[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

I want to add something positive here.

I have been a participant of this thread for years now, and I have learned a lot.

Main thing: stuff about the Frisians we Dutch never learned in highschool.

These people were great sailors (and most certainly inspired the Vikings), and they settled all around Europe.

They dominated the Hanze (google that one, pls).

The North Sea was once called "Mare Frisia", now you guess why.

Their language was the main language spoken amongst the crusaders during the early crusades, now you guess again why.

They were feared by many people living in the Med because of their huge posture and their fierce nature.

Maybe I forgot something about the Frisians I posted in this thread, but it was never negative.

Just to show you that - as the "Hollander" I am - I respect the ancient history of the Frisians.

Despite Alewyn trying to create somekind of "atmosphere" between Hollanders and Frisians, I try to create a different image.

And according to him I am just another Dutch (=Hollander) guy with an 'agenda'.

+++++++

EDIT:

On my own site I use the name "Blackbeard".

Anyone here get my point?

OK, I'll tell you: I have found out many things about the Frisians that made me feel very happy.

As well as knowing that a 20th century Frisian major (Rüstringen) carried the same family name as I do.

And my brother - a fanatic about our genaeology - found out my family could be traced back to a (Frisian) family in Antwerp... in the 13th century.

There.

Tell me, what is my "agenda"?

Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

It's not me with an agenda dear Alewyn, it's nobody but you.

You need to sell your book, and a bit of extra drama won't hurt the sales, no it will attract more attention. You would love it if the Frisians and Hollanders still hated eachother's guts, but if you really believe that.... then you should go out more.

How did you manage to drag me into this one?

Did you even see the date of the post that Otharus refered to? It is more than a year old!

Edit: If I recall it was in a totall different context. Grow up.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Alewyn

[Abramelin]

How did you manage to drag me into this one?

Did you even see the date of the post that Otharus refered to? It is more than a year old!

Edit: If I recall it was in a totall different context. Grow up.

If you are able to read, then I assume you are also able to read my respons to his post.

Edit: If I recall it was in a totall different context: Fk off.

You only show up here to promote your book. And anyone having doubts about the claims you make in your book is someone in a 'conspiracy' to hide the truth, and therewith spoil the sales of your book.

I tell you: I KNOW I have 10 times more respect for the Frisians than you with that book of yours.

Read my former post.

You have no idea AT ALL about my motives.

.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

If you are able to read, then I assume you are also able to read my respons to his post.

Edit: If I recall it was in a totall different context: Fk off.

You only show up here to promote your book. And anyone having doubts about the claims you make in your book is someone in a 'conspiracy' to hide the truth.

I tell you: I KNOW I have 10 times more respect for the Frisians than you with that book of yours.

Read my former post.

.

You read my original post again. I referred to 700 years ago

As for promoting my book: I am not on the dole or depending of the rest of society to take care of me. I can assure you, I do not need that little bit of money.

And lastly, I will definitely not sink to your level of debate.

Good Day.

[Abramelin]

You read my original post again. I referred to 700 years ago

As for promoting my book: I am not on the dole or depending of the rest of society to take care of me. I can assure you, I do not need that little bit of money.

And lastly, I will definitely not sink to your level of debate.

Good Day.

You already "sunk" to my level, long ago.

You are a pain concerning your book.

I am a pain concerning a goal to prove Frisians were NO IDIOTS who believed in fairy tales.

And no, I know you are not out for the money you could earn with the sales of your book, but you are out to not look ridiculous with what you claim in your book.

And well, the money you earn by selling the book could give you a great time in Hawaii (or whatever place you want to go to), eh?

[Riaan]

If you are able to read, then I assume you are also able to read my respons to his post.

Edit: If I recall it was in a totall different context: Fk off.

You only show up here to promote your book. And anyone having doubts about the claims you make in your book is someone in a 'conspiracy' to hide the truth, and therewith spoil the sales of your book.

I tell you: I KNOW I have 10 times more respect for the Frisians than you with that book of yours.

Read my former post.

You have no idea AT ALL about my motives.

.

If you go to the very first page, you'll notice that I posted this topic and not Alewyn. Alewyn generously received me at his home and we had a pleasant discussion about our mutual research into these topics. He has put an enormous effort into his book and I decided by myself that it was worth listing on this site for discussion.

Alewyn, it's good to see that you're still active on the forum!

Best regards,

Riaan

[Abramelin]

If you go to the very first page, you'll notice that I posted this topic and not Alewyn. Alewyn generously received me at his home and we had a pleasant discussion about our mutual research into these topics. He has put an enormous effort into his book and I decided by myself that it was worth listing on this site for discussion.

Alewyn, it's good to see that you're still active on the forum!

Best regards,

Riaan

Well, I am being accused of having an "agenda" like every week or so.

Now I ask you: did Alewyn pay you to start this thread?

Me asking you this, that sucks, right? Yeah.

OK, then now you'll understand why I sometimes flare up.

+++++

EDIT:

In case you missed it, many people here put a lot of effort into this thread, a thread that is miles longer than anything your countryman wrote.

If someone wants to write a book about the OLB again, s/he could use what we all posted here.

And hopefully s/he will not be as blind as Alewyn was.

But I am glad you finally showed your 'face' after TWO YEARS, jesus.

.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

If you go to the very first page, you'll notice that I posted this topic and not Alewyn. Alewyn generously received me at his home and we had a pleasant discussion about our mutual research into these topics. He has put an enormous effort into his book and I decided by myself that it was worth listing on this site for discussion.

Alewyn, it's good to see that you're still active on the forum!

Best regards,

Riaan

Hi Riaan, it is good to hear from you again.

Yes, we had our moments, but I believe it is time to move on.

"Meng jou met die semels, dan vreet die varke jou"

Groete.

[Abramelin]

Hi Riaan, it is good to hear from you again.

Yes, we had our moments, but I believe it is time to move on.

"Meng jou met die semels, dan vreet die varke jou"

Groete.

"Mix with the barley then the pigs will eat you (if you hang out with bad company, you'll be seen as trouble yourself)"

Thanks.

You just want to not be seen as an ass****.

I never portrayed you like that, but you are just simply WRONG.

Do not insult me again in that sleasy, covered up way, or you will experience what I am capable of.

De groeten, lul.

Again: do not insult me in that covered up way, or I will hack you and all of your sites to smithereens.

I never did that to anyone, but believe me: I know how to do it.

In case you missed it: we are here discussing the validity of a socalled 'ancient document/manuscript'.

That is ALL.

.

Edited November 28, 2011 by Abramelin

[Knul]

Hello Riaan, it was a good idea of you to start this thread. Unfortunately some of the participants are so selfconvinced, that they lost respect for other opinions. This makes the site contraproductive and a waste of time and energy. You may well know, that I do not belong to the believers, but I can agree, that the OLB follows the known timeline. This has not yet been admitted in all the reports I have seen about the OLB, which confine themselves to the timeline from Friso onward. Of course, the role of the Frisians has been exaggerated. I don't mind. The OLB is not a history book

[The Puzzler]

I want to add something positive here.

I have been a participant of this thread for years now, and I have learned a lot.

Main thing: stuff about the Frisians we Dutch never learned in highschool.

These people were great sailors (and most certainly inspired the Vikings), and they settled all around Europe.

They dominated the Hanze (google that one, pls).

The North Sea was once called "Mare Frisia", now you guess why.

Their language was the main language spoken amongst the crusaders during the early crusades, now you guess again why.

They were feared by many people living in the Med because of their huge posture and their fierce nature.

Maybe I forgot something about the Frisians I posted in this thread, but it was never negative.

Just to show you that - as the "Hollander" I am - I respect the ancient history of the Frisians.

Despite Alewyn trying to create somekind of "atmosphere" between Hollanders and Frisians, I try to create a different image.

And according to him I am just another Dutch (=Hollander) guy with an 'agenda'.

+++++++

EDIT:

On my own site I use the name "Blackbeard".

Anyone here get my point?

OK, I'll tell you: I have found out many things about the Frisians that made me feel very happy.

As well as knowing that a 20th century Frisian major (Rüstringen) carried the same family name as I do.

And my brother - a fanatic about our genaeology - found out my family could be traced back to a (Frisian) family in Antwerp... in the 13th century.

There.

----

That's cool Abe.

I've hardly got words to describe what I've got from it all, needless to say, I've got a lot.

-----------------

Oh dear, the thread has got nasty all of a sudden, I only went up to feed the chooks, gee, I was in such a positive mood too after reading this post of Abe's.

Edited November 29, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Otharus]

Abe, you really should learn to take a break when you need it.

You may want to ask the UM staff to clean up the mess you made of the previous page.

I liked your positive post, but then you lost it completely.

And you should apologize to Alewyn.

[Otharus]

Just to show you that - as the "Hollander" I am - I respect the ancient history of the Frisians.

[...]

I have found out many things about the Frisians that made me feel very happy.

Are you aware of the fact that the term "Holland" was introduced in official documents only in 1100 AD by count Floris II "the fat"?

He then started signing with "Florentius, comes de Hollant", while before 1100, he signed with "comes Frisiae".

This family was "given" reign (the right to collect taxes) by the 'holy' Roman empire over the low lands that were called Frisia (that includes the area where you live) in the 9th century, while the reality was that they only had power over a limited (south-western) area. The reason why Floris II changed the name probably was, that he had no power in what became known as Westfriesland and the North-eastern provinces of the Netherlands. It took his descendants almost 200 more years, and several wars, to conquer Westfriesland.

You might want to have a fresh look at the video I made about this.

[Otharus]

He has put an enormous effort into his book and I decided by myself that it was worth listing on this site for discussion.

I agree with both and hope we can continue discussing in a more constructive way.

That the subject creates strong emotions (and expressions therof) is not a new phenomenon.

It explains why scholars with a good reputation here are hesitant to 'burn their fingers' on it.

[Otharus]

"Meng jou met die semels, dan vreet die varke jou"

I percieved what happened last night more as an example of a monkey showing his ugly bottom, than of a pig eating the farmer that feeds it.

I'm thinking of other proverbs that apply here.

What about:

"Hoge bomen vangen veel wind"?

Edited November 29, 2011 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Abe, you really should learn to take a break when you need it.

You may want to ask the UM staff to clean up the mess you made of the previous page.

I liked your positive post, but then you lost it completely.

And you should apologize to Alewyn.

Sure, after that saying he posted. I don't think so.

[Abramelin]

I agree with both and hope we can continue discussing in a more constructive way.

That the subject creates strong emotions (and expressions therof) is not a new phenomenon.

It explains why scholars with a good reputation here are hesitant to 'burn their fingers' on it.

You will feel strong emotions at some point when some guy in defence of his book continues suggesting things about you.

[Abramelin]

Are you aware of the fact that the term "Holland" was introduced in official documents only in 1100 AD by count Floris II "the fat"?

He then started signing with "Florentius, comes de Hollant", while before 1100, he signed with "comes Frisiae".

This family was "given" reign (the right to collect taxes) by the 'holy' Roman empire over the low lands that were called Frisia (that includes the area where you live) in the 9th century, while the reality was that they only had power over a limited (south-western) area. The reason why Floris II changed the name probably was, that he had no power in what became known as Westfriesland and the North-eastern provinces of the Netherlands. It took his descendants almost 200 more years, and several wars, to conquer Westfriesland.

You might want to have a fresh look at the video I made about this.

I was aware of that, yes.

[Otharus]

Some fragments of letters between Over de Linden and Ottema, copied from "De Gemaskerde God" (2004, p.261-262) by Jensma, who copied them from Luitse (1991). Improvised translation into English by me.

OdL to Ottema, 24-10-1871 (about the planned publication of the book):

"If both noble and common people can buy it, I fear, that I, because of Liko's recommendation, the history of Jesus, and the ultra-democratic laws in it, may become the scapegoat of the Catholics, all various orthodox protestants and full-blooded aristocrats, while the publisher makes all the profit."

OdL to Ottema, 5-11-1871 (about the beauty of prophecies and philosophy of the manuscript):

"On the other hand I suffer from fear. Some of my superiors, with whom I have a good understanding, might not be pleased with the content of the book."

Jensma (paraphrased from letter OdL to Ottema, 6-9-1872):

"One day Over de Linden was visited by a man of noble descent - a baron, who read Ottema's translation and replied with a heartfelt 'goddamnit, that is a load of communistic rubbish'. The baron went to one of OdL's superiors, who strongly advised him against publication."

Ottema to OdL, 10-9-1872 (reply to previous):

"Don't worry about what this gentleman likes to call communistic. Without that the manuscript could not be old. This was also how the Old Romans organised their earliest States, as described by Tacitus."

Jan Ottema (1804-1879)

Cornelis Over de Linden (1811-1874)

Edited November 29, 2011 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

I found a couple of strange things about Augustinus Lycklama (see my quoted post).

He lived in a "stins" (a fortified building) called "Friesburg" ("Fryasburg"??).

And he may have been the grandson of Menno Coehoorn (the Menno of whom I said could have been the one on who's personality the OLB "Minno" was created).

http://www.stellingwerf-heemkunde.nl/dorpen/Nijeholtpade/nijeholtpade.htm

http://www.stinseninfriesland.nl/Friesburg.htm

http://books.google.nl/books?id=8ryJXWnAYWkC&pg=PA350&lpg=PA350&dq=Augustinus+Lyklama+%C3%A0+Nijeholt+1724&source=bl&ots=6SdGI__N94&sig=Eb81cwwxwrVetMHvp83lekK1xTM&hl=nl&ei=YQLVTrz5Gsn1-ga-qoCVDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Augustinus%20Lyklama%20%C3%A0%20Nijeholt%201724&f=false

Someone read the book about the OLB by a Heemstra?

French:

Selon Heemstra, l’Oera Linda-boek est né au XVIIe siècle au château de Ter Horne à Beetgum près de Leeuwarde, dans l’entourage d’un Suédois, le comte Carlson, dont la bibliothèque de plus de 20.000 volumes offrait les sources. L’objectif du cercle plus ou moins frisiomane de Ter Horne n’était pas de falsifier mais de restaurer la protohistoire frisonne dans toute sa pureté. Si ce travail sur sources exigea une large collaboration, c’est le seul Hessel Vegelin, d’ascendance suisse, qui en assura la rédaction définitive.

Pour appuyer ses prétentions à la noblesse, Augustinus Lycklama (1670-1744) modifia plus **** le titre de la chronique de VVRALDA BOK en VVRALINDA BOK (« Livre de la Translindanie, patrie des Lycklama » p. 15). Il ajouta la préface où Liko évoque Lyckle, l’ancêtre des Lycklama, et confia le remaniement de l’ouvrage à Albertus Hublingh, qui aurait introduit Adela en hommage à l’épouse de son bienfaiteur, Sarah Adel van Haren née van Huls.

« Enfin, en l'année 1776, l'existence de l'VVra Linda Bok est attestée, indirectement, dans les archives de la ville d'Enkhuizen dans la Frise de l'Ouest. C'est ce que nous apprend la reconstitution, opérée depuis peu, de la série des derniers propriétaires de ce document, qui fut, pendant tout le dix-neuvième siècle en la possession d'une famille du nom de "Over de Linden". » (p. 17)

L’exemplaire actuel aurait été réalisé et retouché par L.P.C. van den Bergh, depuis 1865 Directeur général des archives de l’Etat, personnage féru de littérature populaire et de mythologie…

Le château de Pierrefonds de Viollet-le-Duc est-il un faux ? Non, bien sûr ! L’Oera Linda-boek ne l’est sans doute pas davantage.

L’approche d’Heemstra présente entre autres l’intérêt d’apporter une réponse aux questions posées par Los. Est-il besoin de préciser qu’en dépit de sa vraisemblance, elle ne fait pas l’unanimité ?

Décidément, l’Oera Linda-boek n’a sans doute pas fini de faire couler des flots d’encre …

Jacques Fermaut

http://home.nordnet.fr/~jacfermaut/pointdevueheemstra02.html#commandeoera

=

English:

According to Heemstra, the Oera Linda-boek was born in the seventeenth century at the castle of Ter Horne in Beetgum near Leeuwarden in the entourage of a Swede, Count Carlson, whose library of over 20,000 volumes offered sources. The purpose of the circle more or less frisiomane Ter Horne was not falsify but to restore the early history Frisian in all its purity. If this work on sources required a broad collaboration is the only Vegelin Hessel, of Swiss descent, who gave the final text.

To support his claim to nobility, Augustinus Lycklama (1670-1744) later changed the title of the chronicle of VVRALDA BOK into VVRALINDA BOK (Book of Translindanie, home of Lycklama "p. 15). He added that the preface refers Lyckle Liko, the ancestor of Lycklama, and entrusted the work to redesign the Hublingh Albertus, who introduced Adela tribute to his benefactor's wife, Sarah Adel van Haren born van Huls.

"Finally, in the year 1776, the existence of VVra Linda Bok is confirmed, indirectly, in the archives of the city of Enkhuizen in West Friesland. That's what we learned reconstitution, made recently in the series of past owners of this document, which was, throughout the nineteenth century in the possession of a family named "Over de Linden". "(P. 17)

The present copy was made and edited by LPC van den Bergh, since 1865 Director General State Archives, a character fond of folk literature and mythology ...

Pierrefonds Castle of Viollet-le-Duc is it a fake? Of course not! The Oera Linda-boek without a doubt is probably not either.

The approach of this Heemstra including interest to respond to questions from Los. Is it necessary to clarify that despite its appearances, it is not unanimity?

Decidedly, Oera Linda-boek has probably not finished shedding rivers of ink ...

Jacques Fermaut

Not the best translation, but it will do.

==

EDIT:

Btw, I found these writers and the French website when I started Googling for "That VVra Linda Bok". There was a discussion going on about what Wralda might mean, and I remembered how Overwijn spelled the title of the OLB....

,

[Knul]

The following book was in the possession of J.H. Halbertsma: Archaeologica, vol. 38 'On lake dwellings of the early periods', geschreven door W.M. Wylie (1859).

[Knul]

I found a couple of strange things about Augustinus Lycklama (see my quoted post).

He lived in a "stins" (a fortified building) called "Friesburg" ("Fryasburg"??).

And he may have been the grandson of Menno Coehoorn (the Menno of whom I said could have been the one on who's personality the OLB "Minno" was created).

http://www.stellingwerf-heemkunde.nl/dorpen/Nijeholtpade/nijeholtpade.htm

http://www.stinseninfriesland.nl/Friesburg.htm

http://books.google.nl/books?id=8ryJXWnAYWkC&pg=PA350&lpg=PA350&dq=Augustinus+Lyklama+%C3%A0+Nijeholt+1724&source=bl&ots=6SdGI__N94&sig=Eb81cwwxwrVetMHvp83lekK1xTM&hl=nl&ei=YQLVTrz5Gsn1-ga-qoCVDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CDsQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=Augustinus%20Lyklama%20%C3%A0%20Nijeholt%201724&f=false

I own the book of Sixma van Heemstra. It contains scans of the MS pages 6-11 and a translation into French. He suspects Hessel Vegelin qui a redige le texte de l' VVra Linda Bok. He compares Frya with Holy Mary and so on I don't think this book will help us. By the way, I met Jacques Fernaut a few weeks ago.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Knul

[Abramelin]

I own the book of Sixma van Heemstra. It contains scans of the MS pages 6-11 and a translation into French. He suspects Hessel Vegelin qui a redige le texte de l' VVra Linda Bok. He compares Frya with Holy Mary and so on I don't think this book will help us. By the way, I met Jacques Fernaut a few weeks ago.

Well, that IS interesting.

You met Fernaut weeks ago; why was he here, if I may ask?

So you have Sixma van Heemstra's booklet. Can you tell us a bit more about his theory, I mean more then we can find online? Or maybe you can post a scan of his literature/reference list?

Btw: about "Holy Mary"... I remember I have posted about the Frisians venerating Mary.

.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Here is what I posted about Mary :

< skip >

The Frisian Freedom

To the Frisians personal and political freedom is one the most important values. In the Middle Ages this craving for freedom grew into bitter resistance against the feudal system. The Frisians developed an ideology of their own. That is the reason why the Frisians refused to acknowledge any authority except the Roman German Emperor. Though this ideology was challenged as early as the Middle Ages, it persisted till 1498. Not only in the period of the Republic, but also in present-day The Netherlands, this Frisian ideal of freedom has been kept alive.

And something about them venerating 'mothers':

The Battle

During the Middle Ages the Frisian autonomy was constantly attacked. Secular and religious rulers continued to lay claims on the "Seven Frisian Sealands". The battle appealing to the imagination most was that of young Count William's IV of Holland and Hainaut who advanced on 26 September 1345. The Count was an experienced crusader and some towns from the County of Holland supported the adventure. His army sailed from West Friesland to Stavoren. The Frisians managed to crush the noblemen and even William IV was killed. The Frisians regarded Saint Mary as their heavenly patroness and for that reason September 26 became the Frisian Our Lady Day The victory resulted in the Frisians keeping their independence another 150 years.

http://www.betinking-slachbywarns.nl/tekst/EN/red_cliff.html

Edited November 29, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

The following book was in the possession of J.H. Halbertsma: Archaeologica, vol. 38 'On lake dwellings of the early periods', geschreven door W.M. Wylie (1859).

That is just "another coincidence"... right?

There are too many "coincidences" in this whole OLB thing.