[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

Merry Christmas everyone here!

Santa's sleigh is passing now while Orion watches him.

The Sun has had a long day, as the Centaur moves on in.

Peace and best wishes guys, here's to a good year of OLB discussions!

Same to you, Puzz !

[Abramelin]

And what about people in the 19th century?

Here's a picture that tells us of what they still believed in would happen when a comet appeared:

One view of comets as destroyers of worlds in 1857.

(Original source unknown)

http://www.astronomynotes.com/solfluf/s7.htm

==

Puzz, I found that book of Aristotle concerning meteorology (and comets):

BOOK I

Meteorology By Aristotle

Translated by E. W. Webster

http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/aristotle_meteorology01.htm

An interesting read.

[Abramelin]

Title: The Probable Apparition of Halley's Comet in 2320 B.C.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1956AcA.....6....3K

Edited December 24, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

And what about people in the 19th century?

Here's a picture that tells us of what they still believed in would happen when a comet appeared:

One view of comets as destroyers of worlds in 1857.

(Original source unknown)

http://www.astronomynotes.com/solfluf/s7.htm

==

Puzz, I found that book of Aristotle concerning meteorology (and comets):

BOOK I

Meteorology By Aristotle

Translated by E. W. Webster

http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/aristotle_meteorology01.htm

An interesting read.

Yes it is, he mentions what the Pythagoreans thought a lot as well - that is a great picture above too, it must have been in our consciousness from something.

This book has mention of something I pointed out before but wanted to chase up more, an (unconfirmed) earthquake in Zagazig, Egyptian Delta, c. 2200BC.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=fxnnk2inWT0C&pg=PA107&lpg=PA107&dq=2200+BC+earthquake+egypt&source=bl&ots=GnnXKDY8dS&sig=UIRFDwes-zbaicZfLTnIclG5KF4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FPH1TuC4K5SkiQet_fjXCw&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=2200%20BC%20earthquake%20egypt&f=false

My pick for a comet impact would be the Kaali impact crater site in Saaremaa, Finland, at 2194BC - if I thought it occurred at all. (Which it may have).

Edited December 24, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Yes it is, he mentions what the Pythagoreans thought a lot as well - that is a great picture above too, it must have been in our consciousness from something.

This book has mention of something I pointed out before but wanted to chase up more, an (unconfirmed) earthquake in Zagazig, Egyptian Delta, c. 2200BC.

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=fxnnk2inWT0C&pg=PA107&lpg=PA107&dq=2200+BC+earthquake+egypt&source=bl&ots=GnnXKDY8dS&sig=UIRFDwes-zbaicZfLTnIclG5KF4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=FPH1TuC4K5SkiQet_fjXCw&sqi=2&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=2200%20BC%20earthquake%20egypt&f=false

My pick for a comet impact would be the Kaali impact crater site in Saaremaa, Finland, at 2194BC - if I thought it occurred at all. (Which it may have).

In our consciousness.. well, people connected dots, and came to the conclusion that everytime something important happened - war, a king died, invasions, earthquakes, and so on - a comet was up in the heavens, and so they assumed it was the comet causing all this. Btw, if you again check the scan I made from that astrology book, the part about the mayhem comets were supposed to cause, you'll read that the most 'dangerous' thing to happen is a comet showing up when planets are lined up (a conjunction). and preferably in a 'water sign' (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces). It could give us a clue to that 2194 BC date of the OLB (still assuming some of the writers were into astrology).

==

About the Kaali crater: check the world map on this site:

http://www.astronomynotes.com/solfluf/s5.htm

You'll see a LOT of craters in Scandinavia/the Baltic and Botnic.

And *I* also see one on the Pamir plateau...

(( A general description is given of a newly found crater about 11 km from the mouth of the Southern Bazar-Dara River, a tributary of the Alichur River in the Pamir plateau region. The crater is a regular circle in shape, with upper diameter of 115 m and bottom diameter of 80 m, and its maximal depth is 16 m. The following facts suggest the meteoritic origin of the crater: (1) the regular circular contours, which are not related to the features of glacial or modern relief-forming processes in the eastern Pamir, (2) the cup-like shape and depth-to-diameter ratio characteristic of many meteoritic craters, (3) evidence of previous existence of a low bordering billow, and (4) positive results of preliminary geophysical measurements.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1976DoTad..19...41K ))

But no dates, nada.

They could all be millions of years old.

.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

In our consciousness.. well, people connected dots, and came to the conclusion that everytime something important happened - war, a king died, invasions, earthquakes, and so on - a comet was up in the heavens, and so they assumed it was the comet causing all this. Btw, if you again check the scan I made from that astrology book, the part about the mayhem comets were supposed to cause, you'll read that the most 'dangerous' thing to happen is a comet showing up when planets are lined up (a conjunction). and preferably in a 'water sign' (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces). It could give us a clue to that 2194 BC date of the OLB (still assuming some of the writers were into astrology).

==

About the Kaali crater: check the world map on this site:

http://www.astronomynotes.com/solfluf/s5.htm

You'll see a LOT of craters in Scandinavia/the Baltic and Botnic.

And *I* also see one on the Pamir plateau...

(( A general description is given of a newly found crater about 11 km from the mouth of the Southern Bazar-Dara River, a tributary of the Alichur River in the Pamir plateau region. The crater is a regular circle in shape, with upper diameter of 115 m and bottom diameter of 80 m, and its maximal depth is 16 m. The following facts suggest the meteoritic origin of the crater: (1) the regular circular contours, which are not related to the features of glacial or modern relief-forming processes in the eastern Pamir, (2) the cup-like shape and depth-to-diameter ratio characteristic of many meteoritic craters, (3) evidence of previous existence of a low bordering billow, and (4) positive results of preliminary geophysical measurements.

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1976DoTad..19...41K ))

But no dates, nada.

They could all be millions of years old.

.

Yes but Kaali may not be that old (millions of years), it is considered to be around 4000 years old and it does have myths attached to it. The age is questionable but generally given as at least in human memory and 4000 years old is often cited. Other earlier smaller impacts may be showing older dates even, but I think it's a good candidate for many reasons.

Kaali is a group of 9 meteorite craters located on the Estonian island of Saaremaa.[1] Formed in the 7th century BC or about 4000 years ago (estimates vary), it is one of the most recent craters created by an impact event and the only known major impact event that has occurred in a populated area.

Because of it's age, even though it varies, it's still the only impact that is recorded as being part of myths such as new Suns falling from the sky or where the sun went to rest - I'd be pretty positive it's the Phaethon myth, if Phaethon is not the Pole Star that is. Finnish/Estonians of 2000BC age, witness and are survivors of a meteor impact, the whole area suffers mass earthquakes, the Sun falls from the sky, the water engulfs the land etc...

Scholars maintain that the event figured prominently in regional mythology. It was, and still is, considered a sacred lake. There is archaeological evidence that it may well have been a place of ritual sacrifice. At some point during the early Iron Age, the lake was surrounded by a stone wall measuring 470 meters in length, with a median width of about 2.5 meters and an average height of 2.0 meters.[citation needed]

Finnish mythology has stories that may originate with the formation of Kaali. One of them is in runes 47, 48 and 49 of the Kalevala epic: Louhi, the evil wizard, steals the Sun and fire from people, causing total darkness. Ukko, the god of the sky, orders a new Sun to be made from a spark. The virgin of the air starts to make a new Sun, but the spark drops from the sky and hits the ground. This spark goes to an "Aluen" or "Kalevan"[3] lake and causes its water to rise. Finnish heroes see the ball of fire falling somewhere "behind the Neva river" (the direction of Estonia from Karelia). The heroes head that direction to seek fire, and they finally gather flames from a forest fire.

According to a theory first proposed by Lennart Meri, it is possible that Saaremaa was the legendary Thule island, first mentioned by ancient Greek geographer Pytheas, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire") and the folklore of Estonia, which depicts the birth of the crater lake in Kaali. Kaali was considered the place where "The sun went to rest."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaali_crater

Then you have Kaali, the Goddess in India Kaali in her fearful form associated with cremation grounds and corpses stands as a reminder of the inevitability of death and decay.

http://www.templenet.com/beliefs/kaali.htm

Location:

http://muinas.struktuur.ee/projektid/ecp/kaali/en/index.html

More about myths of Kaali craters...

Lennart Meri has analysed the possible reflections of the Kaali catastrophe in human recollections in his books "Hõbevalge" and "Hõbevalgem", connecting Saaremaa with the mythical Thule, supposedly visited by the Greek traveller Pytheas in 325 BC, and also with the place of worship of the Germanic goddess of land, Nerthus, described by Tacitus. Besides the written sources, the falling of the Kaali meteorite was indubitably reflected in the folklore and mythology of several peoples. The falling of Sun from the sky, which, depending of the location of the observer, could occur altogether in the wrong quarter of the horizon, the terrible crash, the all-demolishing impactwave, the cloud of dust and forest fires indubitably left a deep impression in the people of that time. Several verses of the Finnish epic "Kalevala", the ancient Germanic "Older Edda" as well as in the folklore of Estonia and the neighbouring peoples indicate that impression.

The ancient Greek myth about Phaeton, the son of Sun, who, driving the solar chariot, lost the power over the horses and tumbled into the mysterious river of Eridanos, also leads one's thoughts to the Kaali catastrophe.

One day a young man stepped up to the God of Sun and claimed that he was Phaeton, the son of the God of Sun himself and an earthborn woman Klymene. The young man had doubted his high parentage and demanded affirmation. The God of Sun admitted it, and, as an affirmation, promised to carry out his fondest wish. The boy, who had often admired sun disc's journey across the firmament, uttered an unexpected wish: he wanted to drive the sun chariot across the sky.

Hearing that, the God of Sun regretted his easily given promise. He tried to persuade the youngster to wish for something else, but without success. The boy, taking no heed of the menaces he was told about, had his will. At first the drive came off quite well and Phaeton felt himself almost the lord of the sky. But then the things took a tragic turn: the spirited horses, feeling that the reins were in weak hands, became frisky and sheered from the right direction. The youngster lost power over the horses, who now dashed up to the skies, now turned right down to the Earth so that forests and fields there caught fire, rivers and fountains evaporated and dried out.

When the cries and lamentations from the Earth reached Jupiter's ears, the latter, in this emergency, seized his lightning bolts and punished the irresponsible charioteer. The blazing Phaeton shot through the air and fell on the Earth into the mysterious river of Eridanos, which no mortal eye has seen. Phaeton's sisters Heliads, daughters of the God of Sun, Helios, sought out their brother's grave to bemoan him there. The mourning sisters were turned into poplar trees on the banks of Eridanos.

http://muinas.struktuur.ee/projektid/ecp/kaali/en/html/legends.html

That cried tears of amber. The myth itself contains climate catastrophes: who now dashed up to the skies, now turned right down to the Earth so that forests and fields there caught fire, rivers and fountains evaporated and dried out.

When the cries and lamentations from the Earth reached Jupiter's ears, the latter, in this emergency, seized his lightning bolts and punished the irresponsible charioteer. The blazing Phaeton shot through the air

It would appear it occurred when the Earth got hot and dried out, ie; c.2200BC. even though it's part of a cycle, it is certainly possible an impact of that kind might contribute (co-incidently) to a more extreme weather change. imo.

These people may have spread out after this, Finnish/Estonians.

I'll suss out the star charts again tomorrow but now I must get some sleep.

Edited December 24, 2011 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

But would the comet impact creating the Kaali Crater be the one that tilted the earth's axis, or cause volcanoes to erupt, lands to submerge or rise up and so on?

From the size of the crater I would say it was peanuts http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/78/Kaali_main_crater_on_2005-08-10.3.jpg , despite it creating fear among the people watching the comet and its impact.

.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

A thread of 600 pages.

Do we all win a prize now?

Lol.

This is a topic I really love, and I am sure an Otharus, Knul, Alewyn, Cormac, you Puzz, and maybe some others really love it also.

Just think: we covered linguistics, etymology, ancient myths, maps, geology, astronomy, ancient history, and god knows what else.

And that aside of all the bickering, lol (and I do know I am guilty of that, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa).

.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

Yes but Kaali may not be that old (millions of years), it is considered to be around 4000 years old and it does have myths attached to it. The age is questionable but generally given as at least in human memory and 4000 years old is often cited. Other earlier smaller impacts may be showing older dates even, but I think it's a good candidate for many reasons.

Kaali is a group of 9 meteorite craters located on the Estonian island of Saaremaa.[1] Formed in the 7th century BC or about 4000 years ago (estimates vary), it is one of the most recent craters created by an impact event and the only known major impact event that has occurred in a populated area.

Because of it's age, even though it varies, it's still the only impact that is recorded as being part of myths such as new Suns falling from the sky or where the sun went to rest - I'd be pretty positive it's the Phaethon myth, if Phaethon is not the Pole Star that is. Finnish/Estonians of 2000BC age, witness and are survivors of a meteor impact, the whole area suffers mass earthquakes, the Sun falls from the sky, the water engulfs the land etc...

Scholars maintain that the event figured prominently in regional mythology. It was, and still is, considered a sacred lake. There is archaeological evidence that it may well have been a place of ritual sacrifice. At some point during the early Iron Age, the lake was surrounded by a stone wall measuring 470 meters in length, with a median width of about 2.5 meters and an average height of 2.0 meters.[citation needed]

Finnish mythology has stories that may originate with the formation of Kaali. One of them is in runes 47, 48 and 49 of the Kalevala epic: Louhi, the evil wizard, steals the Sun and fire from people, causing total darkness. Ukko, the god of the sky, orders a new Sun to be made from a spark. The virgin of the air starts to make a new Sun, but the spark drops from the sky and hits the ground. This spark goes to an "Aluen" or "Kalevan"[3] lake and causes its water to rise. Finnish heroes see the ball of fire falling somewhere "behind the Neva river" (the direction of Estonia from Karelia). The heroes head that direction to seek fire, and they finally gather flames from a forest fire.

According to a theory first proposed by Lennart Meri, it is possible that Saaremaa was the legendary Thule island, first mentioned by ancient Greek geographer Pytheas, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire") and the folklore of Estonia, which depicts the birth of the crater lake in Kaali. Kaali was considered the place where "The sun went to rest."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaali_crater

Then you have Kaali, the Goddess in India Kaali in her fearful form associated with cremation grounds and corpses stands as a reminder of the inevitability of death and decay.

http://www.templenet.com/beliefs/kaali.htm

Location:

http://muinas.struktuur.ee/projektid/ecp/kaali/en/index.html

More about myths of Kaali craters...

Lennart Meri has analysed the possible reflections of the Kaali catastrophe in human recollections in his books "Hõbevalge" and "Hõbevalgem", connecting Saaremaa with the mythical Thule, supposedly visited by the Greek traveller Pytheas in 325 BC, and also with the place of worship of the Germanic goddess of land, Nerthus, described by Tacitus. Besides the written sources, the falling of the Kaali meteorite was indubitably reflected in the folklore and mythology of several peoples. The falling of Sun from the sky, which, depending of the location of the observer, could occur altogether in the wrong quarter of the horizon, the terrible crash, the all-demolishing impactwave, the cloud of dust and forest fires indubitably left a deep impression in the people of that time. Several verses of the Finnish epic "Kalevala", the ancient Germanic "Older Edda" as well as in the folklore of Estonia and the neighbouring peoples indicate that impression.

The ancient Greek myth about Phaeton, the son of Sun, who, driving the solar chariot, lost the power over the horses and tumbled into the mysterious river of Eridanos, also leads one's thoughts to the Kaali catastrophe.

One day a young man stepped up to the God of Sun and claimed that he was Phaeton, the son of the God of Sun himself and an earthborn woman Klymene. The young man had doubted his high parentage and demanded affirmation. The God of Sun admitted it, and, as an affirmation, promised to carry out his fondest wish. The boy, who had often admired sun disc's journey across the firmament, uttered an unexpected wish: he wanted to drive the sun chariot across the sky.

Hearing that, the God of Sun regretted his easily given promise. He tried to persuade the youngster to wish for something else, but without success. The boy, taking no heed of the menaces he was told about, had his will. At first the drive came off quite well and Phaeton felt himself almost the lord of the sky. But then the things took a tragic turn: the spirited horses, feeling that the reins were in weak hands, became frisky and sheered from the right direction. The youngster lost power over the horses, who now dashed up to the skies, now turned right down to the Earth so that forests and fields there caught fire, rivers and fountains evaporated and dried out.

When the cries and lamentations from the Earth reached Jupiter's ears, the latter, in this emergency, seized his lightning bolts and punished the irresponsible charioteer. The blazing Phaeton shot through the air and fell on the Earth into the mysterious river of Eridanos, which no mortal eye has seen. Phaeton's sisters Heliads, daughters of the God of Sun, Helios, sought out their brother's grave to bemoan him there. The mourning sisters were turned into poplar trees on the banks of Eridanos.

http://muinas.struktuur.ee/projektid/ecp/kaali/en/html/legends.html

That cried tears of amber. The myth itself contains climate catastrophes: who now dashed up to the skies, now turned right down to the Earth so that forests and fields there caught fire, rivers and fountains evaporated and dried out.

When the cries and lamentations from the Earth reached Jupiter's ears, the latter, in this emergency, seized his lightning bolts and punished the irresponsible charioteer. The blazing Phaeton shot through the air

It would appear it occurred when the Earth got hot and dried out, ie; c.2200BC. even though it's part of a cycle, it is certainly possible an impact of that kind might contribute (co-incidently) to a more extreme weather change. imo.

These people may have spread out after this, Finnish/Estonians.

I'll suss out the star charts again tomorrow but now I must get some sleep.

Not according to your most recent link from the article "The Kaali crater field and other geosites of Saaremaa Island (Estonia): the perspectives for a geopark". The OS and TSL dates would place the impactors at a point in time prior to c.3600 BC making any impactor/impactors irrelevant to the discussion of the OLB.

cormac

[Abramelin]

Not according to your most recent link from the article "The Kaali crater field and other geosites of Saaremaa Island (Estonia): the perspectives for a geopark". The OS and TSL dates would place the impactors at a point in time prior to c.3600 BC making any impactor/impactors irrelevant to the discussion of the OLB.

cormac

I found a scientific paper about the Kaali Crater:

http://www.theplasmaverse.com/pdfs/geulogy/The-Kaali-crater-field-Saaremaa-Island-Estonia.pdf

[cormac mac airt]

I found a scientific paper about the Kaali Crater:

http://www.theplasmaverse.com/pdfs/geulogy/The-Kaali-crater-field-Saaremaa-Island-Estonia.pdf

That's the article I'm talking about Abramelin. The one that Puzzler tried to show as somehow relevant to the OLB. It's not. Take a good look at the OSL/TL dates for the various craters.

cormac

[Abramelin]

That's the article I'm talking about Abramelin. The one that Puzzler tried to show as somehow relevant to the OLB. It's not. Take a good look at the OSL/TL dates for the various craters.

cormac

I did, and that's why I posted the link.

======

Puzz quoted:

"Then you have Kaali, the Goddess in India Kaali in her fearful form associated with cremation grounds and corpses stands as a reminder of the inevitability of death and decay."

And this is what I posted on November 16, 2011:

"Kaali" is Finnish for "cabbage", lol

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lehtikaali

And the Indian goddess is not called "Kaali" but "Kali".

.

Edited December 24, 2011 by Abramelin

[cormac mac airt]

I did, and that's why I posted the link.

======

Puzz quoted:

"Then you have Kaali, the Goddess in India Kaali in her fearful form associated with cremation grounds and corpses stands as a reminder of the inevitability of death and decay."

And this is what I posted on November 16, 2011:

"Kaali" is Finnish for "cabbage", lol

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lehtikaali

And the Indian goddess is not called "Kaali" but "Kali"..

Well, unless she was in charge of death by cabbage.

cormac

[Otharus]

Jolly Yule!

Christmas - English

Kerstmis/ Kerst(-feest) - Dutch

Weihnachten/ Christfest - German

Jul - Danish

Jul - Swedish

Jul/ Jol - Norwegian

Jól - Icelandic

Fragments with "JOL" (Joel, Yol, Juul, Yule, Wheel) in OLB

JOL.FÉRSTE = Jol-feast

JOL.TID = Jol-time

JOL.DÉI = Jol-day

In verb:

JOLDON = cheered, howled

JOLANDE = cheering, howling

{original fragments from OLB with page and line number; O+S = Ottema (Dutch) and Sandbach (English) translations from 1876, with minimal corrections}

[002/16]

ALTOMET TVILDON ÀND JOLDON HJA TO SAMNE VPPA HÉM

JEFTHA HJA WÉRON MITH EKKORUM BY THÉRE HÉRD

[O+S p.7]

Somtijds dartelden en joelden zij te zamen op het hiem,

of zij waren met elkander bij den haard

They played and gamboled [howled] together in the fields,

and were also together by the hearth

[006/19]

AFTER.ET TWILIFTE JOL.FÉRSTE BÀRDE HJU THRJA MANGÉRTA

[O+S p.13]

Na het twaalfde Juulfeest bragt zij voort drie maagden

After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens

[006/30]

ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA.

EK JOL.TID TWÉN

[O+S p.13]

En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren,

elke juultijd een paar

They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters —

at every Juul-time a couple

[014/10]

ALLE SETMA THÉR EN ÉW. THÀT IS HVNDRED JÉR OMHLÁPA MÜGE

MITH THA KRODAR ÀND SIN JOL [...]

[O+S p.23]

Alle inzettingen die eene eeuw, dat is honderd jaren, mogen omloopen

met den Kroder (kruijer) en zijn Juul [...]

All the regulations which have existed [can go round] a century, that is, a hundred years

[with the carrier and his Wheel] [...]

[020/21]

ALLE.T MÀRK.JELD MOT JÉRLIKES DÉLATH WRDE.

THRJA DÉGAN FAR THÉRE JOL.DÉI

[O+S p.33]

Al het marktgeld moet jaarlijks verdeeld worden,

drie dagen voor den Juuldag

All the market receipts must be divided yearly [...]

three days before the Juul-day

[037/24]

THA FOLK BIGOST TO JOLANDE ÀN TO SPOTANDE

[O+S p.55]

Het volk begon te joelen en te spotten

The people began to mock [howl] and to jeer

[045/09]

HWÀT HIR BOPPA STÀT SEND THI TÉKNA FON THÀT JOL

[O+S p.65]

Wat hier boven staat, dat zijn de teekens van het Juul

What appears at the top is the signs of the Juul

[045/12]

THÀT IS THENE KRODER THÉR ÉVG MITH THÀT JOL MOT OMMEHLÁPE

[O+S p.65]

deze is de Kroder, die eeuwig met het Juul moet rondloopen

this is the Kroder, which must always go round with the Juul

[045/30]

MEN HJA NISTON NAVT GOD THÀT.ET FON ET JOL MÁKAD WAS

ÀND THAT.ET THÉRUMBE ALTID SKRÉVEN WRDEN MOSTE. MITH SON OM

[O+S p.67]

Maar zij wisten niet goed, dat het van het Juul gemaakt was,

en dat het daarom altijd moest geschreven worden met de zon om

but they did not know that it was taken from the Juul,

and must therefore always be written round like the sun

[052/22]

ACTHTANTICH JÉR FORTHER. JUST WÉRET JOL.FÉRSTE.

THÉR KÉMON HJA VNWARLINGE LIK SNÉI THRVCH STORNE.WIND DRÉWEN

OVIR VSA LANDA TO RUNNANDE

[O+S p.75]

Tachtig jaren later, juist was het Juulfeest,

kwamen zij onverwacht, gelijk sneeuw door een stormwind gedreven,

over onze landen toeloopen

Eighty years afterwards, just at the time of the Juul-feest,

they overran our country like a snowstorm driven by the wind

[067/25]

LIK BLIXEN.FJVR GVNG.ET O.ERA A.LANDA.

ÀND ÉR THES KRODER.S JOL ÉNIS OMHLÁPEN HÉDE.

WAS HJU MÁSTERINNE [...]

[O+S p.95]

Als bliksemvuur ging het over de landen,

en eer des Kroders juul eens omgeloopen was,

was zij meesteres [...]

The news flew through the land like lightning,

and before the carrier's wheel had made one revolution

she was mistress [...]

[071/26]

HWAND THENE KRODER SKIL JETA FIF.THUSAND.JÉR MITH SIN JOL OMME.HLÁPA [...]

[O+S p.101]

want de Kroder zal nog vijfduizend jaren met zijn Jol omloopen [...]

because the carrier must make five thousand revolutions of his Juul

[083/22]

VNDERA TÍDUM THAT ALDLAND SVNKEN IS.

STAND THJU FORMA SPÉKE FON THET JOL AN TOP

[O+S p.115]

In de tijden, dat Atland verzonken is,

stond de eerste spaak van het Juul in top

At the time of the submersion of Atland,

the first spoke of the Juul stood at the top

[084/11]

FRYDOM. LJAFDE ÀND ÉNDRACHT SKILET FOLK IN HJARA WÁCH NÉMA

ÀND MITH THET JOL RISA UTA WLA POL

[O+S p.117]

vrijheid, liefde en eendracht zullen het volk in hare hoede nemen,

en met het juul uit de vuile poel rijzen

freedom, love, and unity will take the people under their protection,

and [with the Wheel] rise out of the vile pool

[094/02]

ALREK KÉM WITHER UT. TO JUWGANDE ÀND TO JOLANDE

[O+S p.131]

Iedereen kwam weder uit om te juichen en te joelen

the people all came out shouting with joy

[099/26]

MITH THET JOL WANDELATH ÀND WIXLATH ALLET ESKÉPNE.

MEN GOD IS ALLÉNA VNFORANDERLIK

[O+S p.137]

Met het Juul verandert en wisselt al het geschapene,

maar het goede is alleen onveranderlijk

In the progress of time [with the Wheel] all creation alters and changes,

but goodness alone is unalterable

[106/25]

SIATH HWA FONÉRE TORE DEL

SA SIATH HI THJU DÁNTE FON.ET JOL

[O+S p.147]

Ziet iemand boven van den toren naar beneden,

dan ziet hij de gedaante van het Juul

If one looks down from the tower,

he sees the form of the Juul

[189/02]

BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FÁM.

VPSÉID TO STÁVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE

[O+S p.229]

Brief van Rika de oudmaagd,

voorgelezen te Staveren bij het juulfeest

Letter of Rika the Oudmaagd [Oldfam],

read at Staveren at the Juul Feast

[192/27]

NIMMAN SKIL.ER ÀWET AN BÊTRA NE MÜGE

BIFÁRA THÀT JOL INOP EN ÔRE HLÁP.HRING TRÉTH

[O+S p.233]

niemand zal er iets aan kunnen verbeteren,

bevorens het Juul een anderen loopkring intreedt

they shall receive no succour

before the Juul shall enter upon a new circuit

[Abramelin]

You forgot about Juul (Juliana), the former queen of the Netherlands, lol.

[Abramelin]

Saw this on EBay a minute ago:

Ancient Frisian Navigation By Bird Flight 1920s Card

[Otharus]

You forgot about Juul (Juliana), the former queen of the Netherlands, lol.

Juliana, Julius, Jules, Yolanda, etc.

Names derived from JOL.

[Knul]

Juliana, Julius, Jules, Yolanda, etc.

Names derived from JOL.

Ridiculous.

[Knul]

Jolly Yule!

Christmas - English

Kerstmis/ Kerst(-feest) - Dutch

Weihnachten/ Christfest - German

Jul - Danish

Jul - Swedish

Jul/ Jol - Norwegian

Jól - Icelandic

Fragments with "JOL" (Joel, Yol, Juul, Yule, Wheel) in OLB

JOL.FÉRSTE = Jol-feast

JOL.TID = Jol-time

JOL.DÉI = Jol-day

In verb:

JOLDON = cheered, howled

JOLANDE = cheering, howling

{original fragments from OLB with page and line number; O+S = Ottema (Dutch) and Sandbach (English) translations from 1876, with minimal corrections}

[002/16]

ALTOMET TVILDON ÀND JOLDON HJA TO SAMNE VPPA HÉM

JEFTHA HJA WÉRON MITH EKKORUM BY THÉRE HÉRD

[O+S p.7]

Somtijds dartelden en joelden zij te zamen op het hiem,

of zij waren met elkander bij den haard

They played and gamboled [howled] together in the fields,

and were also together by the hearth

[006/19]

AFTER.ET TWILIFTE JOL.FÉRSTE BÀRDE HJU THRJA MANGÉRTA

[O+S p.13]

Na het twaalfde Juulfeest bragt zij voort drie maagden

After the twelfth Juulfeest she brought forth three maidens

[006/30]

ÀND NW BÀRDON EK TWILIF SVNA ÀND TWILIF TOGETHERA.

EK JOL.TID TWÉN

[O+S p.13]

En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren,

elke juultijd een paar

They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters —

at every Juul-time a couple

[014/10]

ALLE SETMA THÉR EN ÉW. THÀT IS HVNDRED JÉR OMHLÁPA MÜGE

MITH THA KRODAR ÀND SIN JOL [...]

[O+S p.23]

Alle inzettingen die eene eeuw, dat is honderd jaren, mogen omloopen

met den Kroder (kruijer) en zijn Juul [...]

All the regulations which have existed [can go round] a century, that is, a hundred years

[with the carrier and his Wheel] [...]

[020/21]

ALLE.T MÀRK.JELD MOT JÉRLIKES DÉLATH WRDE.

THRJA DÉGAN FAR THÉRE JOL.DÉI

[O+S p.33]

Al het marktgeld moet jaarlijks verdeeld worden,

drie dagen voor den Juuldag

All the market receipts must be divided yearly [...]

three days before the Juul-day

[037/24]

THA FOLK BIGOST TO JOLANDE ÀN TO SPOTANDE

[O+S p.55]

Het volk begon te joelen en te spotten

The people began to mock [howl] and to jeer

[045/09]

HWÀT HIR BOPPA STÀT SEND THI TÉKNA FON THÀT JOL

[O+S p.65]

Wat hier boven staat, dat zijn de teekens van het Juul

What appears at the top is the signs of the Juul

[045/12]

THÀT IS THENE KRODER THÉR ÉVG MITH THÀT JOL MOT OMMEHLÁPE

[O+S p.65]

deze is de Kroder, die eeuwig met het Juul moet rondloopen

this is the Kroder, which must always go round with the Juul

[045/30]

MEN HJA NISTON NAVT GOD THÀT.ET FON ET JOL MÁKAD WAS

ÀND THAT.ET THÉRUMBE ALTID SKRÉVEN WRDEN MOSTE. MITH SON OM

[O+S p.67]

Maar zij wisten niet goed, dat het van het Juul gemaakt was,

en dat het daarom altijd moest geschreven worden met de zon om

but they did not know that it was taken from the Juul,

and must therefore always be written round like the sun

[052/22]

ACTHTANTICH JÉR FORTHER. JUST WÉRET JOL.FÉRSTE.

THÉR KÉMON HJA VNWARLINGE LIK SNÉI THRVCH STORNE.WIND DRÉWEN

OVIR VSA LANDA TO RUNNANDE

[O+S p.75]

Tachtig jaren later, juist was het Juulfeest,

kwamen zij onverwacht, gelijk sneeuw door een stormwind gedreven,

over onze landen toeloopen

Eighty years afterwards, just at the time of the Juul-feest,

they overran our country like a snowstorm driven by the wind

[067/25]

LIK BLIXEN.FJVR GVNG.ET O.ERA A.LANDA.

ÀND ÉR THES KRODER.S JOL ÉNIS OMHLÁPEN HÉDE.

WAS HJU MÁSTERINNE [...]

[O+S p.95]

Als bliksemvuur ging het over de landen,

en eer des Kroders juul eens omgeloopen was,

was zij meesteres [...]

The news flew through the land like lightning,

and before the carrier's wheel had made one revolution

she was mistress [...]

[071/26]

HWAND THENE KRODER SKIL JETA FIF.THUSAND.JÉR MITH SIN JOL OMME.HLÁPA [...]

[O+S p.101]

want de Kroder zal nog vijfduizend jaren met zijn Jol omloopen [...]

because the carrier must make five thousand revolutions of his Juul

[083/22]

VNDERA TÍDUM THAT ALDLAND SVNKEN IS.

STAND THJU FORMA SPÉKE FON THET JOL AN TOP

[O+S p.115]

In de tijden, dat Atland verzonken is,

stond de eerste spaak van het Juul in top

At the time of the submersion of Atland,

the first spoke of the Juul stood at the top

[084/11]

FRYDOM. LJAFDE ÀND ÉNDRACHT SKILET FOLK IN HJARA WÁCH NÉMA

ÀND MITH THET JOL RISA UTA WLA POL

[O+S p.117]

vrijheid, liefde en eendracht zullen het volk in hare hoede nemen,

en met het juul uit de vuile poel rijzen

freedom, love, and unity will take the people under their protection,

and [with the Wheel] rise out of the vile pool

[094/02]

ALREK KÉM WITHER UT. TO JUWGANDE ÀND TO JOLANDE

[O+S p.131]

Iedereen kwam weder uit om te juichen en te joelen

the people all came out shouting with joy

[099/26]

MITH THET JOL WANDELATH ÀND WIXLATH ALLET ESKÉPNE.

MEN GOD IS ALLÉNA VNFORANDERLIK

[O+S p.137]

Met het Juul verandert en wisselt al het geschapene,

maar het goede is alleen onveranderlijk

In the progress of time [with the Wheel] all creation alters and changes,

but goodness alone is unalterable

[106/25]

SIATH HWA FONÉRE TORE DEL

SA SIATH HI THJU DÁNTE FON.ET JOL

[O+S p.147]

Ziet iemand boven van den toren naar beneden,

dan ziet hij de gedaante van het Juul

If one looks down from the tower,

he sees the form of the Juul

[189/02]

BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FÁM.

VPSÉID TO STÁVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE

[O+S p.229]

Brief van Rika de oudmaagd,

voorgelezen te Staveren bij het juulfeest

Letter of Rika the Oudmaagd [Oldfam],

read at Staveren at the Juul Feast

[192/27]

NIMMAN SKIL.ER ÀWET AN BÊTRA NE MÜGE

BIFÁRA THÀT JOL INOP EN ÔRE HLÁP.HRING TRÉTH

[O+S p.233]

niemand zal er iets aan kunnen verbeteren,

bevorens het Juul een anderen loopkring intreedt

they shall receive no succour

before the Juul shall enter upon a new circuit

Ridiculous again. Jul / Jol etc has nothing to do with jola = joelen (Dutch)

[The Puzzler]

Not according to your most recent link from the article "The Kaali crater field and other geosites of Saaremaa Island (Estonia): the perspectives for a geopark". The OS and TSL dates would place the impactors at a point in time prior to c.3600 BC making any impactor/impactors irrelevant to the discussion of the OLB.

cormac

Right, so you think it's possible from that time frame to be mentioned in the Kalevala etc. It (the Kalevala) must be way older than what we think then. WHich in itself is extremely interesting. The reason I don't think it's that old is because of the significance of it into the myths.

Nothing is to say smaller impacts may not have occurred in the same place earlier in time and those readings are the very early ones.

Everything points to the Kaali impact being closer to 2200BC because of the knowledge they kept of it - although I am open to thinking an event at 3600BC was recalled and put into the Kalevala too.

It co-incides in description of the Phaethon myth to the exact same climate change that occurred in 2200BC as well.

Kali, Kale (vala) Kaali - Sami, Saami - you really think 1 or 2 a's is going to be a different name, it won't be - Kali and Kaali imo can be the same, I've seen and gave my Kaali Goddess link in that spelling (2 xa) - her name is Kali or Kaali. Just like Sami or Saami.

It was quite destructive, it wasn't a little plop onto the ground.

The meteor cluster had an impact velocity of 10–20 km/s and a mass of 20-80 tons. At the altitude of 5–10 km the meteor broke into pieces. The largest fragment produced the main crater with a depth of 22 m. Eight smaller craters with diameters ranging from 12 to 40 m and depths varying from 1 to 4 m are all within 1 kilometer of the main crater. The energy of the impact (about 80 TJJouleThe joule ; symbol J) is a derived unit of energy or work in the International System of Units. It is equal to the energy expended in applying a force of one newton through a distance of one metre , or in passing an electric current of one ampere through a resistance of one ohm for one second...

(20 kilotons of TNT), comparable with the Hiroshima bombLittle Boy"Little Boy" was the codename of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima on August 6, 1945 by the Boeing B-29 Superfortress Enola Gay, piloted by Colonel Paul Tibbets of the 393d Bombardment Squadron, Heavy, of the United States Army Air Forces. It was the first atomic bomb to be used as a weapon...

) burned forests within a radius of 6 km. There are numerous legends related to the crater; these are summarized by Lennart

in his book Hõbevalge.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Saaremaa

Enough imo for people to have migrated out of their with stories of the Sun falling to the Earth, where amber was, blakening out the sky, collecting the fire from it (important point) iron in Estonia, moving down into Mycenaean Greece and elsewhere, taking this story with them, held by fair-haired preistesses and shaman priests, who were able to communicate with the Gods. One group left but divided up and that is why many cultures all have the same mythology, again imo.

Cabbage means many things, it simply could mean cabbage and have a million different connotations of that word, the name might not be even Finnish. PS EDIT: It actually sounds like it might be more connected to cauliflower to me. Kaali/cauli - then I'm feeling giant fennel stalks - you know the ones that they stole fire with...

If you want to go with people recalling this event as far back as 3600BC go for it. The site is not conclusively dated anyway. I've seen everything from 7000BC to 650BC.

Don't forget also, the OLB never says 2194BC, the only thing that's giving us that date, is the Christian Reckoning.

Edited December 25, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Ridiculous.

Juliet Capulet's name would also be to do with the Yuul, Jul or Sun (wheel) - she's a Sun kinda gal, she asks Romeo not to declare his love for her by the Moon.

The 'star crossed lovers' story is way older than Shakespeare.

The Sun rolled around in a circular course, around the Earth (they thought), made a wheel track around us, which at each Juul time, came to a complete circle/circuit, which was celebrated.

Firey wheels etc are all just the Sun, wheeling around it's path. That imo is the Juul.

Edited December 25, 2011 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Saw this on EBay a minute ago:

Ancient Frisian Navigation By Bird Flight 1920s Card

Cool find.

Bird flight, I suggested once that Athena might have been an ancient bird Goddess who directed sailors along in such a way.

[Knul]

Juliet Capulet's name would also be to do with the Yuul, Jul or Sun (wheel) - she's a Sun kinda gal, she asks Romeo not to declare his love for her by the Moon.

The 'star crossed lovers' story is way older than Shakespeare.

The Sun rolled around in a circular course, around the Earth (they thought), made a wheel track around us, which at each Juul time, came to a complete circle/circuit, which was celebrated.

Firey wheels etc are all just the Sun, wheeling around it's path. That imo is the Juul.

Jule, Jules, Julia, Julian, Juliana, Juliaan, Julianne, Julie, Julien, Juliën, Juliët, Juliette Juliëtte, Jiliska, Julius, Juul, Juult, Jill, Liane, Lianne, Lili - De jongeling, de jeugdige, gewijd aan Jupiter (Greek ioulios = young, youth). Jol, jul, etc. has its origin in northern Europe (Scandinavians), whereas names derived from ioulios come from Greek and Latin, which has nothing to do with jol, jul, etc.

Edited December 25, 2011 by Knul

[The Puzzler]

Jule, Jules, Julia, Julian, Juliana, Juliaan, Julianne, Julie, Julien, Juliën, Juliët, Juliette Juliëtte, Jiliska, Julius, Juul, Juult, Jill, Liane, Lianne, Lili - De jongeling, de jeugdige, gewijd aan Jupiter (Greek ioulios = young, youth). Jol, jul, etc. has its origin in northern Europe, whereas names derived from ioulios come from Greek and Latin, which has nothing to do with jol, jul, etc.

ioulios sounds like Helios. It will have everything to do with each other imo.

[The Puzzler]

He was handsome and youthful. (ioulios)

Helios was imagined as a handsome god crowned with the shining aureole of the Sun, who drove the chariot of the sun across the sky each day to earth-circling Oceanus and through the world-ocean returned to the East at night.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios

His equivalent in Rome was Sol, which sounds alot like Jol really.

His daughters were the Heliades, who cried tears of amber.

L.R. Farnell assumed "that sun-worship had once been prevalent and powerful among the people of the pre-Hellenic culture, but that very few of the communities of the later historic period retained it as a potent factor of the state religion."

In Plato's Republic (516B), Helios, the Sun, is the symbolic offspring of the idea of the Good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helios