[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[stereologist]

I am way back on page 15 and reading. I just wanted to say this is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time.

The only comment I have so far is that rapid pole shifts have never happened. There was a suggestion an effect, but they have not happened. The closest possible true polar wandering appears to be 84Ma. That event is being hotly discussed. Outside of that event no TPWs in the last 200Ma.

[The Puzzler]

Hmmmm... so you people call us Huns, eh?

And what did we do to deserve that nickname??

I don't know, that's what I was wondering, so had sort of thought the Dutch were actually Huns, but it seems maybe not then.

'Hun' was a derogatory nickname used primarily by the British and Americans - officers rather than men - during the First World War to describe the German Army, e.g. "the Huns attacked at dawn".

The origin of the term dated back to the Boxer Rebellion (1899-1900); in despatching his troops to China Kaiser Wilhelm II instructed them in a speech to behave like the Huns of old and to wreak vengeance ("let the Germans strike fear into the hearts, so he'll be feared like the Hun").

The term was widely used by Allied propaganda to suggest the worst kind of conduct from the German 'Huns', crushing neutral nations and imposing brutal rule upon conquered peoples.

http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/hun.htm

Obviosuly some mixed up propaganda, but it stuck I guess, the Dutch must have been lumped in with those Germans.

PS: Please excuse our Antipodean ignorance.

Edited August 7, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I am way back on page 15 and reading. I just wanted to say this is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a long time.

The only comment I have so far is that rapid pole shifts have never happened. There was a suggestion an effect, but they have not happened. The closest possible true polar wandering appears to be 84Ma. That event is being hotly discussed. Outside of that event no TPWs in the last 200Ma.

Cool, glad you are enjoying it, I found it one of the most interesting ones I have participated in, have learnt SO much in this thread.

Rapid pole shifts really don't sound like something that can happen, I have read quite a lot on it too and just can't see it happening after all is said and done.

[The Puzzler]

They found Mycenian artifacts in graves near Stonehenge and elsewhere in England, and amber from the North Sea and the Baltic can be found all over Europe.

So they will have had contact, sure, but does that mean everything in Europe started with Freya's people?

I don't think so.

I'm not so sure, I wouldn't say everything but it does appear some things may have been.

I'm stuck on the hearth and the fire of Freya, a Hestia/Hera Goddess that does seem to have early connections in Greece and if the Myceneans who travelled North somehow have this God or a selection of Gods that were transferred into Greece then, it would mean that ancient Greece was influenced by early (what sounds like Freya) beliefs.

She is a particular Goddess Egypt doesn't have, along with the quintessential Twins, the Dioscuri and since the Twins God role can be seen in the Nordic Bronze Age, it seems like Hestia and the twins have come into Greece from the North - which then makes me question what else the Greeks have that really came from the North and then if other cultures apparently took from the Greeks, does the connection actually go back around in a circle to later times, hence, the Gods of Greece are actually the Nordic Gods (some of them) and when the culture of Greece reaches Western Europe again they are reintroduced, in slightly different forms.

I find the word Aesir of Etruscan meaning Gods and iron really interesting and I can only concede the Nordic panthenon has a connection. If as they say Etruscan everything was influenced by Greek (and the Greeks bought some ofthese Northern Gods in) and then the Romans took these Gods again north, they are really their own (the Northern) Gods in the first place!

This is why it fries my brain....

[Qoais]

I've been totally enjoying this thread as well. I know some of the suggestions are way out there, but it's very interesting how a person's mind gets motivated and then just keeps on going. I found it interesting about the iron also and kind of half assed think Puz might have something there, about the circle of belief travelling from the north to Greece, to the Romans, and back to the North. Fascinating.

[The Puzzler]

I've been totally enjoying this thread as well. I know some of the suggestions are way out there, but it's very interesting how a person's mind gets motivated and then just keeps on going. I found it interesting about the iron also and kind of half assed think Puz might have something there, about the circle of belief travelling from the north to Greece, to the Romans, and back to the North. Fascinating.

It sure is fascinating Q!

Edit to remove a lot of babble lol

Edited August 7, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Yes Stereologist and Qoais, I think it's obvious both Puzzler and I enjoy it too.

I see it as a kind of big puzzle with missing pieces.

But from the pieces we got, Puzz and I create rather different end pictures, lol.

And maybe that's mainly caused from the different directions we both try to tackle solving this puzzle: Puzzler mainly from the side of available ancient mythology, I myself mainly from the possible sources and background of the Oera Linda Book itself.

[Abramelin]

I'm not so sure, I wouldn't say everything but it does appear some things may have been.

I'm stuck on the hearth and the fire of Freya, a Hestia/Hera Goddess that does seem to have early connections in Greece and if the Myceneans who travelled North somehow have this God or a selection of Gods that were transferred into Greece then, it would mean that ancient Greece was influenced by early (what sounds like Freya) beliefs.

She is a particular Goddess Egypt doesn't have, along with the quintessential Twins, the Dioscuri and since the Twins God role can be seen in the Nordic Bronze Age, it seems like Hestia and the twins have come into Greece from the North - which then makes me question what else the Greeks have that really came from the North and then if other cultures apparently took from the Greeks, does the connection actually go back around in a circle to later times, hence, the Gods of Greece are actually the Nordic Gods (some of them) and when the culture of Greece reaches Western Europe again they are reintroduced, in slightly different forms.

I find the word Aesir of Etruscan meaning Gods and iron really interesting and I can only concede the Nordic panthenon has a connection. If as they say Etruscan everything was influenced by Greek (and the Greeks bought some ofthese Northern Gods in) and then the Romans took these Gods again north, they are really their own (the Northern) Gods in the first place!

This is why it fries my brain....

The contact I suggested could have been a direct contact, but Mycenian artifacts could also have ended up in England by trade alone. And the same thing is true for mythology: names and stories and myths could end up on both sides of Europe by travelling people alone talking about it to people they meet along their way; and with travelling I mean a route with many stops along their way, like the many stops to go from A to Z (24), not a direct A-Z contact.

About the Etruscan god Aesir, actually the same thing: it can mean iron, and it can mean a god, and iron stuff must have been a very wanted trade object for people back then.

Btw, the Dutch word for iron is "ijzer", and it sounds exactly the same as the Etruscan 'Aesir"...

EDIT:

I know you have mentioned the Veneti people, and on the "paabo" site this guy had a theory of boat people around/in the Baltic who travelled far and wide, even up to the Mediterannean (using European rivers and the seas), and left their traces all over Europe (in place names, language and names for tribes). But according to the guy who created the site (a "Paabo", an Estonian guy) that all happened many millenia ago.

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name.html

.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

I was following something and got to the Menapii people

The Menapii were a Belgic tribe of northern Gaul in pre-Roman and Roman times. Their territory according to Strabo and Ptolemy is located at the mouth of the Rhine and from there extending southwards along the Schelde. Their civitas was Cassel (northern France), near Terouanne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menapii

Let's absorb this tidbit:

The medieval Gesta Treverorum compiled by monks of Trier claims that the Belgae were descendants of Trebata, an otherwise unattested legendary founder of Trier, the Roman Augusta Treverorum, "Augusta of the Treveri".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae

According to the Gesta Treverorum, the city was founded by Trebeta, an Assyrian prince, centuries before ancient Rome. He was the son of Ninus, King of Assyria, by a wife prior to his marriage to Queen Semiramis. His stepmother, Semiramis, despised him and when she took over the kingdom after the death of his father, Ninus, Trebeta left Assyria and went to Europe. After wandering for a time, he led a group of colonizers to settle at Trier around 2000 BC in what is now Germany. Trebeta is also reputed to have been at Strasbourg, France. Upon his death, his body was cremated on Petrisberg by the people of Trier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trier

The German people of Trier and Belgae people were descended from Ninus of Assyria?! Can this get any weirder?

Now, I know people like to give themselves these elaborate heritages but what say this is true? Who is this mysterious Ninus that pops up everywhere as a son of Baal...he's a son of Belus too, who went to Assyria and built Ninevah. Herodotus pops him into the Heraclid line.

[The Puzzler]

On Ninus:

Ninus, according to Greek historians writing in the Hellenistic period and later, was accepted as the eponymous founder of Nineveh (also called Ninus in Greek), Ancient capital of Assyria, although he does not seem to represent any one personage known to modern history, and is more likely a conflation of several real and/or fictional figures of antiquity, as seen to the Greeks through the mists of time.

Many early accomplishments are attributed to him, such as training the first hunting dogs, and taming horses for riding[citation needed]. For this accomplishment, he is sometimes represented in Greek mythology as a centaur.

Huh...I told you before the Greeks thought the Celts with their limewater hair riding horses were often called Centaurs, Assyrians could have easily ridden horses into Europe. I personally don't think it's that strange an idea as much as it probably clashes with history as we know it.

[Abramelin]

I was following something and got to the Menapii people

The Menapii were a Belgic tribe of northern Gaul in pre-Roman and Roman times. Their territory according to Strabo and Ptolemy is located at the mouth of the Rhine and from there extending southwards along the Schelde. Their civitas was Cassel (northern France), near Terouanne.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Menapii

Let's absorb this tidbit:

The medieval Gesta Treverorum compiled by monks of Trier claims that the Belgae were descendants of Trebata, an otherwise unattested legendary founder of Trier, the Roman Augusta Treverorum, "Augusta of the Treveri".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae

According to the Gesta Treverorum, the city was founded by Trebeta, an Assyrian prince, centuries before ancient Rome. He was the son of Ninus, King of Assyria, by a wife prior to his marriage to Queen Semiramis. His stepmother, Semiramis, despised him and when she took over the kingdom after the death of his father, Ninus, Trebeta left Assyria and went to Europe. After wandering for a time, he led a group of colonizers to settle at Trier around 2000 BC in what is now Germany. Trebeta is also reputed to have been at Strasbourg, France. Upon his death, his body was cremated on Petrisberg by the people of Trier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trier

The German people of Trier and Belgae people were descended from Ninus of Assyria?! Can this get any weirder?

Now, I know people like to give themselves these elaborate heritages but what say this is true? Who is this mysterious Ninus that pops up everywhere as a son of Baal...he's a son of Belus too, who went to Assyria and built Ninevah. Herodotus pops him into the Heraclid line.

Does it not sound at least a bit suspicious that it are always Christian monks who think the ancestry of some European tribe lies somewhere in ancient Mesopotamia?

Btw, did you read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrebates

[The Puzzler]

The contact I suggested could have been a direct contact, but Mycenian artifacts could also have ended up in England by trade alone. And the same thing is true for mythology: names and stories and myths could end up on both sides of Europe by travelling people alone talking about it to people they meet along their way; and with travelling I mean a route with many stops along their way, like the many stops to go from A to Z (24), not a direct A-Z contact.

About the Etruscan god Aesir, actually the same thing: it can mean iron, and it can mean a god, and iron stuff must have been a very wanted trade object for people back then.

Btw, the Dutch word for iron is "ijzer", and it sounds exactly the same as the Etruscan 'Aesir"...

EDIT:

I know you have mentioned the Veneti people, and on the "paabo" site this guy had a theory of boat people around/in the Baltic who travelled far and wide, even up to the Mediterannean (using European rivers and the seas), and left their traces all over Europe (in place names, language and names for tribes). But according to the guy who created the site (a "Paabo", an Estonian guy) that all happened many millenia ago.

http://www.paabo.ca/uirala/uini-name.html

.

Yes, Chinese Whispers really changes things and that is true and I'd say whoever the merchants were bought the stories and Gods in.

ijzer sounds like iron, like aesir, aisar - the same as Gods, that's weird, maybe.

Yes, the Magi apparently wanted the iron, they only had copper and stone weapons.

The Aesir Gods apparently in the legend fought with iron weapons, the Gods might be the people with the iron then since Wodin appears to become a hero of the new people who made Wodin's son a King.

[The Puzzler]

Does it not sound at least a bit suspicious that it are always Christian monks who think the ancestry of some European tribe lies somewhere in ancient Mesopotamia?

Btw, did you read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrebates

In 57 BC they were part of a Belgic military alliance in response to Julius Caesar's conquests elsewhere in Gaul, contributing 15,000 men[5]. Caesar took this build-up as a threat and marched against it, but the Belgae had the advantage of position and the result was a stand-off[citation needed]. When no battle was forthcoming the Belgic alliance broke up, determining to gather to defend whichever tribe Caesar attacked. Caesar subsequently marched against several tribes and achieved their submission.

I didn't read that article but maybe I read one that joined up on the other end...

The Menapii were persistent opponents of Julius Caesar's conquest of Gaul, resisting until 54 BC. They were part of the Belgic confederacy defeated by Caesar in 57 BC, contributing 9,000 men.[1] The following year they sided with the Veneti against Caesar.[2] Caesar was again victorious, but the Menapii and the Morini refused to make peace and continued to fight against him. They withdrew into the forests and swamps and conducted a hit-and-run campaign. Caesar responded by cutting down the forests, seizing their cattle and burning their settlements, but this was interrupted by heavy rain and the onset of winter, and the Menapii and Morini withdrew further into the forests.[3] In 55 BC the Menapii tried to resist a Germanic incursion across the Rhine, but were defeated.[4] Later that year, while Caesar made his first expedition to Britain, he sent two of his legates and the majority of his army to the territories of the Menapii and Morini to keep them under control.[5] Once again, they retired to the woods, and the Romans burned their crops and settlements.[6] The Menapii joined the revolt led by Ambiorix in 54 BC. Caesar says that they, alone of all the tribes of Gaul, had never sent ambassadors to him to discuss terms of peace, and had ties of hospitality with Ambiorix. For that reason he decided to lead five legions against them. A renewed campaign of devastation finally forced them to submit, and Caesar placed his ally Commius of the Atrebates in control of them.

The Menapii, who I was just saying had the line to Assyria. I notice also here the Menapii had a connection to the Veneti you mentioned.

Going back abit further and why I was at the Menapii to start with:

The Sicambri appear in history around 55 BC, during the time of conquests of Gaul by Julius Caesar and his expansion of the Roman Empire. Caesar wrote in his Commentarii de Bello Gallico that at the confluence of the Rhine and Meuse River a battle took place in the land of the Menapii with Tencteri and Usipetes. When these two peoples were routed by him their cavalry escaped and found asylum north of the river with the Sicambri. Caesar then built a bridge across the river to punish the Sicambri.

Claudius Ptolemy located the Sicambri, together with the Bructeri Minores, at the most northern part of the Rhine and south of the Frisians who inhabit the coast north of the river. Strabo located the Sicambri next to the Menapii, “who dwell on both sides of the river Rhine near its mouth, in marshes and woods. It is opposite to these Menapii that the Sicambri are situated". So the Sicambri must have lived at the lower Rhine in what is now called the Netherlands.

Sicambri sounds a lot like Umbria to me in a way or then even Northumbria, the area in England I believe we find the closest English to Frisian.

Now would you believe the French Franks have themselves a Trojan/Sicambi line.

An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pontus near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called Sicambria. In just 2 generations from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. A variation of this story can also be read in Fredegar, and similar tales continue to crop up repeatedly throughout obscure, mediaeval-era European literature.

These stories have obvious difficulties. Historians, including eyewitnesses like Caesar, have given us accounts that place the Sicambri firmly at the delta of the Rhine, and archaeologists have confirmed ongoing settlement of peoples. Furthermore the myth does not come from the Sicambri themselves, but from later Franks, and includes an incorrect geography. But most of all these stories are a "farrago nonsense" (Wood), for a man does not live that long. For these reasons, and since the Sicambri were known to have been Germanic, and not Scythian or Cimmerian as the story claims, modern scholars reject it as an unhistorical legend. For example J.M. Wallace-Hadrill states that "this legend is quite without historical substance". Ian Wood says that "these tales are obviously no more than legend" and "nonsensical", "in fact there is no reason to believe that the Franks were involved in any long-distance migration".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicambri

Utter nonsense I'm sure...if we assume their was long distance travel.

Like I said Sicambri sounds a bit like Umbria to me actually...

Edited August 7, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The descendants of Magog are the so-called Scythians and the numerous tribes, such as the Goths and part of the Swedes, that grew out of them. From both historical sources and recent genetic research, we are able to trace the movements of these people and determine where they are located today. The Magogites were long displaced by other tribes from the ancient land of Scythia. They also have a strong connection with the British Isles. A comprehensive history and genealogy of one particular group, the Irish, is given in the Appendix.

http://www.logon.org/english/s/p046c.html I haven't scrutinised that website nor really read it completely but wanted a general idea of the line of Magog, which is a lineage that goes from Mesopotamia to Europe in ancient times.

Hmm, the Bible seems to imply that Japeth's European lineage went through the Magog line and through the Goths and the Swedes who grew out of them, so it doesn't seem to be Christian writers who came up with idea but it is an Old Testament idea.

The Europeans according to the Jews DID come out of Mesopotamia. Magog could be Magi, in word for starters...the Goths in Hungary could be the Magyars, so the Magyars would be of Magog, the gypsies and that, sounds like the Chaldeans.

Displaced tribes from the area of Scythia, who became Goths and Swedes, a language called Gutish or something like that, I mentioned it some posts back, will check exactly in a minute, is found in the steppes c. 2000BC by an unknown people, I thought it sounded like the word Gurtnish, the language spoken in the North Sea area, particularly Gotland, and also wondered about the ram and everything else God related on it. It could appear that Assyrians, who moved north into Scythia, maybe even became Scythians themselves as they became wilder, moved west into the area of the later Goths and into Sweden. This is just the way IE would have gone from the steppes. An Aryan perspective would have it the other way around.

Edited August 7, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

You mentioned Northumbria, but that has nothing to do with anything in Italy, and it's like a 1000 years younger than the Italian Umbria.

"The Humber is now only an estuary; but when the world sea level was lower during the Ice Ages, the Humber had a long freshwater course across the dry bed of the North Sea.

In the Anglo-Saxon period, the Humber was a major boundary, separating Northumbria from the southern kingdoms. Indeed, the name Northumbria came from Anglo-Saxon Norðhymbre (plural) = "the people north of the Humber". The Humber currently forms the boundary between the East Riding of Yorkshire, to the north and North and North East Lincolnshire, to the south."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humber

According to the same wiki page, "Humber" very probably meant nothing else but "river".

[Abramelin]

The descendants of Magog are the so-called Scythians and the numerous tribes, such as the Goths and part of the Swedes, that grew out of them. From both historical sources and recent genetic research, we are able to trace the movements of these people and determine where they are located today. The Magogites were long displaced by other tribes from the ancient land of Scythia. They also have a strong connection with the British Isles. A comprehensive history and genealogy of one particular group, the Irish, is given in the Appendix.

http://www.logon.org/english/s/p046c.html I haven't scrutinised that website nor really read it completely but wanted a general idea of the line of Magog, which is a lineage that goes from Mesopotamia to Europe in ancient times.

Hmm, the Bible seems to imply that Japeth's European lineage went through the Magog line and through the Goths and the Swedes who grew out of them, so it doesn't seem to be Christian writers who came up with idea but it is an Old Testament idea.

The Europeans according to the Jews DID come out of Mesopotamia. Magog could be Magi, in word for starters...the Goths in Hungary could be the Magyars, so the Magyars would be of Magog, the gypsies and that, sounds like the Chaldeans.

Displaced tribes from the area of Scythia, who became Goths and Swedes, a language called Gutish or something like that, I mentioned it some posts back, will check exactly in a minute, is found in the steppes c. 2000BC by an unknown people, I thought it sounded like the word Gurtnish, the language spoken in the North Sea area, particularly Gotland, and also wondered about the ram and everything else God related on it. It could appear that Assyrians, who moved north into Scythia, maybe even became Scythians themselves as they became wilder, moved west into the area of the later Goths and into Sweden. This is just the way IE would have gone from the steppes. An Aryan perspective would have it the other way around.

Well, I don't think we have to take those stories very seriously. If you want prove your holy book is right, then this is what we get, things like the Christian monks invented to prove the diaspora of the 'lost tribes', the fall of the Tower of Babel, the Deluge/Noah, and so on.

I have read some Turkish webpages (in Dutch and English), and if we have to believe what some Turks claim, then half of the world descends from them.

It's more about feeling great about one's heritage (religious and cultural) than about actual history.

[The Puzzler]

Well, I don't think we have to take those stories very seriously. If you want prove your holy book is right, then this is what we get, things like the Christian monks invented to prove the diaspora of the 'lost tribes', the fall of the Tower of Babel, the Deluge/Noah, and so on.

I have read some Turkish webpages (in Dutch and English), and if we have to believe what some Turks claim, then half of the world descends from them.

It's more about feeling great about one's heritage (religious and cultural) than about actual history.

What are you on about, I have no holy book. I am not trying to prove it's worth, I'm not even religious, what I'm saying is it (with a history written around at least 500BC) gives a line a bit like the IE line out of the steppes and also says what the people themselves may have recorded them as being, the Goths do have a history from coming back out of Gotland area later and Goliath is supposed to be a possible Goth, did you know they found words there that relate to Illyrian?

No Indo-European Aryans from North believer (ie, early Hitler cult) of the 19th century wanted to hear they came from Mesopotamia, of course it would be rubbished.

What about that topic, why did Hitler want to kill the Jews so much, and come to think of it, the gypsies...., was he trying to eradicate the evidence of the German line having a possible Jewish descent in his quest of Aryan fantacism?...Food for thought indeed.

[Abramelin]

What are you on about, I have no holy book. I am not trying to prove it's worth, I'm not even religious, what I'm saying is it (with a history written around at least 500BC) gives a line a bit like the IE line out of the steppes and also says what the people themselves may have recorded them as being, the Goths do have a history from coming back out of Gotland area later and Goliath is supposed to be a possible Goth, did you know they found words there that relate to Illyrian?

No Indo-European Aryans from North believer (ie, early Hitler cult) of the 19th century wanted to hear they came from Mesopotamia, of course it would be rubbished.

What about that topic, why did Hitler want to kill the Jews so much, and come to think of it, the gypsies...., was he trying to eradicate the evidence of the German line having a possible Jewish descent in his quest of Aryan fantacism?...Food for thought indeed.

That's the problem with the English language, when I say 'your holy book', I mean in in general, not like in 'Puzzler's holy book'...

In short: the Bible, the Torah, the Qur'an, The Vedas, and so on. And let's not forget about the Oera Linda Book.

And then this: isn't your head spinning by now by dragging up old and new words, myths, legends, holy books, and what have we?

Sorry, but to me it's like you are grabbing into a deep dark barrel filled with all kinds of stuff, and when you bring something you found in front of your eyes, you say, "Now doesn't this look nice?"

People have made all kinds of crazy claims based on nothing but similarities in words of totally different languages.

I think the further we go off-topic with all this, the less we will learn about the OLB. For me it resembles travelling from Rome to Napels, but by making a huge detour through Russia and Africa first.

And I still think that is what we are here for, in this thread: find out the truth about he OLB.

The more we stick to it's actual words, the faster and further we will get anywhere.

[The Puzzler]

Were the Jews the real Aryan Race it's called, my answer...most probably, in the area of where the Persians popped up out of nowhere from, Northern Iran, the Iranians, the Aryans who went to Europe and became Finns, Swedes, Hungarians...the Magi, how crazy is that? The Sami line in Lapland.

The first mention of a Uralic people is in Tacitus' Germania,[6] mentioning the Fenni (usually interpreted as referring to the Sami) and two other possibly Finno-Ugric tribes living in the farthest reaches of Scandinavia. In the late 15th century, European scholars noted the resemblance of the names Hungaria and Yugria, the names of settlements east of the Ural. They assumed a connection, but did not look into linguistic evidence. In 1671, Swedish scholar Georg Stiernhielm commented on the similarities of Lapp, Estonian and Finnish, and also on a few similar words in Finnish and Hungarian, while the German scholar Martin Vogel tried to establish a relationship between Finnish, Lapp and Hungarian. These two authors were thus the first to outline what was to become the classification of a Finno-Ugric family. In 1717, Swedish professor Olof Rudbeck proposed about 100 etymologies connecting Finnish and Hungarian, of which about 40 are still considered valid (Collinder, 1965). In the same year, the German scholar Johann Georg von Eckhart (published in Leibniz' Collectanea Etymologica) for the first time proposed a relation to the Samoyedic languages.

By 1770, all constituents of Finno-Ugric were known, almost 20 years before the traditional starting-point of Indo-European studies. Nonetheless, these relationships were not widely accepted. Especially Hungarian intellectuals were not interested in the theory and preferred to assume connections with Turkic tribes, an attitude characterized by Ruhlen (1987) as due to "the wild unfettered Romanticism of the epoch". Still, in spite of the hostile climate, the Hungarian Jesuit János Sajnovics suggested a relationship of Hungarian and Lapp (Sami) in 1770, and in 1799, the Hungarian Sámuel Gyarmathi published the most complete work on Finno-Ugric to that date.

At the beginning of the 19th century, research on Finno-Ugric was thus more advanced than Indo-European research. But the rise of Indo-European comparative linguistics absorbed so much attention and enthusiasm that Finno-Ugric linguistics was all but eclipsed in Europe; in Hungary, the only European country that would have had a vested interest in the family (Finland and Estonia being under Russian rule), the political climate was too hostile for the development of Uralic comparative linguistics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Ugric_languages

Hungary is interesting, right in the middle of Europe, above Greece, around Thrace, maybe even near the Villanovan culture who became the Etruscans they say, since they had haruspices and they were quite a Babylonian thing, not everyone knew how to read a sheeps liver ya know...

There really is nothing to say that Eastern Europeans were not in Germany prior to it being Germany as we know it, particularly since East Germany seems to have the ties to Eastern countries. These people made Wodin a King and probably started the Nordic pantheon which overlapped a previous one that had Tyr as head of it. The same pattern like IE follows for the chariot too, a Sun chariot (bringing Shamash in possibly or a similar Sun God, like Helios, mixed up between Babylon and Greece as Saturn and the Sun) as they rode in with their chariot and sun god. Helios and his sun city of Medea (Medes) probably came into Greece through Thrace from these people, the Getae, Zalmoxis, same as Zoroaster.

The area of modern-day Germany in the European Iron Age was divided into the (Celtic) La Tène horizon in Southern Germany and the (Germanic) Jastorf culture in Northern Germany. The predominant Y-chromosome haplogroup in Germans is R1b, followed by I and R1a; the predominant mitochondrial haplogroup is H, followed by U and T.[48]

The Germanic peoples during the Migrations Period came into contact with other peoples; in the case of the populations settling in the territory of modern Germany, they encountered Celts to the south, and Balts and Slavs towards the east.

The Limes Germanicus was breached in AD 260. Migrating Germanic tribes commingled with the local Gallo-Roman populations in what is now Swabia and Bavaria.

The Holy Roman Empire around AD 1000. The sphere of German influence (Regnum Teutonicorum) is marked in blue.The migration-period peoples who would coalesce into a "German" ethnicity were the Saxones, Frisii, Franci, Thuringii, Alamanni and Bavarii. By the 800s, the territory of modern Germany had been united under the rule of Charlemagne. Much of what is now Eastern Germany remained Slavonic-speaking (Sorbs and Veleti).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans

[The Puzzler]

That's the problem with the English language, when I say 'your holy book', I mean in in general, not like in 'Puzzler's holy book'...

In short: the Bible, the Torah, the Qur'an, The Vedas, and so on. And let's not forget about the Oera Linda Book.

And then this: isn't your head spinning by now by dragging up old and new words, myths, legends, holy books, and what have we?

Sorry, but to me it's like you are grabbing into a deep dark barrel filled with all kinds of stuff, and when you bring something you found in front of your eyes, you say, "Now doesn't this look nice?"

People have made all kinds of crazy claims based on nothing but similarities in words of totally different languages.

I think the further we go off-topic with all this, the less we will learn about the OLB. For me it resembles travelling from Rome to Napels, but by making a huge detour through Russia and Africa first.

And I still think that is what we are here for, in this thread: find out the truth about he OLB.

The more we stick to it's actual words, the faster and further we will get anywhere.

I am finding out the truth of the OLB book.

I don't think it's off topic at all. The book mentions Magyars coming into the area of Freya, if the Magyars are Hungarians, the Magyar and are gypsies with priests and they came in from the West as the book says, it aligns with the movement of not only Finno-Urgic but Indo-European, often assigned to the true Aryans, the Persians.

To me, the Magyars seem to be exactly what they should be, the Magi, from the steppes, who became the Persian 1500 years later.

Do you know if the Magi did come from Northen Turkey, the Caucasus or even higher in the steppes I think there is a chance it was these same people who built Gobekli Tepe, have been watching the stars for millenia and probably had the 10,000 odd years of celestial knowledge they said they had.

How about they came into Egypt too and started the priesthood down there, I do not accept the serpopard in Ugarit and the one on the Narmer Palette are independent of each other.

By sticking to local events you are missing the big picture, whoever looked at the 'little picture'...?

[Abramelin]

I am finding out the truth of the OLB book.

I don't think it's off topic at all. The book mentions Magyars coming into the area of Freya, if the Magyars are Hungarians, the Magyar and are gypsies with priests and they came in from the West as the book says, it aligns with the movement of not only Finno-Urgic but Indo-European, often assigned to the true Aryans, the Persians.

To me, the Magyars seem to be exactly what they should be, the Magi, from the steppes, who became the Persian 1500 years later.

Do you know if the Magi did come from Northen Turkey, the Caucasus or even higher in the steppes I think there is a chance it was these same people who built Gobekli Tepe, have been watching the stars for millenia and probably had the 10,000 odd years of celestial knowledge they said they had.

How about they came into Egypt too and started the priesthood down there, I do not accept the serpopard in Ugarit and the one on the Narmer Palette are independent of each other.

By sticking to local events you are missing the big picture, whoever looked at the 'little picture'...?

No, I am not missing 'the big picture' by looking at local events.

There are so many clues that the OLB is nothing but a fabrication based on local stories, myths, folklore, topography, and language, and engrandisizing (??) one's history, that for me it is most important to not dwell on world history, but to narrow one's view down to a small area like The Netherlands and in particular, the Frisian history.

You seem to assume that those 19th, 18th, 17th century Frisians knew nothing about all the things you quoted. But know this: most if not all you quoted from Roman and Greek and Middle Eastern sources was already known to them.

We are talking about very intelligent people who studied ancient languages, myths and all that. And they studied it in the original language; not like you and me are doing by quoting what we are able to dig up from English or Dutch sources on the internet.

---

EDIT:

Being able to speak and read ancient languages was something to be admired for back then. Much like being admired in this day and age for being rich and popular as an artist, a millionair, an TV personality, or some famous sports wo/man.

And I really hate that every post of mine says it's edited.

It feels like people should know about me using crutches. Damn.

Edited August 7, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

I do not doubt the writers, if it was written recently, were extremely intelligent.

If this was the case, I truly believe it was written so when it was translated into English it would appear to give what seemed like the story of Athena going into Greece and Minnos going into Colchis...

But when it does that it appears to give us what Homer et al. have hinted at and also what may have happened. That Minos was a sea king type, Athena came into Greece via Crete but we don't see her as Nahellenia so it must be crap right..?

The thing is with me, I personally think the myths do hold true stories and I think the Bible does follow a true path, now, let's not get carried away and say I'm a believer or any of that, what I say, is that I do not think they pulled any of this out of a hat, it is all based in what they knew had happened. I don't think it's literal but is based in events the Hebrews saw as being thier real history.

The Greek myths make very little sense in their forms and do not fit into a timeline we can work out but according to Plato they hold the truth.

I see the OLB a bit like the 2 Atlantis narratives and a huge clue to this is that the writing in the OLB cuts off mid sentence like Critias...

Let's say these writers of the OLB were inspired by Plato, who also gave us what according to him, was a TRUE story, but it makes no sense to us so we say, oh he was talking about politics only, the whole Atlantis thing is crap and no people of Poseidon came into Greece etc, all crap right...

I think they could be telling real stories, or at least stories that have some sort of basis in truth.

Who do you believe the Frisians were then? What do you say is their history prior to 600AD when Frisia was formed?

English language came from somewhere, I think people did speak a form of it exactly where English came from, the area of the Anglo-Saxons. The English language is only one form of IE really, so are we looking at the English language as being the original language of the Frisians when they were Anglo-Saxons, probably, so it would not seem that weird to have English letters in that writing to me and it appears exactly as I would expect it to, the same as people in Northumbria, England from when the Frisians went to England as part of the Anglo-Saxon invasion.

The original Frisians are not really if they have been around before the Dutch were generated, as I have said, they are living in land that was part of their own area, which expanded up into Sweden and as the Magyars came in, I say that could be the Sami, from the Urals, who bought in not the IE but the Finno-Urgic. 2 people were coming from the East the OLB book says, 1st, one who were not wild like Finda's people but more like Egyptians, with priests, copper and stone weapons, didn't have iron, it sounds like they didn't have Bronze either, only copper. They were driven by a second wave of people...

So, what we could have is the original speakers of an Anglo-Saxon language, the fair Swedes who were lactose intolerant, it's a common thing here, many Aussies are lactose intolerant, many of my friends don't drink cows milk, they drink soy milk or other deritives. Now I can only assume this may be because Australians, being mostly English derived, still carry the lactose intolerant gene since the English are actually Anglo-Saxon, I'm talking before the Norman invasion, who would have come down from Sweden and been in Northern Holland eventually being squished into the area they are now.

They went to England, imo that lactose intolerant gene would have went with them, as Europe became invaded by migrating Easterners from the steppes, the original Freya people, the fair Swedes who have been by now, mixed with the Finno-Urgic incomers, the Sami, who came in from the Urals with the spreading Finno-Urgic line, the Magyars too.

These were not the wild people but the ones more refined like Egyptians, very pious with priest kings, these people actually sound like the Aryans, the Iranians, the Persian people, they may have had some dark in them, possible looking black as the people would have mixed with Punjab indians, these would actually be the Aryans, true ones, as they mixed we got Germans and a form of the Germanic language, a language like English but IE based, Indo-European, the same as appears in India, in Sanskrit. The Iryans who came down from the North of Mesopotamia, who went into India and mixed their language becoming Sanskrit, when they came into Europe they bought the pure IE form in and it went over Anglo-Saxon based languages, creating a Germanic language of IE from the Caucasus, Kurgan area and the people who spoke the form of English in Anglo-Saxon or proto-Anglo-Saxon.

Maybe it's the actual CHRISTIAN reckoning of dates that might be out in it. I note the person named Jessos is born 500BC.

Anyway, as I compare what the book says to actual historic migrations of people from the steppes and the Urals, the confusion of the IE language, which is actually not as clear cut as one might think, there is several hypothesis even today going on it. The travel of IE seems to correspond with the chariot.

Where did Athena come from then? Plato says she came in to Greece from Libya at the earliest dawn of Greek civilisation, who is this important deity to the Greeks who has seemingly been around long before the Greek version of Athena?

How did the Etruscans speak, why can't thier language be read?

What is their connection to Troy, the Greeks, the Romans, the Babylonians, Calchas, who directed Agamemnon was obviously an Etruscan haruspice.

To be honest the scholars have got very little answers. It seems the important questions go unanswered and I wouldn't be suprised if that is intentional.

I don't know about you but it all means something to me and like I said, I'm possibly over this thread as my direction has gone elsewhere, but it's been fun and I'll think if I can add anymore to it.

[The Puzzler]

Thinking some more and browsing Alewyn's book some more and the mention of these Phaeacians, the best sailors in the world, now if these Phaeacians, who in fact, seem to be the actual Phocaeans of the Ionian coast in Asia Minor, I think it could actually be that the Phocaeans were the settlers of the Athenians.

No Athenian monument appears prior to around 600BC yet the Phocaeans, who are meant to be from some great Athenian expansion into A.Minor..are in the first naval battle known in history, that is they fight for the Greeks against a coalition of Etruscans and Phoenicians for some control in the Western mediterranean particularly around Corsica.

So, did the actual Athenians come into Greece from the area of the Phocaeans who are really the original Athenians? Possibly from Marseilles with contact with the Etruscans before they became AThenians.

Yes, its so obvious now, this is how Athena is in Crete and Libya, she is with these Phocaeans, who sail into the Aegean and settle in Phocaea. How funny, Homer apaprently from Cos and Herodotus himself is not fromt he Greek mainland is he, he is a Helicarnassus man, in the Ionic area of Asia Minor.

The Phocaeans probably had the language we find on Lemnos, a combo of Phoenician and Etruscan. Which then developed into another language when they moved into the area of the Pelasgians.

The Ionians of Asia Minor, do you really believe they were settled from the Greeks of the mainland Athens?

Not in a million years I say. It went the other way, the Ionians of Ion, Minerva came in from the West, from France, into Asia Minor around Phocaea, which is just on the coast near Lemnos.

Have you ever heard of Diogenes of Sinope? I have heard the Athenians came from Sinope on the Black Sea. I think it is possible the Athenians came from around teh area they say was Troy.

He's a funny guy, a cynic..

He intellectually insulted Plato and lived in a barrel spending his days looking for an honest man...always controversial, he was exiled from his native city of Sinope for defacing currency and headed for Athens where he made quite an impression.

Diogenes of Sinope was always controversial. Exiled from his native city for defacing the currency, he moved to Athens and declared himself a cosmopolitan (in defiance of the prevailing city-state system). He became a disciple of Antisthenes, and made a virtue of extreme poverty, famously begging for a living and sleeping in a tub in the marketplace. He became notorious for his provocative behaviour and philosophical stunts such as carrying a lamp in the daytime, claiming to be looking for an honest man. He regularly argued with Plato, disputing his interpretation of Socrates and sabotaging his lectures. After being captured by pirates and sold into slavery, Diogenes eventually settled in Corinth, where he was befriended by Alexander.

Diogenes was a staunch admirer of Hercules. He believed that virtue was better revealed in action than in theory. His life was a relentless campaign to debunk the social values and institutions of what he saw as a corrupt society.

There are numerous accounts of Diogenes' death. He is alleged variously to have held his breath;[26] to have become ill from eating raw octopus;[27] or to have suffered an infected dog bite.[28] When asked how he wished to be buried, he left instructions to be thrown outside the city wall so wild animals could feast on his body. When asked if he minded this, he said, "Not at all, as long as you provide me with a stick to chase the creatures away!" When asked how he could use the stick since he would lack awareness, he replied "If I lack awareness, then why should I care what happens to me when I am dead?"[29] At the end, Diogenes made fun of people's excessive concern with the "proper" treatment of the dead. The Corinthians erected to his memory a pillar on which rested a dog of Parian marble.[30]

At the Isthmian Games, he lectured to large audiences.[21] It may have been at one of these festivals that Alexander the Great went to meet Diogenes because he was impressed that the philosopher was so highly admired despite having neither money nor power. They reportedly had a long conversation about several topics.[22] The accounts of Plutarch and Diogenes Laërtius recount that they exchanged only a few words: while Diogenes was relaxing in the sunlight in the morning, Alexander, thrilled to meet the famous philosopher, asked if there was any favour he might do for him. Diogenes replied, "Αποσκότισόν με", For now, just stand out of my sunlight". Alexander then declared, "If I were not Alexander, then I should wish to be Diogenes."[23] In another account of the conversation, Alexander found the philosopher looking attentively at a pile of human bones. Diogenes explained, "I am searching for the bones of your father but cannot distinguish them from those of a slave."[24]

Although most of the stories about him living in a tub are located in Athens, there are some accounts of him living in a tub near the Craneum gymnasium in Corinth:

A report that Philip was marching on the town had thrown all Corinth into a bustle; one was furbishing his arms, another wheeling stones, a third patching the wall, a fourth strengthening a battlement, every one making himself useful somehow or other. Diogenes having nothing to do - of course no one thought of giving him a job - was moved by the sight to gather up his philosopher's cloak and begin rolling his tub energetically up and down the Craneum; an acquaintance asked for, and got, the explanation: "I do not want to be thought the only idler in such a busy multitude; I am rolling my tub to be like the rest."[25]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope

I think I would have liked Diogenes.

[Black Hound]

My thanks to you gentleman for posting something that was/is well worth taking the time to read, carefully and without any preconceived notions, that I found both academic in content and discussion. It does make me miss my days in graduate school. Thanks to all participants.

[The Puzzler]

My thanks to you gentleman for posting something that was/is well worth taking the time to read, carefully and without any preconceived notions, that I found both academic in content and discussion. It does make me miss my days in graduate school. Thanks to all participants.