Abramelin Posted August 14, 2010 #676 Share Posted August 14, 2010 (edited) About Twisk (en Medemblik) again: I found an interesting map: Now if you look at the the lower part of the map, you will see a couple of placenames ending in -woud. "Woud" means forest, or woods. Twisk lies 'between' Medemblik (an important city in the OLB) and those 'woods'... Again, for me, this is a sign that the whole story of the OLB is based on very local topography, and then enlarged with a magifying glass to make it look more grand. OK, so (the Frisian) 'twisk' means 'tussen' (Dutch), or 'in between', and 'tusschen' (in Old Dutch; 'ch' pronounced like 'ch' in 'Loch Ness). Hence the translation of the OLB Twiskland into 'Tussenland', 'in between land', the land that separated Frya's people from the Magyar/Finn, or better, Germany. But I tried something else: I changed Twisk into Tuisc (pronouced the same in English)... and Googled. Lo and behold, one of the first hits was an introduction to the OLB by Ottema himself: there he mentioned the ancient germanic god "Tuisco", but did not think it was a lead to the meaning of 'Twiskland' because not much was known about this god. Well, I tend to disagree..... Tacitus: Germania The Inhabitants. 0rigins of the Name "Germany. " The Germans themselves I should regard as aboriginal, and not mixed at all with other races through immigration or intercourse. For, in former times it was not by land but on shipboard that those who sought to emigrate would arrive; and the boundless and, so to speak, hostile ocean beyond us, is seldom entered by a sail from our world. And, beside the perils of rough and unknown seas, who would leave Asia, or Africa for Italy for Germany, with its wild country, its inclement skies, its sullen manners and aspect, unless indeed it were his home? In their ancient songs, their only way of remembering or recording the past they celebrate an earth-born god Tuisco, and his son Mannus, as the origin of their race, as their founders. To Mannus they assign three sons, from whose names, they say, the coast tribes are called Ingaevones; those of the interior, Herminones; all the rest, Istaevones. Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity, assert that the god had several descendants, and the nation several appellations, as Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilij, and that these are nine old names. The name Germany, on the other hand, they say is modern and newly introduced, from the fact that the tribes which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now called Tungrians, were then called Germans. Thus what was the name of a tribe, and not of a race, gradually prevailed, till all called themselves by this self-invented name of Germans, which the conquerors had first employed to inspire terror. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html And of course, good ol'Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuisto So, there are now two ways to explain the name 'Twiskland', and both seem to point to the Germans/Germany. But Alewyn (see a map from his book I posted earlier), thinks Twiskland was located in Russia. That's what I meant when I said, "think local , not global". Also interesting - and to me no coincidence whatsoever; the authors of the OLB were no doubt familiar with Tacitus' work - is that this god, Tuisco, is the father of a god Mannus, who in turn is the father of three SONS, the mythical ancestors of the three main Germanic tribes. (Of course I was thinking about the OLB god Wralda who created the ancestors of all people, three WOMEN, Frya, Lyda and Finda). . Edited August 14, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 14, 2010 #677 Share Posted August 14, 2010 (edited) In post 667 and post 673 I talked about a city called "Ganuenta" of which the name was found on a votive altar dedicated to the goddess Nehalennia. The sources assumed that Ganuenta could have been some kind of capital of the Frisiavones on the isle of Walcheren, and also that Ganuenta was the place these votive altars were erected (both the names Nehalennnia and Ganuenta appear on the same votive altar). Ok... but I thought..(like one other source, btw, who translated it into 'near a mouth'), "the inscription doesn't say "Ganuenta", but "Ganventa": the Romans used the letter -V- for both -U- and -V-." Then the true spelling is Ganventa, so I thought, "this venta' sounds awefully Roman." Well, then of course a lot of Googling, and this is what I found: First this: http://www.roman-britain.org/places/venta_silurum.htm http://www.roman-britain.org/places/glannoventa.htm So there were Roman placenames ending in -venta in England. The Roman Latin "venta" means marketplace. But this site gives quite an extensive etymology about that 'venta', and tries to explain it had nothing to do with any Latin name for marketplace: http://marikavel.com/angleterre/hampshire/whilton-lodge/accueil.htm Bannaventa Well, I can't really say what is true or not - I am not a linguist - but all this got me a bit further.... Next: The Roman period (c.43 – 410 AD) offers tantalising clues from a ‘lost’ Roman military site; clues which the Low Furness: First Light archaeological discovery programme will investigate in detail between 2003 and 2008. Current archaeological survey is revealing substantial quantities of distinctive Roman military-type masonry built into walls around Great Urswick. The only logical context for this is a fort, and close analysis of the documentary evidence relating to names of forts in this sector of the Roman Empire reveals a missing site in southern Cumbria known variously as Clanoventa, Cantiventi, Glannoventa and Glannibanta; which was occupied for part of its life by a military unit; Cohors I Morinorum. Despite this name having also been linked to other long-known Roman Cumbrian forts at Ravenglass and Ambleside, a strong case has recently been made for it applying to a site here in Low Furness. Iron ore, building and quern stones - all vital resources for the Romans - were all obtainable here in quantity, and Low Furness has long produced sporadic finds of Roman coins ranging from pre-invasion issues to those in circulation at the very end of the Empire. Will the First Light archaeological discovery programme rewrite the history books? Regular updates of this website will allow you to find out! (...) Steve Dickinson indicates that his current research is building a case for a late Roman settlement and estate at Urswick supporting the foundation of a sub-Roman, early historic, British church. His case for Patrick’s origins at Urswick centres on a number of factors, including finding archaeological evidence there for a previously ‘lost’ or misidentified Roman site named Glannibanta, Clanoventa, Cantiventi or Glannoventa. Whilst this in itself would not ‘prove’ an association with Patrick’s Bannaventa Berniae, it would certainly strengthen the case for it. (...) Could it have been an earlier summit meeting between Theodore and the prior Luigne from the Isle of Man (see below) which might have taken place during Theodore’s first pastoral visits a little while after a critical mid-7th century AD Synod, in an attempt to persuade the Isle of Man to ‘go Roman’? That would still make Luigne very old but it lends some credibility to the event. Of course, Urswick could be Luigne’s mystical ‘Isle of Elen’, God’s ‘trysting place’, and we mustn’t dismiss that one yet! http://www.operationalrisk.info/lowfurness/Lowfurnessarchaeologyprecis.pdf http://www.romanmap.com/htm/ravcosm/rc106-122.htm http://www.romanmap.com/htm/names/Ravenglass.htm Could it be that some people are looking for an old city in the completely wrong place? Could Ganuenta/Ganventa be located in England, and not in Holland?? Was this votive altar erected by someone from England, and would that thus mean that Genuenta is not the name of a place on Walcheren Island??? Or is it just the other way round: are the Brittish looking in the wrong place for their 'lost city'?? Glannibanta, Clanoventa, Cantiventi, Glannoventa ........ Ganventa??? At first I was sure I could not just drop the -L- from Glannoventa to get to Ganventa, but apparently that is what already happened to the name of that city the people in England are looking for. It doesn't appear too farfetched to assume that happened regularly (maybe because someone with with loose teeth tried to spell it with GL, almost spit his last teeth out, and so changed it into -G-, LOL !!). - Maybe you have noticed, but I also highlighted "Isle of Elen" in my quotes. Very probably they were talking about the "(H)Elen" of the "The Dream of Maxen Wledig", an ancient Welsh legend about Roman emperor Maximus? Read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Maximus http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Mabinogion/The_Dream_of_Maxen_Wledig http://www.missgien.net/arthurian/mabinogion/macsen.html http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab29.htm Then... I remember from the Doggerland thread (the thread on this site, or the thread on my own site) that I once posted about the several etymologies of the name "Nehalennia". One source came up with the idea that she might have been similar or even equal to an ancient goddess from the mainland of Europe with the name "Elen" (sometimes spelled as "Helen", but not the Greek one, sorry), an "Elen" who had something to do with reindeer, meaning: she was really ancient. Well then, Nehalennia was venerated on some island, Walcheren. Maybe her abbreviated name was Elen (one of many spelling of Nehalennia was also Nehelennia). And maybe this goddess slipped into a Britonic/Welsh myth?? Connecting loose ends, lol, but what fun it is ! . Edited August 14, 2010 by Abramelin 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 14, 2010 #678 Share Posted August 14, 2010 From a Ducth site about a creek called the "Gantel": GANTEL = GANGA (oud Fries) 10e eeuw.(old Frisian. 10th century) GANKCHALA (oud Fries) waarsch. 9e eeuw.(old Frisian, probably 9th century) GANC (oud Fries) mogelijk 9e eeuw = watergang- loopgeul- weg.(old Frisian/ possibly 9th century = waterway - stream gulley - road) De Gantel komt voor als een restant van een voormalige vloedkreek in het Westland en op de ZH-eilanden. Volgens anderen ook GEIN, GENE, GENNE, KEENE. (The Gantel shows up as the remains of a former tidal creek in Westland, and on the South Holland islands. According to others also GEIN, GENE, GENNE, KEENE.) http://www.oud-wateringen.nl/jaarverslag_1992.htm http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/sten009monu10_01/sten009monu10_01_0007.php Ganuenta/Ganventa........ I have the strong suspicion that that name has somethig to do with a location near an important tidal creek. You know.... one of those many creeks in Creekland.. sorry, Krekaland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piney Posted August 14, 2010 #679 Share Posted August 14, 2010 "Ellen of the Hosts" wife of Magnus Maximus possibly a goddess? Interesting! My English grandfather was into British and Anglo-Saxon mythology and my mother was named for her. That's how I know about Weyland and his forge. Abe, Do you think there is a connection with the Breton legend of Ys? Nobody has actually found the location and the legend has so many variations and additions it's obliviously very old. Lapiche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #680 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Gosh Abe, you have done a huge amount of research and I just got back online after not being here last night, so much catching up to do here. I did see Medemblik on my map, on the West of the Ijsselmeer, Tuisco, Twisk...possibly, I do tend to see many groups named in this manner, all the Greeks, Dorians etc, named after mythical/real? heroes. I tend to head in that direction often myself. I will comment way more as I go through each post here, just noticed those few things. One on your side here: I just watched a DVD this morning on the Vikings, seems VIK means CREEK - get that...the VIK ings are CREEK landers...it says it might translate to people of the fjords...so, thought this actually could mean something too - You say it's local, OK, so Krekalanders may even refer to the people of the Fjords, creek, river areas NORTH, rather than South, it could be the name of the actual area of the VIKINGS, the Creek - Vik people. Scandinavia. Back later when I spend some time on your posts Abe, some great info and posts you have come up with even though I have just scanned them briefly for now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #681 Share Posted August 15, 2010 From a Ducth site about a creek called the "Gantel": GANTEL = GANGA (oud Fries) 10e eeuw.(old Frisian. 10th century) GANKCHALA (oud Fries) waarsch. 9e eeuw.(old Frisian, probably 9th century) GANC (oud Fries) mogelijk 9e eeuw = watergang- loopgeul- weg.(old Frisian/ possibly 9th century = waterway - stream gulley - road) De Gantel komt voor als een restant van een voormalige vloedkreek in het Westland en op de ZH-eilanden. Volgens anderen ook GEIN, GENE, GENNE, KEENE. (The Gantel shows up as the remains of a former tidal creek in Westland, and on the South Holland islands. According to others also GEIN, GENE, GENNE, KEENE.) http://www.oud-wateringen.nl/jaarverslag_1992.htm http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/sten009monu10_01/sten009monu10_01_0007.php Ganuenta/Ganventa........ I have the strong suspicion that that name has somethig to do with a location near an important tidal creek. You know.... one of those many creeks in Creekland.. sorry, Krekaland. Probably in the Oosterschelde estuary then, near this Colijnsplaat I'd say, where they locate this Ganuenta. Maybe not Krekalander though if Krekaland as in my above post, is Scandinavia. I don't think they ever refer to Nyhellenia as coming from Krekaland, just going to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #682 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Then... I remember from the Doggerland thread (the thread on this site, or the thread on my own site) that I once posted about the several etymologies of the name "Nehalennia". One source came up with the idea that she might have been similar or even equal to an ancient goddess from the mainland of Europe with the name "Elen" (sometimes spelled as "Helen", but not the Greek one, sorry), an "Elen" who had something to do with reindeer, meaning: she was really ancient. Well then, Nehalennia was venerated on some island, Walcheren. Maybe her abbreviated name was Elen (one of many spelling of Nehalennia was also Nehelennia). And maybe this goddess slipped into a Britonic/Welsh myth?? Connecting loose ends, lol, but what fun it is ! . I know, I know, I am a loose end connecting addict... OK, Helen, Greek, yes, on the Etruscan plates her name is Eleni - much closer to your European Elen, because of course, Illyria is more Baltic. I have been telling you all along that Helen/Elen/Eleni is important, I'm not exactly sure how yet but I see her all through this. I'm not sure of Elen in other myths but Pliney seemed to find something in it. It is not inconceivable that she is a form of Athena and I'll tell you how - through Nemesis being Helen's real mother, who laid the eggs to hatch, whom Leda nurtured. Nemesis, divine retribution or often our alter enemy, the bad part of someone even, an alter-ego. Nemesis is consistent with being Athena's alter-ego, as we see Nemesis with wings and her association to Nike, then Athena holds Nike herself as the Victory. The meaning is held in the Samothracian Mysteries and the Great Gods, where the large statue of Nike/Victory is. This is to say, just like the Swan theme all through that I again say is the basis of the Dorian helmet. Here's some other cool helmets like birds: I was sorting my new Ancient Civilisations cards out that I just got and one of the people was Vercingetorix, the most famous Gallic leader who fought valiantly against the invading forces of Julius Caesar trying to invade Gaul c. 50BC. What I noticed on him was his helmet, that on the drawing was near identical to the helmet Perseus wears, with wings on it. I found this image of Vercingetorix on Google but it's not the same one as on the card I have, it does show his impressive winged helmet though. Wiki page on him http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vercingetorix That shows a good Perseus as it has the same sword as this old image in Italy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus These helmets, to me, give the wearer the power of the bird, often associated with Mercury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #683 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Yes, maybe Elen/Nyhellenia was transferred into Briton, I'd say, easy enough. So, we are going to Avalon with her...Lundy actually. These are the various avatars of Elen, encountered during the writing of Lundy, Isle of Avalon http://www.lundyisleofavalon.co.uk/godsetc/elen.htm That gives a list of all related Elen names inc. Helios and Helle. You saidVery probably they were talking about the "(H)Elen" of the "The Dream of Maxen Wledig", an ancient Welsh legend about Roman emperor Maximus? Read about it here: which is included in this listing...given above at the link. Part of which is the one you mentioned: 'Elen Luydavc' -'Elen Luydogg' - 'Helen of the Hosts,' appears in the 'Breudwt Maxen.' She is associated with the Roman Roads in Wales known to this day as 'Sarn(au) Helen'. but their is many more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #684 Share Posted August 15, 2010 OK, so (the Frisian) 'twisk' means 'tussen' (Dutch), or 'in between', and 'tusschen' (in Old Dutch; 'ch' pronounced like 'ch' in 'Loch Ness). Hence the translation of the OLB Twiskland into 'Tussenland', 'in between land', the land that separated Frya's people from the Magyar/Finn, or better, Germany. But I tried something else: I changed Twisk into Tuisc (pronouced the same in English)... and Googled. Lo and behold, one of the first hits was an introduction to the OLB by Ottema himself: there he mentioned the ancient germanic god "Tuisco", but did not think it was a lead to the meaning of 'Twiskland' because not much was known about this god. Well, I tend to disagree..... Tacitus: Germania The Inhabitants. 0rigins of the Name "Germany. " The Germans themselves I should regard as aboriginal, and not mixed at all with other races through immigration or intercourse. For, in former times it was not by land but on shipboard that those who sought to emigrate would arrive; and the boundless and, so to speak, hostile ocean beyond us, is seldom entered by a sail from our world. And, beside the perils of rough and unknown seas, who would leave Asia, or Africa for Italy for Germany, with its wild country, its inclement skies, its sullen manners and aspect, unless indeed it were his home? In their ancient songs, their only way of remembering or recording the past they celebrate an earth-born god Tuisco, and his son Mannus, as the origin of their race, as their founders. To Mannus they assign three sons, from whose names, they say, the coast tribes are called Ingaevones; those of the interior, Herminones; all the rest, Istaevones. Some, with the freedom of conjecture permitted by antiquity, assert that the god had several descendants, and the nation several appellations, as Marsi, Gambrivii, Suevi, Vandilij, and that these are nine old names. The name Germany, on the other hand, they say is modern and newly introduced, from the fact that the tribes which first crossed the Rhine and drove out the Gauls, and are now called Tungrians, were then called Germans. Thus what was the name of a tribe, and not of a race, gradually prevailed, till all called themselves by this self-invented name of Germans, which the conquerors had first employed to inspire terror. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/tacitus1.html And of course, good ol'Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuisto So, there are now two ways to explain the name 'Twiskland', and both seem to point to the Germans/Germany. But Alewyn (see a map from his book I posted earlier), thinks Twiskland was located in Russia. That's what I meant when I said, "think local , not global". Also interesting - and to me no coincidence whatsoever; the authors of the OLB were no doubt familiar with Tacitus' work - is that this god, Tuisco, is the father of a god Mannus, who in turn is the father of three SONS, the mythical ancestors of the three main Germanic tribes. (Of course I was thinking about the OLB god Wralda who created the ancestors of all people, three WOMEN, Frya, Lyda and Finda). . Yep, I agree, Twisk may be Germany, from Tuisco. The English translation seemed to imply this as it had Germany in brackets next to Twiskland. BUT here's one for you, did you see this, one your side again and not even as far as Germany but still in Holland..Medemblik no less. Twisk (52°44′N 5°3′E / 52.733°N 5.05°E / 52.733; 5.05) is a village in the Dutch province of North Holland. It is a part of the municipality of Medemblik, and lies about 10 km north of Hoorn. Twisk was a separate municipality until 1979, when the new municipality of Noorder-Koggenland was created.[1] In 2001, the small village centre of Twisk had 398 inhabitants. The built-up area of the village was 0.07 km², and contained 159 residences.[2] Most of the population of Twisk lives outside the centre, along the road between Opperdoes and Abbekerk. The wider statistical area of Twisk has a population of around 1160.[3] This includes the hamlet Het Westeinde, close to Opperdoes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twisk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #685 Share Posted August 15, 2010 OK, silly me, of course you saw it...lol Yep, so Twiskland is in Holland but could be interpreted as Germany because of the German word Tuisco. I'm going on Krekaland being in Scandinavia myself as I said before, simply going on Vik being creek and it does seem to be a bit further away than the immediate local area. Palm Land I still say is the Siwa Oasis though. Some scholars suggest that Helen was also a very ancient goddess associated with trees and birds. Birth and Early Life. Some myths say that Helen's mother was Leda, the wife of King Tyndareus of Sparta*. Others name Nemesis, the goddess of revenge, as her mother. Helen had a sister Clytemnestra, who later became the wife of King Agamemnon* of Mycenae, and twin brothers Castor and Pollux, known as the Dioscuri. http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Go-Hi/Helen-of-Troy.html I wanted to look at Helle, a cloud nymph, some more because Hellespont literally means Sea of Hel(le). Nephele is Helle's mother in Greek myth. In Greek mythology, Nephele (Greek: Νεφέλη, from νέφος nephos "cloud"; Latinized to Nubes) was a cloud nymph who figured prominently in the story of Phrixus and Helle[1]. Greek myth also has it that Nephele is the cloud whom Zeus created in the image of Hera to trick Ixion to test his integrity after displaying his lust for Hera during a feast as a guest of Zeus. Ixion failed in restraining his lust for Hera and thus fathering Centaurs. Nephele married Athamus, but he divorced her for Ino. Phrixus, son of Athamas and Nephele, along with his twin Helle, were hated by their stepmother, Ino. Ino hatched a devious plot to get rid of the twins, roasting all the town's crop seeds so they would not grow. The local farmers, frightened of famine, asked a nearby oracle for assistance. Ino bribed the men sent to the oracle to lie and tell the others that the oracle required the sacrifice of Phrixus. Before he was killed though, Phrixus and Helle were rescued by a flying golden ram sent by Nephele, their natural mother. Phrixus and Helle were instructed to not look down to earth for the duration of their flight. Helle though, did look down, and fell off the ram into the Hellespont (which was named after her, meaning Sea of Helle) and drowned, but Phrixus survived all the way to Colchis, where King Aeetes took him in and treated him kindly, giving Phrixus his daughter, Chalciope, in marriage. In gratitude, Phrixus gave the king the golden fleece of the ram, which Aeetes hung in a tree in his kingdom. The golden fleece would later be taken by Jason. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephele When I looked at an old map c. 1600 on here, it showed Helle as a peninsular right near the mouth of the Vistula River, which on the same map said Herodotus had called that river the Eridanus. This was the exact area they collected and traded the Baltic amber, as archaeology tells us and where I place these Jutters that at first only collected amber on the shore. I'm not going with them being in Jutland just yet, but the area of Helle and the mouth of the Vistula River in today's Poland. It is my opinion that the Greek myths might not be Greek in nature and actually originate in this area. As does the myth of Phaethon falling into (Herodotus's) Eridanus River, the amber tears shed by his sisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #686 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Another place in Poland that sounded a bit like Kreka to me was Krakow, so I checked it out, as it also on the Vistula River it would have been on the route of the trade of amber down to the Carpathians. It doesn't give any sort of creek meaning but no one is really sure how it got it's name and is possibly after another legendary figue Krak, Krakus/Grakch. (creekland?) There was a near and a far one, maybe near one in Poland and far one in Scandinavia. Kraków (Polish pronunciation: [ˈkrakuf] ( listen)), also spelled Krakow or Cracow (English: /ˈkrækaʊ/ listen), is the second largest and one of the oldest cities in Poland. Its historic centre was inscribed on the list of World Heritage Sites as the first of its kind.[1] Situated on the Vistula River (Polish: Wisła) in the Lesser Poland region, the city dates back to the 7th century. Krakus was leader of the Lechites. Krakus or Grakch, now that sounds like Greek to me - Gr akch Then I noted this little footnote on the bottom of the Lechites Wiki page - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lechites ^ "Laesir is the Old Norse term for the Ljachar, a people near the Vistula in Poland". [in:] Theodore Murdock Andersson, Kari Ellen Gade Morkinskinna : The Earliest Icelandic Chronicle of the Norwegian Kings (1030-1157). ISBN13 9780801436949 p. 471; "The word here for Poles is "Laesum" - the dative plural from a nominative plural "Laesir". This clearly is derived from the old name for Pole - "Lyakh", since in the course of the Slavonic paradigm -kh- becomes -s-in accordance with the "second palatalization" and the addition of the regular Norse plural ending of -ir- [...] [in:] The Ukrainian review. 1963. p. 70; "eastern Wends, meaning obviously the Vjatyci/Radimici, Laesir "Poles" or "Western Slavs" (ef. Old Rus'ian ljaxy) [in:] Omeljan Pritsak. Old Scandinavian sources other than the sagas. 1981. p. 300 L AESIR is the Old Norse term for the people near the Vistula in Poland. As the old map showed, the Aesir, where I also placed the Gods, the Aesir of Norse Gods, exactly where these people who were led by Krakus, possibly down the Vistula to Krakow came from. What I see then is a transfer into the Carpathians into Romania, Yugoslavia and into Albania. Look closely in Albania and I see the city called Tirane, a bit like Tiryn(s), the city of Perseus. Eleni. I say it all come down the Vistula and into Western Greece. Albania/Illyria - Thrace. I think it can also connect to the Etruscans. Back up to the delta of the Vistula. Did you know it was this area, Gdansk/Danzig that was the pinpoint start of World War 2. I note it is a FREE city, like Paris and the Freya people. I knew Germany invaded Poland but never really knew the details... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gda%C5%84sk The Free City of Danzig issued its own stamps and currency (the Gulden). Many examples of stamps and coins, bearing the legend Freie Stadt Danzig, survive in collections. There was a strong desire to rescind the Allied Powers' decision on the status of the city's 400,000 citizens which were predominantly German. This culminated in the election of a National Socialist government in Danzig's elections in May 1933. The German incorporation of Danzig was a territorial claim that every government of the Weimar Republic put on its agenda. A German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact was signed and the Free City's government was ordered by the Nazis to stop making problems between Poland and Danzig. Poland and Danzig entered a brief period of good economic cooperation and prosperity. Nevertheless, a totalitarian society was being constructed in Germany, and especially members of the Polish or Jewish minority required stamina in the face of everyday acts of violence and persecution from the Nazis. About 50 percent of members of the Jewish Community of Danzig had left the city within a year after a Pogrom in October 1937,[17] after the Kristallnacht riots in November 1938 the community decided to organize its emigration[18] and in March 1939 a first transport to Palestine started[19]. By September 1939 barely 1,700 mostly elderly Jews remained. In early 1941 just 600 Jews were still living in Danzig who were later murdered in the Holocaust.[17][20] Out of the 2938 Jewish community in the city 1227 were able to escape from the Nazis before the outbreak of war[21][dubious – discuss] World War II (1939–1945) Postage stamp issued by the Nazi German Post to celebrate the "re-joining" of the city with Germany.Following the annexation of Austria and the Sudetenland, Germany in October 1938 urged the Danzig territory's cession to Germany. On September 1, 1939, Nazi Germany invaded Poland, initiating World War II. On September 2, 1939 Germany officially annexed the Free City. The Nazi regime murdered the Polish postmen defending the Polish Post Office: this was one of the first war crimes during the war. Other Polish soldiers defending the Westerplatte stronghold surrendered after seven days of fighting. The German commander returned the sword to the Polish commander for putting up a brave fight. On Sep 7th NSDAP organised night parade on Adolf-Hitlerstrasse to celebrate success. It was bombed by a single Polish hydroplane operating from Hela peninsula piloted by Jozef Rudzki and Zdzisław Juszczakiewicz. 6 bombs weight 12.5 kg were dropped from very low height.[22] In October 1939, Danzig, together with the rest of Polish Pomerania to the south and west, became the German Reichsgau (administrative district) of Danzig-West Prussia (Danzig–Westpreussen). Polish and German dissidents were sent to concentration camps, especially neighbouring Stutthof where 85,000 victims perished. Kashubian and Polish intelligentsia were killed in the Piaśnica mass murder site, which is estimated to have had 60,000 victims. At the beginning of 1945, Germany started evacuating civilians from Danzig. Most Germans fled the city, many by seaborne evacuation to Schleswig-Holstein. This happened in winter under the threat of bombs and in constant danger of submarines. On March 30, 1945 the Soviet Red Army seized Danzig. In the following days, Soviet (and allegedly Polish) soldiers were given completely free hand in the city. Danzig was the scene of brutal violence, rapes, murders, and robbery, and eventually the city was set on fire. From 1945-1950 most Germans were expelled from the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #687 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Here's an old map you might have missed, enlarge it to see the area of the Aesti (Aesir Gods) and Helle peninsular of old with the Vistula marked as also being the Eridanus. I forgot at the time that Phaethon's sister were the HEL iades. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Blaeu_1645_-_Germaniae_veteris_typus.jpg Gdansk again... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mystery, magic, glamour and the quest for the golden grail...these aspects have all fuelled the flame for humankind’s age-old search and love for amber. From ancient times, this organic gem was prized by Greeks and Romans as ‘petrified sunlight’, as they believed it to possess the warming, healing and life-giving powers of the sun. According to Greek mythology, amber originated from the tears shed by the Heliades sisters (daughters of Helios, the Sun God) over the death of their brother Phaethon, who fell to earth with his horse-drawn sun chariot. The weeping sisters transformed into poplar trees on the bank of the Eridanus River, and their tears became ‘glistening drops of amber’. The true origin of Baltic amber is less lyrical but equally fascinating. Between 35 to 70 million years ago, the region that is now the Baltic Sea and Scandinavia was covered with a massive prehistoric coniferous forest. As the climate became warmer the conifer trees – a type of now-extinct pine tree – started to exude large amounts of resin to protect themselves against insects and fungus. Over time, the changing sea levels made amber settle on the bottom of the sea and liquid resins caught in the sediments were fossilised into amber. The dead tree trunks were washed southward to the coastal area between the mouth of the Vistula River (near the Polish port of Gdańsk ) and the Sambia Peninsula (now located in Russia’s Kaliningrad area). The hardened lumps of resin, the rough rock that is now knows as amber, drifted to the seashore in massive quantities where people simply collected them in baskets. This region is estimated to provide 90% of all gem-quality amber in the world, with deposits in Poland alone totaling approximately 650,000 tons. As soon as this non-precious stone starting washing up on the shores of Northern European countries (including territories of present-day Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Poland, Denmark, Norway and Sweden), it became a prized possession that brought faraway nations into contact with one another. Tradeways between East and West were established as early as the second millennium B.C. during the so called ‘New Stone Age’. By about 1500 B.C. the network of roads and waterways in eastern and central Europe had linked together to create the ‘Amber Road’. This ancient amber trade route ran from the Baltic Sea, down the Vistula, Elbe and Danube River all the way through Italy, Greece, the Black Sea and Egypt, and connected with the Silk Road that led to obscure Asian areas. Intensive trade in amber continued throughout reign of the Roman Empire until the third century A.D., when ongoing wars shattered the trade route. Poland and the Baltic region eventually came under the control of the Order of the Knights of the Cross (a.k.a. The Teutonic Knights) in 1264 and they took absolute control over the manufacturing and trading of amber. By order of the Knights, all amber had to be given to the appointed official of a given region, and anyone caught trying to hide or steal the stone would be sentenced to death. Amber trade saw a resurgence in Poland after the Polish-Lithuanian forces defeated the Teutonic Order in 1410’s Battle of Grunwald. The ageold amber-bearing city of Gdańsk was incorporated into the country in 1466 and the first amber craftsman’s guild was established in 1477. Other historically important amber guilds in Poland were founded in the coastal cities of Elbląg, Kołobrzeg, Koszalin and Słupsk. With the rapid development of amber guilds, specialists and goldsmiths re-established connections with the historic trade partners and forged contemporary channels of commerce. Gdańsk: Amber Capital Bound with the inexhaustible treasure of the Baltic Sea, Gdańsk became the centre of amber craft as early as the 15th century. Following the downfall of the Teutonic Knights, guilds and craft organisations multiplied in numbers and artistic amber craft developed rapidly in the town. By the 16th and 17th centuries, with the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth in its strongest phase, amber crafting had reached an apex of creative development and prestige, turning from use in mainly devotional items to ordinary objects and lavish objets d’art. Amber craftsmen in both Gdańsk and Königsberg (modern-day Kaliningrad) used amber to make an assortment of kitchen utensils (glasses, bottles and cutlery), frames, candlesticks, boxes, chessboards and interior design trinkets for nobility, clergymen and other well-to-do citizens. Special one-off amber artefacts were also given as gifts in diplomacy for European rulers, religious figures and celebrities. Anna Jagiellon, the Queen of Poland and Grand Duchess of Lithuania during the second half of the 16th century, for example, received a heart-shaped pendant with the portrait of Hungarian King Stefan Bathory, made by a Gdańsk-based amber master. Political turmoil and economic hardship saw the beginning of the backsliding in the ‘heyday of amber craft’ during the mid-18th century. The two world wars effectively wiped out the Polish and European amber craft, destroying every single amber workshop in Gdańsk. While the 1960s and 1970s spurred a resurgence of amber trade and affairs, it wasn’t until the collapse of the Communist system in 1989 that the new era of the business of amber really began. Today, the city boasts hundreds of amber shops, studios and galleries – several of which are stationed on a narrow, cobble-stone Mariacka Street – showcasing hand-made necklaces, rings, bracelets, brooches, earrings, colliers, rosaries, key chains and carvings. At present, local amber craftsmen are hard at work designing and building a 120 m2 amber alter in the city’s St. Bridget church, which will incorporate over six tons of the golden stone. The city has also become a respected center of amber-related scientific research, with the main offices of the International Association of Amber Masters and the National Amber Chamber of Commerce both based in Gdańsk. Moreover, the city’s main university features the world’s first and only Department of Amber. http://www.polishexpress.co.uk/inc/print.php?typ=art&id=699 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 15, 2010 #688 Share Posted August 15, 2010 (edited) "Ellen of the Hosts" wife of Magnus Maximus possibly a goddess? Interesting! My English grandfather was into British and Anglo-Saxon mythology and my mother was named for her. That's how I know about Weyland and his forge. Abe, Do you think there is a connection with the Breton legend of Ys? Nobody has actually found the location and the legend has so many variations and additions it's obliviously very old. Lapiche Yes Piney, from what I gathered here and there is that this Elen or Helen is a lot older than the Elen as she shows up in the legend I mentioned. Heh, your mother was named after her? My mother's full first name is Helena, lol. The legend of Ys, hmm.... Of course there is always the possibility that a real island with some citadel or simply a city submerged; an island in the Channel or maybe somwhere in the southern North Sea. A city with a famous queen.. Who knows? I didn't check the myth, but I remember it was protected by some sort of dike, or flood gates? I don't know if you know, but many cities/villages in the Zeeland province of The Netherlands (and of course, no especially on Walcheren island) were built as a socalled 'ringwalburg' or in English, a large enclosure made by a clay and stone ringwall in which people lived. Sometimes it had an artificial mound ("terp") on which the house of the king or chief was located. (I will try to add an example later). These ringwalburgs were erected to protect people from the invading Vikings, not - as far as I know - to protect against the rising sea level. But not doubt it will have also protected the people living there during a storm surge. And I do have to add that these ringwalburg were constructed in the early middle ages, not during or before the time of the Romans. - A ringwalburg near Zutphen (a city to the south of Friesland): Middelburg (on Walcheren): Restaurated part of a ringwalburg in Souburg (on Walcheren): A sketch: Alas, the one I saw online, the one with the terp in the middle, I couldn't find it anymore, but it was much larger than the ones I posted. And the next is an impression of the city/port where the remnants of the temple of Nehalennia (and those votive altars) were found (Nehalennia's temple is in the middle): . Edited August 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #689 Share Posted August 15, 2010 (edited) The decline of Egypt and Akkad c. 2200BC has been discussed here earlier and Alewyn covered many of his own ideas on this one. Looking for Phaethon in this timeframe of maybe 2193BC, I used Cybersky again. Looking West as the sun went down on 21st October 2193BC: I managed to save and upload this screen shot... Can you see it very well? That is looking West from Finland as the sun went down at 4.47pm. The low Red planet is Mars, across from it, a Yellow one with cross hair is the Sun, going down, low in the sky, with Mars. Then you can see all bunched up is Mercury, Venus and Jupiter with Pluto just above. Then Saturn a bit out - all in Orphiuchus and Scorpio and Draco the serpent dragon, symbol of the North and later Vikings wraps itself around the North Pole. Just as the myth has Phaethon falling at the claws of Scorpio, just past Orphiuchus. All happening in the Milky Way. This combination (except for an eclipse) but in context too, the moon is not there at all, so could be 'hiding' or covering itself. and the horses, making light of the youth, left their accustomed course; and first they turned aside to traverse the heavens, setting it afire and creating what is now called the Milky Way, That part is Pythagorean theory, that the fall of Phaethon created the Milky Way, so it had to have occurred in the Milky Way. They also say, according to Aristotle, the conjunction of planets creates a COMET. Let us go on to explain the nature of comets and the 'milky way', after a preliminary discussion of the views of others. Anaxagoras and Democritus declare that comets are a conjunction of the planets approaching one another and so appearing to touch one another. Some of the Italians called Pythagoreans say that the comet is one of the planets, but that it appears at great intervals of time and only rises a little above the horizon. This is the case with Mercury too; because it only rises a little above the horizon it often fails to be seen and consequently appears at great intervals of time. http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html What I haven't shown on that CyberSpace image is the Galactic Centre sits amongst the cluster of Jupiter, Venus and Mercury. Look! Nyx (Night) is driving Hemera (Day) from the noonday sky, and the suns orb as it plunges toward the earth draws in its train the Astera (Stars). The Horai (Seasons or Hours) abandon their posts at the gates and flee toward the gloom that rises to meet them, while the horses have thrown off their yoke and rush madly on. http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html Draws in the planets to it's train. To me, this combination of planets on the day Alewyn has nominated as a viable day to use does meet the conditions I'd see as the Phaethon event from descriptions given. Anyways, was just thinking about the date some more. Edited August 15, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #690 Share Posted August 15, 2010 (edited) If anyone can tell me anything more how to read that chart or anything, it would help. Close up it doesn't look as exciting... Something looks to be happening though... I'm sure if I checked every day of that year I could find the right planetary alignment. It could be more in time with Shulgi's eclipse. Edited August 15, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 15, 2010 #691 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Gosh Abe, you have done a huge amount of research and I just got back online after not being here last night, so much catching up to do here. I did see Medemblik on my map, on the West of the Ijsselmeer, Tuisco, Twisk...possibly, I do tend to see many groups named in this manner, all the Greeks, Dorians etc, named after mythical/real? heroes. I tend to head in that direction often myself. I will comment way more as I go through each post here, just noticed those few things. One on your side here: I just watched a DVD this morning on the Vikings, seems VIK means CREEK - get that...the VIK ings are CREEK landers...it says it might translate to people of the fjords...so, thought this actually could mean something too - You say it's local, OK, so Krekalanders may even refer to the people of the Fjords, creek, river areas NORTH, rather than South, it could be the name of the actual area of the VIKINGS, the Creek - Vik people. Scandinavia. Back later when I spend some time on your posts Abe, some great info and posts you have come up with even though I have just scanned them briefly for now. Puzz, I know you are here, posting, but I will answer following the order in which you posted: Yep, I know 'vik' is related to fjord and creek. But even though that is true, if you follow the sequence of tribes and peoples mentioned in the OLB (Marsaten, Landsaten and so on), then we have to look the south, and to a land with many creeks and islands like the Zeeland province as it was in ancient times; it seems a more likely candidate for Krekaland. If Krekaland was indeed the homeland of the Vikings, then the OLB would be even more in trouble: it's already called Schoonland, and it's in the north. Did you know, btw that, although some have interpretated Krekaland as Greece, others interpretated it as being Italy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 15, 2010 #692 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Probably in the Oosterschelde estuary then, near this Colijnsplaat I'd say, where they locate this Ganuenta. Maybe not Krekalander though if Krekaland as in my above post, is Scandinavia. I don't think they ever refer to Nyhellenia as coming from Krekaland, just going to it. Yes, she lived on Walhallagara/Walcheren, 1600 BC: Now we will write about the War between the Burgtmaagden Kalta and Min-erva Near the southern mouth of the Rhine and the Scheldt there are seven islands, named after Frya's seven virgins of the week. In the middle of one island is the city of Walhallagara * (Middelburg), and on the walls of this city the following history is inscribed. Above it are the words "Read, learn, and watch." Five hundred and sixty-three years after the submersion of Atland—that is, 1600 years before Christ —a wise town priestess presided here, whose name was Min-erva—called by the sailors Nyhellenia. This name was well chosen, for her counsels were new and clear above all others. http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb26.htm#fn_32 I have now seen many dozens of maps depicting The Netherlands during Roman times and earlier periods, and that whole south west area (Zeeland province in The Netherlands) with the west coast of Belgium was creek-country. But things shifted a lot, and it could well be that at some point in time Walcheren was one of those 7 islands circumvented by real rivers, and that more to the south the land was dominated by lots of (tidal) creeks. And to get back to Ganventa/Ganuenta: there is still a possibility that it wasn't the name of the place on the north side (or west side, Domburg) of Walcheren, but that it was a city in England, the home of one of these people who dedicated a votive altar to Nehalennia and put the name of his English hometown on it too; there was a lot of trade going on between England and that port. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #693 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Just for interest's sake, here is the 21st December 2012 - John Jenkins says it's all to do with the planetary alignment in the Galactic Centre that sits in the Milky Way that will occur on this day, so this is what you will see from Mexico City at 1.40pm. Now, whether that meant anything to the ancient Mayans, I dunno... What I noticed is that at 21st Dec 2012BC the Sun and Winter Solstice were not on the Galactic Centre but had not arrived to it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 15, 2010 #694 Share Posted August 15, 2010 (edited) To cut things a bit short, you are saying that most of the locations mentioned in the OLB should be placed around the Baltic, yes? Or a lot similar like many before you have done who wanted to place the origins Homer's stories there. Well, I cannot deny that possibility, but like I said, the OLB would be an even greater mess than it already appears to be. And sorry, your star map is a bit confusing, lol. -- EDIT: Please don't mention this Mayan thing here. These socalled (major) conjunctions happen so often, that it is not important at all. If you want to find something about comets appearing in the 22th century BC, then I have a site that sums them all up (wait a minute). Edited August 15, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #695 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Puzz, I know you are here, posting, but I will answer following the order in which you posted: Yep, I know 'vik' is related to fjord and creek. But even though that is true, if you follow the sequence of tribes and peoples mentioned in the OLB (Marsaten, Landsaten and so on), then we have to look the south, and to a land with many creeks and islands like the Zeeland province as it was in ancient times; it seems a more likely candidate for Krekaland. If Krekaland was indeed the homeland of the Vikings, then the OLB would be even more in trouble: it's already called Schoonland, and it's in the north. Did you know, btw that, although some have interpretated Krekaland as Greece, others interpretated it as being Italy? Yes, just here playing with CyberSky... OK, so you think Krekaland might be in Zeeland area, is that the near and the far Krekalanders, like 2 lots? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 15, 2010 #696 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Yes, just here playing with CyberSky... OK, so you think Krekaland might be in Zeeland area, is that the near and the far Krekalanders, like 2 lots? OK, here's the site that mentioned a LOT of comets in ancient history (and you will notice this Barry Warmkessel also mentions my theory about a comet impacting west of Norway, causing the Storegga Slide and all the rest): It's in Google cache because it won't show up: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xRBZW2luXAIJ:barry.warmkessel.com/4related.html+comet+impact+tollmann+bolide+storegga&cd=1&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl === "Heinde Krekalander", that were the "nearby Krekalander", right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #697 Share Posted August 15, 2010 In order to make myself well understood, I must let alone for a while my account of the Scotch people, and write something about the near Krekalanders (Italians. The Krekalanders formerly belonged to us only, but from time immemorial descendants of Lyda and Finda have established themselves there. Of these last there came in the end a whole troop from Troy. Troy is the name of a town that the far Krekalanders (Greeks) had taken and destroyed. When the Trojans had nestled themselves among the near Krekalanders, with time and industry they built a strong town with walls and citadels named Rome, that is, p. 240 p. 241 [paragraph continues] Spacious. This part really does appear to be talking about Italy and the Etruscan troops from Troy. The near Krekalanders is referring (apparently) to Italy and then the far Krekalanders are the Greeks who took Troy. OK, so if these Krekalands are in Zeeland how that this make sense? Or could a troop from Troy settled in Zeeland calling it Rome? Or did Zeelanders take Troy? So, even though Krekalanders could be local, in context of the story, it really doesn't make much sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #698 Share Posted August 15, 2010 (edited) OK, here's the site that mentioned a LOT of comets in ancient history (and you will notice this Barry Warmkessel also mentions my theory about a comet impacting west of Norway, causing the Storegga Slide and all the rest): It's in Google cache because it won't show up: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:xRBZW2luXAIJ:barry.warmkessel.com/4related.html+comet+impact+tollmann+bolide+storegga&cd=1&hl=nl&ct=clnk&gl=nl === "Heinde Krekalander", that were the "nearby Krekalander", right? Thanks for that. Maybe if I find that English part I quoted above in the original and see what it says. Yes, I think so, heinde was nearby. It says heinda below. Here it is: Vmbe nw god for- stan to werthande , mot ik min telling vr that Skotse folk resta léta , and êwet fon tha hêinda Krékalanda skriva. Tha héinda Krékalanda havon vs to fara allêna to hêrath, men sunt vnhüglika tidum havon ra thér ak afterkvmanda fon Lyda and fon Finda nithërset , fon tha lersta kémon to tha lersta en êle hape fon Tróje. Tröje alsa Üeth éne stede hé- ten, thêr et folk fon tha fêre Krékalanda innomth and vr- homelt heth. Tha tha Trójana to tha héinda Krêkalandum nestled wêron , tha havon hja thêr mith tid and flit êne sterke stêd mith walla and burgum bvwed , Eome , http://www.archive.org/stream/thetoeralindabo01ottegoog/thetoeralindabo01ottegoog_djvu.txt It also has it in Dutch. Om nu goed verstaan te worden , moet ik mijn verhaal over het Schotsche volk laten rusten, en iets van de heinde Krekalanden (Italië) schqjven. De heinde Krekalanden hebben te voren ons alleen toebehoord, maar sedert onheugelijke tijden heb- ben zich daar ook nakomelingen van Lyda en Finda nedergezet , van deze laatsten kwamen eindelijk een heele hoop van Troje. Troja alzoo heeft eene stad geheeten , die het volk van de verre Krekalanden (Griekenland) heeft inge- nomen en verwoest. Toen de Trojanen in de heinde Kreka- landen genesteld waren , toen hebben zij daar met tijd en vlijt eene sterke stad met wallen en burgten gebouwd, Bome, dat 240 Rum , héten. Edited August 15, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #699 Share Posted August 15, 2010 Yes, around the Baltic but the reference to Krekalanders and Trojans has thrown me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 15, 2010 #700 Share Posted August 15, 2010 If they were at Marseilles I guess Italy would be Near. Does it even mean Creek landers? Could it mean Kreka as in people of Krak/Krek? Grekch. The Rhine does go all the way to Switzerland and they do say that Freyas people were all down the Rhine at one point so again Italy would, in that instance be near (ish). I don't necessarily WANT to place them there but everything says many of them come from there. The amber tears of the Heliades that shone like gold, these are not Greek stories by any stretch of the imagination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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