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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


Riaan

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He also sounds a bit like Heracles to me in image with his knotty club.

I know Slim will enjoy this part so if you miss anything Slim, don't miss this...

One symbol on the drum is a miniature sleigh pulled by a tiny reindeer. This image is used by the shaman to ride into the sky, calling to mind Santas Christmas Eve flight. On the other hand, Siberian shamans feed psychedelic mushrooms (Amanita muscaria) to their reindeer. The animals metabolism removes the toxins from the mushrooms but leaves the hallucinogenic properties intact in the urine. The shamans then drink the reindeer pee to fly high. In the drug subculture, the slang term sleigh riding refers to a drugged-out state, while reindeer dust is another term for cocaine.

How about the term 'horny', comes from the aphrodisiac qualities of reindeer horns, Asian pay exhorbitant prices for them.

So, while Santa is getting down and dirty with the Drow elves after butchering the reindeer, he's also flying high in the sky after drinking reindeer pee laced with magic mushroom hallucinogenics...

Lovely - I don't think I'll ever see Santa the same way again... :santa::devil:

I gotta laugh, that Matt Groening, I reckon he knows what's going on...ever seen the episode where Homer tries to get Bart to be man and shoot a reindeer that is penned?

Edited by The Puzzler
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Or how about a really funny song by Weird Al Yankovic, parody on Eminem's song Stan, like the kid is writing to Santa instead of Stan the fan writing to Eminem who never answers cause he's too busy...with all sorts of references to Santa being a sex obsesses slacker thinking about Kate Hudson sitting on his knee and forgetting the presents...lol

...thought that this was supposed to be

the day to deck the halls

but he's forgotten and I'm so sad, I'm so sa-ad... :whistle:

Dear Santa....

Trivia: It was Dido's song Thank You that Eminem sampled for Stan, Dido is in the video as the girlfriend of Stan, then Weird Al does this take off of Stan using the same part of Thank You as the part I just whistled above, changing the lyrics, and Dido is born on December 25th, Christmas Day, I find that one of those weird little co-incidences.

And always remember your child has to deal with odd names you give them:

Dido was born as Florian Cloud de Bounevialle Armstrong[4][5] at St. Mary Abbots hospital in Kensington, London, on Christmas Day 1971.[6] Because she was born on Christmas Day, she also celebrates an "official birthday" on 25 June, following the example of Paddington Bear.[7] Her mother, Clare (née Collins), is a French poet,[5] and her father, William O'Malley Armstrong, was an Irish publisher and former managing director of Sidgwick & Jackson.[8][9] Her older brother, Rowland Constantine O'Malley Armstrong,[10] is better known as record producer Rollo part of the British electronica trio Faithless. Despite their impressive birth names, the pair were known from childhood by the names that are famous now — Dido and Rollo.[5] Dido has made it clear that "Dido" is now her real name and not simply a stage name or nickname.[1][7][11]

Dido was named after the mythical Queen of Carthage. As a child, she had to deal with the ambiguous and unusual nature of her name, which led to her being bullied[1] and even to her pretending to have an ordinary name.[5] As she explains:

To be called one thing and christened another is actually very confusing and annoying. It's one of the most irritating things that my parents did to me.... Florian is a German man's name. That's just mean. To give your child a whole lot of odd names. They were all so embarrassing. ...I thought it was cruel to call me Dido and then expect me to just deal with it.

OK, back to business...

Phinnoi were one of the people living in Scandinavia (Scandia), mentioned by a Greek scientist Ptolemy in his Geographia around 150 CE. Ptolemy mentions them twice, but provides no other information on them.[1]

Today, Phinnoi Φιννοι are most commonly seen as the forefathers of the Sami people, who inhabited most of the Scandinavian peninsula in the times of Ptolemy. The name seems to have been a form of the Germanic word finn, an old common nominator for Finns and the Sami people, both speakers of Finno-Ugric languages.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phinnoi

and yes Abe, I did read the jstor article.

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220px-Odin_and_Frigg_from_Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l_by_Lorenz_Fr%C3%B8lich.jpg

220px-Frigga_%281832%29_from_Die_Helden_und_G%C3%B6tter_des_Nordens%2C_oder_Das_Buch_der_sagen.jpg

Firstly I think Frigg was reincarnated as Hecate of Phrygia, the Mother Goddess.

It appears that it is the Corona above her head, which seems to then cross over to Ariadne, given by Dionysus.

Secondly, from the picture above I can see Odin has a snake wrapped around his staff.

Frigg, wife of Odin is of the Aesir, the word that means the Gods in Etruscan.

There's also an account about how Odin was exiled by the Latin gods at Byzantium:

But the gods, whose chief seat was then at Byzantium, (Asgard), seeing that Odin had tarnished the fair name of godhead by divers injuries to its majesty, thought that he ought to be removed from their society. And they had him not only ousted from the headship, but outlawed and stripped of all worship and honour at home...

and this:

"There were of old certain men versed in sorcery, Thor, namely, and Odin, and many others, who were cunning in contriving marvellous sleights; and they, winning the minds of the simple, began to claim the rank of gods. For, in particular, they ensnared Norway, Sweden and Denmark in the vainest credulity, and by prompting these lands to worship them, infected them with their imposture. The effects of their deceit spread so far, that all other men adored a sort of divine power in them, and, thinking them either gods or in league with gods, offered up solemn prayers to these inventors of sorceries, and gave to blasphemous error the honour due to religion. Some say that the gods, whom our countrymen worshipped, shared only the title with those honoured by Greece or Latium, but that, being in a manner nearly equal to them in dignity, they borrowed from them the worship as well as the name. This must be sufficient discourse upon the deities of Danish antiquity. I have expounded this briefly for the general profit, that my readers may know clearly to what worship in its heathen superstition our country has bowed the knee."

Odin came in with these people and he possibly became Apollo. But that's a bit of a long shot guess. Maybe Asclepius.

Apollo and Poseidon built Troy and also Hecuba, Priams wife, was suppose to have had a son Troilus by Apollo.

Ok, I might budge on the Pelops line being black skinned and maybe be black eyed and sooty faced, like black from ash. Eating children may be a Lapland thing. The black people who ate children could conceivably be associated with the sooty faced dark eyed Lapp people into Phrygia.

Denmark, the sun chariot, not a horse, a reindeer and sled, as Abe pointed out. Sun Gods Helios Medea, the sorceress, a witch.

Shapeshifting is associated with these Lapland Gods so I say all the old shapeshifting Gods like Proteus of Pharos is indeed from the North. He knew how to save bees and also the way to Troy.

The Trojans then appear to have had a link into Egypt and Ethiopia. There is a definte black presence somewhere that connects to Troy.

Sticking with the Lap word, I'm going one further and going to say that these people were the Lapinths, a centaur type people in Thessaly.

The ancient writers, beginning with Tacitus, who was the first Roman author to mention them in his Germania, provide very little information on the Aestii.[2] Although Tacitus never travelled to Magna Germania himself and only recorded information he had obtained from others, the short ethnographic excursus below is the most detailed ancient account of the Aestii that we have:

"Upon the right of the Suebian Sea the Aestian nations reside, who use the same customs and attire with the Suebians; their language more resembles that of Britain. They worship the Mother of the Gods. As the characteristic of their national superstition, they wear the images of wild boars. This alone serves them for arms, this is the safeguard of all, and by this every worshipper of the Goddess is secured even amidst his foes. Rare amongst them is the use of weapons of iron, but frequent that of clubs. In producing of grain and the other fruits of the earth, they labour with more assiduity and patience than is suitable to the usual laziness of Germans. Nay, they even search the deep, and of all the rest are the only people who gather amber. They call it glesum, and find it amongst the shallows and upon the very shore. But, according to the ordinary incuriosity and ignorance of Barbarians, they have neither learnt, nor do they inquire, what is its nature, or from what cause it is produced. In truth it lay long neglected amongst the other gross discharges of the sea; till from our luxury, it gained a name and value. To themselves it is of no use: they gather it rough, they expose it in pieces coarse and unpolished, and for it receive a price with wonder." Germania, chapter XLV.

Apart from describing their idiom as closer to the British language than as must be inferred to the language of the Suebi, Tacitus mentions their term for amber in an apparently Latinised form, glesum (cf. Latvian glīsas). This is the only word of their language recorded from antiquity, but seems to be Germanic in origin (from Gothic glas).[3] In spite of these points, the Aestii are generally considered the ancestors of the later Baltic peoples.

The placement of the Tacitean Aestii is based primarily on their association with amber, a popular luxury item during the life of Tacitus, with known sources at the southeastern coast of the Baltic Sea. The Baltic amber trade, which appears to have extended to the Mediterranean Sea, has been traced by archaeologists back to the Nordic Bronze Age; its major center was located in the region of Sambia.

This trade probably existed prior to the historical Trojan War in the 13th century BCE, as amber is one of the substances in which the palace of Menelaus at Sparta was said to be rich in Homer's The Iliad.

The Aesti, check out this map and enlarge it for interesting look at the area.

When you do enlarge notice under the area of the Aesti, Venedi and Gythones it has note that says this river is called Eridanus by Herodotus.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Hmmmm... 'stuck on 'black people'...did you really read the Jstor article I posted??

I have unsuccesfuly tried to access the JSTOR Archives.

Could anyone tell me how?

I am not at school/university, and i live right now in UAE, in the middle east.

I think JSTOR requires the user to be in school/university or doing research linked with some university or so.

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I have unsuccesfuly tried to access the JSTOR Archives.

Could anyone tell me how?

I am not at school/university, and i live right now in UAE, in the middle east.

I think JSTOR requires the user to be in school/university or doing research linked with some university or so.

I think you have to pay and be a member. I only read the page Abe linked. I can only ever get one page up of a jstor article.

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Marseilles:

The Ligures were in Marseilles when the Phocaeans landed, they are a bit of a mystery, not quite Celtic but like them, they seemed to speak an Indo-European language, they lived on the Rhone in France...

The Ligures (singular Ligus or Ligur; English: Ligurians, Greek: Λίγυες) were an ancient people who gave their name to Liguria, a province of Northern Italy.

According to legend the Phocaean sailor married there a Ligurian girl named Gyptis, I notice 2 things as well, the name Lacydon, of the Cove, reminded me of Lacadaemonians, they moved to Marsallia and settled. It had 2 rocky promontories, also a mention of (by Aeschylus, same guy who told us the people of Apian Hills were dark skinned): Aeschylus represents Hercules as contending with the Ligurians on the stony plains near the mouths of the Rhone

Could these 2 rocky promontories be the Pillars of Heracles before the ones at Cadiz I wonder.

Marseille, the oldest city in France, was founded in 600 BC by Greeks from Phocaea (as mentioned by Thucydides Bk1,13) as a trading port under the name Μασσαλία (Massalia; see also List of traditional Greek place names). The precise circumstances and date of founding remain obscure, but nevertheless a legend survives. Protis, while exploring for a new trading outpost or emporion for Phocaea, discovered the Mediterranean cove of the Lacydon, fed by a freshwater stream and protected by two rocky promontories.[11] Protis was invited inland to a banquet held by the chief of the local Ligurian tribe for suitors seeking the hand of his daughter Gyptis in marriage. At the end of the banquet, Gyptis presented the ceremonial cup of wine to Protis, indicating her unequivocal choice. Following their marriage, they moved to the hill just to the north of the Lacydon; and from this settlement grew Massalia.

According to Plutarch they called themselves Ambrones, but this does not necessarily indicate a relationship with the Ambrones of northern Europe. They were ignorant of their own origin.[2] The name Ligur may have been derived from the same Celtic root as Llyngeswr which means "seaman" or "men of the sea-coast" in the Welsh language.[3]

Aeschylus represents Hercules as contending with the Ligurians on the stony plains near the mouths of the Rhone, and Herodotus speaks of Ligurians inhabiting the country above Massilia (modern Marseilles, founded by the Greeks). Thucydides also speaks of the Ligurians having expelled the Sicanians, an Iberian tribe, from the banks of the river Sicanus, in [2.184] Iberia.[4] The Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax describes the Ligyes (Ligurians) living along the Mediterranean coast from Antion (Antibes) as far as the mouth of the Rhone; then intermingled with the Iberians from the Rhone to Emporion in Spain.[5] People with Ligurian names were living south of Placentia, in Italy, as late as 102 A.D.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ligures

Where was this other Ambrones who might be connected, you never know...

The tribe of the Ambrones (Ancient Greek: Ἄμβρωνες) appears briefly in the Roman sources relating to the 2nd century BC. Their location at the beginning of their brief history was the coast of north Europe, north of the Rhinemouth, in the Frisian Islands, the region now occupied by what is left of the Zuider Zee, and Jutland, which they shared with their close neighbors, the Cimbri and the Teutones.

The North of the Zuider Zee and also in Jutland...

If I look at my map from the Frisian Islands through Heligoland we reach the North Frisian Islands, along the coast of Denmark heading to Jutland.

That's odd, or is it, the same area of the Ambrones is in the Frisian lands. I'd be struggling all night to find this connection because it bought Freya's people down the Rhine to Switzerland, then down the Rhone to Marseilles, just where they said they were in the OLB when the Phocaeans (or however you want to spell it) arrived....from Asia Minor, with new Athenians trying to get a hold in the Western Mediterranean.

As to their ethnicity there is no agreement. While the Teutones were likely Germanic there is evidence that the Ambrones and Cimbri may may have been a different or amalgamated people. Later in their brief and sanguinary course across Europe, the Cimbri were ruled by Boiorix, a Celtic name, "King of the Boii." The amb- in Ambrones is an initial segment of many Celtic tribal names, related to Greek amphi and Latin ambi. The Ambrones followed a Celtic custom in shouting the name of their tribe going into battle. Yet, the Romans considered them Germanic, not Celtic, and assisted the Celts against them. These circumstances suggest a mixed ethnicity, possibly earlier Celtic assimilated to Germanic. However, they did not only come from an area that had been recently Germanized from the North, this was also a time when the Germanic tribes were influenced by Celtic culture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrones

These Phocaeans settled Emporium too. In Spain, the Phocaeans met up with Arganthonios...

Arganthonios (Argantonio in Spanish) was a king of ancient Tartessos (in Andalusia).

This name, or title, appears to be based on the Indo-European word for silver and money *arģ-, found in Celtiberian arkanta, Old Irish airget, Latin argentum, Sanskrit rajatám. Tartessia and all of Iberia was rich in silver. Similar names (e.g. Argantoni) appear in inscriptions of the Roman period in or near former Tartessian territory. A similar name or title Argantoda(nos) is found on silver coinage in Northern Gaul and may have had a meaning akin to "treasurer".[1]

According to the Greek historian Herodotus, King Arganthonios ruled Tartessia for 80 years (from about 625 BC to 545 BC) and lived to be 120 years old.[2] This idea of great age and length of reign may result from a succession of kings using the same name or title. Herodotus says that Arganthonios warmly welcomed the first Greeks to reach Iberia, a ship carrying Phocaeans, and urged them fruitlessly to settle in Iberia. Hearing that the Medes were becoming a dominant force in the neighbourhood of the Phocaeans, he gave the latter money to build a defensive wall about their town. Herodotus comments that "he must have given with a bountiful hand, for the town is many furlongs in circuit".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arganthonios

Maybe Argos is named for it's treasury at Mycenae. Arg - silver, treasure, treasury, money

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Agamemnon or is it Arg a Memnon - King of the Money, Treasury of Atreus in Argos.

Memnon, a son of Eos, the Dawn, seemingly East and Tithonius, from Troy, who settled Susa. Apparently the Aethiopes are mentioned in the list of Persian satrapies but only seemed to pay tribute biannually.

Some good info here: http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/History/hakhamaneshian/ethiopia_achaemenid.htm

When the Persians were in Egypt and Ethiopia, the transfer of Memnon may have occurred back into Ethiopia.

The thing is, are these Eastern Ethiopians actually Indians from Hindu Cush, Hindu Shiva people, they might even be the people who moved into the Plains of Shinar from the East and built the Tower. Then they went into Ethiopia when the Persians did, looking quite the same.

Is this the confusion between Dionysus being from India or Ethiopia too and the 2 Mt Meru's.

I'm a bit suss on this 'Christian reckoning' timeframe.

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Before I go to bed I forgot to point out something of utmost importance to me in following this around, did you notice on the side of Frigg's chair in the 1st picture, she has a swan on it?

Here it again to save you scrolling back:

220px-Odin_and_Frigg_from_Vaf%C3%BEr%C3%BA%C3%B0nism%C3%A1l_by_Lorenz_Fr%C3%B8lich.jpg

and I think I forgot to mention it is the Aesti I identify with the people ofthe OLB who only collect amber.

"Upon the right of the Suebian Sea the Aestian nations reside, who use the same customs and attire with the Suebians; their language more resembles that of Britain. They worship the Mother of the Gods. As the characteristic of their national superstition, they wear the images of wild boars. This alone serves them for arms, this is the safeguard of all, and by this every worshipper of the Goddess is secured even amidst his foes. Rare amongst them is the use of weapons of iron, but frequent that of clubs. In producing of grain and the other fruits of the earth, they labour with more assiduity and patience than is suitable to the usual laziness of Germans. Nay, they even search the deep, and of all the rest are the only people who gather amber. They call it glesum, and find it amongst the shallows and upon the very shore. But, according to the ordinary incuriosity and ignorance of Barbarians, they have neither learnt, nor do they inquire, what is its nature, or from what cause it is produced. In truth it lay long neglected amongst the other gross discharges of the sea; till from our luxury, it gained a name and value. To themselves it is of no use: they gather it rough, they expose it in pieces coarse and unpolished, and for it receive a price with wonder." Germania, chapter XLV.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesti

Edited by The Puzzler
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Answering your posts is like reviewing a book.

lol I know, I'm sorry, I feel like I'm writing a book, maybe one day...

I post for a release as I research.

I just want to clarify some of the parts of the OLB book now I have got a grasp on who is who and where is where and who went where...

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lol I know, I'm sorry, I feel like I'm writing a book, maybe one day...

I post for a release as I research.

I just want to clarify some of the parts of the OLB book now I have got a grasp on who is who and where is where and who went where...

But you are not clarifying anything; to me it's like you grasp at anything vaguely related to what the OLB is all about.

Do you realize that if what I have said is true - and I am convinced it is - about the Middelsee being nothing but the "Middelsee" in Friesland, then all of your posts about whatever will be of no use at all, and nothing but a waste of your time and energy?

Tell me please, why would Frya's people call the Mediterannean Sea the "Middle Sea"? They had no reason whatsoever, right? Unless Africa was part of their empire, which it wasn't.

The Romans had a reason to call it the "Middle Sea", because it was located in the middle of their empire.

http://www.bordine.nl/leeuwarden.htm

Approx. 1200 A D. Leeuwarden was a harbour city, connected to the North sea, by the “Middelsee” or “Bordine”

GESCHIEDENIS_kaartfriesland.jpg

The "Krekalander".... Ottema thought they were the Greeks.

Well, anyone familiar with ancient maps of The Netherlands will know we had LOTS of creeks (not Greeks) a couple of thousand years ago.

And you know where? Near where those votive altars of Nehalennia were dragged up from the sea in the 17th century and later.

And, btw, why do I not read ANYTHING about the Romans in the OLB?

It's supposed to date from 1200 AD ("Okke, my son", and so on), so these OLB people must have known about the Romans, right?

Puzz, you can drag up as much as you want, but to me the OLB is nothing but a hilarious joke, using local legends and topography, mixed with the extensive knowledge of ancient history the writers - the 19th century writers - had of Latin, Greek and Egyptian myths and language.

Whatever you posted, they knew about back then.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Many, but not all, are convinced beyond any shadow of a doubt that the Oera Linda Book is a hoax. Nevertheless, please consider the following few randomly selected facts (of many):

1. The Oera Linda Book(OLB)(1867) claims that their civilization in Europe was destroyed in 2193 BC by a massive natural disaster. The book mentions earthquakes, volcanic activity, fires, tsunamis, etc. that lasted for 3 years. Archaeologists and historians agree that the Old Kingdom in Egypt came to an end in ca. 2200 BC; the Harrapan (Indus Valley) civilization came to an end in ca.2200 BC; The Hongsan Culture in China came to an end in ca 2200 BC and Professor Harvey Weiss stated that the Akkadian Empire in Syria was destroyed in 2193 BC. In addition, the last Mammoths on Wrangle Island in the Arctic became extinct at the same time. In fact, carbon dating on one of the Mammoths indicated that the animal died about 2192 BC. Non of this information was available 140 years ago when the OLB surfaced.(Except possibly for the Old Kingdom in Egypt)

2. The OLB stated that before the disaster "the sun rose higher". This would indicate that they were closer to the equator. The book of Enoch (Noah's Great-Grandfather) stated that the "pillar of the earth shook from its foundation" and "the earth was violently shaken and became inclined" Various ancient scribes described the unmistakable effects of a cosmic impact.(Ipuwer, Neferti, etc.) Very prominent scientists such as Dr. Dallas Abbott et al have actually found evidence of this in 2005 (Please check the "Burckle Crater")

3. Professor Timo Niroma , on his website “The Third Millennium BC¬ (3100-2100 BC)” states “During the years 2200-2100 BC the saltines of the soil rose markedly, possibly because of sea floods” at the time of the destruction of Akkadian Sumer (present day Syria). He also states:

“ Mesopotamia and other above-mentioned places were not the only victims of the 2200 BC event. As far away as in China, the Hongsan culture fell in pieces at this same time. This, if not anything else, is an indication of the mighty character of the event, and bolsters us to consider it as global. ”

4. The OLB tells the story of a "Sea King" (not a monarch) by the name of Minnos that settled on Crete in ca. 1630 BC. In the 19th century nobody even knew that a "Minoan Civilization" ever existed. Archaeological work during the 20th century confirms everything that the OLB stated regarding the Middle Minoan period - even the date of ca 1600 BC. This date was only established in the latter half of the 20th century.

5. The OLB mentions the destruction of Troy in 1188 BC. In the beginning of the 21st century (140 years after the OLB) archaeologists concluded that Hellenic Troy (Troy VIIa) was destroyed in ca 1188 BC. In the 19th century Troy was still regarded as a myth.

6. The OLB claims that “Nef Tunis” from Frisia founded Tyre (in Lebanon) in 2000 BC. The Bible refers to tyre as having been “inhabited by seafaring men” and “inhabited from across the sea” (Afrikaans Translation)

7. The OLB described how some of them was expelled from Athens in ca 1550 BC and fled to India. This ties up exactly with the Avesta and Rig-Veda scriptures(Dating back to ca. 1500 BC). This also exactly the time when iron working commenced in India, (and the Caste System!)

8. During the 1980's archaeologists discovered naturally mummified Caucasian bodies in the Tarim Basin in Western China. They dated these mummies to ca 1500 BC.

I have tested the OLB against genetics, linguistics, theology, volcanism, climatology and many other modern discoveries and information that was not available in the 19th century and in every case the OLB was vindicated. Even ancient scribes such as Homer, Tacitus, Herodotus, Arrian, Ovid, Josephus and others support the claims made in the OLB.

The OLB was essentially declared a hoax by linguists who felt that the language was too modern. That is about the same as saying that the King James Bible is a hoax because the Jews did not speak Victorian English. The original translator of the OLB, Dr. Ottema, was a very prominent linguist and he believed to the day of his death that the book was authentic.

The Dutch rejects the book (understandably) because it was abused by the Nazis and, still today, by neo-Nazi groups and others; but then, so is the Bible. It still does not detract from the historical value of the book.

People like to quote Wikipedia as the “ultimate truth”. Wiki can, however, only publish what is out there at any given time.

Remember, the Plate Tectonics Theory was ridiculed for 70 years before it was accepted and it took 10 years before scientists accepted that the dinosaurs could have been wiped out by an asteroid impact. There was a time when people thought they did the world a favour by burning anybody who said that the world was not flat. The list goes on.

I am convinced that we are talking about a hoax here but it is definitely not the Oera Linda Book and yes, you guessed correctly, I am the idiot that wrote “Survivors of the Great Tsunami”

Yea and stuff! Stick that in your hat and eat it!!!

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Yea and stuff! Stick that in your hat and eat it!!!

Who are you addressing?

Be a bit more specific, if that's within the boundaries of your intelligence.

It's easy to blurt out things, but it's not that easy - for some - to spend more words on some topic.

Did you even bother to read the whole thread?

I guess not.

Personally I really hate these kind of 'snapshot' remarks, and most aren't even funny at all. Nothing but a fart.

Several people here have done their best to contribute on topic information to this thread.

Can you?

.

Edited by Abramelin
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But you are not clarifying anything; to me it's like you grasp at anything vaguely related to what the OLB is all about.

Do you realize that if what I have said is true - and I am convinced it is - about the Middelsee being nothing but the "Middelsee" in Friesland, then all of your posts about whatever will be of no use at all, and nothing but a waste of your time and energy?

Tell me please, why would Frya's people call the Mediterannean Sea the "Middle Sea"? They had no reason whatsoever, right? Unless Africa was part of their empire, which it wasn't.

The Romans had a reason to call it the "Middle Sea", because it was located in the middle of their empire.

http://www.bordine.nl/leeuwarden.htm

Approx. 1200 A D. Leeuwarden was a harbour city, connected to the North sea, by the Middelsee or Bordine

GESCHIEDENIS_kaartfriesland.jpg

The "Krekalander".... Ottema thought they were the Greeks.

Well, anyone familiar with ancient maps of The Netherlands will know we had LOTS of creeks (not Greeks) a couple of thousand years ago.

And you know where? Near where those votive altars of Nehalennia were dragged up from the sea in the 17th century and later.

And, btw, why do I not read ANYTHING about the Romans in the OLB?

It's supposed to date from 1200 AD ("Okke, my son", and so on), so these OLB people must have known about the Romans, right?

Puzz, you can drag up as much as you want, but to me the OLB is nothing but a hilarious joke, using local legends and topography, mixed with the extensive knowledge of ancient history the writers - the 19th century writers - had of Latin, Greek and Egyptian myths and language.

Whatever you posted, they knew about back then.

.

What I was trying to clarify was the part in the book about Marseilles and how they (Freys people)came down it and then the Phocaeans landed, because in history, the Phocaeans do land there and it is the Greek entry to Western Europe c. 700BC. So if the actualy people the Phocaeans arrived to are the same as the people up near Frisia, as the Romans have recorded, it would seem conceivable that the OLB could be telling a truth here.

Second, if Palm Land is in the Siwa Oasis, NOT Phoenicia, it starts to seem like the early Athenians of Ionia, before any mainland activity have to connection into Egypt and Libya that can be seen in myths like when the Argonauts land in Libya off course home from Colchis, yeah right, when Menelaus goes looking for Helen in Troy and how Ammon may have come into Greece, Zeus himself, from the Siwa Oasis and been given an Indo-European name in Greece.

The Middle Sea may have transferred from one area to the other, I have a few ideas but tricky I know.

I hear you, I really do and after 50 pages or so here I am still on the fence.

Edited by The Puzzler
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What I was trying to clarify was the part in the book about Marseilles and how they (Freys people)came down it and then the Phocaeans landed, because in history, the Phocaeans do land there and it is the Greek entry to Western Europe c. 700BC. So if the actualy people the Phocaeans arrived to are the same as the people up near Frisia, as the Romans have recorded, it would seem conceivable that the OLB could be telling a truth here.

Second, if Palm Land is in the Siwa Oasis, NOT Phoenicia, it starts to seem like the early Athenians of Ionia, before any mainland activity have to connection into Egypt and Libya that can be seen in myths like when the Argonauts land in Libya off course home from Colchis, yeah right, when Menelaus goes looking for Helen in Troy and how Ammon may have come into Greece, Zeus himself, from the Siwa Oasis and been given an Indo-European name in Greece.

The Middle Sea may have transferred from one area to the other, I have a few ideas but tricky I know.

I hear you, I really do and after 50 pages or so here I am still on the fence.

Let me put it in different words:

You try to prove the validity of the OLB by quoting sources that were available to the 19th century writers of the OLB.

They really knew about ancient Greek, Egyptian, and Latin legends. And they used the writings of 16th and 17th century Frisian historians - who wrote in Latin - who were famous for their fabulations about Frisian history.

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Well, I guess I'm finished here then. :yes:

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Well, I guess I'm finished here then. :yes:

Heh, I should guess not... you have Alewyn's book, so I expect at least something more, lol.

Well, then it's up to me, and I don't mind at all.

Puzz, I once told you in some Atlantis thread that whatever you got from it, at least you would have learned a lot about ancient Greek history.

And I have that same feeling about ancient Dutch/Frisian history.

I remember highschool and how boring I always thought of Dutch history lessons.

I was wrong: just because of this thread I learned things in a way that is much more interesting than any teacher in school could have told me.

--

OK, I found some titbits that are interesting enough to post here, and on topic too, wow.

The Oera Linda book was written/published at the end of the 19th century, and if it had talked about something that was not known by then, then that would be proof of it's authenticity, right?

So that got me thinking about Nehalennia again.

Votive altars dedicated to this goddess were found near Domburg, Zeeland ( a province in the south west of The Netherlands), in total several hundreds. That, together with life sized statues of Neptune (whose image was often depicted at the sides of those altars), and also Roman like columns (although I could not find any pic of those).

Much of those finds were lost in the fire that hit the main church of Domburg in the 19th century,and all we have now are accurate copies on paper, but... lots of new finds came up in 1970.

Now one of those new finds, a votive altar, not only mentioned Nehalennia, but also the name of the city, "Ganuenta".

As far as I know no Ganuenta is mentioned in the OLB.

Why is that so interesting? Well, read this:

-1-

It may seem strange that the Colijnsplaat altars were discovered in the sea, but it must be noted that the Zeeland archipelago did not exist in the Roman age. In those days, the river Scheldt had its estuary north of Colijnsplaat, and modern archaeologists assume that the altars at Domburg and Colijnsplaat were part of two sanctuaries, which belonged to the Frisiavones, the tribe that lived in ancient Zeeland. Colijnsplaat may or may not be identical to their capital Ganuenta.

http://www.viknesweb.nl/viknes-schepennl.htm

-2-

The only place name we know on the coast is Ganuenta, which must have been located in what is now the province of Zeeland. This place, whose name appears on Peutinger’s map, might have been the capital of the Frisiavones. It is thought that the sea might have washed away the remains of Ganuenta, which could well have been situated near Colijnsplaat or Domburg. Zeeland looked very different in those days, as the majority of the province was land. The Scheldt issued into the sea to the north of Colijnsplaat back then. We do know that the Scheldt estuary was an important point of departure for ships setting sail for Britannia. Many merchants dedicated an altar to the goddess Nehalennia here, in the hope that she would ensure them safe passage across the stormy North Sea. There must have been a population centre at such an important transport hub, but whether this was Ganuenta is open to speculation.

http://www2.rgzm.de/Transformation/Nederland/Engfiles/Texts_E/DutchVici_E.html

-3-

On many of these altars the goddess

herself is represented in flowing garments, either sitting

with a dog beside her and a basket of fruits on her lap or

sometimes standing with one foot on the prow of a vessel.

The shallow depression or hearth (focus) often carved on

the top of Roman altars is usually replaced by an

‘offering table’ on which are set either fruits or loaves.

Domburg, where coastal erosion exposed the remains of

her temple in the 17th century, has produced some 27

dedications to Nehalennia and five altars to Jupiter and

Neptune (Hondius-Crone 1955). The site near Colijns-

plaat, very probably the ancient Ganuenta, or perhaps

Ganuentum (Stuart & Bogaers 1971, no 27; Bogaers &

Gysseling 1972b) was located by the chance discovery of

two altars brought up by trawling nets in 1970. Within

the next twelve month a further 122 altars were recovered

in a planned campaign of trawling and diving, many now

illegible, but all probably dedicated to Nehalennia

(Bogaers 1971b;

Stuart & Bogaers 1971).

http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/cbaresrep/pdf/024/02406001.pdf

-4-

Frisiavones

The Frisiavones (also Frisævones or, to distinguish more explicitly from the Frisians, Frisiabones) is a Germanic tribe usually considered as a southern subdivision of the Frisians that came into the scope of Roman domination but mentioned by Pliny the Elder as being another tribe next to the Frisii.

According to inscriptions found in Roman Britain (dated between 103-249 AD)[1] the Frisiavones in the Roman Army are synonym to Frisians. The Byzantian historian Procopius († 562 AD) referred to Frisians as "Phrissones", a transcription of Frisiavones, being one amongst three tribes dwelling in Britain. [2] However, in Latin sources Frisians were referred to normally as Frisii. Book IV of Pliny's encyclopedic compilation Naturalis Historia mentions this tribe at two different occasions, not necessarily related one to the other, thus raising questions about the Frisians being the only people known as such and being exclusively related to the traditional inhabitants of modern Frisia. So far all knowledge on this issue is based on deduction.

In his Germania the Roman historian Tacitus mentions two different sections of Frisians, maioribus minoribusque frisii, (major and minor Frisians), both having settled downstream the Rhine.[3] However, it is assumed the Frisian people only sought to dwell these westernmost parts of the rivermouth after the Batavian revolt of Julius Civilis (70 AD), when this part of the delta was abandoned by the Canninefates. This seems to be in contradiction to the chronology of Naturalis Historia, that has been offered to emperor Titus Flavius Vespasianus II only in 77 AD. thus rendering too little time for a new people to originate from Frisians by this migration alone.

Striking in Pliny's account is the similarity between the two tribenames Frisiavones and Frisii. This could be due to coincidence, to tribal relationship or to a similar etymology. Since the Frisians should be counted among the Ingvaeones, first mentioned by Pytheas (as "Guiones", 4th century BC), that dwelled the shores of the Nordsea, thus - according to Tacitus - being the alleged worshippers of god Ing; and since god "Fro" (Old Nordic "Freyr") is often taken as a synonym to Ingus, a similar "Fro"-cult could be considered for being the common origin to both tribenames.

A clue to the geographic location could be the order of reference by Pliny. Frisiavones are mentioned first at paragraph 101, in this order: Frisii, Chauci, Frisiavones, Sturii and Marsacii. In this list only the Frisii (normally read as "Frisians") and Chauci are sufficiently known form other sources. About the Marsacii there are some indications they dwelled in the south-west of the Netherlands, and they might have been close relatives to the Morini. The identification of the Sturii with the ancient Frisian town of Stavoren is a mere guess. Since the name Frisiavones appears several times as a synonym to Frisian, modern writers seem to have an intuitive preference to identify them with the Frisian section mentioned bij Tacitus that went south-west later on, thus showing - if anything - how the acceptance of both names (Frisii and Frisiavones) moved away from any straightforward interpretation of any such order of location provided by Pliny. Otherwise, read in order from west to east (opposite the order one might expect here from Pliny) would locate the Frisiavones and the Sturgii and Marsacii as well east from the Chauci. However, so far east would be across the river Elbe, where the geographical knowledge of Romans is known to be blurred. Tacitus could remember the Cimbri dwelling there, a tribe impossible to slip Roman memory after having been inflicted near defeat by them at 113 BC, but otherwise he seems to have considered the whole coastal area from Elbe to Sweden as interconnected and inhabited by tribes impossible to locate exactly. To mention those unknown tribes would be impossible to reconcile with the absence in that region of more important tribes known by Tacitus, like the Anglii.

However, normally Pliny consider geography and the people he mentions from east to west. Thus not the Frisii, but Frisiavones would equate the people that nowadays are well-known all over by the name Frisians. Indeed Frisiavones can be read several times in Roman sources and inscriptions as a synonym to Frisians. Thus the question could even be reversed: Who were the Frisii? Like Tacitus, Pliny wouldn't have heard anything more but rumours about the people dwelling well behind the Roman frontiers and well behind tribes they waged war with. If, like nowadays, indeed any people with a name similar to Frisii already existed far back in ancient times dwelling in any stretch of land across the Elbe, no more can be held against this but the general concept that though Frisian influence might at a time have reached much farther to the east, the central base of Frisian power has always been much more to the west.

A second reference by Pliny to Frisiavones, in paragraph 106, located the people in the middle of the (most of al) Celtic tribes in nowadays Belgium. Here Plinius take pains to explicitly mention the people west to east, thus placing Frisiavones probably somewhere nowadays Limburg in between the Sunuci and the Baetasi. This new location remains shrouded by mysteries and no certaincy exists whether this Frisiavones are indeed the same people or rather a seccion that migrated to the south.

In more serious modern writings straightforward reference to Frisiavones or other synonyms to distinguish from other Frisians tends to be avoided. More important is the growing awareness that the Frisian people made up an important share of a wider "Frisian" culture or melting pot[4], in which various neighbouring and kindred tribes participated whose names history couldn't always deliver to our knowledge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisiavones

Sooo, a main Frisian/Frisavonian city was mentioned on those votive altars, a city also mentioned on an old Roman map.

But nothing about that in the OLB.

==

Where did all this take place?

Here:

ingressies.jpg

I hope you recognize one word, "Kreek"....

Not "Greek", sorry.

.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Nice research.

Near the southern mouth of the Rhine and the Scheldt there are seven islands, named after Fryas seven virgins of the week. In the middle of one island is the city of Walhallagara (Middelburg), and on the walls of this city the following history is inscribed. Above it are the words Read, learn, and watch.

Five hundred and sixty-three years after the submersion of Atlandthat is, 1600 years before Christa wise town priestess presided here, whose name was Min-ervacalled by the sailors Nyhellenia. This name was well chosen, for her counsels were new and clear above all others.

Wallacra might have become Middelburg by 900 years later.

So, what? You think instead of it saying Walhallagara, it should say Ganuenta? Just clarify so I can answer properly.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Kreka was the wife of Attila the Hun weirdly enough.

Where is it on Peutinger's map? I have just scanned it for half and hour, not that I can read it, but I can see Patavia, which I assume is Batavia. So, I'm looking there, I see Belgium under it but then Franci is above it to the West...?? None of those little words I can make out near Batavia look like Ganuenta to me.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/TabulaPeutingeriana.jpg You can zoom in some on the area.

What I do notice in Britian is Belgae Brige.

These are the Grevetmen under whose direction this book is composed:—

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

The Saxman Storo, Sytia’s husband; Grevetman over the Hoogefennen and Wouden. Nine times he was chosen as duke or heerman (commander). The towns Buda and Manna-garda-forda are under his care.

Abêlo, Jaltia’s husband; Grevetman over the Zuiderflylanden. He was three times heerman. The towns Aken, Liudburg, and Katsburg are under his care.

Enoch, Dywcke’s husband; Grevetman over Westflyland and Texel. He was chosen nine times for sea-king. Waraburg, Medeasblik, Forana, and Fryasburg are under his care.

Foppe, Dunroo’s husband; Grevetman over the seven islands. He was five times sea-king. The town Walhallagara is under his care.

Walhallagara here is the most Southern of the cities any of these Grevetman has under their care. It must have been when it was an island as it said it was, since there is not 7 islands now and that one in particular has been attached to mainland now.

Oostelijk Flevoland on my modern map I say is Ostflyland. Adela and Apol live here, Linda. Adela of Linda. The Linda people who wrote the book. In todays Ijsselmeer. Right near Texel. Waddenzee. So, only one Grevetman is responsible for the area around Walhallagra, a possible name before Walcheren.

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But you are not clarifying anything; to me it's like you grasp at anything vaguely related to what the OLB is all about.

Do you realize that if what I have said is true - and I am convinced it is - about the Middelsee being nothing but the "Middelsee" in Friesland, then all of your posts about whatever will be of no use at all, and nothing but a waste of your time and energy?

Tell me please, why would Frya's people call the Mediterannean Sea the "Middle Sea"? They had no reason whatsoever, right? Unless Africa was part of their empire, which it wasn't.

The Romans had a reason to call it the "Middle Sea", because it was located in the middle of their empire.

.

How about that people usually name a new area after an old area of their own as they move around...

If they did have the Middel Sea back then in Friesland and they moved down to the edge of the Mediterranean and started sailing it also, it wouldn't suprise me they also named it the Middle Sea.

It's quite interesting that:

The term Mediterranean derives from the Latin word mediterraneus, meaning "in the middle of earth" or "between lands" (medius, "middle, between" + terra, "land, earth"). This is on account of the sea's intermediary position between the continents of Africa and Europe. The Greek name Mesogeios (Μεσόγειος), is similarly from μέσο, "middle" + γη, "land, earth").[4]

The Mediterranean Sea has been known by a number of alternative names throughout human history. For example the Romans commonly called it Mare Nostrum (Latin, "Our Sea"). Occasionally it was known as Mare Internum by (Sallust, Jug. 17).

In the Bible, it was primarily known as the "Great Sea" (Num. 34:6,7; Josh. 1:4, 9:1, 15:47; Ezek. 47:10,15,20), or simply "The Sea" (1 Kings 5:9; comp. 1 Macc. 14:34, 15:11); however, it has also been called the "Hinder Sea", due to its location on the west coast of the Holy Land, and therefore behind a person facing the east, as referenced in the Old Testament, sometimes translated as "Western Sea", (Deut. 11:24; Joel 2:20). Another name was the "Sea of the Philistines" (Exod. 23:31), from the people occupying a large portion of its shores near the Israelites.

In Modern Hebrew, it has been called Hayam Hatikhon (הַיָּם הַתִּיכוֹן), "the middle sea", a literal adaptation of the German equivalent Mittelmeer. In Turkish, it is known as Akdeniz, "the white sea". In modern Arabic, it is known as al-Baḥr al-Abyaḍ al-Mutawassiṭ (البحر الأبيض المتوسط), "the White Middle Sea," while in Islamic and older Arabic literature, it was referenced as Baḥr al-Rūm (بحر الروم), or "the Roman/Byzantine Sea."

The Modern Hebrew name for it is the middle sea, a LITERAL adaptation of the German equivalent Mittelmeer.

The White Sea...never knew the Med. as White...there is a White Sea in the Baltic, I imagine all the white wash and ice makes it all white looking.

So, the people who do call the Mediterranean The Middle Sea get it from the German term for Middle Sea - Mittelmeer - why would that be unless they knew the Mediterranean in the same context as the Germans...strange.

I'll leave it at that for now.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Nice research.

Near the southern mouth of the Rhine and the Scheldt there are seven islands, named after Frya’s seven virgins of the week. In the middle of one island is the city of Walhallagara (Middelburg), and on the walls of this city the following history is inscribed. Above it are the words “Read, learn, and watch.”

Five hundred and sixty-three years after the submersion of Atland—that is, 1600 years before Christ—a wise town priestess presided here, whose name was Min-erva—called by the sailors Nyhellenia. This name was well chosen, for her counsels were new and clear above all others.

Wallacra might have become Middelburg by 900 years later.

So, what? You think instead of it saying Walhallagara, it should say Ganuenta? Just clarify so I can answer properly.

Walhallagara was nothing else but the Island of Walcheren, and it's accepted etymology is nothing like 'Walhallagara' at all. That is just a concocting to make it look old, and having something to do with Valhalla...

Middelburg come into existence long after Walcheren got his name, so we are not talking about Middelburg.

What I try to say is that there is no mention of "Ganuenta" in the OLB, but it is thought it was an important city/harbour even before Roman times.

And the reason it wasn't mentioned in the OLB is because the 19th century authors of the OLB had never heard of it because the name of the city wasn't known until 1970, at least not as any capital of 'a' Frisian people living near/on Walcheren.

.

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How about that people usually name a new area after an old area of their own as they move around...

If they did have the Middel Sea back then in Friesland and they moved down to the edge of the Mediterranean and started sailing it also, it wouldn't suprise me they also named it the Middle Sea.

It's quite interesting that:

The term Mediterranean derives from the Latin word mediterraneus, meaning "in the middle of earth" or "between lands" (medius, "middle, between" + terra, "land, earth"). This is on account of the sea's intermediary position between the continents of Africa and Europe. The Greek name Mesogeios (Μεσόγειος), is similarly from μέσο, "middle" + γη, "land, earth").[4]

The Mediterranean Sea has been known by a number of alternative names throughout human history. For example the Romans commonly called it Mare Nostrum (Latin, "Our Sea"). Occasionally it was known as Mare Internum by (Sallust, Jug. 17).

In the Bible, it was primarily known as the "Great Sea" (Num. 34:6,7; Josh. 1:4, 9:1, 15:47; Ezek. 47:10,15,20), or simply "The Sea" (1 Kings 5:9; comp. 1 Macc. 14:34, 15:11); however, it has also been called the "Hinder Sea", due to its location on the west coast of the Holy Land, and therefore behind a person facing the east, as referenced in the Old Testament, sometimes translated as "Western Sea", (Deut. 11:24; Joel 2:20). Another name was the "Sea of the Philistines" (Exod. 23:31), from the people occupying a large portion of its shores near the Israelites.

In Modern Hebrew, it has been called Hayam Hatikhon (הַיָּם הַתִּיכוֹן), "the middle sea", a literal adaptation of the German equivalent Mittelmeer. In Turkish, it is known as Akdeniz, "the white sea". In modern Arabic, it is known as al-Baḥr al-Abyaḍ al-Mutawassiṭ (البحر الأبيض المتوسط), "the White Middle Sea," while in Islamic and older Arabic literature, it was referenced as Baḥr al-Rūm (بحر الروم), or "the Roman/Byzantine Sea."

The Modern Hebrew name for it is the middle sea, a LITERAL adaptation of the German equivalent Mittelmeer.

The White Sea...never knew the Med. as White...there is a White Sea in the Baltic, I imagine all the white wash and ice makes it all white looking.

So, the people who do call the Mediterranean The Middle Sea get it from the German term for Middle Sea - Mittelmeer - why would that be unless they knew the Mediterranean in the same context as the Germans...strange.

I'll leave it at that for now.

The Frisian 'Middel Sea' was nothing but a quite narrow and small inlet that split Friesland in half. If the Frisians did indeed sail into the Mediterannean, they would no doubt have given it a different name, like Wralda's Sea or something. Or else it would have been like me calling the Himalayas "Dune", after the only hills I ever saw in The Netherlands, the dunes. Well, maybe I would as a joke, but not as a serious name.

The Frisians knew about the Baltic, or 'East Sea', a sea which is a lot more comparable to the size of the Mediterannean than their own little backyard 'puddle' the Middel Sea, so 'East Sea' would have been a lot more suitable name. Or maybe even better, "South Sea".

The name "Mediterannean" is nothing but Latin for 'in the middle of the lands', the Roman lands around the Med.

After that that name 'sea in the Middle of the lands' got transferred to Germanic languages, that's during Roman times and also much later, as 'sea in the middle', or Mittel Meer. Many German tribes served in the Romam army, but I doubt they would have called the Mediterannean "Mare Nostrum", because 'nostrum' means 'us', like in 'us Romans'. I think they just kept the part that said 'middle'.

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Just an extra to my former post: many of the countries you said used some form of "Middle Sea" were once part of the Roman Empire. So it's not that strange that they used that name for te Mediterannean, like Germanic tribes did.

-

The Peutinger's Map, lol: you searched for half an hour to find this "Ganuenta", I searched till my eyeballs popped out.

I was in a hurry with that post about the Peutinger map, and had no time to do what I always advise others to do, and that's to check one's sources.

Well, I now think that the one who wrote it connected some loose ends, came to a 'conclusion', and posted it like it was fact.

But I found something else.

Place names

inscription Ganuenta, Ganuentae Registration Ganuenta, Ganuentae

Tabula Imperii Romani indicated in. M-31, 91-2 [ 1 ] M-31, 91-2 [1]

indicated in LAN, 356. [2]

Placename obscure: place / place near / on the mouth / estuary Ganuenta could contain a Germanic form of a Celtic word [3] as a mouth, estuary [4] , then, could come from an old • Genu-venta: 'places near a mouth'.

The real situation is indeed close to an estuary, and therefore the semantics is appropriate. [5] .

http://translate.google.nl/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Ffr.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGanuenta&sl=fr&tl=en

I tried to find some copy of that "Tabula Imperii Romanii", but failed.

Don't forget: the Peutinger Map is a medieval copy of an ancient Roman map, and maybe a copy of this "Tabula Imperii Romanii".

I also found other sources who assumed that "Tablis" - which is indeed on the Peutinger map - was the 'civitas Frisiavones'.

--

Ganuenta is only known from an inscription on one of the votive altars dedicated to the ancient goddess Nehalennia, which were discovered in 1970-1974 in the Eastern Scheldt estuary, about 1½ kilometers northwest of Colijnsplaat. It has been argued that Ganuenta was the capital of the Frisiavones, but it is possibkle that it was in fact in Menapian territories.

As the waters of the Scheldt and the sea have swallowed up this area, hardly anything is known about this place, which may once have been an important international port.

No votive altar can be dated after 227, and archaeologists have discovered almost nothing from Late Antiquity in this part of the Netherlands. This suggests that the site and the area were abandoned at some moment in the mid-third century. There is indeed evidence for changes in the ecological system, although ideas about large transgressions ("Duinkerke 2") have now been abandoned.

In itself, the ecological changes would not have been disastrous, but the inhabitants of the coastal region of Germania Inferior had been extracting salty peat from the mud flats, which was used to produce salt. The natural defense against the water had disappeared, and the sea could now easily destroy the coast.

http://www.livius.org/ga-gh/germania/ganuenta.html

-

Roman ship on a relief from Ganuenta (Rijksmuseum van Oudheden, Leiden):

ship.jpg

-

Three earthen ringwalll burghs:

Zuidburg ("Souburg")

Middenburg ("Middelburg")

Duinburg ("Domburg")

http://www.xs4all.nl/~pcvdklis/zonnehove/domburg/domburg.htm

http://www.livius.org/ra-rn/rhine/rhine.html?iframe=true&width=100%&height=100%

--

Back then the harbour/port near Domburg/Westhove was called "Walichrum", or "Walacra"

oudheidkaartje.jpg

1 = Temple of Nehalennia

2 = Dwelling of the Goths (the 'Gotthen')

3 en 4 = Early medieval burial grounds/graveyards

5 = Ditches )on the beach) in clay and peat

6 = Ringwall burg of Domburg

.

=

Temple of Nehalennia (at diferent dates: top is near present - 1970 - , bottom is 3d century AD):

20050427223423235_2.jpg

http://www.nehalenniatempel.nl/article.php?story=20050427223423235

--

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Helinium is the latinized name of the rivermouth at the confluence of Rhine and Meuse that variously is located near the Dutch towns Oostvoorne or Hellevoetsluis. In Latin literature the name was mentioned only one time by Pliny the Elder ("Marsaciorum, quae sternuntur inter Helinium ac Flevum", Liber IV) to describe the swath of land that globally delimits the modern Dutch region of Holland, allegedly inhabited by "Marsaci". However, both river mouths are used here in accusative case and thus correspond in nominative case to Helinius and Flevus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helinium

I have posted some fancy thoughts about the origin of the name "Nehalennia", but maybe I made too much of it: "Helinium" is the Latinized name of a rivermouth, and so on. Maybe the original Germanic/Celtic spelling was was "Helinnia" . And Nehalennia could mean nothing more than 'near the Hellinia'.

Doesn't sound much like a name for a goddess, but I am not a linguist, so I just give it a try.

-

Btw, the name 'Nehalennia' is said to show up in an old, 19th century French novel titled, "Jacquou le Croquant", by a Eugène Le Roy.

"Nehaliena" is the name of a fairy in that novel, which takes place in the French Perigord.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=24V88LbLUL4C&pg=PA620&lpg=PA620&dq=%22nehaliena%22&source=bl&ots=9jo8RVngYB&sig=kzn15zd4keif2wfk1vcHo4fAUbc&hl=nl&ei=6ZdlTL7mC8ySOIzX4awN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22nehaliena%22&f=false

I must add that this souce assumes Le Roy knew about the Domburg finds.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Lot of people would like to find clues of Atlantis in the bronze age, since it is too difficult searching for a civilization in the ice age. So, after Thera, even Turkey would become a likely location for Atlantis thanks to some researches leaded by the English archaeologist Peter James (“Atlantis, the sunken kingdom, mystery solved”, 1996). He begins from the study of the mythical figure of Atlas (first king of Atlantis), the Greek titan banished to the west beyond the Pillars of Heracles to hold up the sky. James searched for the geographical sources of this figure and particularly from where it was banished. Inevitably he found its sources in Turkey, where once Hittites ruled. Indeed, each Greek mythological entity has its own mirror among the former eastern civilizations like Sumerians, Assyrians, Babylonians and so on. Before the invasion of Persians in Turkey there was the kingdom of Lydia where the mythical figure of King Tantalus was celebrated (he was banished too to hold up the sky and he was tied to bull worship). Plinius, a Latin historian, recorded that in Lydia, near mount Sapilo, one day its capital was swallowed by an earthquake: its name was Tantalis. After the catastrophe the city was replaced by a lake. The parallels Atlantis/Tantalis and Atlas/Tantalus is quite suggestive. Was it the old capital of Lydia the source of the tale of Atlantis? The names sounds familiar and we must remember that Atlantis was the Greek word already translated by Solon and not the original term. Maybe Atlantis is the right translation of Tantalis.

http://www.atlantisrevealed.com/pages/section3/page1.asp?language_=en&pageid=6

Tantalis

(Manisa province in Turkey) British archaeologist Peter James took a clue from Plato's mention of king Tantalus, and investigated the city of Tantalis (also Tantalos) in the province of Manisa, Turkey. In addition to having very similar sounding anagram names, numerous inscriptions and ancient writings from the region matched the Atlantis story. Tantalis, formerly a wealthy city state, was destroyed when a powerful earthquake struck and caused a lake to flood the city.

http://www.occultforum.org/forum/topic?id=19162&p=2

Alternatively, is it possible that Plato was right that Solon gathered the story on his travels, but mistaken in assuming that this was during his famous visit to Egypt? Solon travelled elsewhere, notably to the kingdom of Lydia in western Anatolia (Turkey). There, at the court of king Croesus - proverbial for his riches, but historical nonetheless - Solon is said to have swopped stories not only with the king, but with the great fable-writer Aesop.

It was to Anatolia that many other clues began to lead, beginning with Atlas, the famous Titan of Greek myth who was condemned to the edge of the world to support the skies when his race was defeated by Zeus and the Olympians. Atlas, Plato tells us, was the first king - and eponym - of Atlantis. Analysis of the myths surrounding Atlas and his family suggests that the Greeks believed that his 'home', before he was banished to the west (i.e. the 'Atlantic'), lay to the east and that the Greeks may have learnt the idea of the sky-supporting giant from that quarter. This is confirmed by a mass of pictorial and literary evidence from the Hittite civilization of Bronze Age Anatolia, which provides exact parallels to the classical Greek concept of Atlas.

It was a short step from there to see what the classical traditions of Anatolia - and in particular Lydia - had to say about the 'original' Atlas. Classical scholars have long accepted that another mythological figure, Tantalus, is essentially a Lydian version of Atlas. Tantalus, too, crossed the Olympians, and was condemned to an eternal torment which gave us the word 'tantalise'. In the version given by Homer his punishment was everlasting hunger and thirst, but the more common tale was of a rock which perpetually swayed over his head. Other versions say he was attached to the rock, that he was condemned to support it and that the 'rock' was the sky itself. And Tantalus, like Atlas, is once thought to have ruled an earthly kingdom. When Tantalus was struck by Zeus' lightning for his sins, the city he founded was shattered by an earthquake and drowned beneath a lake. The name of his city was Tantalis.

I could have stopped with this bizarre mixture of cosmological myth and local tradition. There was already enough circumstantial evidence to vindicate Plato's claim that he had not invented the Atlantis story. His putative source, Solon, could have picked up in Lydia the story of Tantalis which had all the key elements for its later exaggeration into Atlantis - from its fabulous wealth and transient empire to its catastrophic transformation into a 'sunken kingdom'. As Tantalus was identified with Atlas, the scene could have been mistakenly transferred to the far west, the location of Atlas after his downfall. Once in the Atlantic, the story of the 'sunken kingdom' could grow uncontrollably during its retelling through the generations from Solon to Plato.

However, I was tempted to go further: could the site of the legendary Tantalis be located, and did such a place ever exist? Clues from classical writers such as Pausanias made it clear that Tantalus' lost city was believed to lie near Mount Sipylus, modern Manisa Dagh, twenty or so miles inland from the modern port of Izmir (Smyrna) on the Aegean coast. Classical writers describe Tantalis/Sipylus not only as the original capital of Lydia, but as the ancestral seat of the Mycenaean kings. Substance was given to this by a lengthy text from the archives of the Hittite Emperors, composed about 1400 BC, describing the troubles they had with a vassal ruler from a western vassal in league with the Mycenaeans. His seat, 'the mountain land of Zippasla', can be reasonably located in Lydia, and identified with Sipylus. Slice by slice, the ruler of Zippasla (Madduwattas by name) swallowed up all the smaller states of western and southern Anatolia and even challenged Hittite authority in Cyprus. How far the men from Zippasla got is hard to say - but Hittite authority was only properly re-established in Anatolia some fifty years later.

If the kingdom of Zippasla lay at Sipylus, where was its capital? Here history, archaeology and legend seem to converge neatly. When I went to Turkey in 1994 it was not too difficult to locate the site of legendary Tantalis. Until about thirty years ago there was a small lake just to the north of Mt Sipylus and a few miles away from a magnificent (and almost undatable) rock-cut tomb which Pausanias described as 'the by-no-means inglorious grave' of king Tantalus. A hundred and fifty years ago the lake was much bigger, and I was pleased, after doing the initial groundwork, to find that 19th-century scholars, including Sir James Frazer, had already identified it as the spot where the ancients believed the lost city lay submerged underwater. As the location for a real city, it would be hard to improve: it lies on a fertile plain between the ancient caravan route skirting the mountain and the river Gediz, main artery of Lydia. Yet we are not reliant on merely theoretical considerations. Three hundred feet up the mountain-side a thirty-foot sculpture of a Mother Goddess gazes out over the very spot where Tantalis was thought to lay. Pausanias claimed that it was carved by the son of Tantalus and that it dates to the Late Bronze Age is undeniable - from its style and from the Hittite hieroglyphics which were incised into the carving about the 13th century BC.

It would be strange to imagine that this unique sculpture was not prepared for the worship of a highly organised community, settled in the plain below. For this, and a host of other reasons, I am happy to believe that here there was once an important Late Bronze Age centre. Most likely it was the Zippasla of the Hittite documents and almost certainly it was the Sipylus or Tantalis of classical texts. For its fate we only have the traditions to go on, but the belief that it was totally devastated by an earthquake is not outlandish. The Izmir region, as travellers to Turkey will know, lies in one of the worst earthquake zones of the world, while the appalling damage suffered by the cities of Lydia during the great earthquake of AD 17 is well documented. Hopefully excavation will one day determine whether a Bronze Age city at Mt Sipylus - like the Atlantis of legend - was really destroyed by an earthquake and consigned to a watery grave.

© 1995 Peter James

http://www.knowledge.co.uk/xxx/cat/james/

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Puzz, here's something about one of your sources about German history, Saxo Grammaticus:

His works were received enthusiastically by Renaissance scholars who were curious about pre-Christian history and legends. Saxo's account of history has been seen to differ greatly from that of his contemporaries, especially between his account and those of Norwegians and Icelanders in that the titles of hero and villain switch between the characters of the various nationalities. There are even differences between Saxo's work, and that of fellow Danish historian Sven Aggesen. These differences often are the result of elaboration on the part of Saxo. His account of the tale of Thyri for example is far more fantastic and blown up than the tale that Sven presents and for this stylization and elaboration of the facts Saxo's history has often been criticized.[22] Saxo's inclusion of Amleth is the most significant part of the Gesta Danorum, however the work also has value in its description of the canonization of Canute and further in comparison to Snorri, whose work shares many characters and stories, creating a better understanding of pre-Christian Scandinavia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxo_Grammaticus

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Btw, the name 'Nehalennia' is said to show up in an old, 19th century French novel titled, "Jacquou le Croquant", by a Eugène Le Roy.

"Nehaliena" is the name of a fairy in that novel, which takes place in the French Perigord.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=24V88LbLUL4C&pg=PA620&lpg=PA620&dq=%22nehaliena%22&source=bl&ots=9jo8RVngYB&sig=kzn15zd4keif2wfk1vcHo4fAUbc&hl=nl&ei=6ZdlTL7mC8ySOIzX4awN&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22nehaliena%22&f=false

I must add that this souce assumes Le Roy knew about the Domburg finds.

.

I found another source about this French novel (and I translated the interesting part):

(...) There was in the forest, above the Granval, a tuquet, ie a hill, where three paths intersected. In the middle was a great old oak that five men could scarcely embrace, and was called: 'lou Jarry de las facias'[???] or the Fairy Oak. This tree, perhaps thousands of years old, was probably one of the ones our forefathers the Gauls worshipped, and to which the Druids came to cut the mistletoe with a golden sickle. As people say, this place was haunted by spirits. Sometimes Néhalénia, the lady with silver shoes, descended from the clouds floating in a white dress, with her two black dogs, mysteriously gliding over the tops of trees whose leaves quivered, she came to rest at the foot of the giant oak. (...)

http://fr.wikisource.org/wiki/Jacquou_le_Croquant/VII

It is known that Nehalennia was worshipped at the southern coast of the North Sea, but also in Cologne:

cologne_nehalennia_bronze_rgm1.JPG

Here she looks quite different.

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