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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


Riaan

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Lol, is that really your theory, about the right-to-left way of writing of the Etruscans??

Writing was from right to left except in archaic inscriptions, which might use boustrophedon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language

So I think the scientists trying to translate Etruscan already took that into account.

And I don't think the Etruscans used mirrors to write or read; I have never seen Arabs or Jews with mirrors in their hands to be able to read their holy books..

--

Yes, I read about Athena Potnia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potnia_Theron , but I still don't see any relationship with the Nehelannia goddess as found here in The Netherlands.

The one and only animal associated with Nehalennia is the dog, never a swan, never an owl.

Never ever does she wear a helmet, or warlike attributes.

And they have found more than a hundred votive altars of Nehalennia here.

--

Btw, it's strange Alewyn never mentions the Nehalennia as is known here, and only talks about the Nyhellenia from the OLB.

.

Not the boustrophedon style of writing, the actual letter.

OK but who said the Nyhellenia-Minerva was the Nehallenia you speak of anyway...? That Nehallenia of the Netherlands from c. 200BC doesn't have to be the original. She herself is probably a form of an older mother Goddess..Nehallenia comes 1200 years after Nyhellenia-Minerva according to the OLB then so my guess is that Nehallenia is not actually Nyhellenia-Minerva herself.

It's a tricky one for sure and near impossible to really sort out. I'm about over the Athena thing for now.

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The one in the OLB has an owl and eggs and the dog, yes, I see apples and the dog in your images of Nahelenia so she is really not like the one in the OLB book is she, apart from the dog....is she even the Nyhellenia-Minerva spoken of in the OLB, doesn't seem likely really...where is her owl and her eggs?

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The one in the OLB has an owl and eggs and the dog, yes, I see apples and the dog in your images of Nahelenia so she is really not like the one in the OLB book is she, apart from the dog....is she even the Nyhellenia-Minerva spoken of in the OLB, doesn't seem likely really...where is her owl and her eggs?

It's Ottema himself who made a note in the sideline about Nyhellenia being Nehalennia.

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_the002thet01_01/_the002thet01_01_0016.php

And let's be honest: is it just a coincidence that the only finds of Nehalennia votive altars were done where once was the western coast of the Frisian country?? (Walcheren and Domburg, in the Dutch Zeeland pronvince)

Even today she is known there as "Neeltje Jans".

Nehalennia was sort of perfect to be used in the OLB, because not much was known about her, only the way she looked.

All the OLB writers did was change the spelling a bit here and there to make it look a bit different, but in general still sounding the same: Nehalennia >> Nyhellenia

And then we suddenly have a Greek sounding "Hellenia" in the name: that's just perfect ! Then add an owl, keep the dog, change the apples into eggs, forget about the boat, give her a helmet, and so on, and we have Athena/Minerva/Menvra .

But like I already explained in the Doggerland thread, an ancient (Frisian) name for the North Sea was "Hal", "Halja", "Hel", "Harla", and so on. I also posted about ancient pilgrim routes to the North Sea through Germany and Holland, the socalled (and literal) "Roads to Hell", or "Highways to Hell".

--

I remember I posted quite a lot about Nehalennia, but here's something that may give you an idea without the need to search through a 34 page thread:

http://thehellweg.blogspot.com/search/label/Nehalennia

(And something else: we should also not forget that the way her name was spelled on those marble votive altars is because that is how Roman ears heard it.

There are those who think it wasn't even a (pre-)Celtic/Germanic name, but a Finno-Ugric or Uralic name.)

.

Edited by Abramelin
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So Ottema got it wrong.

Here's the thing, the history of the Frisians in the time of Nyhellenia-Minerva and the early parts of it are before the Frisians were even in the Netherlands:

The Frisian origins are obscure. Archeologically, Frisians share a local development with other people like the Belgae in northwest continental regions, dating to the Elp culture (1800-800 BC). The Elp culture shows local continuity, starting with the emergence of the neolithic Corded Ware culture (2900 BC onwards until 2450) and running through Bell-Beaker cultures (2700–2100), Bronze Age Barbed Wire Beakers (2100-1800 BC). The Elp Culture itself began with a Hügelgräber phase, showing a close relationship to other Northern European Hügelgräber groups (sharing low-quality pottery called "Kümmerkeramik"). This phase transitioned smoothly and locally to Urnfields (1200-800 BC). Apparently, the local tradition was only broken around 800 BC, by the Iron Age Hallstatt culture and later by La Tene, which originated south and south east of Central Europe. It was thought that this change was caused by immigration, but it is now attributed to a local development stimulated by external influences.[3] The Hallstatt elites may have had little social influence in Frisia, because there is no evidence of royal burials there.

Social stability and international contacts became disturbed by power shifts towards the southern Hallstatt regions in the C-period. This caused a decay in the superstratum elite in the D-period that thus never achieved the same privileged and dominant position like in SW Germany and Eastern France. The same process of quick decay was observed at the subsequent intruding La Tene elite. Archeologically, this Iron Age period continued without breaks towards Roman times, showing that continental Germanic cultures participated in an otherwise Celtic European culture. Thus it is not clear whether most Northern European Iron Age findings are from Celtic or Germanic tribes.

About 750 BC, the coastal flood plains were populated for the first time, when adjacent higher grounds (Drenthe) became more populated and their soil was exhausted.[4] The Frisian ancestors may have immigrated in the Iron Age from Germanic areas to the north or even Scandinavia, but archeological evidence is ambiguous. Genetic evidence points to a close relationship between all Germanic groups, including Frisians, although a possible Scandinavian link is hard to prove with the occurrence of genetic drift, local developments and eastern additions confined to Scandinavian areas.[5]

The Frisians emerge as a Germanic tribe named by Roman writers. Nowadays the region shows one of the few examples in prehistory of Bronze Age culture to have continuity with recent building practices as demonstrated by Elp culture influences in present day Frisian and Low Saxon territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisians

Pitted Ware and Corded ware culture can be associated with Gotland. The Frisian migrated to the area of Frisia. I say from the area of Gotland and Sweden, possibly Denmark too. As it says above Scandinavia is an option. Around 1800BC they come into their own but are still not in Frisia so would Nyhellenia actually be Nahellenia.

If you are saying all of it is later history given an earlier timeframe (which I'm not totally against yet) we could go on here forever but I say if it's real then it could fit in and Nahellenia would more than likely be a Goddess the Frisians had before 2nd century BC. Nahellenia represents a 2nd century version of her imo. Frisians do have a very long history and could easily have been part of what the book says, if you accept they are actually descended from Corded Ware and Pitted Ware cultures and their Goddesses would have been Scandinavian or German like Freya is.

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Puzz, I will read your latest post later, but first I want to get this from my chest:

Because I once assumed that the name "Nehalennia" became a name for some sea goddess, but was originally the name of some now 'lost country' she represented (you guess which country that is, lol), I asked a Finnish woman on my own site, what is "Land near ice and frost" in your language?

She told me it was "maa lähellä halla ja jäätä". ['ja' is pronounced like English 'ya' or 'ia']

Sounds similar to the various spellings of Nehalennia, or "Neeltje Jans" as the name is preserved in my language. And - like I said - it were Romans in ancient Friesland who wrote it down and inscribed it on stone the way it sounded in their ears.

http://www.artforthemasses.us/castacon/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2291&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=15

"One point I have to make is that Finno-Ugric and Indo-European are classifications for two totally seperate language families. Finnish might be spoken in Europe, but it is just as seperate from the Indo-European languages as Basque is. We linguists get a little niggly about the different classifications! It would be possible to track Nehalennia's origins through language use, though, and Ragnar is right in thinking that Nehalennia sounds much more Finno-Ugric than Indo-European, I've never seen a word outside of Finnish that resembles the same pattern! "

http://www.paganlibrary.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5193&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

.

Edited by Abramelin
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So Ottema got it wrong.

Here's the thing, the history of the Frisians in the time of Nyhellenia-Minerva and the early parts of it are before the Frisians were even in the Netherlands:

The Frisian origins are obscure. Archeologically, Frisians share a local development with other people like the Belgae in northwest continental regions, dating to the Elp culture (1800-800 BC). The Elp culture shows local continuity, starting with the emergence of the neolithic Corded Ware culture (2900 BC onwards until 2450) and running through Bell-Beaker cultures (27002100), Bronze Age Barbed Wire Beakers (2100-1800 BC). The Elp Culture itself began with a Hügelgräber phase, showing a close relationship to other Northern European Hügelgräber groups (sharing low-quality pottery called "Kümmerkeramik"). This phase transitioned smoothly and locally to Urnfields (1200-800 BC). Apparently, the local tradition was only broken around 800 BC, by the Iron Age Hallstatt culture and later by La Tene, which originated south and south east of Central Europe. It was thought that this change was caused by immigration, but it is now attributed to a local development stimulated by external influences.[3] The Hallstatt elites may have had little social influence in Frisia, because there is no evidence of royal burials there.

Social stability and international contacts became disturbed by power shifts towards the southern Hallstatt regions in the C-period. This caused a decay in the superstratum elite in the D-period that thus never achieved the same privileged and dominant position like in SW Germany and Eastern France. The same process of quick decay was observed at the subsequent intruding La Tene elite. Archeologically, this Iron Age period continued without breaks towards Roman times, showing that continental Germanic cultures participated in an otherwise Celtic European culture. Thus it is not clear whether most Northern European Iron Age findings are from Celtic or Germanic tribes.

About 750 BC, the coastal flood plains were populated for the first time, when adjacent higher grounds (Drenthe) became more populated and their soil was exhausted.[4] The Frisian ancestors may have immigrated in the Iron Age from Germanic areas to the north or even Scandinavia, but archeological evidence is ambiguous. Genetic evidence points to a close relationship between all Germanic groups, including Frisians, although a possible Scandinavian link is hard to prove with the occurrence of genetic drift, local developments and eastern additions confined to Scandinavian areas.[5]

The Frisians emerge as a Germanic tribe named by Roman writers. Nowadays the region shows one of the few examples in prehistory of Bronze Age culture to have continuity with recent building practices as demonstrated by Elp culture influences in present day Frisian and Low Saxon territory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisians

Pitted Ware and Corded ware culture can be associated with Gotland. The Frisian migrated to the area of Frisia. I say from the area of Gotland and Sweden, possibly Denmark too. As it says above Scandinavia is an option. Around 1800BC they come into their own but are still not in Frisia so would Nyhellenia actually be Nahellenia.

If you are saying all of it is later history given an earlier timeframe (which I'm not totally against yet) we could go on here forever but I say if it's real then it could fit in and Nahellenia would more than likely be a Goddess the Frisians had before 2nd century BC. Nahellenia represents a 2nd century version of her imo. Frisians do have a very long history and could easily have been part of what the book says, if you accept they are actually descended from Corded Ware and Pitted Ware cultures and their Goddesses would have been Scandinavian or German like Freya is.

It's almost if I am re-reading the Doggerland thread, lol !

I even suggested there - based on some genetic info and ancient history of the Frisians and where they may have come from/returned from, like southern Norway and southern Sweden => 'near ice and frost' or ancient Doggerland after the end of the ice age, many millenia ago - that they maybe were the original Germanics. But that was very probably just me twisting available info to make them fit into my pet-topic...

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Just an extra to what I already said about a possible Fino-Ugric origin of the name "Nehalennia" ( two posts before this one:

That Finnish woman has left, so I can't ask her again.

But i think I made it a bit too difficult for myself: I could have simply asked her, "wat is 'land near ice' in your language?"

land near ice: maa lähellä jään ( >> 'j' is pronounced like 'y' in English 'ya' or 'i' in English 'ia' )

http://translate.google.nl/#en|fi|land%20near%20ice

Now, taking into account that an area from England to Poland/Northern Russia was once occupied by the Maglemosian culture, a culture of which is said that it's members spoke a proto Finno_Ugric tongue, then I think we should look into that direction.

--

The ancient ancestors of the Frisians may have been Doggerlanders who fled to southern Norway and Sweden, and to Denmark.

From the original name for that land that sunk, they only saved a part: "Hella" or "Halja" (like San Franciso >> Frisco), and used it as a name for the North Sea, the sea that flooded their original homeland, their 'land near ice', maalähelläjään (Doggerland, as I have said many times in the thread with that name, was nothing short of paradise 2000 years after the end of the ice age - think Gulf Stream and being low land - as compared with the surrounding countries that were still much covered in ice and barren tundra.

Very much later the name of their ancient homeland still survived as the name for a sea goddess, "Nehalennia". And also for a very long time - well, part of the name - as the name for the sea that now covered their ancient homeland, the North Sea, "Hell"/"Helja/Halja".

Nice, eh?

Cheers.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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And then we have those apples.

We have the legend of "Avalon", the Isle of Apples, sorry, NOT the Isle of Eggs..

Those Welsh have always searched in the wrong direction; they thought it was the land of which now only the highest peaks are above sealevel: the Scilly Islands.

We need a diver with excellent eyesight, and have him/her search the Dogger Bank.

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Just an extra to what I already said about a possible Fino-Ugric origin of the name "Nehalennia" ( two posts before this one:

That Finnish woman has left, so I can't ask her again.

But i think I made it a bit too difficult for myself: I could have simply asked her, "wat is 'land near ice' in your language?"

land near ice: maa lähellä jään ( >> 'j' is pronounced like 'y' in English 'ya' or 'i' in English 'ia' )

http://translate.google.nl/#en|fi|land%20near%20ice

Now, taking into account that an area from England to Poland/Northern Russia was once occupied by the Maglemosian culture, a culture of which is said that it's members spoke a proto Finno_Ugric tongue, then I think we should look into that direction.

--

The ancient ancestors of the Frisians may have been Doggerlanders who fled to southern Norway and Sweden, and to Denmark.

From the original name for that land that sunk, they only saved a part: "Hella" or "Halja" (like San Franciso >> Frisco), and used it as a name for the North Sea, the sea that flooded their original homeland, their 'land near ice', maalähelläjään (Doggerland, as I have said many times in the thread with that name, was nothing short of paradise 2000 years after the end of the ice age - think Gulf Stream and being low land - as compared with the surrounding countries that were still much covered in ice and barren tundra.

Very much later the name of their ancient homeland still survived as the name for a sea goddess, "Nehalennia". And also for a very long time - well, part of the name - as the name for the sea that now covered their ancient homeland, the North Sea, "Hell"/"Helja/Halja".

Nice, eh?

Cheers.

.

It's not about finding what we want for a pet project, you should stop being so cynical mate. Well, I don't like to say you should do anything but I suggest it.

See, the hel is not out of the ball park and I've been there because of HELgoland. In the area of Hel. Isn't that weird how Hell became the Christian word for place of damnation...when hel(l) freezes over, hell was frozen once. Helgoland also means Holy Land, Aland Islands, did the true Holy Land actually become Hel?

Christiany swept through Northern Europe and the pagan ways were indeed banished to Hell.

I don't doubt at all the Baltic was Hel and that has nothing to do with any pet project I have.

Nehellenia is probably more like wise Goddess of the Hel. SO I agree.

The Gotland flag represents the ram, it has a ram on it, Holy Land of the Ram.

The question I would have is is Gurtnish (Gutnish) a same form as Gutian, pet project maybe but here is a link I think can be followed if we think of a migration out of the North Sea c. 2200BC OLB age and time of the 4.2 kiloyear event we spoke of before into the Steppes.

The Gutians (also Guteans or Guti) were a tribe that overran southern Mesopotamia when the Akkadian empire collapsed in approximately 2183 BC (short chronology).

Sumerian sources portray the Gutians as a barbarous, ravenous people from Gutium or Qutium in the mountains[1], presumably the central Zagros. The Sumerian king list represents them as ruling over Sumer for a time, and paints a picture of chaos within the Gutian administration.[2]

Next to nothing is known about their origins, as no "Gutian" artifacts have surfaced from that time; little information is gleaned from the contemporary sources.[3] Nothing is known of their language either, apart from those Sumerian king names, and that it was distinct from other major languages of the region (such as Akkadian, Hurrian, and Elamite).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

Finno-Urgic seems to be the line of the Finns spoken of in the OLB and haven't overlooked it, just putting it aside for a moment.

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From Gotland there was an historic migration out:

The Gutasaga contains legends of how the island was settled by Þieluar and populated by his descendants. It also tells that a third of the population had to emigrate and settle in southern Europe, a tradition associated with the migration of the Goths, whose name has the same origin as Gutar, the native name of the people of the island.

The oldest history of the Gutar is retold in the Gutasaga. According to legend they descended from a man named Þjelvar who was the first to discover Gotland. Þjelvar had a son named Hafþi who wedded a fair maiden named Hvitastjerna. These two were the first to settle on Gotland. Hafþi and Hvitastjerna later had three children, Guti, Graipr and Gunfjaun. After the death of their parents, the brothers divided Gotland into three parts and each took one, but Guti remained the highest chieftain and gave his name to the land and its people.

It is also related that because of overpopulation one third of the Gutar had to emigrate and settle in southern Europe. Some historians have argued[who?] that this tale might be a reminiscensce of the migration of the Goths.

over a long time, the people descended from these three multiplied so much that the land couldn't support them all. Then they draw lots, and every third person was picked to leave, and they could keep everything they owned and take it with them, except for their land. ... they went up the river Dvina, up through Russia. They went so far that they came to the land of the Greeks. ... they settled there, and live there still, and still have something of our language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutar

Landed in Greece. I reckon the first part of that story sounds a bit Atlantis like...to add to that, but nothing concrete, Gotaland in Sweden, had 10 provinces.

This appears to be a later story but may hold an original one, the Goths can be sometimes linked to the Philistines and in that realm their language actually shows links to Illyrian which then caught my eye, y'know Troy and all, Iliad, probably about Illyrians.

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It's not about finding what we want for a pet project, you should stop being so cynical mate. Well, I don't like to say you should do anything but I suggest it.

See, the hel is not out of the ball park and I've been there because of HELgoland. In the area of Hel. Isn't that weird how Hell became the Christian word for place of damnation...when hel(l) freezes over, hell was frozen once. Helgoland also means Holy Land, Aland Islands, did the true Holy Land actually become Hel?

Christiany swept through Northern Europe and the pagan ways were indeed banished to Hell.

I don't doubt at all the Baltic was Hel and that has nothing to do with any pet project I have.

Nehellenia is probably more like wise Goddess of the Hel. SO I agree.

The Gotland flag represents the ram, it has a ram on it, Holy Land of the Ram.

The question I would have is is Gurtnish (Gutnish) a same form as Gutian, pet project maybe but here is a link I think can be followed if we think of a migration out of the North Sea c. 2200BC OLB age and time of the 4.2 kiloyear event we spoke of before into the Steppes.

The Gutians (also Guteans or Guti) were a tribe that overran southern Mesopotamia when the Akkadian empire collapsed in approximately 2183 BC (short chronology).

Sumerian sources portray the Gutians as a barbarous, ravenous people from Gutium or Qutium in the mountains[1], presumably the central Zagros. The Sumerian king list represents them as ruling over Sumer for a time, and paints a picture of chaos within the Gutian administration.[2]

Next to nothing is known about their origins, as no "Gutian" artifacts have surfaced from that time; little information is gleaned from the contemporary sources.[3] Nothing is known of their language either, apart from those Sumerian king names, and that it was distinct from other major languages of the region (such as Akkadian, Hurrian, and Elamite).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_people

Finno-Urgic seems to be the line of the Finns spoken of in the OLB and haven't overlooked it, just putting it aside for a moment.

Hmm.. I think you stepped out of your bed with the wrong leg first...

I was talking about MY pet-topic, as should be obvious to anyone here.

But what are you talking about now? The Sumerians??

I think the difference between you and me is that I try to explain things with local stuff as much as possible, while you drag in stuff from sources all over the planet.

OK, so the Goths invaded Mesopotamia. Please continue, I will shut up

--

EDIT:

"Isn't that weird how Hell became the Christian word for place of damnation...when hel(l) freezes over, hell was frozen once".

It isn't weird, but I am not prepared to copy a large part of the Doggerland thread here.

And from what I said about the ancient name of the North Sea, and what the name Hell probably originally stood for - a country that got catastrophic destroyed, then yeah, I think I have a clue why it later became the name for place of doom and the underworld.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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How about this? The Tocharian mummies are these people who reached Asia and took the idea of a son of God, a lamb, into Asia, it stopped at Mt Kailash, and the cult grew up there. Heaven was now in the new snowy abode in the sky they had found, a crystal mountain to heaven. Kailash means crystal.

Hell was back where they had come from.

Does Finland give us an answer? Hel-sinki..

Did Hell sink? In the North Sea area of the Atlantic Ocean.

I'm playing on words of course, or am I? Even I don't know anymore.

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Yeah yeah I told you I was self-indulgent some posts back... :rolleyes:

I have not read your Doggerland thread and didn't know about the OLB until this thread so excuse me for missing the boat if you already have been there.

But I am talking about your topic since you mentioned Hel.

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I get off track easy, what was it you were talking about?

Avalon and apples or Nahellenia, Dogger bank?...I can go back but am not sure what your topic was you wanted to discuss I had so much in my head first thing.

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How about this? The Tocharian mummies are these people who reached Asia and took the idea of a son of God, a lamb, into Asia, it stopped at Mt Kailash, and the cult grew up there. Heaven was now in the new snowy abode in the sky they had found, a crystal mountain to heaven. Kailash means crystal.

Hell was back where they had come from.

Does Finland give us an answer? Hel-sinki..

Did Hell sink? In the North Sea area of the Atlantic Ocean.

I'm playing on words of course, or am I? Even I don't know anymore.

Yeah, 'sinking hell', lol.

Alas, Helsinki is only like 4 centuries old.

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Yeah yeah I told you I was self-indulgent some posts back... :rolleyes:

I have not read your Doggerland thread and didn't know about the OLB until this thread so excuse me for missing the boat if you already have been there.

But I am talking about your topic since you mentioned Hel.

Lol, you don't HAVE to talk anout 'Hel', and btw, we were talking about Nyhellenia/Nehalennia.

I get off track easy, what was it you were talking about?

Avalon and apples or Nahellenia, Dogger bank?...I can go back but am not sure what your topic was you wanted to discuss I had so much in my head first thing.

What you mean, you get off track easy? :w00t:

Avalon is the Isle of Apples, right? A 'lost island'? And you don't know why I should mention apples in connection with Nehalennia, a sea goddess who carries apples in a basket, and with Dogger Island, an island that got flooded and is now also 'lost' (well, we know exactly where it is)?

Hmmmm, maybe you better post what you wanted to post first...

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Avalon apparently means apple so it's the apple isle.

This part from Avalon Wiki -

Geoffrey of Monmouth called it in Latin Insula Avallonis in the Historia. In the later Vita Merlini he called it Insula Pomorum the "isle of apples". The name is generally considered to be of Welsh origin, derived from Old Welsh abal "apple" or aball "apple tree" (Middle Welsh aval, avall; Modern Welsh afal, afall), though an Old Cornish or Old Breton origin is also possible.[1][2][3][4] It is also possible that the tradition of an "apple" island among the British was influenced by Irish legends concerning the otherworld island home of Manannán mac Lir and Lugh, Emain Ablach (also the Old Irish poetic name for the Isle of Man,[1] where Ablach means "Having Apple Trees"[5] - derived from Old Irish aball "apple" - and is similar to the Middle Welsh name Afallach, which was used to replace the name Avalon in medieval Welsh translations of French and Latin Arthurian tales). All are etymologically related to the Gaulish root *aballo- (as found in the place name Aballo/Aballone, now Avallon in Burgundy) and are derived from a Common Celtic *abal- "apple", which is related at the Proto-Indo-European level to English apple, Russian jabloko, Latvian abele, et al

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands

The name Islas Canarias is likely derived from the Latin term Insula Canaria, meaning "Island of the Dogs", a name applied originally only to Gran Canaria. It is speculated that the so called dogs were actually a species of Monk Seals ("sea dog" in Latin), critically endangered and no longer present in the Canary Islands.[18] The dense population of seals may have been the characteristic that most struck the few ancient Romans who established contact with these islands by sea. The connection to dogs is retained in their depiction on the islands' coat-of-arms (shown above).

The original inhabitants of the island, guanches, used to worship dogs, mummified them and treat dogs generally as holy animals. In ancient times the island was well known for its people who worshipped dogs there, and when the Romans first visited the island they gave it the name: 'canaari', which means in Latin: "the ones who worship dogs", or "the ones with dogs". The ancient Greeks also knew about a people, living far to the west, who are the "dog-headed ones", who worship dogs on an island. Some theorize that the Canary Islands dog-worship and the ancient Egyptian cult of the dog-headed god, Anubis are closely connected, but there is no explanation as to which one was first, and how is it possible for those two distant areas to be in contact with each other.

I doubt that they meant seals if the Guanches mummified and worshipped dogs and in fact it does sound a bit Anubis like but more to the point the Canary Islands are also referred to as the Fortunate Isles, in ancient writers stories and by Isadore of Seville.

This is from Avalon:

According to Geoffrey in the Historia and much subsequent literature which he inspired, Avalon is the place where King Arthur is taken after fighting Mordred at the Battle of Camlann to recover from his wounds. Welsh, Cornish and Breton tradition claimed that Arthur had never really died, but would inexorably return to lead his people against their enemies. The Historia also states that Avalon is where his sword Caliburn (Excalibur) was forged. Geoffrey dealt with Avalon in more detail in Vita Merlini, in which he describes for the first time in Arthurian legend the enchantress Morgan le Fay as the chief of nine sisters who live on Avalon. Geoffrey's description of the island indicates a sea voyage was needed to get there. His description of Avalon here, which is heavily indebted to the early medieval Spanish scholar Isidore of Seville (being mostly derived from the section on famous islands in Isidore's famous work Etymologiae, XIV.6.8 "Fortunatae Insulae"), shows the magical nature of the island:

The island of apples which men call “The Fortunate Isle” (Insula Pomorum que Fortunata uocatur) gets its name from the fact that it produces all things of itself; the fields there have no need of the ploughs of the farmers and all cultivation is lacking except what nature provides. Of its own accord it produces grain and grapes, and apple trees grow in its woods from the close-clipped grass. The ground of its own accord produces everything instead of merely grass, and people live there a hundred years or more. There nine sisters rule by a pleasing set of laws those who come to them from our country.[8]

By comparison, Isidore's description of the Fortunate Isles reads:

"The name of the Isles of the Fortunate signifies that they bear all good things, as if happy and blessed in the abundance of their fruits. Serviceable by nature, they bring forth fruits of valuable forests (Sua enim aptae natura pretiosarum poma silvarum parturiunt); their hilltops are clothed with vines growing by chance; in place of grasses, there is commonly vegetable and grain. Pagan error and the songs of the secular poets have held that these islands to be Paradise because of the fecundity of the soil. Situated in the Ocean to the left of Mauretania, very near the west, they are separated by the sea flowing between them."[9]

In medieval geographies, Isidore's Fortunate Islands were identified with the Canaries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avalon

So, it appears then that Nyhellenia could be associated with sailing to the Canary Islands, an island of dogs and the apple...

The isle where Hera's apples are previously.

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Gotta go to bed, where did the day go?

Anyway, about Hel...Goddess of the Dead and Underworld.

In Norse mythology, Hel is a being that presides over a realm of the same name, where she receives a portion of the dead. Hel is attested in the Poetic Edda, compiled in the 13th century from earlier traditional sources, and the Prose Edda, written in the 13th century by Snorri Sturluson. In addition, mentioned in poems recorded in Heimskringla and Egils saga that date from the 9th and 10th century respectively. An episode in the Latin work Gesta Danorum, written in the 12th century by Saxo Grammaticus, is generally considered to refer to Hel, and Hel may appear on various Migration Period bracteates.

In the Poetic Edda, Prose Edda, and Heimskringla, Hel is referred to as a daughter of Loki, and to "go to Hel" is to die. In the Prose Edda book Gylfaginning, Hel is described as having been appointed by the god Odin as ruler of a realm of the same name, located in Niflheim. In the same source, her appearance is described as half-black and half-flesh colored, and as further having a gloomy, down-cast appearance. The Prose Edda details that Hel rules over vast mansions, her servants in her underworld realm, and as playing a key role in the attempted resurrection of the god Baldr.

What caught my eye though was a mention of Hel being located in Niflheim and thought that sounded rather like Nephilim, giants on the Earth in those days, what? Giant Titan Niflheim who lived in Hel. Crazy ****, my brain hurts. Night. :wacko:

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OK, you were busy, but I was busy too..... reading 34 pages to be able to give you some sort of summary of the Doggerland thread.

Uhmm... first things first: Niflheim meant noting but place of fog, mist, "nifl".

That's where you go wrong, OLB style, by just comparing similar sounding words from totally different cultures.

Btw, I know I once tried to use this Niflheim as the Norse name of the place where Dogger Island was once located. I assumed that several cold and warm sea currents would meet near Dogger Island, creating a lot of fog.

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OK, you were busy, but I was busy too..... reading 34 pages to be able to give you some sort of summary of the Doggerland thread.

Uhmm... first things first: Niflheim meant noting but place of fog, mist, "nifl".

That's where you go wrong, OLB style, by just comparing similar sounding words from totally different cultures.

Btw, I know I once tried to use this Niflheim as the Norse name of the place where Dogger Island was once located. I assumed that several cold and warm sea currents would meet near Dogger Island, creating a lot of fog.

Forgot to add this (from Wiki):

Niflheimr or Niflheim ("Mist Home", the "Abode of Mist" or "Mist World"); Nifl being cognate with the Old English Nifol ("dark") and Nebel, a German and Latin root meaning fog) is one of the Nine Worlds and is a location in Norse mythology which overlaps with the notions of Niflhel and Hel. The name Niflheimr only appears in two extant sources and they are Gylfaginning and the much debated Hrafnagaldr Óðins.

According to Gylfaginning, it was one of the two primordial realms, the other one being Muspelheim, the realm of fire. Between these two realms of cold and heat, creation began. Later, it became the location of Hel, the abode of those who did not die a heroic death.

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"So, it appears then that Nyhellenia could be associated with sailing to the Canary Islands, an island of dogs and the apple"

Yes, that appears to be a very good bet.

But I say it again: why does this goddess, Nehalennia - in the way she has been depicted hundreds of times on votive altars - only show up on the south west coast of The Netherlands?

You'd expect at least one other find in perhaps the Canary Islands?

Btw, in the OLB there is no talk about apples when Nyhellennia is being mentioned: she carried eggs instead.

Now this might prove according to you, Puzz, that Nyhellenia is not the same as Nehalennia, as you suggested earlier.

But... the votive altars of Nehalennia were found near Walcheren, and Nyhellenia was burgtmaid/priestess of Walhallagara.

The accepted etymology of 'Walcheren' gives something totally different than 'Walhallagara'/ one souce even said the city/island was named after a Viking king with a really very similar name:

During the next couple of centuries the area lied desolate and deserted. Only as from the sixth century more or less permanent inhabitation was reported again; Frisians who came down from the north and settled on the higher grounds of the coastal area. At about the same place of the former Roman settlement on the Scheldt estuary the founded a new trading place and named it Walacria ('wal acra' means 'large acre'). Probably the present name Walcheren was derived of this, although other sources point to the Viking king Walcherius as the origin of the island's name.

http://islas.ruudbijlsma.nl/wcr_en.htm

A bit more:

Already in Roman days, the island was a point of departure for ships going to Britain and it had a temple of the goddess Nehalennia who was popular with those who wished to brave the waters of the North Sea. The Romans called it "Wallacra". Walcheren was the seat of the Danish Viking Harald, who conquered the present Netherlands together with his compatriot Rorik (or Rurik) in the ninth century. One fringe theory has it that it was the island described by Ibn Rustah as the seat of the khagan of the Rus'. Another fringe theory mentions Walcheren as the seat of Hades, described by Homer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walcheren

.

Edited by Abramelin
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"So, it appears then that Nyhellenia could be associated with sailing to the Canary Islands, an island of dogs and the apple"

Yes, that appears to be a very good bet.

But I say it again: why does this goddess, Nehalennia - in the way she has been depicted hundreds of times on votive altars - only show up on the south west coast of The Netherlands?

You'd expect at least one other find in perhaps the Canary Islands?

Btw, in the OLB there is no talk about apples when Nyhellennia is being mentioned: she carried eggs instead.

Now this might prove according to you, Puzz, that Nyhellenia is not the same as Nehalennia, as you suggested earlier.

But... the votive altars of Nehalennia were found near Walcheren, and Nyhellenia was burgtmaid/priestess of Walhallagara.

The accepted etymology of 'Walcheren' gives something totally different than 'Walhallagara'/ one souce even said the city/island was named after a Viking king with a really very similar name:

During the next couple of centuries the area lied desolate and deserted. Only as from the sixth century more or less permanent inhabitation was reported again; Frisians who came down from the north and settled on the higher grounds of the coastal area. At about the same place of the former Roman settlement on the Scheldt estuary the founded a new trading place and named it Walacria ('wal acra' means 'large acre'). Probably the present name Walcheren was derived of this, although other sources point to the Viking king Walcherius as the origin of the island's name.

http://islas.ruudbijlsma.nl/wcr_en.htm

A bit more:

Already in Roman days, the island was a point of departure for ships going to Britain and it had a temple of the goddess Nehalennia who was popular with those who wished to brave the waters of the North Sea. The Romans called it "Wallacra". Walcheren was the seat of the Danish Viking Harald, who conquered the present Netherlands together with his compatriot Rorik (or Rurik) in the ninth century. One fringe theory has it that it was the island described by Ibn Rustah as the seat of the khagan of the Rus'. Another fringe theory mentions Walcheren as the seat of Hades, described by Homer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walcheren

.

Just too late to edit:

A bit more:

One of those fringe theories is from Iman Wilkins:

The island of Hades is found in the extreme Southwest of Zeeland and is now known as Walcheren, a name cognate with the German Walkuren and English Valkyries, the handmaidens of Odin who in Nordic mythology, rode through the air and picked out the heroes who were to fall in battle, and accompanied the dead into the world beyond. In the Iliad, this was the task of the Ker (often translated as 'Fate), and if we combine this word with the Old Norse Val, meaning both "battlefield" and "dead warrior", we get Val-ker, plural Valkeren, clearly the same as Walcheren (the island) and Valkyries... Homer explains: "He had fallen to Ker and gone down to the house of Hades." (Odyssey VI, 11) [Wilkens]

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/Laura-Knight-Jadczyk/article-lkj-04-03-06-l.htm.

I hope you see what this Wilkins is doing: he blends a Greek word with a Norse word, according to true OLB style of raping the history of language.

No wonder Jaylmurph doesn't show up in this thread: of all people here he would be very capable - as a linguist - to debunk this whole rape of the science of linguistics, but because he is still recovering from a serious illness, he backs off to save his physical (and no doubt, his mental) health.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Just too late to edit:

A bit more:

One of those fringe theories is from Iman Wilkins:

The island of Hades is found in the extreme Southwest of Zeeland and is now known as Walcheren, a name cognate with the German Walkuren and English Valkyries, the handmaidens of Odin who in Nordic mythology, rode through the air and picked out the heroes who were to fall in battle, and accompanied the dead into the world beyond. In the Iliad, this was the task of the Ker (often translated as 'Fate), and if we combine this word with the Old Norse Val, meaning both "battlefield" and "dead warrior", we get Val-ker, plural Valkeren, clearly the same as Walcheren (the island) and Valkyries... Homer explains: "He had fallen to Ker and gone down to the house of Hades." (Odyssey VI, 11) [Wilkens]

http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/Laura-Knight-Jadczyk/article-lkj-04-03-06-l.htm.

I hope you see what this Wilkins is doing: he blends a Greek word with a Norse word, according to true OLB style of raping the history of language.

No wonder Jaylmurph doesn't show up in this thread: of all people here he would be very capable - as a linguist - to debunk this whole rape of the science of linguistics, but because he is still recovering from a serious illness, he backs off to save his physical (and no doubt, his mental) health.

.

Maybe he's not here to save MY mental health....

I hear everything you are saying, seriously I do. Thanks for all the info you have provided.

I'm sitting here a genuine Libran fence-sitter on this whole topic.

Wallcheren, OK, named by Romans, so what was it's name before that I wonder?

Second, the OLB says Walhallagara. Ever heard of Walhalla? A huge German hall building with busts and things about famous German people? A sort of Valhalla but with a W, German. Walhalla - gara sounds more like Valhalla than anything.

Do you know if Wallacria was named Walhallagara before the Romans named it.

I tried to answer a bit, going around in circles and writing a heap of stuff but then recalled I had read that sheep could mean apple.

If we spoke about an island of God, Gotland with a sheep on the flag - as Faro means far away or sheep in Swedish, that is, not Gurtnish like on Gotland, so

an island of God and sheep far away in Hel, could be translated as God with apples in Hell, the apple equals temptation that takes you to Hell.

The confusion of the Golden Fleece actually being Golden Apples or the other way around, probably more likely the sheep were on the Canary Islands but in Greek this got mixed up as apples. This could mean the original people who landed there could have been Gotlanders, people with a God from an island far away, with not apples, but sheep. There is wild sheep on the Canary Islands.

The next thing is the dogs. Dogs more than likely would have been in the Nordic lands, wolves and the like, domesticated. Sheep dog with apples...OK

Canary Islands - Isle of Inferno it was called in later times, why? A huge volcano resides there, massive, with a snow topped peak, the God of it has been locked inside it...

An island of fire in the Western Ocean with apples (sheep) and some pretty nasty dogs there, gone wild, sorta Cerberus like when the people left, guarding the island of fire.

The island of Hera where the golden 'apples' are being guarded by Atlas'daughters

.

People don't farm sheep in the tropics, I know, I live in a tropical part of Australia and there is too much rain and humidity, they get footrot and all sorts of things, Asia has the apples, not Northern Europe, N.Europe has the sheep.

Gotland could be Avalon, the apple isle...really the sheep isle.

The Canary Islands could be Hades, volcano, scary wild dog guarding it, island in the West or maybe Gotland is both.

If the Gotlanders have reached the Canary Islands, a place of firey, volcanic activity from Hel, where the top of this is in the sky and the Gods live there, where vicious, wild dogs guard the entrance to the home of Hades and Persephone lives there half the year, (Persephone, who we find in Etruscan as persipne, looking like Medusa with snakes in her hair, Medusa, who on having sex with Poseidon in Athena's temple changed her hair to snakes as punishment. Libya, where Perseus went to kill her, a most ancient deity connected with Greece, Etruscans and Libya as well as the beginning of Perseus reign when he takes in the Ethiopian Andromeda)

Ethiopia, Mt Kilimanjaro, the home of the Gods when not at Olympus.

An eruption on Tenerife could have made these people think the Gods were mad at them, they feel the ground shake and the earth moves, flooding starts, they get out of there and head into the Mediterranean to Libya.

Does Nahellenia represent an updated version of the original Minerva/Athena figure I wonder, who really did come from the area of Hel, sailed down in the Middle Bronze Age and landed on the Canary Islands, Hades or the home of Hephaestus. They then came into the Meditteranean and settled on Thera (not Crete). When Thera erupted they moved onto Crete and instituted the Bull Cult there, they were on Lemnos and probably Rhodes early on. They interacted with Phoenicians. Dorian Rhodes, a home of Poseidon, Aphrodite, Dorians, the Sun, Helios.

I think through Rhodes they also head into Syria and settled an area called Poseidia on ancient maps and interacted with Hittites. That is how the Athenians seem to be in Asia Minor. People like the Phocaeans of the Asia Minor coast, oddly enough the Ionian area, Athenians, were the best sailors with the finest fleet, not Athens. The Phocaeans settled Marseilles, the OLB seems to mean Phoencians but could easily be Phocaeans. The Phocaeans were the first to sail to Tartessos and find a king with an Etruscan name. Alewyn mentioned them too. It appears the people of Iberia, Libya, thru Malta and Sicily, Etruscans, Ionian Sea people and Ionians in Asia Minor, on Lemnos, Thera and Rhodes can be connected according to my idea.

The people who came into the Pelops. was what appears to be an Asia Minor line and I say that is true. This line came from Poseidia and that would be the area of the Ahhiyawa.

They possibly being Achaeans with Wilusa as Troy.

I dunno yet Abe what is quite going on but something seems to be coming together.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Well, I'll just post a couple of remarks before you continue.

"Gotland could be Avalon, the apple isle...really the sheep isle.

The Canary Islands could be Hades, volcano, scary wild dog guarding it, island in the West or maybe Gotland is both."

There is one little problem: both Avalon and Hades eventually went somewhere 'down below', to become 'underworlds'.

Gotland and the Canary islands are still above water.

"If the Gotlanders have reached the Canary Islands, a place of firey, volcanic activity from Hel, where the top of this is in the sky and the Gods live there, where vicious, wild dogs guard the entrance to the home of Hades and Persephone lives there half the year,"

The association of hell with fire is of much later date, and very probably Christian in origin. Not even the Greek and Romans saw it as a 'fiery' place, just as an 'underworld'.

The more I read this, the more I think there was only one original 'Hell", and that was the sea named after it, what would be called the North Sea during much later times.

I will upload a couple of old images (in German) of placenames in The Netherlands and Germany with 'hel' in the name. Just to give you an idea about where that original 'hel' might have been located.

HELL.jpg

HELL2.jpg

And it's from this pdf:

http://www.ura-linda.de/buecher/helreich.pdf

(I hope you can read the link, lol: Ura Linda).

Even if you don't speak German, I am sure you will see a lot of words that in English mean "hell hounds", or "hound".

Btw, I remembered I had these pics for a very long time, I only just found out where I got them from....and why.

("Totenreich" = realm of the dead)

.

Edited by Abramelin
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So from the looks of your map, Hel is right above Damme. :lol:

Lapiche

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