we learn is that the sailors gave Minerva a nickname, "Nyhellenia", because the advise she gave was new ('ny') and bright ('hel') above all others.

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_the002thet01_01/_the002thet01_01_0027.php

In short, the 'wise' and 'clear' advise is what made them call her Nyhelennia, not because of the true meaning of the name Minerva.

Minerva lived in Walcheren, or Walhallagara, Zeeland province of The Netherlands. And later she became the head of a colony in Greece, and called it Athena/Athens. So does that mean that a goddess got her name from a city/colony?

This Etruscan Menvra appears not to be that old:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menrva

Though she was seen by Hellenized Etruscans as their counterpart to Greek Athena, Menrva has some unique traits that makes it clear that she was not an import from Greece.

She is often depicted in more essentially Etruscan style as a lightning thrower; Martianus mentions her as one of nine Etruscan lightning gods. Unlike Athena, Menrva seems to have been associated with weather phenomena.

Her name is indigenous to Italy and might even be of Etruscan origin, although that has been disputed. Carl Becker noted that her name has the "mn-" stem, linked with memory. See Greek "Mnemosyne" (gr. μνημοσύνη) and "mnestis" (gr. μνῆστις): memory, remembrance, recollection.

[The Puzzler]

Since Athena was a daughter of Zeus, a weather God, we shouldn't rule out her association with weather just because we don't see it at first. Her spear or lance can often be compared to the spear bolts of lightening. Athena is a totally Greek incarnation of whatever Goddess/s she came from.

She is compared to Neith, who could be Tanit, who seems to be Asherah etc.

I have no easy answer right now after thinking along many lines, probably no answer satisfactory just yet, but if we think some and Neith can be associated with Tanit who can actually be archaeologically linked to Asherah, a Phoenician Goddess, a mother Goddess, like Inanna, Asherah, Freya...Asherah could be a version of Freya. A mother Goddess, which really puts her more in line with Hera, who I thought Freya might be, just from her name, but then on furthur thought, since Phoroneus, according to Plato, is the first man the Greeks know of, and he brings in Hera, fire and the hearth, sounds like the Mother Goddess with Hestia and the possible fire culture of the eternal flame of Apollo, since I also equate Apollo as having a similar heritage.

Since Hera never liked Athena it stands to reason.

There is a middle Goddess as I see it, her name is Potnia. The Linear B name on Crete is Athena Potnia they think, so Athena is a form of Potnia.

Potnia was the most important goddess in Greece in the Late Bronze Age, which is called Mycenaean (1600 - 1100 BCE). She is mentioned on the tablets with Linear scripts B from Knossos and Pylos as PO-TI-NI-JA with many epithets. Some of these adjectives are of local provenience, where some of them characterize the sphere of her influence.

In Mycenaean monuments, Potnia appears with many attributes: the snakes, the double axes, the lions, the doves, the griffin, as well as other kinds of animals and sacred features. Sometimes standing alone they have to indicate the presence of the goddess.

Potnia is the protector of nature, vegetation, fertility and in this case she is closely related to the Minoan Mother of the Mountains. During Late Helladic III period (after 1400 BCE) Potnia is depicted more war-like. Armed with weapons, wearing a helmet, she is accompanied by the griffin.

J.Chadwick believes that Potnia was connected with the cult of the Earth Mother, dominated from Early Helladic time over all Aegean religion. He supposes this cult continued with a variety of names into the classical period. M.P. Nilson presumed the role of Potnia in Greek classical religion was taken over by Athena, Rhea and Hera.

I think the position of Potnia and her attributes were changing in the harmony with needs of Mycenaean community. Beside her primary function of the goddess of nature, vegetation and fertility, she had to be powerful and warlike to protect Mycenaean palaces and their cities against the enemies. That is why Mycenaeans paid great attention to the weapons, showing Potnia with helmet or sword, and it is not to be wondered that one adjective of Potnia on the tablet from Pylos was connected with bronze-smiths. In Greek Olympian religion the place of Potnia disappeared. Her role and her divine attributes spread out between many goddesses.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/potnia.html

Notice as time went Potnia became more warlike with a helmet, she sounds more like Athena there, probably the Athena Potnia we read of.

J. Chadwick says Athena can be identified with Hera, Rhea and Potnia.

If anything, it appears Athena may even by Freya herself, a mother Goddess that changed into a wise, warrior Goddess.

Minerva carries Freya's laws, so she is really a Goddess of the Mother, Athena Potnia, Potnia (Mother) with the laws of Minerva (Athena), the laws of Crete.

I say Potnia is also Tinia of the Etruscans and since Menrva is part of the triple of Tinia, Uni and Menrva, Athena can be seen to be part of her trinity.

So, although I don't have a complete answer what I do see is many things that could together as said in the OLB book in terms of how I just said it.

A stopover in Libya for a while wouldn't be out of the question, since we know from Akrotiri images boats with black people indicating travel to Africa.

I'll pull it together with something else.

I actually think a first migration out of the Gotland area c. 2700BC occurred, stopping on the North African coast and into the Med. as the Phoenicians c. 2500BC as Herodotus says they say.

Their pillars were dolmen styled rocks in honour of Tiw/Tyr - the Tyrian Heracles as I said before I think...

I think those who landed on the shores of North Africa near Egypt were from the North Sea and that when they went to Phoenicia it was the Aethiopia of myth.

This can explain how 'Heracles' is one of the earlier Egyptian Gods, that would be Tyr, the creator - settle and interact with Ethiopians.

Apollo and Poseidon should be part of this grouping imo but have not spent so much time yet on them. Artemis is probably part of Potnia too as a protector of nature and virginal like Athena as Mother Goddesses always are. Apollo is a main God in Etruscan too, Aplu.

The eggs Nyhellenia-Minerva carried were more than likely the eggs that Helen and co. hatched from.

The eggs: Minerva answered, "These eggs are the symbols of Frya’s counsels, in which our future and that of the whole human race lies concealed. Time will hatch them, and we must watch that no harm happens to them

Helen.

Which of course is in Nyhellenia's name - Helen is main egg, thier future if no harm comes to them...

[The Puzzler]

In a book I have there is a statue of Menrva c. 5th century BC with a Doric styled helmet.

Just as Athena and as the images get older it is more elaborate and longer in the back.

In Celtic lore we also have Brigid, sometimes known as Brigantia:

At Birrens, archaeologists have found a Roman-era stone bas-relief of a female figure; she is crowned like a tutelary deity, has a Gorgon's head on her breast, and holds a spear and a globe of victory like the Roman goddesses Victoria and Minerva (Green 1996, p. 197). The inscription mentioned above assures the identification of the statue as Brigantia rather than Minerva. A statue found in Brittany also seems to depict Brigantia with the attributes of Minerva.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantia_(goddess)

This image really shows what Athena's Doric helmet represents...

What else but a Swan?...

The Doric helmet of Athena and of Heracles people (Tyr) is the swan.

Now, a doublet of Athena and also the real mother of Helen is Nemesis. Divine retribution.

They both are associated with the winged Nike, Nemesis herself still is shown with her (swan) wings.

As mother of a swan we would expect her to.

Since swans are usually associated with the North, as in old folk tales such as the Swan Princess, it would be natural to assume the swan theme has come in from Northern Europe.

Etruscans married to improve position.

In the mirror below what we see is Helen making a deal with Agamemnon (presumably to marry Menelaus) to which she has agreed.

These are the names in Etruscan of the people:

DM-1

Top: Left to right: TVRAN, HERCLE, EPE VR, TINIA, RALNA

DM-6

Middle: Left to right: AECAI, MEAN, ELCHINTRE, ELINAI, MENLE, ACHMEMNVN,

LASA THIMRAE

DM- 14

Bottom: LASA RACVN

You can even see the swan in the top row behind Ralna. You can actually see a small sphinx too.

I just realised I said I thought Potnia was Tinia when I meant Turan. Or is that Tyran...hence the Tyrhennians - really Tyranians.

The apples. Where do I start? The Judgement of Paris maybe.

It is recounted[3] that Zeus held a banquet in celebration of the marriage of Peleus and Thetis (parents of Achilles). However, Eris, goddess of discord, was uninvited. Angered by this snub, Eris arrived at the celebration, where she threw a golden apple (the Apple of Discord) into the proceedings, upon which was the inscription καλλίστῃ ("for the fairest one").[4]

Three goddesses claimed the apple: Hera, Athena and Aphrodite. They asked Zeus to judge which of them was fairest, and eventually Zeus, reluctant to favour any claim himself, declared that Paris, a Phrygian mortal, would judge their cases, for he had recently shown his exemplary fairness in a contest in which Ares in bull form had bested Paris's own prize bull, and the shepherd-prince had unhesitatingly awarded the prize to the god.[5]

Thus it happened that, with Hermes as their guide, all three of the candidates appeared to Paris on Mount Ida, in the climactic moment that is the crux of the tale. After bathing in the spring of Ida, each attempted with her powers to bribe Paris; Hera offered to make him king of Europe and Asia, Athena offered wisdom and skill in war, and Aphrodite, who had the Charites and the Horai to enhance her charms with flowers and song (according to a fragment of the Cypria quoted by Athenagoras), offered the love of the world's most beautiful woman (Euripides, Andromache, l.284, Helena l. 676). This was Helen of Sparta, wife of the Greek king Menelaus. Paris accepted Aphrodite's gift and awarded the apple to her, receiving Helen as well as the enmity of the Greeks and especially of Hera. The Greeks' expedition to retrieve Helen from Paris in Troy is the mythological basis of the Trojan War.

The Judgement of Paris on an Etruscan bronze mirrorback, 4th-3rd century BCE (Louvre)According to a tradition suggested by Alfred J. Van Windekens[6], "cow-eyed" Hera was indeed the most objectively beautiful, not Aphrodite. Hera was the goddess of the marital order and of cuckolded wives, amongst other things. Hera was often portrayed as the shrewish, jealous wife of Zeus, who himself often escaped from her controlling ways by cheating on her with mortal and immortal women. Her beauty was checked by her commitment to marital fidelity and chastity, for which Paris had no taste.

Aphrodite, though not as beautiful as Hera, was effortlessly sexual and charming; thus her ability to sway Paris and her position as Goddess of Physical Love were more palatable to Paris.

Athena's beauty is rarely commented upon in the myths, perhaps because Greeks held her up as an asexual being, being able to "overcome" her "womanly weaknesses" in order to become both wise and talented in war (both considered male domains by the Greeks). Her rage at losing makes her join the Greeks in the battle against Paris's Trojans, a key event in the turning point of the war.

Seen purely as a story, such as is recounted in Bulfinch's Mythology, the Judgement of Paris is simply an amoral episode in which Paris' skill for sound judgement (for which the gods approved him) is overcome by appeals to his lust; thus a lengthy and blood-soaked war revolves upon a series of apparently trivial episodes, each adding to the momentum that drives events to their inevitable and tragic conclusions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_of_Paris

Hmm, bad judgement and he was judged badly, temptation with an apple to make an unwise decision. Aphrodite herself is associated with the swan and why is Paris to judge anyway? Possibly to test if he is worthy but unfortunately Paris didn't make the right decision so Athena and Hera withdrew their support of him and he became their enemy. Aphrodite helps the Trojans with Aries.

Point being, Helen is not born from a swan egg for no reason. Golden eggs have often been substituted for the apple imo in fairy tales, temptations best avoided. Stories of swans and princesses can be found in fairy tales too, like the Swan Princess.

Sorry, got a bit off track there but I think it all ties in with how Athena came to be and who she was if I want to identify if she has a link back to Nahelenia, who may have once been Nyhellenia- real name Minerva. Helen and Athena and the story of the swan into Greece.

PS: Tinia could be Tyndareus, King of Sparta and is this Sparta in the Peloponnese I wonder.

Edited August 2, 2010 by The Puzzler

[SlimJim22]

Since Athena was a daughter of Zeus, a weather God, we shouldn't rule out her association with weather just because we don't see it at first. Her spear or lance can often be compared to the spear bolts of lightening. Athena is a totally Greek incarnation of whatever Goddess/s she came from.

She is compared to Neith, who could be Tanit, who seems to be Asherah etc.

I have no easy answer right now after thinking along many lines, probably no answer satisfactory just yet, but if we think some and Neith can be associated with Tanit who can actually be archaeologically linked to Asherah, a Phoenician Goddess, a mother Goddess, like Inanna, Asherah, Freya...Asherah could be a version of Freya. A mother Goddess, which really puts her more in line with Hera, who I thought Freya might be, just from her name, but then on furthur thought, since Phoroneus, according to Plato, is the first man the Greeks know of, and he brings in Hera, fire and the hearth, sounds like the Mother Goddess with Hestia and the possible fire culture of the eternal flame of Apollo, since I also equate Apollo as having a similar heritage.

Since Hera never liked Athena it stands to reason.

There is a middle Goddess as I see it, her name is Potnia. The Linear B name on Crete is Athena Potnia they think, so Athena is a form of Potnia.

Potnia was the most important goddess in Greece in the Late Bronze Age, which is called Mycenaean (1600 - 1100 BCE). She is mentioned on the tablets with Linear scripts B from Knossos and Pylos as PO-TI-NI-JA with many epithets. Some of these adjectives are of local provenience, where some of them characterize the sphere of her influence.

In Mycenaean monuments, Potnia appears with many attributes: the snakes, the double axes, the lions, the doves, the griffin, as well as other kinds of animals and sacred features. Sometimes standing alone they have to indicate the presence of the goddess.

Potnia is the protector of nature, vegetation, fertility and in this case she is closely related to the Minoan Mother of the Mountains. During Late Helladic III period (after 1400 BCE) Potnia is depicted more war-like. Armed with weapons, wearing a helmet, she is accompanied by the griffin.

J.Chadwick believes that Potnia was connected with the cult of the Earth Mother, dominated from Early Helladic time over all Aegean religion. He supposes this cult continued with a variety of names into the classical period. M.P. Nilson presumed the role of Potnia in Greek classical religion was taken over by Athena, Rhea and Hera.

I think the position of Potnia and her attributes were changing in the harmony with needs of Mycenaean community. Beside her primary function of the goddess of nature, vegetation and fertility, she had to be powerful and warlike to protect Mycenaean palaces and their cities against the enemies. That is why Mycenaeans paid great attention to the weapons, showing Potnia with helmet or sword, and it is not to be wondered that one adjective of Potnia on the tablet from Pylos was connected with bronze-smiths. In Greek Olympian religion the place of Potnia disappeared. Her role and her divine attributes spread out between many goddesses.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/potnia.html

Notice as time went Potnia became more warlike with a helmet, she sounds more like Athena there, probably the Athena Potnia we read of.

J. Chadwick says Athena can be identified with Hera, Rhea and Potnia.

If anything, it appears Athena may even by Freya herself, a mother Goddess that changed into a wise, warrior Goddess.

Minerva carries Freya's laws, so she is really a Goddess of the Mother, Athena Potnia, Potnia (Mother) with the laws of Minerva (Athena), the laws of Crete.

I say Potnia is also Tinia of the Etruscans and since Menrva is part of the triple of Tinia, Uni and Menrva, Athena can be seen to be part of her trinity.

So, although I don't have a complete answer what I do see is many things that could together as said in the OLB book in terms of how I just said it.

A stopover in Libya for a while wouldn't be out of the question, since we know from Akrotiri images boats with black people indicating travel to Africa.

I'll pull it together with something else.

I actually think a first migration out of the Gotland area c. 2700BC occurred, stopping on the North African coast and into the Med. as the Phoenicians c. 2500BC as Herodotus says they say.

Their pillars were dolmen styled rocks in honour of Tiw/Tyr - the Tyrian Heracles as I said before I think...

I think those who landed on the shores of North Africa near Egypt were from the North Sea and that when they went to Phoenicia it was the Aethiopia of myth.

This can explain how 'Heracles' is one of the earlier Egyptian Gods, that would be Tyr, the creator - settle and interact with Ethiopians.

Apollo and Poseidon should be part of this grouping imo but have not spent so much time yet on them. Artemis is probably part of Potnia too as a protector of nature and virginal like Athena as Mother Goddesses always are. Apollo is a main God in Etruscan too, Aplu.

The eggs Nyhellenia-Minerva carried were more than likely the eggs that Helen and co. hatched from.

The eggs: Minerva answered, "These eggs are the symbols of Fryas counsels, in which our future and that of the whole human race lies concealed. Time will hatch them, and we must watch that no harm happens to them

Helen.

Which of course is in Nyhellenia's name - Helen is main egg, thier future if no harm comes to them...

Interesting stuff Puzz. I found this while searching under Potnia.

The Greeks never forgot that the Mountain Mother's ancient home was Crete, where a figure some identified with Gaia had been worshipped as Potnia Theron (the "Mistress of the Animals") or simply Potnia ("Mistress"), an appellation that could be applied in later Greek texts to Demeter, Artemis or Athena. In Rome the imported Phrygian goddess Cybele was venerated as Magna Mater, the "Great Mother" or as Mater Nostri, "Our Mother" and identified with Roman Ceres, the grain goddess who was an approximate counterpart of Greek Demeter, but with differing aspects and venerated with a different cult. Her worship was brought to Rome following an Augury of the Cumaean Sibyl that Rome could not defeat Hannibal the Carthaginian until the worship of Cybele came to Rome. As a result she was a favoured divinity of Roman legionaries, and her worship spread from Roman military encampments and military colonies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)

I could be making something of nothing but it's interesting how Gaia corresponds to Ki the original counterpart of Anu in Sumer. Also, that the mother goddesses' abode was the mountain as Ninhursag also means 'lady of the mountain'.

Nin-hursag means "lady of the mountain" (from Sumerian NIN "lady" and ḪAR.SAG "mountain, foothill"[dubious discuss])[1]). She had many names including Ninmah ("Great Queen");[1] Nintu ("Lady of Birth");[1] Mamma or Mami (mother);[1] Aruru (meaning unknown);[1] Belet-Ili (lady of the gods, Akkadian)[1].

According to legend her name was changed from Ninmah to Ninhursag by her son Ninurta in order to commemorate his creation of the mountains. As Ninmenna, according to a Babylonian investiture ritual, she placed the golden crown on the king in the Eanna temple.[citation needed]

Some take the view that Ki ("Earth") the primordial goddess of the earth and consort of An (sky), was identical to or an earlier form of Ninhursag. This may very well be the case, since some authorities argue that Ki was never regarded as a deity in her own right in the historical period. There is no evidence of a cult for the goddess and the name appears in a limited number of Sumerian creation texts. As Ki, Ninhursag would be the mother of Enlil, whereas in other sources she is his sister.

Some of the names above were once associated with independent goddesses (such as Ninmah and Ninmenna), who later became identified and merged with Ninhursag, and myths exist in which the name Ninhursag is not mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninhursag

The other thing regards Minerva. The pronounciation may be different but it looks very close to Men Nefer the original name of Memphis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis,_Egypt

This may connect Minerva to Menes or Minos.

On Tyr, I forget where I read it but I equated him more with Thoth than Herakles. I'll see if I can find why I once thought it.

I've also been looking into matrilineal descent and the reasons for it. Thought it might appeal to you. I'd be keen to know how authority was determined through descent in the greek pantheon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality

Edited August 2, 2010 by SlimJim22

[The Puzzler]

The fleur-de-lis with lance shape of the thing Tinia is holding is possibly the lineage into France of the Trojans I have been looking for, I just noticed it really but that is because I had never seen Troy in France before.

Did you know Hector is the Jack of Diamonds in a standard deck of French playing cards?

That piqued my interest somewhat...

Two French guys and Lancelot, but Lancelot's stories were written by a French guy so why have Hector in their card deck?

Seems odd too then that their capital is Paris....meaning freedom, named also after the Parisii people who lived there as well as a group of them living in England around Yorkshire in Roman times. Paris, Hector - do the French claim some sort of Trojan background I'm unaware of...

So, why have Hector on thier card deck, anyone know?

[The Puzzler]

Interesting stuff Puzz. I found this while searching under Potnia.

The Greeks never forgot that the Mountain Mother's ancient home was Crete, where a figure some identified with Gaia had been worshipped as Potnia Theron (the "Mistress of the Animals") or simply Potnia ("Mistress"), an appellation that could be applied in later Greek texts to Demeter, Artemis or Athena. In Rome the imported Phrygian goddess Cybele was venerated as Magna Mater, the "Great Mother" or as Mater Nostri, "Our Mother" and identified with Roman Ceres, the grain goddess who was an approximate counterpart of Greek Demeter, but with differing aspects and venerated with a different cult. Her worship was brought to Rome following an Augury of the Cumaean Sibyl that Rome could not defeat Hannibal the Carthaginian until the worship of Cybele came to Rome. As a result she was a favoured divinity of Roman legionaries, and her worship spread from Roman military encampments and military colonies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_(mythology)

I could be making something of nothing but it's interesting how Gaia corresponds to Ki the original counterpart of Anu in Sumer. Also, that the mother goddesses' abode was the mountain as Ninhursag also means 'lady of the mountain'.

Nin-hursag means "lady of the mountain" (from Sumerian NIN "lady" and ḪAR.SAG "mountain, foothill"[dubious – discuss])[1]). She had many names including Ninmah ("Great Queen");[1] Nintu ("Lady of Birth");[1] Mamma or Mami (mother);[1] Aruru (meaning unknown);[1] Belet-Ili (lady of the gods, Akkadian)[1].

According to legend her name was changed from Ninmah to Ninhursag by her son Ninurta in order to commemorate his creation of the mountains. As Ninmenna, according to a Babylonian investiture ritual, she placed the golden crown on the king in the Eanna temple.[citation needed]

Some take the view that Ki ("Earth") the primordial goddess of the earth and consort of An (sky), was identical to or an earlier form of Ninhursag. This may very well be the case, since some authorities argue that Ki was never regarded as a deity in her own right in the historical period. There is no evidence of a cult for the goddess and the name appears in a limited number of Sumerian creation texts. As Ki, Ninhursag would be the mother of Enlil, whereas in other sources she is his sister.

Some of the names above were once associated with independent goddesses (such as Ninmah and Ninmenna), who later became identified and merged with Ninhursag, and myths exist in which the name Ninhursag is not mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninhursag

The other thing regards Minerva. The pronounciation may be different but it looks very close to Men Nefer the original name of Memphis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis,_Egypt

This may connect Minerva to Menes or Minos.

On Tyr, I forget where I read it but I equated him more with Thoth than Herakles. I'll see if I can find why I once thought it.

I've also been looking into matrilineal descent and the reasons for it. Thought it might appeal to you. I'd be keen to know how authority was determined through descent in the greek pantheon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality

Men Nefer lol Memphis thanks for bringing that one to my attention mate!

[The Puzzler]

Slim, that is really weird. So, Menes is said to have founded Memphis c. 3000BC according to Manetho. Min doesn't seem to be associated with him but in Egyptian it is just mn...

If I read this right, around 1550BC it became known as Men-nefer which according to Manetho again means Place of the ka of Ptah which actually translates to Aigyptos.

The Egyptian historian Manetho referred to Memphis as Hi-Ku-P'tah (meaning "Place of the ka of Ptah"), which he approximated in Greek as Aί γυ πτoς (Ai-gy-ptos), from which derives the Latin AEGYPTVS and the modern English name of Egypt. The term Copt is also believed to be etymologically derived from this name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis,_Egypt

Memphis is married to Epaphus, son of Io and Zeus

They have Libya

Libya and Poseidon

They have Belus and Agenor

These 2 brothers marry their 2 cousins who are sisters

They marry Achiroe and Telephassa, both daughters of Nilus

Agenor and Telephassa are parents of Europa and Cadmus foremost

Belus and Achiroe have Danaus and Aegyptus

It is the Danaus line that comes back into Greece.

Egypt therefore to the ancient Greeks and especially in myth would more than likely represent Memphis. Epaphus is supposed to have been the one who challenged Phaethon about his heritage which made Phaethon beg for the sun chariot...etc

Edit to add:

Several notable personalities in Greek and medieval literature were identified as Ethiopian, including several rulers, male and female: Memnon, who may have been the King of Persia and Ethiopia in Africa, whose capital was Susa, and his brother Emathion, King of Arabia. Homer in his description of the Trojan War mentions several other Ethiopians, including Epaphus and Phineus. Ptolemy the geographer and other ancient Greek commentators believed that the Ethiopian Olympus of Kilimanjaro was where the gods lived when they were not in Greece.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia_(mythology)

Epaphus was Ethiopian, as sometimes his mother is given as Cassiopia....? So, was Epaphus the son of Io or Cassiopia, it could make a huge difference really. Was Io actually Cassiopeia? I do see IO in Cassiopeia's name.

We hear of Memnon being called Phaethon sometimes. Greeks even thought the Ethiopian Kilimanjaro was the home of their own Gods when not in Greece.

Phineus is a fairly European sounding name - Finn sound again.

So much in my mind and so little to write, late for me, again.

Edited August 2, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Puzz, when I saw you talking about 'eggs', It thought 'what eggs?'

But it's in the OLB that we read about Minerva/Nehalennia carrying eggs, instead of apples as we can everywhere else (and we read also about the dog at her side):

FROM MINNO’S WRITINGS

When they saw that their shot had missed they began to calumniate her, and to say that she had bewitched the people; but our people and the good Krekalanders understood at once that it was calumny. She was once asked, If you are not a witch, what is the use of the eggs that you always carry with you? Min-erva answered, These eggs are the symbols of Frya’s counsels, in which our future and that of the whole human race lies concealed. Time will hatch them, and we must watch that no harm happens to them. The priests said, Well answered; but what is the use of the dog on your right hand? Hellenia replied, Does not the shepherd have a sheep-dog to keep his flock together? What the dog is to the shepherd I am in Frya’s service. I must watch over Frya’s flocks. We understand that very well, said the priests; but tell us what means the owl that always sits upon your head, is that light-shunning animal a sign of your clear vision? No, answered Hellenia; he reminds me that there are people on earth who, like him, have their homes in churches and holes, who go about in the twilight, not, like him, to deliver us from mice and other plagues, but to invent tricks to steal away the knowledge of other people, in order to take advantage of them, to make slaves of them, and to suck their blood like leeches.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

So again, another unique explanation for her attributes.

I think it would be wise to post a bit more about this Nehalennia:

Nehalennia is known from more than 160 votive altars, which were almost all discovered in the Dutch province of Zeeland. (Two altars were discovered in Cologne, the capital of Germania Inferior.) All of them can be dated to the second and early third centuries CE. Most pieces show a young female figure, sitting on a throne in an apse between two columns, holding a basket of apples on her lap. Nearly always, there is a wolf dog at her side. In some cases, the fruit basket is replaced by something that looks like loaves of bread; in other cases, we can see the woman standing next to a ship or a prow.

-

The interpretation of the reliefs is extremely difficult, but one thing is almost certain. Since the woman is depicted in an apse, a place that was normally reserved to the gods, we may assume that she is the goddess (and not a priestess or a mermaid). However, it is not possible to establish whether she protects or tramples the ship near her foot, and we are therefore left with the question whether she caused the tempest or its silencing. (The fact that the sculptors depicted ships not wrecks suggests the latter, but we can not force this argument.) The meaning of the fruits is a mystery too: are we to think of the 'apple country' Avalon that is known from Celtic sources as some sort of heaven, or is it a reference to the transience of life? And what to think of the dog? Is it a protective animal, or is it one of the threatening 'dogs of the sea' mentioned in the description of the North Sea by the Roman author Albinovanus Pedo? Again, we do and can not know.

http://www.livius.org/ne-nn/nehalennia/nehalennia.html

====

Nehalennia is a fertility goddess and the patroness of hearth and home and of seafarers. This altar shows the goddess standing with her left foot on the bow of a ship. She is holding a basket of fruit. There is a dog at her right side. The inscription reads: 'To the goddess Nehalennia Vegisonius Martinus, citizen from the land of the Sequani and seaman, has redeemed his vow, willingly and with reason.' The Sequani lived in the area around the French town of Besançon. This Gallic seaman apparently traded with these regions.

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/?/en/items/RMO01:006855

==

So who was Nehalennia? The sculptures show a lady, sometimes standing, often sitting. She wears a long dress, with some knd of stole, or shawl, over her shoulders. Behind her head is a curved space (an apse) often filled with a scallop shell. In one hand she holds a basket or bowl of fruit, often identified as apples, sometimes pears, whilst in the other she holds a steering oar (used before the sternpost rudder immegrated into Europe from China). There will often be a friendly looking dog sitting by her side and she may also have one of her feet resting on the prow of a ship. Interestingly, none of the classical writers ever mention a local goddess, or even a spirit, named Nehalennia.

The dedications, though, are very clear. They were made by merchants crossing from Britain to Germany (which, in those days, included Holland) and back, thanking Nehalennia for getting them home safely. One such merchant traded in pottery made in Kent and he made several dedications, so he must have been a regular traveller.

==

Nehalennia is almost always depicted with marine symbols and a large, benign-looking dog at her feet.[5][6] The votive stones found depict her sitting down with a basket of apples, the dog at her side, and sometimes with a scepter in her hands. In some depictions she rests her foot on a ship, or holds a ship's oar. Several of the offerings have inscriptions thanking her for safe passage across the North Sea.[1] Hilda Ellis Davidson describes the votive objects:

Nehalennia, a Germanic goddess worshipped at the point where travellers crossed the North Sea from the Netherlands, is shown on many carved stones holding loaves and apples like a Mother Goddess, sometimes with a prow of a ship beside her, but also frequently with an attendant dog which sits looking up at her (Plate 5). He was on thirteen of the twenty-one altars recorded by Ada Hondius-Crone (1955: 103), who describes him as a kind of greyhound.[7]

Davidson further links the motif of the ship associated with Nehalennia with the Germanic Vanir pair of Freyr and Freyja, as well as the Germanic goddess Nerthus,[8] and draws a connection between the loaves of bread that appear on some depictions Nehalennia with oblong, shin-bone shaped loaves of bread baked in the shape of a boar at the time of Yule in Sweden.[9] Davidson further states that customs in Värmland, Sweden "within living memory" describe grain from the last sheaf being used to bake a loaf into the shape of a little girl, as well as examples of elaborate loaves being used for religious festivals, for fertility of fields in Anglo-Saxon England, and examples from Ireland.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalennia

==

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nehalennia-of-the-Ways/44159316170?v=info#!/photo.php?pid=1924973&id=44159316170&ref=album'>http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nehalennia-of-the-Ways/44159316170?v=info#!/photo.php?pid=1924973&id=44159316170&ref=album

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nehalennia-of-the-Ways/44159316170?v=info#!

==

Well, Freyr/Freyja are mentioned, so here they are:

In Norse mythology, Freyja (Old Norse the "Lady") is a goddess associated with love, beauty, fertility, gold, seiðr, war, and death. Freyja is the owner of the necklace Brísingamen, rides a chariot driven by two cats, owns the boar Hildisvíni, possesses a cloak of falcon feathers, and, by her husband Óðr, is the mother of two daughters; Hnoss and Gersemi. Along with her brother Freyr (Old Norse the "Lord"), her father Njörðr, and her mother (unnamed in sources), she is a member of the Vanir. Stemming from Old Norse Freyja, modern forms of the name include Freya, Freja, Freyia, Frøya, and Freia.

Freyja rules over her heavenly afterlife field Fólkvangr and there receives half of those that die in battle, whereas the other half go to the god Odin's hall, Valhalla. Within Fólkvangr is her hall, Sessrúmnir. Freyja assists other deities by allowing them to use her feathered cloak, is invoked in matters of fertility and love, and is frequently sought after by powerful jötnar who wish to make her their wife. Freyja's husband, the god Óðr, is frequently absent. She cries tears of red gold for him, and searches for him under assumed names. Freyja has numerous names, including Gefn, Hörn, Mardöll, Sýr, Valfreyja, and Vanadís.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja

==

Freyr

in Norse mythology, the ruler of peace and fertility, rain, and sunshine and the son of the sea god Njörd. Although originally one of the Vanir tribe, he was included with the Aesir. Gerd, daughter of the giant Gymir, was his wife. Worshiped especially in Sweden, he was also well-known in Norway and Iceland. His sister and female counterpart, Freyja, was goddess of love, fertility, battle, and death. The boar was sacred to both. Freyr and Freyja figure in many lays and stories of medieval Iceland.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/219975/Freyr

==

Freyr (sometimes anglicized Frey, from *frawjaz "lord" [1] ) is one of the most important gods of Norse paganism. Freyr was highly associated with farming, weather and, as a phallic fertility god, Freyr "bestows peace and pleasure on mortals". Freyr, sometimes referred to as Yngvi-Freyr, was especially associated with Sweden and seen as an ancestor of the Swedish royal house.

In the Icelandic books the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda, Freyr is presented as one of the Vanir, the son of the sea god Njörðr, brother of the goddess Freyja. The gods gave him Álfheimr, the realm of the Elves, as a teething present. He rides the shining dwarf-made boar Gullinbursti and possesses the ship Skíðblaðnir which always has a favorable breeze and can be folded together and carried in a pouch when it is not being used. He has the servants Skírnir, Byggvir, and Beyla.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Freyr

So, to explain the possible relationships between all these gods, we need to change dogs into cats, apples into eggs, add a boar, make the headgear disappear, and from Freyr (because of the boat) to Nehalennia we also need to give Freyr a sex change.

But it's my impression you open every drawer with something about goddesses; it's starting to make my head spin (and no, not because of my subtitle, lol).

Well, Puzz, you have Alewyn's book. What is his explanation for Nyhellenia/Nehalennia ??

I am getting the impression you are not allowed or willing to post anything you read in his book...

--

EDIT:

In case you are thinking of copyright: say what you read in your own words. A summary will do.

.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Let me say it again: this is about the Oera Linda Book, Alewyn's book.

Talk about that please.

I know you are hooked on anything Greek, but it would be nice if you try to stay on topic.

I do know Alewyn left this thread, and this site.

He said what he wanted to say, and left (us hanging,hmmmm....).

But I know you possess that book now (together with another person who posted about it in this thread), talk about that book , the book that started this thread.

That is what people want to read about.

Well, that's what I would like to read when I choose to open this thread.

.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Abramelin

[SlimJim22]

It reeks of occult symbolism. The dog was usually present to accompany the initiate to the Underworld and help them find their way back. The eggs could refer to mushrooms as when in a basket it was thought they looked like a basket of eggs. Not sure how this would relate to Helen though.

Alternatively, if it is apples then I would look to the 'blue apples' mentioned by Saunier and also found on the tongue on some depitctions of the Demiurge. Of course there are many interpretation for this but the one I prefer is that it represents the Thalamus including the pineal and pituitary glands that mix the salty with the sweet waters. Don't know if this applies here of course but the Phrygians were heavily into mysteries and if Freya does correspond with Phrygia this is what I'd be looking at.

Phineas... hmm that name makes me think of the scythain research and around the time of Akhenaton there was a king who was called (was it?) Phineas Farsi. His sons name began with an 'N' but I have totally forgotten it. I shall check the celtic influence on Greece thread tommor but this is what google gave me now.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_tuathadedanaan02.htm

[Abramelin]

It reeks of occult symbolism. The dog was usually present to accompany the initiate to the Underworld and help them find their way back. The eggs could refer to mushrooms as when in a basket it was thought they looked like a basket of eggs. Not sure how this would relate to Helen though.

Alternatively, if it is apples then I would look to the 'blue apples' mentioned by Saunier and also found on the tongue on some depitctions of the Demiurge. Of course there are many interpretation for this but the one I prefer is that it represents the Thalamus including the pineal and pituitary glands that mix the salty with the sweet waters. Don't know if this applies here of course but the Phrygians were heavily into mysteries and if Freya does correspond with Phrygia this is what I'd be looking at.

Phineas... hmm that name makes me think of the scythain research and around the time of Akhenaton there was a king who was called (was it?) Phineas Farsi. His sons name began with an 'N' but I have totally forgotten it. I shall check the celtic influence on Greece thread tommor but this is what google gave me now.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/ciencia/ciencia_tuathadedanaan02.htm

Oera Linda Book.

What?

OERA LINDA BOOK.

Oh?

Yeah.

[The Puzzler]

Puzz, when I saw you talking about 'eggs', It thought 'what eggs?'

But it's in the OLB that we read about Minerva/Nehalennia carrying eggs, instead of apples as we can everywhere else (and we read also about the dog at her side):

FROM MINNO’S WRITINGS

When they saw that their shot had missed they began to calumniate her, and to say that she had bewitched the people; but our people and the good Krekalanders understood at once that it was calumny. She was once asked, If you are not a witch, what is the use of the eggs that you always carry with you? Min-erva answered, These eggs are the symbols of Frya’s counsels, in which our future and that of the whole human race lies concealed. Time will hatch them, and we must watch that no harm happens to them. The priests said, Well answered; but what is the use of the dog on your right hand? Hellenia replied, Does not the shepherd have a sheep-dog to keep his flock together? What the dog is to the shepherd I am in Frya’s service. I must watch over Frya’s flocks. We understand that very well, said the priests; but tell us what means the owl that always sits upon your head, is that light-shunning animal a sign of your clear vision? No, answered Hellenia; he reminds me that there are people on earth who, like him, have their homes in churches and holes, who go about in the twilight, not, like him, to deliver us from mice and other plagues, but to invent tricks to steal away the knowledge of other people, in order to take advantage of them, to make slaves of them, and to suck their blood like leeches.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

So again, another unique explanation for her attributes.

I think it would be wise to post a bit more about this Nehalennia:

Nehalennia is known from more than 160 votive altars, which were almost all discovered in the Dutch province of Zeeland. (Two altars were discovered in Cologne, the capital of Germania Inferior.) All of them can be dated to the second and early third centuries CE. Most pieces show a young female figure, sitting on a throne in an apse between two columns, holding a basket of apples on her lap. Nearly always, there is a wolf dog at her side. In some cases, the fruit basket is replaced by something that looks like loaves of bread; in other cases, we can see the woman standing next to a ship or a prow.

-

The interpretation of the reliefs is extremely difficult, but one thing is almost certain. Since the woman is depicted in an apse, a place that was normally reserved to the gods, we may assume that she is the goddess (and not a priestess or a mermaid). However, it is not possible to establish whether she protects or tramples the ship near her foot, and we are therefore left with the question whether she caused the tempest or its silencing. (The fact that the sculptors depicted ships not wrecks suggests the latter, but we can not force this argument.) The meaning of the fruits is a mystery too: are we to think of the 'apple country' Avalon that is known from Celtic sources as some sort of heaven, or is it a reference to the transience of life? And what to think of the dog? Is it a protective animal, or is it one of the threatening 'dogs of the sea' mentioned in the description of the North Sea by the Roman author Albinovanus Pedo? Again, we do and can not know.

http://www.livius.org/ne-nn/nehalennia/nehalennia.html

====

Nehalennia is a fertility goddess and the patroness of hearth and home and of seafarers. This altar shows the goddess standing with her left foot on the bow of a ship. She is holding a basket of fruit. There is a dog at her right side. The inscription reads: 'To the goddess Nehalennia Vegisonius Martinus, citizen from the land of the Sequani and seaman, has redeemed his vow, willingly and with reason.' The Sequani lived in the area around the French town of Besançon. This Gallic seaman apparently traded with these regions.

http://www.geheugenvannederland.nl/?/en/items/RMO01:006855

==

So who was Nehalennia? The sculptures show a lady, sometimes standing, often sitting. She wears a long dress, with some knd of stole, or shawl, over her shoulders. Behind her head is a curved space (an apse) often filled with a scallop shell. In one hand she holds a basket or bowl of fruit, often identified as apples, sometimes pears, whilst in the other she holds a steering oar (used before the sternpost rudder immegrated into Europe from China). There will often be a friendly looking dog sitting by her side and she may also have one of her feet resting on the prow of a ship. Interestingly, none of the classical writers ever mention a local goddess, or even a spirit, named Nehalennia.

The dedications, though, are very clear. They were made by merchants crossing from Britain to Germany (which, in those days, included Holland) and back, thanking Nehalennia for getting them home safely. One such merchant traded in pottery made in Kent and he made several dedications, so he must have been a regular traveller.

==

Nehalennia is almost always depicted with marine symbols and a large, benign-looking dog at her feet.[5][6] The votive stones found depict her sitting down with a basket of apples, the dog at her side, and sometimes with a scepter in her hands. In some depictions she rests her foot on a ship, or holds a ship's oar. Several of the offerings have inscriptions thanking her for safe passage across the North Sea.[1] Hilda Ellis Davidson describes the votive objects:

Nehalennia, a Germanic goddess worshipped at the point where travellers crossed the North Sea from the Netherlands, is shown on many carved stones holding loaves and apples like a Mother Goddess, sometimes with a prow of a ship beside her, but also frequently with an attendant dog which sits looking up at her (Plate 5). He was on thirteen of the twenty-one altars recorded by Ada Hondius-Crone (1955: 103), who describes him as a kind of greyhound.[7]

Davidson further links the motif of the ship associated with Nehalennia with the Germanic Vanir pair of Freyr and Freyja, as well as the Germanic goddess Nerthus,[8] and draws a connection between the loaves of bread that appear on some depictions Nehalennia with oblong, shin-bone shaped loaves of bread baked in the shape of a boar at the time of Yule in Sweden.[9] Davidson further states that customs in Värmland, Sweden "within living memory" describe grain from the last sheaf being used to bake a loaf into the shape of a little girl, as well as examples of elaborate loaves being used for religious festivals, for fertility of fields in Anglo-Saxon England, and examples from Ireland.[9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehalennia

==

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nehalennia-of-the-Ways/44159316170?v=info#!/photo.php?pid=1924973&id=44159316170&ref=album'>http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nehalennia-of-the-Ways/44159316170?v=info#!/photo.php?pid=1924973&id=44159316170&ref=album

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Nehalennia-of-the-Ways/44159316170?v=info#!

==

Well, Freyr/Freyja are mentioned, so here they are:

In Norse mythology, Freyja (Old Norse the "Lady") is a goddess associated with love, beauty, fertility, gold, seiðr, war, and death. Freyja is the owner of the necklace Brísingamen, rides a chariot driven by two cats, owns the boar Hildisvíni, possesses a cloak of falcon feathers, and, by her husband Óðr, is the mother of two daughters; Hnoss and Gersemi. Along with her brother Freyr (Old Norse the "Lord"), her father Njörðr, and her mother (unnamed in sources), she is a member of the Vanir. Stemming from Old Norse Freyja, modern forms of the name include Freya, Freja, Freyia, Frøya, and Freia.

Freyja rules over her heavenly afterlife field Fólkvangr and there receives half of those that die in battle, whereas the other half go to the god Odin's hall, Valhalla. Within Fólkvangr is her hall, Sessrúmnir. Freyja assists other deities by allowing them to use her feathered cloak, is invoked in matters of fertility and love, and is frequently sought after by powerful jötnar who wish to make her their wife. Freyja's husband, the god Óðr, is frequently absent. She cries tears of red gold for him, and searches for him under assumed names. Freyja has numerous names, including Gefn, Hörn, Mardöll, Sýr, Valfreyja, and Vanadís.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freyja

==

Freyr

in Norse mythology, the ruler of peace and fertility, rain, and sunshine and the son of the sea god Njörd. Although originally one of the Vanir tribe, he was included with the Aesir. Gerd, daughter of the giant Gymir, was his wife. Worshiped especially in Sweden, he was also well-known in Norway and Iceland. His sister and female counterpart, Freyja, was goddess of love, fertility, battle, and death. The boar was sacred to both. Freyr and Freyja figure in many lays and stories of medieval Iceland.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/219975/Freyr

==

Freyr (sometimes anglicized Frey, from *frawjaz "lord" [1] ) is one of the most important gods of Norse paganism. Freyr was highly associated with farming, weather and, as a phallic fertility god, Freyr "bestows peace and pleasure on mortals". Freyr, sometimes referred to as Yngvi-Freyr, was especially associated with Sweden and seen as an ancestor of the Swedish royal house.

In the Icelandic books the Poetic Edda and the Prose Edda, Freyr is presented as one of the Vanir, the son of the sea god Njörðr, brother of the goddess Freyja. The gods gave him Álfheimr, the realm of the Elves, as a teething present. He rides the shining dwarf-made boar Gullinbursti and possesses the ship Skíðblaðnir which always has a favorable breeze and can be folded together and carried in a pouch when it is not being used. He has the servants Skírnir, Byggvir, and Beyla.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Freyr

So, to explain the possible relationships between all these gods, we need to change dogs into cats, apples into eggs, add a boar, make the headgear disappear, and from Freyr (because of the boat) to Nehalennia we also need to give Freyr a sex change.

But it's my impression you open every drawer with something about goddesses; it's starting to make my head spin (and no, not because of my subtitle, lol).

Well, Puzz, you have Alewyn's book. What is his explanation for Nyhellenia/Nehalennia ??

I am getting the impression you are not allowed or willing to post anything you read in his book...

--

EDIT:

In case you are thinking of copyright: say what you read in your own words. A summary will do.

.

No, I have only read Chapter one....

I'll see what he says about Nyhellenia.

How can you find out who Athena is without going over the history of how she got into Greece and who she was? The tree abe, not a branch.

If Athena is a mother goddess figure originallly, Nyhellenia could be too, as she is said to be.

She famously wields the thunderbolt and the Aegis, which she and Zeus share exclusively.

Athena does have weather God traits which you didn't see....you bolded the part before.

So this part sounds like Menrva doesn't align with Athena - (Menrva) She is often depicted in more essentially Etruscan style as a lightning thrower; Martianus mentions her as one of nine Etruscan lightning gods. Unlike Athena, Menrva seems to have been associated with weather phenomena

Has everyone missed that Athena is carrying a lightening bolt? Her spear. She is a lightening thrower, just like Menrva really.

It's easy to not see what is there with Goddesses and as they change and adapt to become another cultures Goddess they take on different attributes. Like I said Athena's helmet really represents a swan. Swans, lightening - can you see that in Athena? No, but it's there, just as Nyhellenia appears to have nothing in common with Athena or Minerva, it is just being neglected to be noticed imo.

Back later, I'll go read what Alewyn says.

[Abramelin]

No, I have only read Chapter one....

I'll see what he says about Nyhellenia.

How can you find out who Athena is without going over the history of how she got into Greece and who she was? The tree abe, not a branch.

If Athena is a mother goddess figure originallly, Nyhellenia could be too, as she is said to be.

She famously wields the thunderbolt and the Aegis, which she and Zeus share exclusively.

Athena does have weather God traits which you didn't see....you bolded the part before.

So this part sounds like Menrva doesn't align with Athena - (Menrva) She is often depicted in more essentially Etruscan style as a lightning thrower; Martianus mentions her as one of nine Etruscan lightning gods. Unlike Athena, Menrva seems to have been associated with weather phenomena

Has everyone missed that Athena is carrying a lightening bolt? Her spear. She is a lightening thrower, just like Menrva really.

It's easy to not see what is there with Goddesses and as they change and adapt to become another cultures Goddess they take on different attributes. Like I said Athena's helmet really represents a swan. Swans, lightening - can you see that in Athena? No, but it's there, just as Nyhellenia appears to have nothing in common with Athena or Minerva, it is just being neglected to be noticed imo.

Back later, I'll go read what Alewyn says.

Nyhellennia/Nehalennia is not a weather goddess. She could be a mother goddess,yes,like there are a zillion all over the planet.

Athena doens't wear a swan on her head:

Athena doesn´t carry a lightning bolt, she carries a spear. AND she has a shield at her feet. She is more like a Mars than a Mother Goddess.

Arhena doesn´t have anything to do with sailing, or dogs, or apples, or eggs.

If you go on like this, next you will try to prove Athena is no one else but Anansi.

[The Puzzler]

I don't think he says much at all except quotes from the OLB...Chapter 3 pg 106

Hang on, sorry Alewyn, here we go: Chapter 4

Next page - exiled Frisian Burghmaid in the rock strewn hills of Attica laid the unplanned foundations of a new civilisation.

In Greece she became known as Athena and in Italy by her own name Minerva

The name Hellenia (bringer of light or clarity) Helen, or Helena became as Greek as Greek can be basically he says.

Assumes Minerva was over 40 when they left as she was contender for the Folk Mother position. Estimates Athena died 1600BC which caused some upheavals, and may be why Minno left Crete.

Apex of Minoan Civilisation and Alewyn says that is seems credible as it matches the New Palace Period in Crete.

It appears that he may not have known of Nyhellenia (the Zeeland Goddess) so has done no comparison to her.

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Here's the thing Abe, Athena has come into Greece somehow, apparently foreign, from Libya to Crete to Greece - this allows for huge changes in here, her childhood may even be associated with her being Pallas who developed into Athena, she is called Pallas Athena even. She has developed into Athena over a long period of time from a figure who was probably not very much like her to start with, if she was actually a real person who developed Goddesslike status it would probably be more logical and she would have come into Greece with a background such as the OLB has given her possibly.

The newer Friesian Nahellenia imo would be taken from some form of Minerva, of sailors, do we know Athena was never associated with sailors? In fact, if Athena and Minerva are weather Gods they would affect the sailing of sailors to a huge extent. Electrical storms at sea are never good for sailors, please give us a safe journey even though you are throwing lightening at us. Every Goddess and God is basically a creator and destroyer, what they give they can take.

Is the golden apple that gets rolled into the wedding party really an apple or a golden egg (the original story) a golden egg and golden apple are quite interchangable, the apple became more common later because of it's use in the Bible for temptation. So the apples you see may actually have been eggs with a Christian spin. Eggs are the symbols of fertility, you know Spring, Easter bunny, eggs - so if the Netherland Nyhellenia was related to fertility it would have more than likely been eggs that changed to apples as Paganism was swept away. Even if it's an apple, Hera has apples, special golden ones thoroughly protected by a dragon in case you think of stealing them, so precious they are.

[The Puzzler]

Nyhellennia/Nehalennia is not a weather goddess. She could be a mother goddess,yes,like there are a zillion all over the planet.

Athena doens't wear a swan on her head:

Athena doesn´t carry a lightning bolt, she carries a spear. AND she has a shield at her feet. She is more like a Mars than a Mother Goddess.

Arhena doesn´t have anything to do with sailing, or dogs, or apples, or eggs.

If you go on like this, next you will try to prove Athena is no one else but Anansi.

Yeah, spear...

Didn't you read about how Potnia went from a mother goddess to a warrior??

Potnia was the most important goddess in Greece in the Late Bronze Age, which is called Mycenaean (1600 - 1100 BCE). She is mentioned on the tablets with Linear scripts B from Knossos and Pylos as PO-TI-NI-JA with many epithets. Some of these adjectives are of local provenience, where some of them characterize the sphere of her influence.

In Mycenaean monuments, Potnia appears with many attributes: the snakes, the double axes, the lions, the doves, the griffin, as well as other kinds of animals and sacred features. Sometimes standing alone they have to indicate the presence of the goddess.

Potnia is the protector of nature, vegetation, fertility and in this case she is closely related to the Minoan Mother of the Mountains. During Late Helladic III period (after 1400 BCE) Potnia is depicted more war-like. Armed with weapons, wearing a helmet, she is accompanied by the griffin.

J.Chadwick believes that Potnia was connected with the cult of the Earth Mother, dominated from Early Helladic time over all Aegean religion. He supposes this cult continued with a variety of names into the classical period. M.P. Nilson presumed the role of Potnia in Greek classical religion was taken over by Athena, Rhea and Hera.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/p/potnia.html

You know as well as I do that Athena is referred to as Athena Potnia in Crete in Linear B.

You are looking at Athena as an end product, instead of seeing how they wrapped her in that package and what other forms of her developed and from where she developed from.

Neith, how is she Athena, if she is? There are many changes going on and I am probably wasting my time if you think we can find an exact match from Athena to Nyhellenia as is with apples and dog and owl.

[The Puzzler]

I have a theory with the Etruscan writing - I think it looks like English when you read it in a mirror so it's actually back to front but looks more like English letters.

The letters look backward like Greek, but if you read them in a mirror they are turned around and many of them look like regular English letters.

I was thinking about this along the lines of the abundance of mirrors in Etrucsan culture and the lack of any literature, thousands of religous text only, and also the idea that many of the Freya people has coded their writings or changed them and no body could read them anymore once the people who could read them were gone.

Like Etruscan writing.

If we are trying to translate Etruscan through Greek you will get no where, if you look at it as related to the letters in the OLB or Old English it might start to become comprehendible.

You can only read and comprehend it in mirror image possibly. All very da Vinci code but he was Italian and what was with all his mirror imaging fixation...?

I know the names on the 6 die faces and have been studying them for a while now and am convinced they do say one, two, three, four, five and six because the w sound in one is actually written in two, w so one could be sounded wun and two would be wu, ci sounds like 5 in spanish and max sounds to me to be a definite form of six. To me it seems to have some sort of English base in it and when you mirror image it it appears to look English too.

[The Puzzler]

Sorry Abe, this one is not really on topic but for Slim really...

Velikovsky says in his Revised History that the Hittites are the Chaldeans.

I actually think that is funny. For 1000 reasons I can't pinpoint....

[Abramelin]

I have a theory with the Etruscan writing - I think it looks like English when you read it in a mirror so it's actually back to front but looks more like English letters.

The letters look backward like Greek, but if you read them in a mirror they are turned around and many of them look like regular English letters.

I was thinking about this along the lines of the abundance of mirrors in Etrucsan culture and the lack of any literature, thousands of religous text only, and also the idea that many of the Freya people has coded their writings or changed them and no body could read them anymore once the people who could read them were gone.

Like Etruscan writing.

If we are trying to translate Etruscan through Greek you will get no where, if you look at it as related to the letters in the OLB or Old English it might start to become comprehendible.

You can only read and comprehend it in mirror image possibly. All very da Vinci code but he was Italian and what was with all his mirror imaging fixation...?

I know the names on the 6 die faces and have been studying them for a while now and am convinced they do say one, two, three, four, five and six because the w sound in one is actually written in two, w so one could be sounded wun and two would be wu, ci sounds like 5 in spanish and max sounds to me to be a definite form of six. To me it seems to have some sort of English base in it and when you mirror image it it appears to look English too.

Lol, is that really your theory, about the right-to-left way of writing of the Etruscans??

Writing was from right to left except in archaic inscriptions, which might use boustrophedon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language

So I think the scientists trying to translate Etruscan already took that into account.

And I don't think the Etruscans used mirrors to write or read; I have never seen Arabs or Jews with mirrors in their hands to be able to read their holy books..

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Yes, I read about Athena Potnia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potnia_Theron , but I still don't see any relationship with the Nehelannia goddess as found here in The Netherlands.

The one and only animal associated with Nehalennia is the dog, never a swan, never an owl.

Never ever does she wear a helmet, or warlike attributes.

And they have found more than a hundred votive altars of Nehalennia here.

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Btw, it's strange Alewyn never mentions the Nehalennia as is known here, and only talks about the Nyhellenia from the OLB.

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Edited August 3, 2010 by Abramelin