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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


Riaan

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There are a number of legends about the Delphic Sibyl, though they are not necessarily all consistent. One claims is that her last prophecy was said to be the birth of Jesus Christ.[citation needed] Pausanias claimed (10.14.1) that the Sibyl was "born between man and goddess, daughter of sea monsters and an immortal nymph". Others said she was the sister or daughter of Apollo.

The Sibyl came from the Troad to Delphi before the Trojan War, "in wrath with her brother Apollo", lingered for a time at Samos, visited Claros and Delos, and died in the Troad, after surviving nine generations of men. After her death, it was said that she became a wandering voice that still brought to the ears of men tidings of the future wrapped in dark riddles.

Like I said, these people also built Troy.

There is an obvious link in Lemnos with the Phoenicians and Etruscans and Etruscans have 1000 times as many writings in the Aegean and Med. than Greeks. This Etruscan/Phoenicians alliance came into the Aegean and settled on the coasts of Turkey, around Lemnos, Phoenicians were the first on Thera after the eruption.

This all tranferred into Greece via taking Troy. The people of Poseidon, the sailors, the Achaeans settled exactly where the Hittite records have them and this area became Ionian. The Ionians of WESTERN Greece settled it, people who became Athenians.

When you look into it, the Athenians don't do much until about 550BC, then they start overhauling Athens and building everything. The people who became Athenians though have a very long history as sailors imo. Not from Athens, but from Corinth and into the Aegean to Turkey via Crete and then into Athens as Dorians. The return, see, the Heracleids were there once, in the time of Tyndareus, from when Heracles was King of Sparta, Tyndareus, father of Helen, was only a minder - while Heracles went off on his exploits - then his sons end up in Thessaly at the Centaur party, where they save the Lapinths from these beastly long haired horse riding barbarians that stole women, which of course, made it's way onto the Parthenon, a defining moment in Athenian history, when Athenians refrained from being barbarians.

Rhodes was a changeover point - everything taken into Rhodes by these early Athenians - Phocaeans - Phaeaceans - went into Syria and then this is where the intermingling of Asiatic Gods comes into Greece, like Dionysus, the youngest Greek God, who took Hestia's place in the big 12.

Dionysus is Father Liber, a liberator, which then tranfers back to the Frisians and the French.

Look carefully at this mirror:

Deities.GIF

What do you see in it of the Etruscans the same as France has as their own symbols?

I'll tell you, the Fleur-de-lis and the Ermine they are wearing, distinctive by the little black stripes on the white fur.

This is not crazy as the Franks themselves, ancestors of the French, do actually make a claim they are decsended from Trojans.

The Frankish mythology that has survived in primary sources is comparable to that of the Aeneas and Romulus myths take in Roman mythology, but altered to suit Germanic tastes. Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks told a founding myth story to explain their connection with peoples of classical history. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late 4th century AD at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Francs, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

Frankish mythology, by the way, contains most of the God/esses that tranfer through to me in the OLB book. I say Tyr is Heracles but also a form of God (Dyeus) and a bringer of justice in a warrior type.

Echoes of Frankish paganism arise in the primary sources, but their meaning is not always clear. Modern scholars vary widely about the interpretation, but it is likely that Frankish paganism shared most of its characteristics with the other varieties of Germanic paganism, such as placing altars in forest glens, on hilltops, or besides lakes and rivers, and consecrating woods.[1] Generally, some pagan gods were associated with local cult centres and their sacred character and power were associated with specific regions, outside of which they were neither worshipped nor feared.[2] Other deities were known and feared and shared by cultures and tribes, although in different names and variations. Of the latter, the Franks may have had one omnipotent god Allfadir ("All Father"), thought to have lived in a sacred grove. Germanic peoples may have gathered where they believed him to live, and sacrificed a human life to him.[3]

Variants of the phrase All Father (like Allfadir) usually refer to Wuotan (Wodin, Odhinn), and the Franks probably believed in Wuoton as "chief" of blessings, whom the first historian Tacitus called "Mercurius", and his consort Freia[4], as well as Donar (Thor), god of thunder, and Zio (Tyr), whom Tacitus called "Mars". According to Herbert Schutz, most of their gods were "worldly", possessing form and having concrete relation to earthly objects, in contradistinction to the transcendent God of Christianity.[2] Tacitus also mentioned a goddess Nerthus being worshipped by the Germanic people, in whom Perry thinks the Franks may have shared a belief.[5] With the Germanic groups along the North Sea the Franks shared a special dedication to the worship of Yngvi, synonym to Freyr, whose cult can still be discerned in the time of Clovis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_mythology

So, the French carry the symbolism of Troy all through, through the Etruscans..even down to Paris, the captial of France, from Freedom, that Hector of Troy is on their Playing Card deck as the Jack of Diamonds...freedom, liberty, liber, Dionysus, the newest God into Greece, nurtured in Asia Minor by the Mother Goddess, who saved Ariadne from Naxos when Theseus deserted her, Dionysus, who went into India, born of the Moon, Selene, not a Sun God.

Achilles calls Agamemon a wine-bibber. Agamemon is not of Achilles people. Agamemnon, the treasurer remember, comes into Greece from Asia Minor, marries a local girl and becomes powerful as does his brother.

See the mirror again:

See Agamemnon shaking hands with Helen, sealing his brothers deal to marry her?

They are both wearing Ermine. I say Tinia is Tyndareus. Agamemnon is wearing it too as he is part of this Kingdom. Only by marriage.

You can also see a Swan and an Assyrian type Sphinx. Heracles holds Eros, which appears to be a plan with Helen's parents (Turan and Tinia) to make the marriage plans made below fall through. Or a test.

This doesn't really fit Homer's story but it does fit history much better. In fact, I will say that the Greek myths developed from Etruscan ones, not the other way around.

Aries is Mars. Mars Thingus. That is a judicial assembly. The Mount of Aries in Athens where the first trial took place harks to this same thing. Tyr's day, Tuesday, here in Australia, the main Court Day is Tuesday, because it's Tyr's Day - the bringer of justice through a sacrifical warrior, that is Heracles, a part of Tyr, Mars to the Romans and Etruscans and also Mars Thingus to Frisians in Rome but he came in a Tyr. All Tyr words in Greece refer to people of this Tyr. Tiryns,(Perseus with his winged helmet) Tyrhennians, Tyrians.

You might all think this is just pointless and refers in no way to any of the OLB book but in fact, it has everything to do with it.

I don't believe for one minute the Etruscans culture came from Greece and I believe the Trojan war was a story they knew and that it had to do with their people who settled in Troy, people connected to the Phaeaceans, (the Phocaeans) Here's a nice gold pendant from Etruria dated 700BC:

659px-Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Italy_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg

OK, OK, I'll quote some of the book soon....

Edited by The Puzzler
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The obvious reason would be to make it appear older, lend it an air of credibility not otherwise evidenced.

cormac

Lol, of course. It was nothing but a rethorical question.

Puzzler said:

Firstly, can you provide me with proper test results for that opinion..?

Does the paper contain tea residue?

You are right asking for test results. And I once saw a reference (and I think it was in the online version of the OLB by Goffe Jensma, the one you can only read so many pages of on googlebooks.com, and also the online version that will crack your neck trying to read it) to such a test. Believe me, before I posted about it yesterday I have searched for a couple of hours, but couldn't find it again.

But I remember it is exactly those tea residues that they discovered.

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I agree entirely. The 19th century was the high point of romnaticism and that included reading of latin and greek texts. It was virtually a prerequisite for academics to have a good background in the classics so knowledge of those things is evidence of nothing ancient. I was just searching, which I don't usually on OLB as it fires my brain, thought that was a decent site so posted 'their' opening of the article on OLB. I have no point to put across personally though I like to drop in sometimes and see how it is progressing.

I'll be honest i love the ancient maps but have no feeling on them being accurate or not. What is more intriguing is your comments about arabic coming into Europe in the 10th century. That is during the time of the Moors right? Well what is the connection to OLB script? Sorry I am feeling rather slow so can you clarify. Does it suggest common origins of arabs and frya pre 2,200bce or is it more vidence of a hoax or what?

There is no proof of Arabic numerals showing up in Europe before the time the Arabs introduced it there.

The OLB suggests these numerals were there long before the Arabs introduced it.

Just imagine if we in Europe could have used these numerals a couple of thousand years earlier.

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Translators Preface:

"The manufacture of paper from cotton must have been in use among the Chinese from very remote times, and must have become known to the Arabs by the conquest of Samarcand about the year 704. In Damascus this manufacture was an important branch of industry, for which reason it was called Charta Damascena. By the Arabians this art was brought to the Greeks. It is asserted that Greek manuscripts of the tenth century written upon cotton paper exist, and that in the thirteenth century it was much more used than parchment. To distinguish it from Egyptian paper it was called Charta bombicina, gossypina, cuttunea, xylina. A distinction from linen paper was not yet necessary. In the manufacture of the cotton paper raw cotton was originally used. We first find paper from rags mentioned by Petrus Clusiacensis (1122-50).

"The Spaniards and the Italians learned the manufacture of this paper from the Arabians. The most celebrated factories were at Jativa, Valencia, Toledo, besides Fabriano in the March of Ancona." *

In Germany the use of this material did not become very extended, whether it came from Italy or Spain. Therefore the further this preparation spread from the East and the adjoining countries, the more necessity there was that linen should take the place of cotton. A document of Kaufbeuren on linen paper of the year 1318 is of very doubtful genuineness. Bodman considers the oldest pure

p. viii

linen paper to be of the year 1324, but up to 1350 much mixed paper was used. All carefully-written manuscripts of great antiquity show by the regularity of their lines that they must have been ruled, even though no traces of the ruled lines can be distinguished. To make the lines they used a thin piece of lead, a ruler, and a pair of compasses to mark the distances.

In old writings the ink is very black or brown; but while there has been more writing since the thirteenth century, the colour of the ink is often grey or yellowish, and sometimes quite pale, showing that it contains iron. All this affords convincing proof that the manuscript before us belongs to the middle of the thirteenth century, written with clear black letters between fine lines carefully traced with lead. The colour of the ink shows decidedly that it does not contain iron. By these evidences the date given, 1256, is satisfactorily proved, and it is impossible to assign any later date. Therefore all suspicion of modern deception vanishes.

The language is very old Fries, still older and purer than the Fries Rjuchtboek or old Fries laws, differing from that both in form and spelling, so that it appears to be an entirely distinct dialect, and shows that the locality of the language must have been (as it was spoken) between the Vlie and the Scheldt.

The style is extremely simple, concise, and unembarrassed, resembling that of ordinary conversation, and free in the choice of the words. The spelling is also simple and easy, so that the reading of it does not involve the least difficulty, and yet with all its regularity, so unrestricted, that each of the separate writers who have worked at the book has his own peculiarities, arising from the changes in pronunciation in a long course of years, which naturally must have happened, as the last part of the work is written five centuries after the first.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb02.htm

That's the Sandbach translation of Ottema's work.

But even in Ottema's time most others who studied the manuscript already said it was colored artificially to make it look older.

And I think you will know that nowadays we have more advanced technology to date the paper and test the way it was colored (by weathering or artificially).

If one man says the writing is authentic, and 100 others (amongst whom there are many present day scientists and linguists) tell me it's not, should I believe just the man who was so very happy he had this 'ancient' manuscript in his hands that it made him feel 20 years younger?

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Abe you said

What does this mean? You are saying that Aldland was in Asia?

Please don't tell me you forgot that we discussed it earlier in this thread...

I will try to find those posts.

But I remember that from the OLB text itself I could deduce Aldland was not located in the west, but in the far east.

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You keep going on Abe about how everything in it was already known, well, Ottema begs to differ...

The whole contents of the book are in all respects new. That is to say, there is nothing in it that we were acquainted with before. What we here read of Friso, Adel, and Askar differs entirely from what is related by our own chroniclers, or rather presents it in quite another light. For instance, they all relate that Friso came from India, and that thus the Frisians were of Indian descent; and yet they add that Friso was a German, and belonged to a Persian race which Herodotus called Germans (Γερμάνιοι). According to the statement in this book, Friso did come from India, and with the fleet of Nearchus;

p. xiii

but he is not therefore an Indian. He is of Frisian origin, of Frya's people. He belongs, in fact, to a Frisian colony which after the death of Nijhellênia, fifteen and a half centuries before Christ, under the guidance of a priestess Geert, settled in the Panjab, and took the name of Geertmen. The Geertmen were known by only one of the Greek writers, Strabo, who mentions them as Γερμᾶνες, differing totally and entirely from the Βραχμᾶνες in manners, language, and religion.

The historians of Alexander's expeditions do not speak of Frisians or Geertmen, though they mention Indoscythians, thereby describing a people who live in India, bat whose origin is in the distant, unknown North.

In the accounts of Liudgert no names are given of planes where the Frieslanders lived in India. We only know that they first established themselves to the east of the Punjab, and afterwards moved to the west of those rivers. It is mentioned, moreover, as a striking fact, that in the summer the sun at midday was straight above their heads. They therefore lived within the tropics. We find in Ptolemy (see the map of Kiepert), exactly 24° N. on the west side of the Indus, the name Minnagara; and about six degrees east of that, in 22° N., another Minnagara. This name is pure Fries, the same as Walhallagara, Folsgara, and comes from Minna, the name of an Eeremoeder, in whose time the voyages of Teunis and his nephew Inca took place.

The coincidence is too remarkable to be accidental, and not to prove that Minnagara was the headquarters of the Frisian colony. The establishment of the colonists in the Punjab in 1551 before Christ, and their journey thither, we find fully described in Adela's book; and with the mention of one most remarkable circumstance, namely, that the Frisian mariners sailed through the strait which in those times still ran into the Red Sea.

p. xiv

In Strabo, book i. pages 38 and 50, it appears that Eratosthenes was acquainted with the existence of the strait, of which the later geographers make no mention.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb02.htm

That's funny you say that. Ottema did write about the ancient history of The Netherlands and the Frisians decennia before the OLB was published. And, like I said before, he mentioned Ptolomy, Tacitus, Strabo, Pliny, and several 16th and 17th century Frisian historians (fabulators).

These ancient works were used to destill names, facts and events to be used in the OLB. The rest was based on the creative minds of those who created the OLB.

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Please don't tell me you forgot that we discussed it earlier in this thread...

I will try to find those posts.

But I remember that from the OLB text itself I could deduce Aldland was not located in the west, but in the far east.

Found it: POST 353

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There is no proof of Arabic numerals showing up in Europe before the time the Arabs introduced it there.

The OLB suggests these numerals were there long before the Arabs introduced it.

Just imagine if we in Europe could have used these numerals a couple of thousand years earlier.

Hmm, yes I see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu-Arabic_numeral_system

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Found it: POST 353

Ah right...Himmelaia - how could I forget?

Although after so many posts things are starting to blur - or clarify, I'm not sure which yet though...

It's such an interesting post now that I read it again.

-------------------------------------

I slightly edited some sentences out but the main of the post is here...

Abe said: The Finda lived in Aldland/Atland (their homeland) until it submerged. I also mentioned the OLB Kashmir of which is said it lay in the center of the area occupied by the Finda (after the deluge). Then the origin of the OLB "Egyptians" (= Gypsies, the ones from 'Egiptaland') in the Punjab. Then a name many European Gypsies use for themselves: Sinte/Sinti/Sinta >> shift from -s- to -f- ( for centuries the -f- stood for both -s- and -f-) >> Finda. Then.. according to themselves, and nowadays also by others, the origin of their name, Sinti/e/a... is 'Sindh', or better India.

Now something concerning Biblical affairs and the date of the deluge, read this post again:

http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=3468769

Also remember what someone like a Jensma (but also others before him) said about the true reason of fabricating this manuscript (==> Religion/ religious people / how easy it is to create a religion).

So, you'd expect something Biblical would have gotten into the OLB, right? OK, the easy thing is of course the appearence on the stage of someone with a name similar to Jesus, 'Jes' or Jesos something. That was easy.

Now, just imagine where many people (also in the 19th century) imagined where the true location of (the Garden of) Eden, Paradise, was. Many assumed it was somewhere in the east of Mesopotamia. Let's call that Biblical first land, our land of origin... Old land...

Now keep that in mind, and then read this:

From the OLB:

Here is my Counsel

Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens (laia), and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia. Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges. But the priests, who came from another country, traced out these people and had them burnt,..

http://www.sacred-te...l/olb/olb49.htm

(btw, you see the ridiculous wordplay? Himalaya >> Himmellaia >> Himmel laia. Himmel/Hemel = heaven in German/Dutch)

Ok, so these people thought they were 'pure' Finda who had come from the Himalaya, according to the quote of the OLB.

We all know the legends of Shangri-la and Shambala and what have we, a kingdom somewhere hidden away in the Himalaya mountains, some sort of mountain paradise.

But there's a problem here: the Biblical paradise was not known for it's high mountains were a man's nuts would freeze off during a blizzard (Eve would not have had to stand back that far when she first met Adam...)

Some have thought of Tibet as that Shangri-La, but nah, not really a paradise, is it?

Then some Biblical scholars (and even in the 19th century) assumed the real paradise may have been in a large area beyond the Himalaya: the Tarim Basin.

Even then explorers noticed how perfectly level that huge plain was, that it was surrounded by high mountains, and that there were lots of areas with salt layers on the bottom.

The next rather logical step was thinking that it was the bottom of a huge and ancient inland sea.

And then.... there were those Bible enthousiasts who assumed that because of all these characteristics the Tarim Basin was the real place where the Biblical flood had taken place......

Something happened, the inland sea emptied (like a tilted bath tub) and created the Flood, with the waters gushing down in the direction of Mesopotamia.

Now, if the Finda's origins were there, then that is the place where we should look for the OLB Aldland/Atland, the 'Old Land', and not somewhere in the Atlantic or even the North sea because all those area don't fit what's been said about how and where the Finda lived.

The creators of the OLB wanted the orthodox-religiously inclined people (their victims) to go on a wild goose chase.

Of course everybody would think of Atlantis when they heard/read Aldland/Atland, and back then that was the Atlantic Ocean (now it's being located on every corner of this planet).

But let's be real: they didn't say 'Atlantis', they said 'Aldland', the Old Land.

Problem is, it submerged beneath the waves in 2193 BC according to the OLB, but it could not have been in the Atlantic, nor the North Sea. If it was in the Atlantic, what did the Finda people do? Travel to the other side of the planet, to - let's say - Mongolia or in that neighbourhood?

Seems unlikely.

Then we read that they lived east of Twiskland (Germany), and also near the Himalaya (Kashmir was at the center of their - new? - land).

So the Finda did flee Aldland, but that must have been somewhere in Asia.

Well, that drowned land, the Old Land, Aldland, the origin of the Finda people, the yellow skinned people with straight black hair, must then have been somewhere in that huge inland sea, now the Tarim Basin. Or maybe near where all the water poured out. Anyway, we need some volcanoes there too, if we want to keep following the OLB story. I don't know of any there.

An image from a Bible site about that area would do nice here:

Resized to 91% (was 666 x 395) - Click image to enlarge

http://www.ensignmes...ves/deluge.html

(Oh, and check the date of the Flood in that image: 2345 BC. Don't worry, that date is based on Biblical chronology, not scientific date)

---------------------------------------------------------------

Oh right, I think I get your point now - because Finda was born in India and came from the Himalaya, that is where the Holy River, the Old River, or Old Land, maybe Harappa...(?) it flooded and the people moved out and into Finland and became the Finda people who were there but had yellow skin and black hair....?

Edited by The Puzzler
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From the same link:

The familiar shape of the Western Arabic glyphs as now used with the Latin alphabet, (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) are the product of the late 15th to early 16th century, when they enter early typesetting

And it is exactly this shape that is used in the OLB.

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Oh right, I think I get your point now - because Finda was born in India and came from the Himalaya, that is where the Holy River, the Old River, or Old Land, maybe Harappa...(?) it flooded and the people moved out and into Finland and became the Finda people who were there but had yellow skin and black hair....?

Well, I wouldn't say Harappa, but somewhere north of the Himalaya, the Tarim Basin, or somewhere a bit west of the basin (look at the map I posted in that old post)

That was where people used to locate Eden or the Biblical Paradise.

EDIT:

You copied my old post, but the map didn't show up.

Here is that map again:

tarim.gif

If you enlarge it a bit (Control [+] ), you will see that they talk about the Pamir Plateau, west of the Tarim basin, as the place of Eden.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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That's funny you say that. Ottema did write about the ancient history of The Netherlands and the Frisians decennia before the OLB was published. And, like I said before, he mentioned Ptolomy, Tacitus, Strabo, Pliny, and several 16th and 17th century Frisian historians (fabulators).

These ancient works were used to destill names, facts and events to be used in the OLB. The rest was based on the creative minds of those who created the OLB.

Yes, Ottema did and it wasn't Sandbach's intro before it was Ottema's, as I said, in English.

In his intro on the book about the paper he quotes:

On this subject, W. Wattenbach writes in his "Das Schriftwesen im Mittelalter" (Leipzig, 1871), s. 93:—

"The manufacture of paper from cotton must have been in use among the Chinese from very remote times, and must have become known to the Arabs by the conquest of Samarcand about the year 704. In Damascus this manufacture was an important branch of industry, for which reason it was called Charta Damascena. By the Arabians this art was brought to the Greeks. It is asserted that Greek manuscripts of the tenth century written upon cotton paper exist, and that in the thirteenth century it was much more used than parchment. To distinguish it from Egyptian paper it was called Charta bombicina, gossypina, cuttunea, xylina. A distinction from linen paper was not yet necessary. In the manufacture of the cotton paper raw cotton was originally used. We first find paper from rags mentioned by Petrus Clusiacensis (1122-50).

"The Spaniards and the Italians learned the manufacture of this paper from the Arabians. The most celebrated factories were at Jativa, Valencia, Toledo, besides Fabriano in the March of Ancona."

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb02.htm

Sandbach only has a small preface.

What I do notice as I read Ottema's intro is his absolute assuredness in it's authenticity and it's almost like he's explaining the book to us, so we get it.

A Librarian...hmm, yeah Ottema is a bit suss.

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I dunno, Aldland really sounds like it is in the North Sea, I'm still going it over again but did notice:

111:* Dêna marks, the low marches.

I say the Frisians were once in Denmark and came down to the area of Frisia so their history includes that of Denmark and parts of Sweden too.

Notice it's called the low marches, meaning the low Marshes, like a Creek land, crekalander, Viking land.

BUT looking on my old 1966 map here again, I see the whole east side of Italy is called The Marches. Maybe Italy is a land of creeks, marshes = marches therefore could possibly be a Krekaland.

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I dunno, Aldland really sounds like it is in the North Sea, I'm still going it over again but did notice:

111:* Dêna marks, the low marches.

I say the Frisians were once in Denmark and came down to the area of Frisia so their history includes that of Denmark and parts of Sweden too.

Notice it's called the low marches, meaning the low Marshes, like a Creek land, crekalander, Viking land.

BUT looking on my old 1966 map here again, I see the whole east side of Italy is called The Marches. Maybe Italy is a land of creeks, marshes = marches therefore could possibly be a Krekaland.

Yep, that's what you can read all over the internet, that Aldland was nothing but the dry sea bed of the North Sea, aka Doggerland or Dogger Island.

But from what I read in the OLB, Aldland can never be located in the North Sea. Believe me, I would like it to be located in the North Sea, lol.

Yes, the Frisians are said to originate from Denmark and the south of Sweden.

Is Denmark called 'the low marches'? Denmark is much like The Netherlands, so could be, but 'mark' doesn't mean marsh, it means 'area'. So you get something like 'low lands', or 'low lying areas'.

EDIT:

Then we have Wiki:

Most handbooks derive the first part of the word, and the name of the people, from a word meaning "flat land", related to German Tenne "threshing floor", English den "cave", Sanskrit dhánuṣ- ("desert"). The -mark is believed to mean woodland or borderland (see marches), with probable references to the border forests in south Schleswig,[13] maybe similar to Finnmark, Telemark, or Dithmarschen.[14]

In Norse, the land was called Danmǫrk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark

The Frankish word marka and the Old English word mearc both come from Proto-Germanic *marko (Old Norse merki "boundary, sign"[1] and mörk "borderland, forest"), denoting a border land between two centers of power. The Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Mercia took its name from West Saxon mearc "marches", which in this instance referred explicitly to the territory's position on the Anglo-Saxon frontier with the Romano-British to the west. It seems in Old English "mark" meant "boundary", or "sign of a boundary", and the meaning later evolved into "sign in general", "impression or trace forming a sign".

The Germanic word ultimately derives from a Proto-Indo-European root *mereg-, meaning "edge, boundary". The root *mereg- gave Armenian marz[citation needed] ("border, land"), Latin margo ("margin"), Old Irish mruig ("borderland"), Persian marz ("border, land").

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Hmmm OK....

Sixteen hundred years ago (she writes, 593 B.C. *), Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr † (Cashmere) that is "extraordinary." There was a child born whose mother was the daughter of a king, and whose father was a high-priest. In order to hide the shame they were obliged to renounce their own blood. Therefore it was taken out of the town to poor people. As the boy grew up, nothing was concealed from him, so he did all in his power to acquire wisdom. His intellect was so great that he understood everything that he saw or heard. The people regarded him with respect, and the priests were afraid of his questions. When he was of full age he went to his

parents. They had to listen to some hard language; and to get rid of him they gave him a quantity of jewels, but they dared not openly acknowledge him. Overcome with sorrow at the false shame of his parents, he wandered about. While travelling he fell in with a Frisian sailor who was serving as a slave, and who taught him our manners and customs. He bought the freedom of the slave, and they remained friends till death.

The Frisian sailor friend called him Buddha. So, Findasland is in the area of Cashmere, just below Hindu Kush and West of Tibet. People with yellowy skin and hair like horses manes. Apparently here was born Jessos, not really who Jesus was because the priests distorted what Jesus Jessos stood for...Buddha. Buddha can be found born at this exact timeframe:

Siddhārtha Gautama (Sanskrit: सिद्धार्थ गौतम; Pali: Siddhattha Gotama) was a spiritual teacher from ancient India who founded Buddhism.[1] In most Buddhist traditions, he is regarded as the Supreme Buddha (P. sammāsambuddha, S. samyaksaṃbuddha) of our age, "Buddha" meaning "awakened one" or "the enlightened one." [note 1] The time of his birth and death are uncertain: most early 20th-century historians dated his lifetime as c. 563 BCE to 483 BCE[2], but more recent opinion may be dating his death to between 411 and 400 BCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha

Maybe this is Buddha with his Frisian sailor friend, who sure looks kinda North Sea to me with his European face...

220px-TheBuddhaAndVajrapaniGandhara2ndCentury.jpg

When our land was submerged I was in Schoonland. It was very bad there. There were great lakes which rose from the earth like bubbles, then burst asunder, and from the rents flowed a stuff like red-hot iron. The tops of high mountains fell and destroyed whole forests and villages. I myself saw one mountain torn from another and fall straight down. When I afterwards went to see the place there was a lake there. When the earth was composed there came a duke of Lindasburgt with his people, and one maiden who cried everywhere, Magy is the cause of all the misery that we have suffered. They continued their progress, and their hosts increased.

When OUR land submerged...It was really bad in Schoonland. In the next part I would question why the sea-faring people would know of the Kashmere area at all, let alone call it ATland...

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men's hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. Aldland †, called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

It was not only in Finda's land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

During three years this continued, but at length it ceased, and forests became visible. Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland (Germany). Troops of Finda's people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force.

So, in Findasland it vomited fire and also in Twiskland (Germany..?). It seems Findas people came in at this time when their own area had been devastated. Could it be that Findas people had left Kashmere and entered the Northern areas of Europe becoming the Sinti?

In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars.

I see it says here the Finns....do you think then throughout the book the Finns are Finda's people? Their homeland was Aldland, now submerged and they were far away...when they came they settled on the other side of the Twiskland and then what? How could they be on the other side of the Twiskland, not coming in because of the wild animals? When the bad time came. Wouldn't they be in India and only came over when the flood occurred there, c. 2400-2200BC?

I'm not sure really.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Yep, that's what you can read all over the internet, that Aldland was nothing but the dry sea bed of the North Sea, aka Doggerland or Dogger Island.

But from what I read in the OLB, Aldland can never be located in the North Sea. Believe me, I would like it to be located in the North Sea, lol.

Yes, the Frisians are said to originate from Denmark and the south of Sweden.

Is Denmark called 'the low marches'? Denmark is much like The Netherlands, so could be, but 'mark' doesn't mean marsh, it means 'area'. So you get something like 'low lands', or 'low lying areas'.

EDIT:

Then we have Wiki:

Most handbooks derive the first part of the word, and the name of the people, from a word meaning "flat land", related to German Tenne "threshing floor", English den "cave", Sanskrit dhánuṣ- ("desert"). The -mark is believed to mean woodland or borderland (see marches), with probable references to the border forests in south Schleswig,[13] maybe similar to Finnmark, Telemark, or Dithmarschen.[14]

In Norse, the land was called Danmǫrk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark

The Frankish word marka and the Old English word mearc both come from Proto-Germanic *marko (Old Norse merki "boundary, sign"[1] and mörk "borderland, forest"), denoting a border land between two centers of power. The Anglo-Saxon kingdom of Mercia took its name from West Saxon mearc "marches", which in this instance referred explicitly to the territory's position on the Anglo-Saxon frontier with the Romano-British to the west. It seems in Old English "mark" meant "boundary", or "sign of a boundary", and the meaning later evolved into "sign in general", "impression or trace forming a sign".

The Germanic word ultimately derives from a Proto-Indo-European root *mereg-, meaning "edge, boundary". The root *mereg- gave Armenian marz[citation needed] ("border, land"), Latin margo ("margin"), Old Irish mruig ("borderland"), Persian marz ("border, land").

.

I see. So the Italian Marches are really border, boundaries.

Good, because I don't think the Krekalanders were in Denmark.

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In post 765 just back a couple I just edited it and added an image that I stuffed up, can you just check it because I think it fits with what the OLB says.

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Hmmm OK....

Sixteen hundred years ago (she writes, 593 B.C. *), Atland was submerged; and at that time something happened which nobody had reckoned upon. In the heart of Findasland, upon a mountain, lies a plain called Kasamyr † (Cashmere) that is "extraordinary." There was a child born whose mother was the daughter of a king, and whose father was a high-priest. In order to hide the shame they were obliged to renounce their own blood. Therefore it was taken out of the town to poor people. As the boy grew up, nothing was concealed from him, so he did all in his power to acquire wisdom. His intellect was so great that he understood everything that he saw or heard. The people regarded him with respect, and the priests were afraid of his questions. When he was of full age he went to his

parents. They had to listen to some hard language; and to get rid of him they gave him a quantity of jewels, but they dared not openly acknowledge him. Overcome with sorrow at the false shame of his parents, he wandered about. While travelling he fell in with a Frisian sailor who was serving as a slave, and who taught him our manners and customs. He bought the freedom of the slave, and they remained friends till death.

The Frisian sailor friend called him Buddha. So, Findasland is in the area of Cashmere, just below Hindu Kush and West of Tibet. People with yellowy skin and hair like horses manes. Apparently here was born Jessos, not really who Jesus was because the priests distorted what Jesus Jessos stood for...Buddha. Buddha can be found born at this exact timeframe:

Siddhārtha Gautama (Sanskrit: सिद्धार्थ गौतम; Pali: Siddhattha Gotama) was a spiritual teacher from ancient India who founded Buddhism.[1] In most Buddhist traditions, he is regarded as the Supreme Buddha (P. sammāsambuddha, S. samyaksaṃbuddha) of our age, "Buddha" meaning "awakened one" or "the enlightened one." [note 1] The time of his birth and death are uncertain: most early 20th-century historians dated his lifetime as c. 563 BCE to 483 BCE[2], but more recent opinion may be dating his death to between 411 and 400 BCE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha

Maybe this is Buddha with his Frisian sailor friend, who sure looks kinda North Sea to me with his European face...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/TheBuddhaAndVajrapaniGandhara2ndCentury.jpg/220px-TheBuddhaAndVajrapaniGandhara2ndCentury.jpg[/i]

[1]When our land was submerged I was in Schoonland. It was very bad there. There were great lakes which rose from the earth like bubbles, then burst asunder, and from the rents flowed a stuff like red-hot iron. The tops of high mountains fell and destroyed whole forests and villages. I myself saw one mountain torn from another and fall straight down. When I afterwards went to see the place there was a lake there. When the earth was composed there came a duke of Lindasburgt with his people, and one maiden who cried everywhere, Magy is the cause of all the misery that we have suffered. They continued their progress, and their hosts increased.[/i]

When OUR land submerged...It was really bad in Schoonland. In the next part I would question why the sea-faring people would know of the Kashmere area at all, let alone call it ATland...

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men's hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. Aldland †, called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

It was not only in Finda's land that the earth vomited fire, but also in Twiskland (Germany). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

During three years this continued, but at length it ceased, and forests became visible. Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland (Germany). Troops of Finda's people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that union is force.

So, in Findasland it vomited fire and also in Twiskland (Germany..?). It seems Findas people came in at this time when their own area had been devastated. Could it be that Findas people had left Kashmere and entered the Northern areas of Europe becoming the Sinti?

In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars.

I see it says here the Finns....do you think then throughout the book the Finns are Finda's people? Their homeland was Aldland, now submerged and they were far away...when they came they settled on the other side of the Twiskland and then what? How could they be on the other side of the Twiskland, not coming in because of the wild animals? When the bad time came. Wouldn't they be in India and only came over when the flood occurred there, c. 2400-2200BC?

I'm not sure really.

Well, the suggestion is indeed that the Finns are Finda's people. The Sindh (Gypsies) arrived much later in Europe (even according to their own stories).

How could they be on the other side of the Twiskland, not coming in because of the wild animals? When the bad time came. Wouldn't they be in India and only came over when the flood occurred there, c. 2400-2200BC?

That's what I said in that old post of mine you reposted.

They could never have come from some area in the Atlantic Ocean, "Atlantis" or no Atlantis. Logic tells me they came from the far east of Twiskland (Germany), and so - also because of what is said about Kashmir in the OLB - that is where their Aldland must have been.

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In post 765 just back a couple I just edited it and added an image that I stuffed up, can you just check it because I think it fits with what the OLB says.

This image:

220px-TheBuddhaAndVajrapaniGandhara2ndCentury.jpg

You see a guy with a beard, and then you think he's some kind of Nordic guy.

The men in India are able to grow quite large beards too, you know.

I forgot this:

You said:

In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars.

But the OLB says Finda, not Finns. It's Sandbach who changed it into Finns.

I talked about this before (I have an iron memory, lol)_

Edited by Abramelin
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This image:

220px-TheBuddhaAndVajrapaniGandhara2ndCentury.jpg

You see a guy with a beard, and then you think he's some kind of Nordic guy.

The men in India are able to grow quite large beards too, you know.

I forgot this:

You said:

But the OLB says Finda, not Finns. It's Sandbach who changed it into Finns.

I talked about this before (I have an iron memory, lol)_

Unlike me, whose memory is like a sieve.... :wacko:

lol not just on that, he appears shortish and with European features. He was represented like Heracles too...

175px-Buddha-Vajrapani-Herakles.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vajrapani

I read it. You learn something new everyday. The Greeks were the first ones to make representations of Buddha so they are generally Greek inspired.

Although there is still some debate, the first anthropomorphic representations of the Buddha himself are often considered a result of the Greco-Buddhist interaction. Before this innovation, Buddhist art was "aniconic": the Buddha was only represented through his symbols (an empty throne, the Bodhi tree, the Buddha's footprints, the Dharma wheel).

This reluctance towards anthropomorphic representations of the Buddha, and the sophisticated development of aniconic symbols to avoid it (even in narrative scenes where other human figures would appear), seem to be connected to one of the Buddha’s sayings, reported in the Digha Nikaya, that discouraged representations of himself after the extinction of his body.[14]

Probably not feeling bound by these restrictions, and because of "their cult of form, the Greeks were the first to attempt a sculptural representation of the Buddha".[15] In many parts of the Ancient World, the Greeks did develop syncretic divinities, that could become a common religious focus for populations with different traditions: a well-known example is the syncretic God Sarapis, introduced by Ptolemy I in Egypt, which combined aspects of Greek and Egyptian Gods. In India as well, it was only natural for the Greeks to create a single common divinity by combining the image of a Greek God-King (The Sun-God Apollo, or possibly the deified founder of the Indo-Greek Kingdom, Demetrius), with the traditional attributes of the Buddha.

Standing Buddha, ancient region of Gandhara, northern Pakistan, 1st century CE.Many of the stylistic elements in the representations of the Buddha point to Greek influence: the Greco-Roman toga-like wavy robe covering both shoulders (more exactly, its lighter version, the Greek himation), the contrapposto stance of the upright figures (see: 1st–2nd century Gandhara standing Buddhas[16]), the stylicized Mediterranean curly hair and topknot (ushnisha) apparently derived from the style of the Belvedere Apollo (330 BCE),[17] and the measured quality of the faces, all rendered with strong artistic realism (See: Greek art). A large quantity of sculptures combining Buddhist and purely Hellenistic styles and iconography were excavated at the Gandharan site of Hadda. The 'curly hair' of Buddha is described in the famous list of 32 external characteristics of a Great Being (mahapurusa) that we find all along the Buddhist sutras. The curly hair, with the curls turning to the right is first described in the Pali canon; we find the same description in e.g. the "Dasasahasrika Prajnaparamita".

Greek artists were most probably the authors of these early representations of the Buddha, in particular the standing statues, which display "a realistic treatment of the folds and on some even a hint of modelled volume that characterizes the best Greek work. This is Classical or Hellenistic Greek, not archaizing Greek transmitted by Persia or Bactria, nor distinctively Roman".[18]

The Greek stylistic influence on the representation of the Buddha, through its idealistic realism, also permitted a very accessible, understandable and attractive visualization of the ultimate state of enlightenment described by Buddhism, allowing it reach a wider audience: "One of the distinguishing features of the Gandharan school of art that emerged in north-west India is that it has been clearly influenced by the naturalism of the Classical Greek style. Thus, while these images still convey the inner peace that results from putting the Buddha's doctrine into practice, they also give us an impression of people who walked and talked, etc. and slept much as we do. I feel this is very important. These figures are inspiring because they do not only depict the goal, but also the sense that people like us can achieve it if we try" (His Holiness The 14th Dalai Lama[19])

During the following centuries, this anthropomorphic representation of the Buddha defined the canon of Buddhist art, but progressively evolved to incorporate more Indian and Asian elements.

[edit] A Hellenized Buddhist pantheon

Herculean depiction of Vajrapani (right), as the protector of the Buddha, 2nd century CE Gandhara, British Museum.Several other Buddhist deities may have been influenced by Greek gods. For example, Herakles with a lion-skin (the protector deity of Demetrius I) "served as an artistic model for Vajrapani, a protector of the Buddha" (Foltz, "Religions and the Silk Road") (See[20]). In Japan, this expression further translated into the wrath-filled and muscular Niō guardian gods of the Buddha, standing today at the entrance of many Buddhist temples.

According to Katsumi Tanabe, professor at Chūō University, Japan (in "Alexander the Great. East-West cultural contact from Greece to Japan"), besides Vajrapani, Greek influence also appears in several other gods of the Mahayana pantheon, such as the Japanese Wind God Fujin inspired from the Greek Boreas through the Greco-Buddhist Wardo, or the mother deity Hariti[21] inspired by Tyche.

In addition, forms such as garland-bearing cherubs, vine scrolls, and such semi-human creatures as the centaur and triton, are part of the repertory of Hellenistic art introduced by Greco-Roman artists in the service of the Kushan court.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism

So, now I know why Vajrapani looks like a European! lol

Well, it did fit with Buddha having a European friend for life with him.

Edited by The Puzzler
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About the Finns. It says here:

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East. That people was driven by another. Behind us, in Twiskland (Germany), they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way. Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part. Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it. Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us. They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect.

So, 2 people came from the East, one driven by another, one was not heard of and one came in the back of Schoonland, thinly inhabited. They took it and they will now describe their customs. They were not wild people, like most of Finda's race, but like....priests and statues in their churches, these are the 'Magyar. They dont have a name but 'we' call them Finns.

So, now that I look at it better, to me it sounds as if the Finda people, who must have been mostly wildish were not these Finns, the Magyar people.

They seem to be referred to as the Finns and Magyars meaning the weak people and their priest kings.

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About the Finns. It says here:

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East. That people was driven by another. Behind us, in Twiskland (Germany), they fell into disputes, divided into two parties, and each went its own way. Of the one no account has come to us, but the other came in the back of our Schoonland, which was thinly inhabited, particularly the upper part. Therefore they were able to take possession of it without contest, and as they did no other harm, we would not make war about it. Now that we have learned to know them, we will describe their customs, and after that how matters went between us. They were not wild people, like most of Findas race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one. The rest of the people are of no account, and in subjection to them. This people have not even a name; but we call them Finns, because although all the festivals are melancholy and bloody, they are so formal that we are inferior to them in that respect.

So, 2 people came from the East, one driven by another, one was not heard of and one came in the back of Schoonland, thinly inhabited. They took it and they will now describe their customs. They were not wild people, like most of Finda's race, but like....priests and statues in their churches, these are the 'Magyar. They dont have a name but 'we' call them Finns.

So, now that I look at it better, to me it sounds as if the Finda people, who must have been mostly wildish were not these Finns, the Magyar people.

They seem to be referred to as the Finns and Magyars meaning the weak people and their priest kings.

Tacitus mentioned the Sarmatians, at the east of the territory of the Germanic tribes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

They look like a nice candidate for the Magyar.

And wow, I didn't know this, but there was an ancient people called the Sindi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindes

But again, both were mentioned in ancient Greek/Roman sources, and again, known by the 19th century people.

Edited by Abramelin
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First records on the MagyarsIn the 5th century BC, Herodotus described a people called Іϋρκαι /Iurkai/ who were equestrian hunters and lived around the rivers Kama and Belaya; some authors suggest that his record may have been the first reference to the ancestors of the Magyars.[16] The people mentioned by Strabo as Οΰγρου /Ugroi/ might also be identified with the ancient Hungarians, although it is more plausible that he referred to one of the tribes of the Sarmatians.[16]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_prehistory

More about these Sarmatians:

http://www.livius.org/sao-sd/sarmatians/sarmatians.html

http://www.unrv.com/provinces/sarmatia.php

http://www.bookrags.com/research/sarmatian-religion-eorl-12/

http://www.applet-magic.com/sarmatians2.htm

====================

To me it appears the writers of the OLB mixed two similar sounding names to create a people called the Magyar; one was a tribe of Huns, another the Magi from the Middle East :

The Six Median Tribes

Herodotus lists the names of six Mede tribes or castes. Some of these are similar to tribal names of the Scythians, suggesting a definitive link between these two groups.

The Busae group is thought to derive from the Persian term buza meaning indigenous (i.e. not Iranian). Whether this was based on an originally Iranian term, or their own name, is unknown.

The second group is called the Paraetaceni, or Parae-tak-(eni) in Persian, and denotes nomadic inhabitants of the mountains of Paraetacene. This name recalls the Scythian Para-la-ti, the people of Kolaxis, believed to represent the common people in general, but whom Herodotus calls the "Royal Scythians".

The third group is called Stru­khat.

The fourth group is the Arizanti, whose name is derived from the words Arya (noble), and Zantu (tribe, clan).

The fifth group were the Budii, found also among the Black Sea Scythians as Budi-ni. Buddha was of the tribe Budha, the Saka (eastern Scythian) form of the name.

The sixth tribe were the Magi...They were a hereditary caste of priests of the Zurvanism religion that evolved out of Zoroastrianism. The name Magi implies a link with the Sumerians, who called their language Emegir, over time becoming simplified to Magi. Hungarian tradition also traces pre-European Magyar (Hungarian) ancestry back to the Magi. In time, the Sumerian-influenced religion of the Magi was suppressed in favour of a more purely Iranian form of Zoroastrianism, itself evolved from its somewhat dualist beginnings into the monotheistic faith that it is today (also known as Parsi-ism).

Herodotus also mentions that "the Medes had exactly the same equipment as the Persians; and indeed the dress common to both is not so much Persian as Median."

http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/medes.html

===

In Greek sources

The perhaps oldest surviving reference to the magi – from Greek μάγος (mágos, plural: magoi) – is from 6th century BC Heraclitus (apud Clemens Protrepticus 12), who curses the magi for their "impious" rites and rituals. A description of the rituals that Heraclitus refers to has not survived, and there is nothing to suggest that Heraclitus was referring to foreigners.

Better preserved are the descriptions of the mid-5th century BC Herodotus, who in his portrayal of the Iranian expatriates living in Asia minor uses the term "magi" in two different senses. In the first sense (Histories 1.101), Herodotus speaks of the magi as one of the tribes/peoples (ethnous) of the Medes. In another sense (1.132), Herodotus uses the term "magi" to generically refer to a "sacerdotal caste", but "whose ethnic origin is never again so much as mentioned."[1] According to Robert Charles Zaehner, in other accounts, "we hear of Magi not only in Persia, Parthia, Bactria, Chorasmia, Aria, Media, and among the Sakas, but also in non-Iranian lands like Samaria, Ethiopia, and Egypt. Their influence was also widespread throughout Asia Minor. It is, therefore, quite likely that the sacerdotal caste of the Magi was distinct from the Median tribe of the same name."[1]

Other Greek sources from before the Hellenistic period include the gentleman-soldier Xenophon, who had first-hand experience at the Achaemenid court. In his early 4th century BC Cyropaedia, the Athenian depicts the magians as authorities for all religious matters (8.3.11), and imagines the magians to be responsible for the education of the emperor-to-be.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magi

I think we have found the source of those civilized 'Magyar' from the OLB, with their priests and churches and statues...

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Tacitus mentioned the Sarmatians, at the east of the territory of the Germanic tribes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

They look like a nice candidate for the Magyar.

And wow, I didn't know this, but there was an ancient people called the Sindi:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindes

But again, both were mentioned in ancient Greek/Roman sources, and again, known by the 19th century people.

The Sarmatians sound more like Finda's wild people to me.

I think the actual Magyar, Hungarian people, have been the Magyar and Finns. Finno-Ugrit.

At the time of the Magyar migration, the land was inhabited only by a sparse population of Slavs, numbering about 200,000,[33] who were either assimilated or enslaved by the Magyars.

Later time frame but still...

It's too late for me now to follow up anymore, back tomorrow. :yes:

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The Sarmatians sound more like Finda's wild people to me.

I think the actual Magyar, Hungarian people, have been the Magyar and Finns. Finno-Ugrit.

At the time of the Magyar migration, the land was inhabited only by a sparse population of Slavs, numbering about 200,000,[33] who were either assimilated or enslaved by the Magyars.

Later time frame but still...

It's too late for me now to follow up anymore, back tomorrow. :yes:

Check my former post, before this one, please.

The Magyar as Huns had no priests and churches (=temples), but the Magi did.

"They were not wild people, like most of Finda’s race; but, like the Egyptians, they have priests and also statues in their churches. The priests are the only rulers; they call themselves Magyars, and their headman Magy. He is high priest and king in one."

.

Edited by Abramelin
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