[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

Tröje alsa Üeth éne stede hé-

ten, thêr et folk fon tha fêre Krékalanda innomth and vr-

homelt heth.

Troja alzoo heeft eene stad geheeten , die

het volk van de verre Krekalanden (Griekenland) heeft inge-

nomen en verwoest. (Dutch one I gather...)

Troy is the name of a town that the far Krekalanders (Greeks) had taken and destroyed.

That is the 3 translations.

My question is the OLB top one says Troje alsa Ueth ene stede....

The next one says Troja alzoo heeft eene stad

English says: Troy is the name of

In the Dutch one Abe, why doesn't the word have a capital letter like Ueth, nor does the English...it's looks like it says Troy also Ueth (whatever or wherever Ueth is..)

Have you any idea what Ueth is?

I see heeft is has. (?)

Can you translate the Dutch sentence for me please Abe and tell me exactly how you read it?

Edited August 15, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Yes Piney, from what I gathered here and there is that this Elen or Helen is a lot older than the Elen as she shows up in the legend I mentioned.

Heh, your mother was named after her? My mother's full first name is Helena, lol.

The legend of Ys, hmm.... Of course there is always the possibility that a real island with some citadel or simply a city submerged; an island in the Channel or maybe somwhere in the southern North Sea. A city with a famous queen.. Who knows? I didn't check the myth, but I remember it was protected by some sort of dike, or flood gates?

I don't know if you know, but many cities/villages in the Zeeland province of The Netherlands (and of course, no especially on Walcheren island) were built as a socalled 'ringwalburg' or in English, a large enclosure made by a clay and stone ringwall in which people lived. Sometimes it had an artificial mound ("terp") on which the house of the king or chief was located. (I will try to add an example later).

These ringwalburgs were erected to protect people from the invading Vikings, not - as far as I know - to protect against the rising sea level. But not doubt it will have also protected the people living there during a storm surge.

And I do have to add that these ringwalburg were constructed in the early middle ages, not during or before the time of the Romans.

-

A ringwalburg near Zutphen (a city to the south of Friesland):

Middelburg (on Walcheren):

Restaurated part of a ringwalburg in Souburg (on Walcheren):

A sketch:

Alas, the one I saw online, the one with the terp in the middle, I couldn't find it anymore, but it was much larger than the ones I posted.

And the next is an impression of the city/port where the remnants of the temple of Nehalennia (and those votive altars) were found (Nehalennia's temple is in the middle):

.

I love the one at Zutphen.

There's an old tradition of them at Wasserburg, Germany, at the start of the Rhine, too, Wasserburg literally means water castle or water town.

I'm not talking medieval, I mean bronze age.

That is a fairly recent one but I have a picture of one here in my book that is from the Bronze Age in Wasserburg so I'd say that Water Castle we see here has been built up over much older ones, starting with a simple town.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserburg_am_Inn

[Abramelin]

In order to make myself well understood, I must let alone for a while my account of the Scotch people, and write something about the near Krekalanders (Italians. The Krekalanders formerly belonged to us only, but from time immemorial descendants of Lyda and Finda have established themselves there. Of these last there came in the end a whole troop from Troy. Troy is the name of a town that the far Krekalanders (Greeks) had taken and destroyed. When the Trojans had nestled themselves among the near Krekalanders, with time and industry they built a strong town with walls and citadels named Rome, that is,

p. 240 p. 241

[paragraph continues] Spacious.

This part really does appear to be talking about Italy and the Etruscan troops from Troy.

The near Krekalanders is referring (apparently) to Italy and then the far Krekalanders are the Greeks who took Troy.

OK, so if these Krekalands are in Zeeland how that this make sense? Or could a troop from Troy settled in Zeeland calling it Rome? Or did Zeelanders take Troy?

So, even though Krekalanders could be local, in context of the story, it really doesn't make much sense.

I just hop through your last posts, Puzz.

"but from time immemorial descendants of Lyda and Finda have established themselves there."

OK, so Lyda's people, the 'black Lybians' are now suddenly those who came from what we all know to be Lydia: an ancient kingdom in western Turkey.

Did they change from black people to white people through the centuries, or is there something wrong here.....?

The Lydians, according to the OLB were black people with curly hair, hmmm.

Maybe I must go on a holiday to Italy, but to me the Itaians look quite white. Lost of them (not all) with black or brown hair and brown eyes.

There are those who said that the OLB was not written by one person, but by several. And that just based on the many inconsistencies.

-

OK, so Krekaland was first nearby, and later it was far away.

Of course all this doesn't make sense: it's a mix of lots of ancient Greek legends, Latin legends, crappy etymology, local toponyms and local stories twisted and distorted to convenience, and so on.

[Abramelin]

I made sort of an overview of the people mentioned in the OLB, the part of the OLB, before 'the bad times came':

On one side their empire was enclosed by Wralda's Sea;

At the other side their empire was enclosed by Twiskland (dense forests, wild animals);

To the east their empire stretched out to the ends of the East Sea;

To the west it was bordered by the Middle Sea;

On all that area they had small rivers and even 12 larger ones;

At one time their people lived on every border of these streams, also the fields near the Rhine, from one end to the other;

Opposite Denmark an Jutland they had colonies with a burght-maiden (trade in copper, iron, tar and other things);

Opposite their former Westland they had Brittain and its tin lands. Place for exiles and criminals. Have their own burght maiden (travelled with them to Brittain);

Sailors and merchants had many depots in nearby Krekaland and in Lydia (here live black people);

Their land was far and wide, and so they had many names ;

East of Denmark they were called Juts (from 'jutten', collecting stuff from the beaches). Collected mostly amber;

Those living on the islands were called Lets because they lived alone/solitary (Dutch 'verLATEN' = alone);

All beach and shore dwellers from Denmark to the Sandfal (now Scheldt) were called Stjurar, Sekampar and Angelara.

Stjurar = sturers = stuurlieden =- sailors/seamen

Angelara = fishermen, they used angles/hooks to catch fish, never used nets;

From there to nearby Krekaland they were called Kadhemers (kad> kade>head/wall of harbour , hem = home) because they never sailed out (but stayed on shore, on the 'kade');

Those living in the higher 'marks' = areas/counties, near the Twisklands, were called Saxmanna , because they were always armed against wild animals and the Brittons

And then they had other names, like Landsaton, Marsata and Holtjefta Wodsata (Holt- or Woodsata)

My explanation:

Wralda's Sea is the North Sea

Twiskland is Germany

East Sea is the Baltic

Middle Sea is the Frisian Middle Zee (now reclaimed/ polders) in the Friesland province in The Netherlands

Former Westland is what's nowadays the Dutch province of Noord-Holland (part of it is still called West Friesland)

The Stjurar, Sekampar and Angelara lived at the coast between Denmark and the Scheldt. Maybe that's what were later the actual Frisians (Pliny's Sturii, Sicambri and Anglii, or maybe the Frisiavones and Frisii, or the whole lot together)

The Anglii are said to originate in Denmark, the Sturii were located around the area that later became the islands Texel and Terschelling. The Sekampar are maybe the Sicambri.

The Kadhemers were in what's now the province of Zuid-Holland (they don't go out much... they sit on their butt all day long, posting on UM). Maybe they are the same people as the Cananefaten and/or the Chatti

Then we get to Krekaland which I think is the Dutch province of Zeeland and/or north-west Flanders in Belgium

The Saxmanna were very probably the Batavians who were indeed a Saxon tribe that had split off from the Chatti in west Germany. They occupied the area between the Rhine and Maas, maybe from east of the North Sea coast to the eastern part of The Netherlands; they were well known as warriors;

Lydia would create a problem, unless we call the Gauls black from now on.

To give an idea of the location all these tribes, read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisiavones

history of Low Countries (in history of Low Countries: The Roman period)

...arrival of the Romans brought about a number of movements: the Batavi came to the area of the lower reaches of the Rhine, the Canninefates to the western coastal area of the mouth of the Rhine, the Marsaci to the islands of Zeeland, the Toxandri to the Campine (Kempenland), the Cugerni to the Xanten district, and the Tungri to part of the area originally inhabited by the Eburones.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/366437/Marsaci

It's a good way to develop a headache.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angles

http://tripatlas.com/Sicambri

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veleda

I don't expect you to go read Dutch, but maybe you could just scroll the next pdf, which is a speech/article of Ottema, 1846:

J.G. Ottema, 'Redevoering over het ontstaan der Zuiderzee,' De Vrije Fries 4 (1846) 183-214 [online beschikbaar].

http://www.friesgenootschap.nl/nederlands/dvfina.htm

It's his article for a newspaper in 1846, about the origins of the Zuiderzee (you know, Flevo lake, Almere, Zuiderzee). But he mentioned Pliny, Ptolemaeus, Tacitus, and several other old sources, including some of those old Frisian fabulators of the 17th and 16th centurty.... and where many of the ancient tribes and peoples in The Netherlands located.

Just so you know what information was available... 30 years before the OLB was published.

LOL, I had the funny insight that the authors of the OLB made it a bit easy for themselves: they used all of Ottema's work. Must have saved them a lot of searching for suitable sources.

===

The name "Katwijk" probably has its origins in the name of a Germanic tribe called the Chatten (Chatti). The Dutch word "wijk" means "area", so the name probably meant something like "the Chatti area".

Built during the reign of Emperor Claudius (41-54), the town's name was Lugdunum Batavorum. The town's name was later associated with the name of the city of Leiden, but this is now thought to be incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katwijk

Katwijk, in dialect , " Kattek/Kattik"

http://www.taalsleutel.nl/pages/plaatsnamen.php

Made me think of the OLB "Kadik".

.

Edited August 15, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

I just hop through your last posts, Puzz.

-

OK, so Krekaland was first nearby, and later it was far away.

No, there was 2 Krekalands. One was nearby - heinde or heinda in the OLB and one one far away - thêr et folk fon tha fêre Krékalanda see, that one is the FAR Krekalanders, not the nearby (heinda) Krekalanders. 2 peoples called Krekalanders. One is translating apparently to Italians - nearby ones and one seems to mean Greeks - far away ones.

Your list is good, I shall try and put one together too. I don't doubt that much of it is local but it does seem as though it indicates they travelled.

[The Puzzler]

Í do look to the myths and stories to see how history might have happened and where everyone comes from, if that's not thing, so be it, but the ancient Greeks did have an abundance of stories and accounts by writers of the day about many parts of these stories and myths. That Apollo came from this area is not that unusual, you say, but they copied Homer, are you sure Homer hasn't told us exactly what went down? It does seem as though Apollo and much more did come into Greece from these Northern lands.

Here is just a few references to people/Gods who were in contact with Hyperborea.

Heracles sought the golden-antlered hind of Artemis in Hyperborea. As the reindeer is the only deer species of which females bear antlers, this would suggest an arctic or subarctic region.

Reindeer antlered hind of Artemis, both Apollo and Artemis, the twins, were from Hyperborea as was fair-haired Leto, their mother.

Alone among the Twelve Olympians, Apollo was venerated among the Hyperboreans, the Hellenes thought: he spent his winter amongst them.[2] For their part the Hyperboreans sent mysterious gifts, packed in straw, which came first to Dodona and then were passed from person to person until they came to Apollo's temple on Delos (Pausanias). Abaris, Hyperborean priest of Apollo, was a legendary wandering healer and seer. Theseus visited the Hyperboreans, and Pindar transferred Perseus's encounter with Medusa there from its traditional site in Libya, to the dissatisfaction of his Alexandrian editors.

Mysterious gifts to Apollo's temple were sent from Hyperborea to Dodona to Delos. A healer and seer priest of Apollo, just like the description of the priests of Apollo at Troy. Theseus visited them and Pindar...well, maybe I should read more of his works.

You showed us how the circular set out was quite spherical in design. You might notice the mention of the SWAN drawn chariot, the Swan again, always from Northern Europe....

The ancient Greeks had a legend of Hyperborea, a land of perpetual sun beyond the “north wind”. Hecataeus (circa 500 BC) says that the holy place of the Hyperboreans, which was built “after the pattern of the spheres”, lay “in the regions beyond the land of the Celts” on “an island in the ocean.” According to popular accounts, the God Apollo’s temple at Delphi was founded by individuals from Hyperborea. The Greek lyric poet Alcaeus (600 BC) sang of the actual or mystical journey of Apollo to the land of the Hyperboreans:

O King Apollo, son of great Zeus, whom thy father did furnish forth at thy birth with golden headband and lyre of shell, and giving thee moreover a swan-drawn chariot to drive, would have thee go to Delphi… But nevertheless, once mounted, thou badest thy swans fly to the land of the Hyperboreans.

The wearing of a star-embroidered robe by the King and ‘Ruler of the World’ — the heavenly sphere serving as a symbol of the earthly one — is a custom that can be traced to the Hyperboreans. Embroidered in gold on blue silk were the figures of the sun, moon and stars. Such robes were worn by the kings of Ancient Rome and Julius Ceasar, as well as Augustus and the Roman Emperors.

Earthenware statuettes found in a grave in Yugoslavia show the ‘Hyperborean Apollo’ in a chariot drawn by swans. The god wears, on his neck and breast, yellow figures of the sun and stars; on his head is a rayed crown with a headband that has a zigzag pattern. His robe, which reaches to the ground, is dark blue with yellow designs.

http://www.newdawnmagazine.com/Articles/hyperborea.html and Hyperborea - Wiki

These things might mean zippo to you but to me the foundations of the Greeks are built on this and I do see an obvious link between the Nordic people spoken of in the OLB and the Greeks so it makes quite a bit of sense really when they talk of transferring these Goddesses and laws into Greece and is more than likely how it happened.

[The Puzzler]

Righto...is it in the translation of Ottema we see the mistakes?

Read these:

The first is the OLB and the second is Dutch (I think lol)

If you look in the first one and follow it through no where do I see anything resembling the words middle.se Mediterranean Sea or any such se., what I do see is a word that almost resembles Gravenhague to me..hoogdravend..where I have bolded it, I would be looking for the words middle.se or Med sea according to the Dutch translation, you can clearly see it after where they are talking about the East Sea Aster Sea and Ottema has put Mediterranean sea.

Êr thêre arge tid kêm was vs land that skênneste in

wralda. Svnne rês hager and thêr was sjelden frost. Anda

barna and trêjon waxton frügda and nochta , thêr nw vrlêrén

send. Among tha gars-sêdunr hedon wi navt alena keren ,

ljayer and blyde , men ak swete thêr lik gold blikte and that

man vndera svnnestrêla bakja kvste. Jêron ne wrde navt ne

telath, hwand that êne jêr was alsa blyd as et öthera. An

tha êne side wrdon wi thrvch Wr.aldas sê bisloten , hwêrvp

nên folk buta vs navt fara ne mochte nach kvnde. Anda

óre side wrden wi thrvch that brede Twiskland vmtunad ,

hwêr thrvch that Findaa folk navt kvma ne thvradon ,

fon ovira tichta walda and óvir it wilde kwik. By morne

paldon wi ovir it utei* ende thes aster-sê , by êvind an then

uitgevonden ; maar dat was zoo hoogdravend en vol met

franjes en krullen , dat de nakomelingen de beteekenis daar-

van spoedig verloren hebben. Naderhand hebben zij ons

schrift geleerd , met name de Finnen , de Thyriers en de

Krekalander. Maar zij wisten niet goed , dat het van het

Juni gemaakt was, en dat het daarom altijd moest geschre-

ven worden met de zon om. Bovendien wilden zij dat hun

schrift voor andere volken onleesbaar zoude wezen , omdat

zij altijd geheimnissen hebben. Zoodoende zijn zij zeer van

de wijs geraakt , dermate , dat de kinderen de schriften hun-

ner ouderen bezwaarlijk kunnen lezen; terwijl wij onze aller-

oudste schriften even gemakkelijk kunnen lezen als die, die

gisteren geschreven zijn.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Dit staat op alle burgten geschreven.

Eer de booze tijd kwam, was ons land het schoonste in

de wereld. De zon rees hooger en er was zelden vorst. Aan

de boomen en heesters groeiden vruchten en ooft, die nu ver-

loren zijn. Onder de grasplanten hadden wij niet alleen gerst,

haver en rogge , maar ook tarwe, die als goud blonk en die

men onder de zonnestralen kon bakken. De jaren werden

niet geteld , want het eene jaar was even vrolijk als het an-

dere; Aan de eene zijde werden wij door Wraldas zee be-

sloten , waarop geen volk behalve wij mocht varen , noch

konde. Aan de andere zijde werden wij door het breede

Twiskland (tusschenland , Duitschland) omtuind , waardoor

het volk van Finda niet durfde komen , wegens de dichte

wouden en het wild gedierte. Ten oosten paalden wij tot

het uiteinde der Oostzee , en ten westen aan de Middellandsche

middelsê , alsa wi buta tha littiga wel twelif grata swete

rinstrama hédon , vs thrvch Wr.alda jêven vmb vs land

elte to haldane and vmb vs wigandlik folk tha wêi to wisana

néi sina sê.

http://www.archive.org/stream/thetoeralindabo01ottegoog/thetoeralindabo01ottegoog_djvu.txt

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea, on which no one but us might or could sail; on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland (Tusschenland, Duitschland), through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts.

Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the East Sea, and westward to the Mediterranean Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#av

Edited August 16, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Righto...is it in the translation of Ottema we see the mistakes?

Read these:

The first is the OLB and the second is Dutch (I think lol)

If you look in the first one and follow it through no where do I see anything resembling the words middle.se Mediterranean Sea or any such se., what I do see is a word that almost resembles Gravenhague to me..hoogdravend..where I have bolded it, I would be looking for the words middle.se or Med sea according to the Dutch translation, you can clearly see it after where they are talking about the East Sea Aster Sea and Ottema has put Mediterranean sea.

Êr thêre arge tid kêm was vs land that skênneste in

wralda. Svnne rês hager and thêr was sjelden frost. Anda

barna and trêjon waxton frügda and nochta , thêr nw vrlêrén

send. Among tha gars-sêdunr hedon wi navt alena keren ,

ljayer and blyde , men ak swete thêr lik gold blikte and that

man vndera svnnestrêla bakja kvste. Jêron ne wrde navt ne

telath, hwand that êne jêr was alsa blyd as et öthera. An

tha êne side wrdon wi thrvch Wr.aldas sê bisloten , hwêrvp

nên folk buta vs navt fara ne mochte nach kvnde. Anda

óre side wrden wi thrvch that brede Twiskland vmtunad ,

hwêr thrvch that Findaa folk navt kvma ne thvradon ,

fon ovira tichta walda and óvir it wilde kwik. By morne

paldon wi ovir it utei* ende thes aster-sê , by êvind an then

uitgevonden ; maar dat was zoo hoogdravend en vol met

franjes en krullen , dat de nakomelingen de beteekenis daar-

van spoedig verloren hebben. Naderhand hebben zij ons

schrift geleerd , met name de Finnen , de Thyriers en de

Krekalander. Maar zij wisten niet goed , dat het van het

Juni gemaakt was, en dat het daarom altijd moest geschre-

ven worden met de zon om. Bovendien wilden zij dat hun

schrift voor andere volken onleesbaar zoude wezen , omdat

zij altijd geheimnissen hebben. Zoodoende zijn zij zeer van

de wijs geraakt , dermate , dat de kinderen de schriften hun-

ner ouderen bezwaarlijk kunnen lezen; terwijl wij onze aller-

oudste schriften even gemakkelijk kunnen lezen als die, die

gisteren geschreven zijn.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Dit staat op alle burgten geschreven.

Eer de booze tijd kwam, was ons land het schoonste in

de wereld. De zon rees hooger en er was zelden vorst. Aan

de boomen en heesters groeiden vruchten en ooft, die nu ver-

loren zijn. Onder de grasplanten hadden wij niet alleen gerst,

haver en rogge , maar ook tarwe, die als goud blonk en die

men onder de zonnestralen kon bakken. De jaren werden

niet geteld , want het eene jaar was even vrolijk als het an-

dere; Aan de eene zijde werden wij door Wraldas zee be-

sloten , waarop geen volk behalve wij mocht varen , noch

konde. Aan de andere zijde werden wij door het breede

Twiskland (tusschenland , Duitschland) omtuind , waardoor

het volk van Finda niet durfde komen , wegens de dichte

wouden en het wild gedierte. Ten oosten paalden wij tot

het uiteinde der Oostzee , en ten westen aan de Middellandsche

middelsê , alsa wi buta tha littiga wel twelif grata swete

rinstrama hédon , vs thrvch Wr.alda jêven vmb vs land

elte to haldane and vmb vs wigandlik folk tha wêi to wisana

néi sina sê.

http://www.archive.org/stream/thetoeralindabo01ottegoog/thetoeralindabo01ottegoog_djvu.txt

Before the bad time came our country was the most beautiful in the world. The sun rose higher, and there was seldom frost. The trees and shrubs produced various fruits, which are now lost. In the fields we had not only barley, oats, and rye, but wheat which shone like gold, and which could be baked in the sun’s rays. The years were not counted, for one was as happy as another.

On one side we were bounded by Wr-alda’s Sea, on which no one but us might or could sail; on the other side we were hedged in by the broad Twiskland (Tusschenland, Duitschland), through which the Finda people dared not come on account of the thick forests and the wild beasts.

Eastward our boundary went to the extremity of the East Sea, and westward to the Mediterranean Sea; so that besides the small rivers we had twelve large rivers given us by Wr-alda to keep our land moist, and to show our seafaring men the way to his sea.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#av

Puzz, I hope you see it yourself, but you have mixed things up while quoting; you mixed the original text with Dutch, and in another quote you mix two parts of the OLB text.

It's not Ottema who made a mistake, it's you, lol.

The word used in the original text (and using latin letters or else I can't post it here) of the OLB is "middel.se", pronounced "middle say" = Middel See (in Frisian) = Middel Sea (in English).

Btw, do you know what Ottema thought the Middel Sea was called during Roman times? It's "lacus Manarmanis" (according to the pdf I linked to earlier). So he sure knows the Middel Sea in Friesland - he talks about it's location in Friesland - , but he thinks the Romans gave it a different name.

[The Puzzler]

OK, silly me, I think I see what I did there, the site is all split up and it was hard to read...lol

OK, so middle.se is in the OLB I recall that now.

[Abramelin]

These things might mean zippo to you but to me the foundations of the Greeks are built on this and I do see an obvious link between the Nordic people spoken of in the OLB and the Greeks so it makes quite a bit of sense really when they talk of transferring these Goddesses and laws into Greece and is more than likely how it happened.

All you will be able to prove is that ancient Germanic and Celtic tribes and people were spread out all over Europe around 1500 BC or earlier, and that they were in contact with the people living down south, like in the Balkans and Italy.

But would that prove the OLB is true? Or would it mean that the OLB was created around this knowledge?

I keep repeating: most if not all you quoted from Greek and Latin sources was available to 19th century authors.

And not only that, they even read it in the original languages.

[The Puzzler]

If you think it's a modern fake, and the places can be found in the Netherlands and Frisia and very local in those areas - right - what is the point of the book do you think?

....To get others once translated into English to fall for it being Mediterranean set?

Where do you place Misselia of not as Marseilles?

[The Puzzler]

All you will be able to prove is that ancient Germanic and Celtic tribes and people were spread out all over Europe around 1500 BC or earlier, and that they were in contact with the people living down south, like in the Balkans and Italy.

But would that prove the OLB is true? Or would it mean that the OLB was created around this knowledge?

I keep repeating: most if not all you quoted from Greek and Latin sources was available to 19th century authors.

And not only that, they even read it in the original languages.

The earliest archaeological culture commonly accepted as Celtic, or rather Proto-Celtic, was the central European Hallstatt culture (ca. 800-450 BC), named for the rich grave finds in Hallstatt, Austria

See, that's the tricky thing, you can't prove the Celts were the ones who bought this into Greece because apparently they weren't around then, so who was around, well, people at the mouth of the Vistula, at the Helle peninsular, selling amber to the Greeks, who oddly enough have the name of the Aestii, associated with the Aesir, Gods who fought with iron, when the God Tyr ruled in Hel. To me Goddesses like Helle and the cloud nymph Nephele , Golden Fleeces, Aries, all came in from the North Sea.

That is pretty much exactly what the book is telling us happened, a people who were not actually Celts but seem much like them but earlier with the same Gods as Greece took on were introduced by these Northern people.

Edited August 16, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

The earliest archaeological culture commonly accepted as Celtic, or rather Proto-Celtic, was the central European Hallstatt culture (ca. 800-450 BC), named for the rich grave finds in Hallstatt, Austria

See, that's the tricky thing, you can't prove the Celts were the ones who bought this into Greece because apparently they weren't around then, so who was around, well, people at the mouth of the Vistula, at the Helle peninsular, selling amber to the Greeks, who oddly enough have the name of the Aestii, associated with the Aesir, Gods who fought with iron, when the God Tyr ruled in Hel. To me Goddesses like Helle and the cloud nymph Nephele , Golden Fleeces, Aries, all came in from the North Sea.

That is pretty much exactly what the book is telling us happened, a people who were not actually Celts but seem much like them but earlier with the same Gods as Greece took on were introduced by these Northern people.

OK, so I should not have said Germanic and Celtic tribes, but it was long thought (and I think in centuries) - based on ancient accounts and legends from the Romans and Greek, that people from the Med were in contact with people from the north of their countries.

Amber is only found in the Baltic and in the North Sea, and the Romans, Greeks and Egyptians loved the stuff, and used it for their juwelry. This was also a known fact, centuries ago.

So, still nothing new.

--

EDIT:

Germanic and Celtic tribes were around, but theywere not called that way.

The name 'Celtic' is a quite recent name for these guys. But that doesn't mean they didn't live in Europe millennia ago.

And even Tacitus says the Germans had only recently adopted that name. Their tribes had many names, but they started to call themselves "German" after the name of just one Germanic tribe, a tribe whose name alone was able to scare the s*** out of people (after that tribe had annihilated some enemy).

.

.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

The origins of the Frisians lie in an area that roughly covers South Scandinavia, Denmark and the Weser/Oder region. In the period between 1750 and 700 B.C. they were still part of a larger group of peoples called the Germanics. This larger group was of the mainly of the Nordic race (dolichocranic). (Among the Nordics there also lived a -smaller- group of brachycranics whom probably had the position of slave.

After 1400 B.C. an expansion of the Germanics into southern Europe took place.

Around 800 B.C. the original Germanic group had split into a West-, East- (Goths and Vandals) and North Germanic group (Scandinavians). The differences can be traced in language and culture. At the end of the Bronze Age (700 B.C.) the expansion of the West Germanics had reached the coastal areas of northwest Germany (currently the province Hanover).

The West Germanics can be divided, along religious lines, into three tribegroups, the Inguaeones, Istuaeones and Irminones. The Frisians belong to the Inguaeones. The name Inguaevones is derived from the god Inguz; the Frisians believed they descended from him. Inguz is another name for the Germanic god Freyr. Other tribes belonging to the Inguaeones were, the Jutes, Warns, Angles, and the Saxons. Of these tribes the Saxons were closest in kin to the Frisians. All Inguaeones lived in the coastal areas along the North Sea. The Chaukians, also a tribe that lived along the North Sea, belong to the Irminones.

From north-west Germany, to be exact the coastal areas around the mouths of the rivers Eems and Weser, the Inguaeones colonized the coastal clay-districts of the current Dutch provinces of Friesland and Groningen (700 - 600 B.C.).

The Heathen period in Friesland (700 B.C. - 800 A.D.)

So between 700 and 600 B.C. the forefathers of the Frisians colonized the coastal clay-districts of the current Dutch provinces of Friesland and Groningen.

The largest group came from the Eems/Weser region. Later also people came from the higher sandy regions to the east of Friesland (currently called Drenthe).

Between 700 and 400 B.C. one can't speak of a separate Frisian group, since there is still one homogenic culture between Texel (Netherlands) and the Weser (Germany).

Between 400 and 200 B.C. significant cultural changes take place. From Leiden in the south to Delfzijl in the north a 'Proto-Frisian' culture was evolving. In 200 B.C. a distinctly Frisian culture can be found between the river Eems (Germany) and Wijk-bij-Duurstede (Netherlands). For the first time the Frisians are an ethnic entity!

To the north of the Eems lives a tribe called the Chaukians. An interesting fact is that the Chaukians belonged mainly to the Falian race (Dolichocranic with a broad face). The Frisians mainly to the Nordic race (Dolichocranic with narrow face). In the region currently known as the province of Groningen there was a melting together of both races.

There was also a small group of brachycranic people living among the Nordic Frisians, of a non-Germanic origin. They inhabited the Netherlands before the Germanic-invasion, and were probably of pre-Indogermanic origin.

http://www.boudicca.de/frisian1.htm

I think the history of the Frisians can go back very far, when they were the Germanic people of the Nordic Bronze Age.

Who built Stonehenge?

Funny this part I thought, considering...

Mount Killaraus is a legendary mountain in Ireland, most famous for being the source of the stones of Stonehenge in Arthurian legend.

Geoffrey of Monmouth records the story in his Historia Regum Britanniae. He describes how Aurelius Ambrosius returned from his exile in Brittany and burnt Vortigern in his tower. Rallying the Britons, he triumphed over the Saxon invaders and executed their leader, Hengist. Following the victory he decided to set up a great memorial to his triumph at a place called Mount Ambrius. When his carpenters and masons were unable to come up with a suitable awe-inspiring design, Ambrosius commissioned Merlin to create one.

Merlins solution was to import a stone circle called the Giant's Round from its home atop Mount Killaraus. Giants from Africa had originally brought the stones to Killaraus. They would pour water over the stones and use it to fill baths in which they cured their sick. Uther Pendragon went with 15,000 men to retrieve the stones but they proved too heavy to move. Laughing, Merlin transported them to Salisbury Plain using his magic and set them up just as they were. According to Geoffrey, they have stood there ever since as Stonehenge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Killaraus

Giants from Africa hey? ....I'd say they would be black, curiouser and curiouser.

Edited August 16, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Without getting all Black supremecy or any such rubbish I will make mention of a few things about blacks in England:

Blacks being the original race once occupied virtually every corner of the globe. Britain was no exception. The Grimaldi African man is known to have occupied Europe in ancient times. Blacks have been living in Britain from prehistoric times to the present era.

Irish tradition tells of a giant-like race of Africans headed by a king with a retinue of priests called Fomorians. They were depicted as gloomy sea giants who brought their skills from Africa via Spain.

The original Celtic priesthood were Blacks. The White Druids had nothing to do with the construction of Stonehenge since it predated their emergence by several centuries.

The Roman historian, Tacitus, mentioned "the dark complexion and unusually curly hair" of the Silures, or Black Celts who he believed migrated there from Spain. When Julius Caesar invaded Britain he met these Blacks. Julius Caesar's army was itself composed of prominent Blacks. In fact Blacks have served as Roman emperors on a number of occasions.

The Scots are themselves of Black origin. Ireland was once known as Scotia Magna and Scotland was called Caledonia until about the third century A.D. when a tribe invaded Caledonia and the name was changed to Scotia. The Irish are said to have derived the name Scotia from the daughter of an Egyptian Pharaoh named Scota.

The construction of Stonehenge has been attributed to giants who sailed from Africa bringing their skills with them. The presence of giants may not necessarily be a figment of the imagination. Giants have been mentioned in the Bible. There was a Black Canaanite race called Anakim. When the Black Hebrews first saw them they realized how small they were themselves: "And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight.” (Numbers 13:33).

We have been over Scota but that is not all that is mentioned, what I was looking for is reference to these blacks who might have built Stonehenge.

These bits caught my eye the most:

Irish tradition tells of a giant-like race of Africans headed by a king with a retinue of priests called Fomorians. They were depicted as gloomy sea giants who brought their skills from Africa via Spain.

The Roman historian, Tacitus, mentioned "the dark complexion and unusually curly hair" of the Silures, or Black Celts who he believed migrated there from Spain.

Fomorians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

These people could be known as the Silures:

According to Tacitus's biography of Agricola, the Silures usually had a dark complexion and curly hair. Due to their appearance, Tacitus hinted that they may have crossed over from Spain at an earlier date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silures

Lyda's people, possibly. The Black Celts.

[Abramelin]

The origins of the Frisians lie in an area that roughly covers South Scandinavia, Denmark and the Weser/Oder region. In the period between 1750 and 700 B.C. they were still part of a larger group of peoples called the Germanics. This larger group was of the mainly of the Nordic race (dolichocranic). (Among the Nordics there also lived a -smaller- group of brachycranics whom probably had the position of slave.

After 1400 B.C. an expansion of the Germanics into southern Europe took place.

Around 800 B.C. the original Germanic group had split into a West-, East- (Goths and Vandals) and North Germanic group (Scandinavians). The differences can be traced in language and culture. At the end of the Bronze Age (700 B.C.) the expansion of the West Germanics had reached the coastal areas of northwest Germany (currently the province Hanover).

The West Germanics can be divided, along religious lines, into three tribegroups, the Inguaeones, Istuaeones and Irminones. The Frisians belong to the Inguaeones. The name Inguaevones is derived from the god Inguz; the Frisians believed they descended from him. Inguz is another name for the Germanic god Freyr. Other tribes belonging to the Inguaeones were, the Jutes, Warns, Angles, and the Saxons. Of these tribes the Saxons were closest in kin to the Frisians. All Inguaeones lived in the coastal areas along the North Sea. The Chaukians, also a tribe that lived along the North Sea, belong to the Irminones.

From north-west Germany, to be exact the coastal areas around the mouths of the rivers Eems and Weser, the Inguaeones colonized the coastal clay-districts of the current Dutch provinces of Friesland and Groningen (700 - 600 B.C.).

The Heathen period in Friesland (700 B.C. - 800 A.D.)

So between 700 and 600 B.C. the forefathers of the Frisians colonized the coastal clay-districts of the current Dutch provinces of Friesland and Groningen.

The largest group came from the Eems/Weser region. Later also people came from the higher sandy regions to the east of Friesland (currently called Drenthe).

Between 700 and 400 B.C. one can't speak of a separate Frisian group, since there is still one homogenic culture between Texel (Netherlands) and the Weser (Germany).

Between 400 and 200 B.C. significant cultural changes take place. From Leiden in the south to Delfzijl in the north a 'Proto-Frisian' culture was evolving. In 200 B.C. a distinctly Frisian culture can be found between the river Eems (Germany) and Wijk-bij-Duurstede (Netherlands). For the first time the Frisians are an ethnic entity!

To the north of the Eems lives a tribe called the Chaukians. An interesting fact is that the Chaukians belonged mainly to the Falian race (Dolichocranic with a broad face). The Frisians mainly to the Nordic race (Dolichocranic with narrow face). In the region currently known as the province of Groningen there was a melting together of both races.

There was also a small group of brachycranic people living among the Nordic Frisians, of a non-Germanic origin. They inhabited the Netherlands before the Germanic-invasion, and were probably of pre-Indogermanic origin.

http://www.boudicca.de/frisian1.htm

I think the history of the Frisians can go back very far, when they were the Germanic people of the Nordic Bronze Age.

Who built Stonehenge?

Funny this part I thought, considering...

Mount Killaraus is a legendary mountain in Ireland, most famous for being the source of the stones of Stonehenge in Arthurian legend.

Geoffrey of Monmouth records the story in his Historia Regum Britanniae. He describes how Aurelius Ambrosius returned from his exile in Brittany and burnt Vortigern in his tower. Rallying the Britons, he triumphed over the Saxon invaders and executed their leader, Hengist. Following the victory he decided to set up a great memorial to his triumph at a place called Mount Ambrius. When his carpenters and masons were unable to come up with a suitable awe-inspiring design, Ambrosius commissioned Merlin to create one.

Merlin’s solution was to import a stone circle called the Giant's Round from its home atop Mount Killaraus. Giants from Africa had originally brought the stones to Killaraus. They would pour water over the stones and use it to fill baths in which they cured their sick. Uther Pendragon went with 15,000 men to retrieve the stones but they proved too heavy to move. Laughing, Merlin transported them to Salisbury Plain using his magic and set them up just as they were. According to Geoffrey, they have stood there ever since as Stonehenge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Killaraus

Giants from Africa hey? ....I'd say they would be black, curiouser and curiouser.

Yes, all known.

But jeesh, "giants from Africa" and all that.... what are you drinking, Puzz?

[Abramelin]

Without getting all Black supremecy or any such rubbish I will make mention of a few things about blacks in England:

Blacks being the original race once occupied virtually every corner of the globe. Britain was no exception. The Grimaldi African man is known to have occupied Europe in ancient times. Blacks have been living in Britain from prehistoric times to the present era.

Irish tradition tells of a giant-like race of Africans headed by a king with a retinue of priests called Fomorians. They were depicted as gloomy sea giants who brought their skills from Africa via Spain.

The original Celtic priesthood were Blacks. The White Druids had nothing to do with the construction of Stonehenge since it predated their emergence by several centuries.

The Roman historian, Tacitus, mentioned "the dark complexion and unusually curly hair" of the Silures, or Black Celts who he believed migrated there from Spain. When Julius Caesar invaded Britain he met these Blacks. Julius Caesar's army was itself composed of prominent Blacks. In fact Blacks have served as Roman emperors on a number of occasions.

The Scots are themselves of Black origin. Ireland was once known as Scotia Magna and Scotland was called Caledonia until about the third century A.D. when a tribe invaded Caledonia and the name was changed to Scotia. The Irish are said to have derived the name Scotia from the daughter of an Egyptian Pharaoh named Scota.

The construction of Stonehenge has been attributed to giants who sailed from Africa bringing their skills with them. The presence of giants may not necessarily be a figment of the imagination. Giants have been mentioned in the Bible. There was a Black Canaanite race called Anakim. When the Black Hebrews first saw them they realized how small they were themselves: "And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. (Numbers 13:33).

We have been over Scota but that is not all that is mentioned, what I was looking for is reference to these blacks who might have built Stonehenge.

These bits caught my eye the most:

Irish tradition tells of a giant-like race of Africans headed by a king with a retinue of priests called Fomorians. They were depicted as gloomy sea giants who brought their skills from Africa via Spain.

The Roman historian, Tacitus, mentioned "the dark complexion and unusually curly hair" of the Silures, or Black Celts who he believed migrated there from Spain.

Fomorians: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians

These people could be known as the Silures:

According to Tacitus's biography of Agricola, the Silures usually had a dark complexion and curly hair. Due to their appearance, Tacitus hinted that they may have crossed over from Spain at an earlier date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silures

Lyda's people, possibly. The Black Celts.

Yeah, I have talked about the Fomorians so many times, I would like to forget about them, lol.

But it is said they lived in Ireland long before the later Celtics, and may have been a remnant of the originla Mesolithic inhabitants.

Oh, and forget about the ´giant´ thing...

OK, so now we have ´Black Celts`.

Well, so forget about Africa and black people, think black hair, black or brown eyes.

That´s what I said like pages ago.

And have you also thought about the Romans who invaded the territories of the Frisians, some 2000 years ago?

You know, Romans, living in `Heinde Krekaland´?

I did...

Edited August 16, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Hmm, I expected you would have jumped on the last sentence of my former post with another bucket full of information.

Anyway, these "Heinde Krekalanders", the Romans, were here in The Netherlands, around 2000 years ago, and stayed here for a couple of centuries.

They left lots of traces, like Roman reports, but also 'castelliae', and 'forae', and all that spaghetti.

Well, one of the most famous (and mysterious) Roman remnants is the "Britten Burg" near Katwijk.

Most sources will tell you that "Britten Burg" or Brittenburg is nothing but a Roman castaellium, fortress, whatever, on the west coast of The Netherlands, near Katwijk.

Some have said it had 2 defending walls, and so was nothing like any Roman fortress.

I don't know, I wasn't there.

OK, click the Wiki link, and read about it (it's a hoot, read about Calligula): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brittenburg

But then I found a site created by someone only interested in anything "Brittenburg"...

The Brittenburg or Huis te Britten is a Viking (Danish) castle, built in 810 in the mouth of the river Rhine by the Danish King Godfred (Gotrik). Similar castles have been built in the mouth of the River Maas at Witla (now sunken) and in the mouth of the river Schelde at Antwerp, which still exists, called Het Steen. The Danish castle probably has been built on the remnants of a Roman lighthouse (pharus), for which the lighthouse of Ostia (and the Pharos of Alexandria) modelled. The article in Dutch language describes the set of punishment measures against the conquered Frisian inhabitants, including a rather peculiar method of debt payment by throwing 'shilling' coins in a Viking shield, the obligation of building houses and churches with small doors to the North or East and the obligation of wearing wooden necklases. See Burcht van Gotrikhttp://www.brittenburg.net/index.php?page=Doc834

The next is in Dutch, but I will give something of a translation:

Hoewel de vuurtoren op de kust enorme afmetingen had - de oppervlakte van het gebouw was groter dan die van het Paleis op de Dam en de vuurtoren was met zijn 55-60 meter hoogte zeker ook hoger - het was maar een vuurtoren en misschien een vooruitgeschoven wachtpost om vriendelijke en vijandige schepen te signaleren. Burchten werden veroverd, verwoest, in brand gestoken bij wisseling van de macht of als strafmaatregel, maar vuurtorens werden gespaard, omdat ze ook voor de nieuwe machthebbers van belang waren. Toch hadden vuurtorens op zeeniveau het ook zwaar te verduren door hevige stormen en hoge zee, waardoor ze veel averij opliepen en soms zelfs instortten. Dat zal ook het lot van de Brittenburg (vuurtoren) geweest zijn, tot men na de verzanding van de riviermond besloot een kleinere vuurtoren met een zelfde reikwijdte op het duin te bouwen. Voor geschied- en kroniekschrijvers was het niet interessant om over een vuurtoren te schrijven. Die was er alleen voor om schippers bij te lichten om de riviermond te vinden, overdag te zien aan een ver dragende rookpluim, bij nacht en ontij aan het schijnsel van de vierboet

Transl:

It's mostly about a huge ligthhouse, 180 feet tall. The Roman one got destroyed by the sea, but later people built a new one, a smaller one.

http://www.brittenburg.net/index.php?page=Doc230

Now read this: (damn I will have to edit this again, I lost the link).

On the site I linked to someone tries his/her best to etymologically link Brittenburg to a "Friezenburg".

And s/he never even mentiones the OLB.

--

EDIT:

Found it:

Friezenburcht

Ten noorden van de (Oude) Rijn heeft zich een andere klankwijziging voorgedaan, namelijk de labiale *br > *fr en *d/t > *s. Dit heeft geleid tot *frd, *frs, hetgeen we terugvinden in Frisia, Frisones, Frisii, Fresia, Fresones, Friesland, Frislandt, enz. maar ook in *frt > *frd > *vrd Fridtenburg, Vredenburg (zowel een van de door Adrianus Pars vermelde namen voor de Brittenburg - zie hierboven - als voor de Utrechtse (Friese) wijk Vredenburg. Op etymologische gronden zouden we de Brittenburg dus ook kunnen aanduiden als Friezenburg, dat wil zeggen Burcht in het gebied van de Friezen.

http://www.brittenburg.net/index.php?page=Doc305&print=1

Translation:

At the north of the (old) Rhine a shift occured: the labial *br > *fr en *d/t > *s. This led to *frd, *frs, which we can find back in Frisia, Frisones, Frisii, Fresia, Fresones, Friesland, Frislandt, and so on, but also in *frt > *frd > *vrd Fridtenburg, Vredenburg (both a name mentioned by Adrianus Pars for Brittenburg - see above) - as for the Utrecht (Frisian) district called Vredenburg. On etymological grounds we could call Brittenburg "Friezenburg", which means "Burght in the land of the Frisians".

Seems quite desparate to me, but this person didn't even think of the OLB.

.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

OK, NOW I want you to quote something from Alewyn's book, and not give me another round of proof of your addiction to Greek myths.

This thread is about HIS book, and many here want to read about what HE had to say.

Soooo, you quote somethimg from his book, something that intrigues you, and then we will discuss THAT.

How about that for a change?

It's not that I mind all your quotes from Greek sources with which you vageley 'prove' that there is more to the OLB than many skeptics are willing to believe.

But to me it appears you are in some kind of 'groove', and that you are not willing - What did I say? Willing? No 10 horses could drag you from your track - to get on topic.

Oh, yeah, I know you will say that you quote these Greek and Roman sources to prove "YOUR" point. But it's not your point we are discussing here, remember??

OK, quote from Alewyn's book please. You have it for 3 weeks now.

.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

Hi Puzzler,

For the past few weeks I have been on a camping vacation a million miles from civilization with no access to internet or even electricity. I came back and did a quick scan of the debate which is, to my understanding, about the authenticity of the Oera Linda Book.

What I find difficult to understand is that you are still trying to re-invent the wheel lol. I am quite convinced that you will find many leads and answers to your questions in "Survivors of the great Tsunami" which you have now had for almost a month. I would respectfully like to suggest that you read "Survivors..." and then focus on the pertinant points of agreement or disagreement as you like. At least it should give some structure to the discussion as the book examines the Oera Linda Book in chronological order.

The problem I have with Greek (and other) Mythology is that it is very difficult to decide what is based on fact and what is pure fiction. From my interpretation of the Oera Linda Book in "Survivors..." I believe the problem is largely solved. Whilst your threats are interesting, they are also sometimes very confusing in that you appear to wander off into unrelated topics. In this way we shall never be able to come to a conclusion.

Some examples: The Phocaceans (if that is the spelling) are not Homer's Phaeacians (Frisians) and have really nothing to do with the Oera Linda Book. The Pelasgics denote "Sea People" and were of "Ionic Blood" and spoke a "Barbarous Language" (Herodotus)- exactly what the Oera Linda Book says.

Regards,

Alewyn

[SlimJim22]

Yo Alewyn, I'll be honest I have not bought your book yet and have found a lot of the research into OLB as undigestable. Not having a good background in germanic or frisian history I found it rather difficult.

However, I just found a really good site. It has a breakdown of the germanic tribes of the dark ages and this on the OLB.

There exists one very old Frisian manuscript named the Oera Linda book. It's forewords were written in AD 1256, although its main section was a diary kept about 2000 years, which was put together 560-558 BC. The authenticity of the Oera Linda Book has not been proved nor disproved. There is even evidence that most parts of the book are based on ancient events regarding the Lowlands of Europe.

Prove of this we can find in the writings and retellings of the writings of Homer, Strabo, Tachitus and even in Celts and German histories. Against the prevailing opinion of Historians, there are many reasons to believe that "The Oera Linda Book" is one of the most important books about European history from about 3000 BC to at least to about 500 BC. Although the last chapter - actually the first chapter - of it was written 1256 AD, it was composed to its preserved parts form 803 AD.

The most important part of it - "The Book of Adela's Followers" - was written from 560 BC to 558 BC, but was based on notes that had been kept at least 2000 years. When we compare the story in "The Oera Linda Book" with other stories which occurred in the same time (about 2,200 BC) in the Middle East (Egypt and Mesopotamia) we can't deny that the occurrences must be based on reality. From our point of view, the most important single event described in it was the destruction of Atland *, which happened 2194 BC.

* In my opinion is Atland not the same as Atlantis, believed by many historians, but the middle and south part of the present North Sea. There is evidence that Great Britain and Europe were once one continent in the past with a delta between present Belgian, Dutch and British coast. The river Rhine in the lowlands was at that time connected with the Themes river near London or possibly the Tyre river near New Castle in North-Humbria England.. In 2194 BC the swampy North-sea, with several islands, till that time an inner sea, became an open sea due to the breakthrough of the waters from the south (Atlantic ocean) of the present Strait of Dover between England and Northern France, during this inundation England was separated from the mainland of Europe and many islands, including Atland, were permanently inundated.

The North Sea is at present day still a shallow sea (between 30 and 130 meters deep). In the Dutch territory of the North Sea there are still several Sandbanks (The Brown Ridge, The Netherlands), The Hinder Ridges (Belgium and France), The Doggers ridge (England, The Netherlands and Denmark) and others, on witch once trees grew, most of them were once inhabited too. In my opinion was Atland situated in the present North Sea and sunk in a period of global catastrophic events around 2,200 BC.

The whole Oera Linda Book you can read on my Ancient history website HERE.

Rulers of the Frisians, after the submersion of Altland, mentioned in the Oera Linda Book

2194 BC submersion of Altland. Frisian Folk Mothers : Frya 2194-2145 BC, the traditional founder of the Frisian Commonwealth, Fasta, Medea c. 2013 BC, Thiania, Hellenia, Minna 1631-1621 BC, Rosamond c. 1621 BC, Hellicht ?-590 BC, Frana 590-559 BC. After Frana, the authority of the folk mothers collapses.

A period of division follows, with no clear Frisian rulers apparent. Adela De facto ruler ?-306 BC, Gosa 306-270 BC, eventually ruled jointly with the first king of Frisia, Friso.

http://dordrechthistory.info/Holland/holland1.htm

It's funny because I remember you mentioning the date of 2,194bce and today I found reference to a impact at around that time. It was not from a credible source but their may be some truth to it. It is the site of lake Umal in Iraq. There is a link to it on the sumerian thread on the conspiracies board. Anyway the article claimed the crater had straight edges like it was a spaceship but that is irrelavnt. What is interesting is that it was claimed as a bolid meteor from the comet Enke. I figure that if this were true then there couldn have been other impacts at the same time. You may have covered it in your book but the site is well worth a read. Have a good one.

Edited August 16, 2010 by SlimJim22

[The Puzzler]

Hmm, I expected you would have jumped on the last sentence of my former post with another bucket full of information.

Nah I went to bed, seems everything I post is a waste of my time really.

Edited August 16, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Nah I went to bed, seems everything I post is a waste of my time really.

You didnt even respond to Alewyn's post, the guy who is the sole reason this thread came into existence.

You are wasting your time, yes, because you are not talking about Alewyn's book, the topic of this thread.

You do have his book for a couple of weeks, but you just go on and on about leads to connections between the Greek and the people from the Baltic.

It should be easy: you read something in his book, you quote it, and then you post it, and make it a point of discussion.

[Abramelin]

Jim, you said:

"Prove of this we can find in the writings and retellings of the writings of Homer, Strabo, Tachitus and even in Celts and German histories."

That is not proof. The guys who wrote the OLB knew of all these ancient writers.

[The Puzzler]

You didnt even respond to Alewyn's post, the guy who is the sole reason this thread came into existence.

You are wasting your time, yes, because you are not talking about Alewyn's book, the topic of this thread.

You do have his book for a couple of weeks, but you just go on and on about leads to connections between the Greek and the people from the Baltic.

It should be easy: you read something in his book, you quote it, and then you post it, and make it a point of discussion.

Keep your hat on, I'll get to it.