Abramelin Posted January 9, 2012 #9376 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) I'm fully aware of the giggles and laughs of the 'scientific establishment' and others when talking about Goropian etymology. But I'm also aware what a fixed idea that is repeated from childhood on, can do with even the most inquisitive minds. There is a reason for those 'giggles and laughs', Van Gorp. Enjoy: Ratherious, who built Rotterdam Marcomer "who brought the people to Friesland: Antenor of Troy, King of Cimmerian Polydore http://genforum.genealogy.com/underhill/messages/173.html SAXON IDENTITY ADAM TO CHARLEMAGNE Ratherious d. 90 - built Rotterdam Marcomir - "who brought the people to Friesland." http://www.richardhoskins.com/gen3.htm'>http://www.richardhoskins.com/gen3.htm http://www.richardhoskins.com/ http://www.richardhoskins.com/2_hr0197.htm SAXON IDENTITY ADAM TO WILLIAM THE CONQUERER ODIN - Warrior king, Honored ancestor of Saxons. Worshipped as a god by Odinists. http://www.richardhoskins.com/gen4.htm Adamic Israel existed before governments or churches. God made His contracts and covenants with Adam and the sons of Isaac (Issac-sons; Saxons); and with their descendants forever. We are those descendants. We know our identity. We know our inheritance. http://www.richardhoskins.com/2_hr0197.htm == Liber Historiae Francorum It is one of a corpus of new books of history written in the 8th century, and copied and widely distributed in the 9th, which offered their readers (and listeners) a deep background that set the Franks only distantly in the context of the Roman Empire (the Roman Empire is virtually ignored) and more immediately in the Christian Gallo-Roman world. From the outset, the book promises to present the origins and deeds of the Frankish kings and people. It tells that the Franks originated with a group of Trojan refugees who found themselves on the north coast of the Black Sea and thence made their way across the Danubian plain to the Rhineland; in this, it relies heavily upon the Gallo-Roman bishop and historian Gregory of Tours (d. 594), whose history it epitomizes, occasionally corrects[4]and parallels. The last eleven chapters, 43-53 in Krusch's edition, present an independent account of events in the Frankish lands in the 7th and early 8th centuries and attract historians' interest, as they cover ground not lighted by any other source. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liber_Historiae_Francorum 1850- The French under the Merovingians – Jean-Charles-Léonard Simonde Sismondi http://books.google.nl/ebooks/reader?id=O-ZAAAAAYAAJ&client=firefox-a&hl=nl&printsec=frontcover&output=reader http://books.google.nl/books?id=GBhoAAAAMAAJ&as_brr=1&client=firefox-a&pg=RA1-PA215&redir_esc=y http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharamond The Sicambri The Cimmerians changed their tribal name to "The Sicambri," joining a Germanic tribe living around the lower Rhine near the present-day Netherlands. The name change was done to honor Antenor's wife. http://www.homeofourfathers.com/lisbeth/genealogyadamtowally.htm Alle strând aend skor hêmar fon-a Dênemarka alont thêre Saendfal nw Skelda wrdon Stjurar, Sêkaempar aend Angelara hêton. All those who lived between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen). † Sêkâmpar, in Latin Sicambri http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/ . Edited January 9, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 9, 2012 #9377 Share Posted January 9, 2012 Page 27 of: The whole works of King Alfred the Great: with preliminary essays ..., Volume 2 - Alfred (King of England), Alfred Committee / 1858 http://books.google.nl/books?id=pDtaAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_atb#v=onepage&q&f=false Alle strând aend skor hêmar fon-a Dênemarka alont thêre Saendfal nw Skelda wrdon Stjurar, Sêkaempar aend Angelara hêton. Angelara sâ hêton mân to fora tha butafiskar vmbe that hja alan mith angel jefta kol fiskton aend nimmer nên netum. All those who lived between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen). The Angelaren were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets. http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 9, 2012 #9378 Share Posted January 9, 2012 (edited) Maybe I should have added that this explanation of the name of the Angels (OLB: " Angelara") only showed up in the OLB,...AND.. in a book about Alfred the Great, a decade or so before the OLB was published. . Edited January 9, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 10, 2012 #9379 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Hi Puzzler, I think in general I have sympathetic feelings to the view of Becanus when he expresses his belief in the existence of a quasi pan-European language system that predates Latin and Greek 'culture'&language. Common because it originated by the migration of the same people (root-tribe?), but with local differences as they settled in different times/regions. The word "barbarians" is used to define all what was non Roman, while cultural level could be far greater than their own. A language spoken by local people, which stands on its own and lays on the basis of many Latin/Greek words, not the contrary as we are told/learned in general. I haven't gone that far to believe that Adam&Eve were living in Brabant and talking Kempsch :-) But who am I ... I that sense, I can fully understand Abramelin (see one of his previous posts) that he points to the fact that a kind of 'nationalism' can come forth as Becanus saying: "It was Brabant that was the core" or Frysians that say "It all originated in Friesland". But what for me seems to be important is the fact that in these language variations, words can be explained much better than the Latin counterparts. At the end of the search you'll see in Latin etymology many cases where 'origin' is unknown. While the origin explained likewise Becanus, Schrieck, Scioppius, ... goes further in understanding why words are the words they are. Another fact that supports this feeling, is the Latin rise in Europe involved in many cases the suppression of local culture. A great tool to alienate people from their own background is twisting their views of their own history by twisting the origin of language and events. I'm fully aware of the giggles and laughs of the 'scientific establishment' and others when talking about Goropian etymology. But I'm also aware what a fixed idea that is repeated from childhood on, can do with even the most inquisitive minds. Chearfull to see that we don't censor ourselves a priori to fit the mainstream views. Only my opinion ... Very good, I agree with much you say here. Thank you for your time in giving me your opinion. ' You said: "At the end of the search you'll see in Latin etymology many cases where 'origin' is unknown" Absolutely, I see it all the time. Short on time now, back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 10, 2012 #9380 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) I will add later, I couldn't add a link I wanted to. Edited January 10, 2012 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knul Posted January 10, 2012 #9381 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) Maybe I should have added that this explanation of the name of the Angels (OLB: " Angelara") only showed up in the OLB,...AND.. in a book about Alfred the Great, a decade or so before the OLB was published. . It might be an indication for Halbertsma, who studied the relationship between the English and the Frisians.Who else would have known this ? It's worthwile to see, if there are other references of names of peoples too., which occur in the OLB. Edited January 10, 2012 by Knul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 10, 2012 #9382 Share Posted January 10, 2012 (edited) It might be an indication for Halbertsma, who studied the relationship between the English and the Frisians.Who else would have known this ? It's worthwile to see, if there are other references of names of peoples too., which occur in the OLB. Halbertsma did study the texts about and by Alfred the Great: http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_voo004199901_01/_voo004199901_01_0008.php From the Halbertsma Library ("Bibliotheek Halbertsma"): Beda Venerabilis, 12542676! Historiae ecclesiasticae gentis Anglorum libri V : Latine et Saxonice, una cum reliquis ejus operibus historicis / 12542676! Beda Venerabilis ; [cum interpretatione Saxonica a rege Alfredo] ... ; cura et studio Johan. Smith : [edente G. Smith fil.]. - Cantabrigiae : typis academicis, 1722. - p. : ill. ; fol Index. Sign.: 3758 G fol Bibliotheek Halbertsma. - Eigendomsmerk: J.H. Halbertsma Boethius King Alfred's Anglo-Saxon version of the metres of Boethius / with an English transl. by Sam. Fox. - London, 1835. - p. ; 8/ Sign.: 1797 TL Bibliotheek Halbertsma Bosworth, J. King Alfred's Anglo-Saxon version of the compendious history of the world by Orosius / J. Bosworth. - London : Longman, 1859. - 396 p. : ill. ; 26 cm Containing: facsimile specimens of the Lauderdale and Cotton MSS; a preface describing these MSS., etc.; an introduction on Orosius and his works; the Anglo-Saxon text; notes and various readings; a map of Europe, Asia, and Africa, according to Orosius and Alfred. Sign.: 1796 TL present-exemplaar van J. Bosworth aan J.H. Halbertsma http://www.fryske-akademy.nl/fileadmin/Afbeeldingen/Hoofdpagina/pdf_files/pbhalb.pdf . Edited January 10, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 10, 2012 #9383 Share Posted January 10, 2012 There are times I think we should invite Dan Brown to his thread, lol. Read this: Left: Charlemagne (far left) and Jefferson (near left) (a proposed Phoenician connection based on the male Y-chromosome DNA evidence and depending critically upon Jefferson's descent from Charlemagne in a direct male line, the Phoenician descent of Jefferson being according to actual DNA studies of the Y-chromosome common to Jefferson males, which is typed as K2, evident in Spanish populations, the Middle East, and Northern Africa, where the descendants of Feniusa Farsa are recorded as having lived. These people are also called the Feiné or Phœné.) The enormous significance of this discovery has been that it has led to the prospect that Charlemagne the famous Frankish King is descended from the male-line of a Phoenician, insofar as Jefferson is believed to be a male-line descendant of Charlemagne. - Left: The Phoenician Alphabet Fenius Farsa (Phoenisusa Farsaidh), the 14th generation in male descent from Adam via Japheth and Magog, studied the tower of Babel after God confused the languages in the land of Shinar (Sennar). He was the inventor of the first alphabet, which is ancient and is called Phoenician after his name. It consists of 16 letters. The Phoenician has the same number of letters as ancient Gaelic, which also has 16. O'Hart says Gaelic is 11 consonants (BLFSNDTCMGR) plus five vowels (AOUEI). With 16 letters (2 fewer than modern Gaelic, which has 18), it may be the most ancient of all known languages, as John O'Hart writes in a book of Irish Pedigrees. Greek, for example, has 24 letters. Hebrew has 22 letters. - As Fenius Farsa was the King of Scythia, he traveled by necessity to the land of Shinar, for it was where he built a school. It was under the rule of Ninus in the land of Shinar that the tower of Babel first was begun and prematurely abandoned, following Jehovah's confusion of the languages (cf Ge 10:10; 11:1-9). It is according to O'Hart that the Scythian language is protected and preserved by the distance, this Celtic or Gaelic being the language first perfected for the son of Fenius Farsa, Niul (after whom the Nile River is named) by the learned Gael (Gaodhal), after which it (the language) was also named Gaodhilg or Gaelic. (Irish Pedigrees, p. 28, 30 John O'Hart) - Below: A Chart of Descent from Adam to Fenius Farsa (Phoeniusa Farsaidh or Phoenician Phares) and three possible descents for Thomas Jefferson http://willofjehovah.com/Family%20History/_Rowe/from%20Adam/__samothes/smith.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 11, 2012 #9384 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Maybe I should have added that this explanation of the name of the Angels (OLB: " Angelara") only showed up in the OLB,...AND.. in a book about Alfred the Great, a decade or so before the OLB was published. . That you know of. The name and description is probably already known, to be added in to the book in the first place. An angler IS a fisherman, named because of their hooks used. Angling is a method of fishing by means of an "angle" (fish hook). The hook is usually attached to a fishing line and the line is often attached to a fishing rod. Fishing rods are usually fitted with a fishing reel that functions as a mechanism for storing, retrieving and paying out the line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angling I don't see this as any big deal. Maybe you have a better description of Angles, rather than exactly that...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 11, 2012 #9385 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) There are times I think we should invite Dan Brown to his thread, lol. Read this: Left: Charlemagne (far left) and Jefferson (near left) (a proposed Phoenician connection based on the male Y-chromosome DNA evidence and depending critically upon Jefferson's descent from Charlemagne in a direct male line, the Phoenician descent of Jefferson being according to actual DNA studies of the Y-chromosome common to Jefferson males, which is typed as K2, evident in Spanish populations, the Middle East, and Northern Africa, where the descendants of Feniusa Farsa are recorded as having lived. These people are also called the Feiné or Phœné.) The enormous significance of this discovery has been that it has led to the prospect that Charlemagne the famous Frankish King is descended from the male-line of a Phoenician, insofar as Jefferson is believed to be a male-line descendant of Charlemagne. - Left: The Phoenician Alphabet Fenius Farsa (Phoenisusa Farsaidh), the 14th generation in male descent from Adam via Japheth and Magog, studied the tower of Babel after God confused the languages in the land of Shinar (Sennar). He was the inventor of the first alphabet, which is ancient and is called Phoenician after his name. It consists of 16 letters. The Phoenician has the same number of letters as ancient Gaelic, which also has 16. O'Hart says Gaelic is 11 consonants (BLFSNDTCMGR) plus five vowels (AOUEI). With 16 letters (2 fewer than modern Gaelic, which has 18), it may be the most ancient of all known languages, as John O'Hart writes in a book of Irish Pedigrees. Greek, for example, has 24 letters. Hebrew has 22 letters. - As Fenius Farsa was the King of Scythia, he traveled by necessity to the land of Shinar, for it was where he built a school. It was under the rule of Ninus in the land of Shinar that the tower of Babel first was begun and prematurely abandoned, following Jehovah's confusion of the languages (cf Ge 10:10; 11:1-9). It is according to O'Hart that the Scythian language is protected and preserved by the distance, this Celtic or Gaelic being the language first perfected for the son of Fenius Farsa, Niul (after whom the Nile River is named) by the learned Gael (Gaodhal), after which it (the language) was also named Gaodhilg or Gaelic. (Irish Pedigrees, p. 28, 30 John O'Hart) - Below: A Chart of Descent from Adam to Fenius Farsa (Phoeniusa Farsaidh or Phoenician Phares) and three possible descents for Thomas Jefferson http://willofjehovah.com/Family%20History/_Rowe/from%20Adam/__samothes/smith.htm Yes, Fenius Farsa, I bought him up back on 22nd April 2011. Part of my post said this: "Fenius Farsa caught my eye, from the Western Black Sea because that's where the Persians have an Iranian link, Farsi is the name of the Persians and Fenius is the name of Andromeda's Uncle, who she was supposed to marry. This indicates a Persian background connected with this Aethiopia. Not only that, his name can also be PHOENI(usa). He created alphabets. He married Scota (remember her) a daughter of Pharoah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scota From Scythians, Wiki: Notable Scythians include Eihidia, Istia, Lipoxais, Arpoxais, Colaxai - Koloksai, Fenius Farsa, Anacharsis, Saulius, Idanthyrsus, Gnurus, Lycus, Spargapithes, Ateus, Scopasis, Idanthyrsus, Taxakis, Skunkha, Skilurus, and Palakus. Fénius Farsaid (also Phoeniusa, Phenius, Féinius; Farsa, Farsaidh, many variant spellings) is a legendary king of Scythia who shows up in different versions of Irish folklore. According to some traditions, he was the creator of the Ogham alphabet and the Gaelic language. According to recensions M and A of the Lebor Gabála Érenn, Fénius and his son Nél journeyed to the Tower of Babel (in recension B, it is Rifath Scot son of Gomer instead). Nél, who was trained in many languages, married Scota, daughter of Pharaoh, and their son was Góedel Glas. In the Lebor Gabála Érenn (11th C), he is said to be one of the 72 chieftains who built Nimrod's Tower of Babel, but travelled to Scythia after the tower collapsed." His son, Nel actually married Scota, not Fenius himself, which I have said above. PS: Dan Brown would probably like this thread, could inspire a new book. Edited January 11, 2012 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 11, 2012 #9386 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) That you know of. The name and description is probably already known, to be added in to the book in the first place. An angler IS a fisherman, named because of their hooks used. Angling is a method of fishing by means of an "angle" (fish hook). The hook is usually attached to a fishing line and the line is often attached to a fishing rod. Fishing rods are usually fitted with a fishing reel that functions as a mechanism for storing, retrieving and paying out the line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angling I don't see this as any big deal. Maybe you have a better description of Angles, rather than exactly that...? You better show me another source (same age as the OLB or older) that explains the name of the Anglos in this way. "An angler IS a fisherman, named because of their hooks used." Yes, that's what it means now. What you say is logical could easily go the reverse way: an "angle" is called that way because it was a fish-hook used by a people called Anglos (or Angels, but not the winged kind, lol). +++ EDIT: The next was and is the generally accepted explanation of their name: Angle member of a Teutonic tribe, O.E., from L. Angli "the Angles," lit. "people of Angul" (O.N. Öngull), a region in what is now Holstein, said to be so-called for its hook-like shape (see angle (v.)). People from the tribe there founded the kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbia, and East Anglia in 5c. Britain. Their name, rather than the Saxons or Jutes, may have become the common one for the whole group of Germanic tribes because their dialect was the first committed to writing. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=angle&searchmode=none Edited January 11, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 11, 2012 #9387 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yes, Fenius Farsa, I bought him up back on 22nd April 2011. Part of my post said this: "Fenius Farsa caught my eye, from the Western Black Sea because that's where the Persians have an Iranian link, Farsi is the name of the Persians and Fenius is the name of Andromeda's Uncle, who she was supposed to marry. This indicates a Persian background connected with this Aethiopia. Not only that, his name can also be PHOENI(usa). He created alphabets. He married Scota (remember her) a daughter of Pharoah. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scota From Scythians, Wiki: Notable Scythians include Eihidia, Istia, Lipoxais, Arpoxais, Colaxai - Koloksai, Fenius Farsa, Anacharsis, Saulius, Idanthyrsus, Gnurus, Lycus, Spargapithes, Ateus, Scopasis, Idanthyrsus, Taxakis, Skunkha, Skilurus, and Palakus. Fénius Farsaid (also Phoeniusa, Phenius, Féinius; Farsa, Farsaidh, many variant spellings) is a legendary king of Scythia who shows up in different versions of Irish folklore. According to some traditions, he was the creator of the Ogham alphabet and the Gaelic language. According to recensions M and A of the Lebor Gabála Érenn, Fénius and his son Nél journeyed to the Tower of Babel (in recension B, it is Rifath Scot son of Gomer instead). Nél, who was trained in many languages, married Scota, daughter of Pharaoh, and their son was Góedel Glas. In the Lebor Gabála Érenn (11th C), he is said to be one of the 72 chieftains who built Nimrod's Tower of Babel, but travelled to Scythia after the tower collapsed." His son, Nel actually married Scota, not Fenius himself, which I have said above. PS: Dan Brown would probably like this thread, could inspire a new book. Yes you did, but that site I quoted from goes a little bit further than that. They throw in genetics to prove Charlemagne descended from a Phoenician. I was almost sure some of the people here would love that news... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 11, 2012 #9388 Share Posted January 11, 2012 You better show me another source (same age as the OLB or older) that explains the name of the Anglos in this way. "An angler IS a fisherman, named because of their hooks used." Yes, that's what it means now. What you say is logical could easily go the reverse way: an "angle" is called that way because it was a fish-hook used by a people called Anglos (or Angels, but not the winged kind, lol). +++ EDIT: The next was and is the generally accepted explanation of their name: Angle member of a Teutonic tribe, O.E., from L. Angli "the Angles," lit. "people of Angul" (O.N. Öngull), a region in what is now Holstein, said to be so-called for its hook-like shape (see angle (v.)). People from the tribe there founded the kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbia, and East Anglia in 5c. Britain. Their name, rather than the Saxons or Jutes, may have become the common one for the whole group of Germanic tribes because their dialect was the first committed to writing. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=angle&searchmode=none It means a fisherman now...? angle (n.) "space between intersecting lines," late 14c., from O.Fr. angle "angle, corner," and directly from L. angulus "an angle, corner," a dim. form from PIE base *ang-/*ank- "to bend" (cf. Gk. ankylos "bent, crooked," L. ang(u)ere "to compress in a bend, fold, strangle," O.C.S. aglu "corner," Lith. anka "loop," Skt. ankah "hook, bent," O.E. ancleo "ankle," O.H.G. ango "hook"). Angle bracket is 1875 in carpentry; 1956 in typography. angle (v.2) "to move at an angle, to move diagonally or obliquely," 1741, from angle (n.). Related: Angled; angling. angle (v.1) "to fish with a hook," mid-15c., from O.E. angel (n.) "angle, hook, fishhook," related to anga "hook," from PIE *ang-/*ank- "to bend" (see angle (n.)). Cf. O.E. angul, O.N. öngull, O.H.G. angul, Ger. Angel "fishhook." Figurative sense is recorded from 1580s. It is but a sory lyfe and an yuell to stand anglynge all day to catche a fewe fisshes. [John Palsgrave, 1530] Related: Angled; angling. Angle member of a Teutonic tribe, O.E., from L. Angli "the Angles," lit. "people of Angul" (O.N. Öngull), a region in what is now Holstein, said to be so-called for its hook-like shape (see angle (v.)). People from the tribe there founded the kingdoms of Mercia, Northumbia, and East Anglia in 5c. Britain. Their name, rather than the Saxons or Jutes, may have become the common one for the whole group of Germanic tribes because their dialect was the first committed to writing. angler "fisher with a hook and line," mid-15c. (c.1300 as a surname); agent noun from angle (v.). Same link you gave. It really could be either imo. The people were Angles, since they were anglers, fishermen with hooks, but the place was also called this because of the shape of the land, like an angle but certainly the form of a name for a fishman has been around since 1300 according to the above. Seems anchor comes from this word too, as they are an angle too - what about Lithuanian 'anka'- loop or Sanskrit 'ankha'- bent. Which brings me to this, an ankh: Loop, yes - bent, yes - got angles, yes.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted January 11, 2012 #9389 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Yes you did, but that site I quoted from goes a little bit further than that. They throw in genetics to prove Charlemagne descended from a Phoenician. I was almost sure some of the people here would love that news... Nothing really to comment on as there is no meat to the idea. While Thomas Jefferson may indeed descend from Charlemagne through a combination of his paternal and maternal lines, or even solely through his maternal line, there is nothing to validate the claim that he has direct line paternal descent from Charlemagne. Especially since his paternal line has only been traced to 6 or 7 generations before him, so roughly 17th Century, leaving an approximate 900 year gap. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 11, 2012 #9390 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Generally accepted form for their name? This disputes that on grounds they did not possess required mapmaking abilities. The most common theory is that the name Angeln itself means "hook", as in angling for fish. Many reputable etymological dictionaries are silent on its root. Julius Pokorny, a major Indo-European linguist, derives it from *ang-, "bend". The meaning would be Anwohner der Holsteiner Bucht, "residents at the Bay of Holstein". The problem with this derivation is that Grimm's Law does not appear to apply to it. The theory that "Angeln" refers to a landform resembling a hook would have required advanced mapmaking abilities by its people, and is thus misleading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angeln Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 11, 2012 #9391 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) Generally accepted form for their name? This disputes that on grounds they did not possess required mapmaking abilities. The most common theory is that the name Angeln itself means "hook", as in angling for fish. Many reputable etymological dictionaries are silent on its root. Julius Pokorny, a major Indo-European linguist, derives it from *ang-, "bend". The meaning would be Anwohner der Holsteiner Bucht, "residents at the Bay of Holstein". The problem with this derivation is that Grimm's Law does not appear to apply to it. The theory that "Angeln" refers to a landform resembling a hook would have required advanced mapmaking abilities by its people, and is thus misleading. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angeln Generally accepted ... more than a hundred years ago. That these guys got their name from their fish-hooks I only found in the OLB and the 1858 source. But the next etymology sounds even more plausible (to me): The Angles were part of the Federation of the Ingaevones, with their mythical ancestor and god of fertility Yngvi, and both terms might well share the same root (inglish -> anglish), say as the origin of the federation. Pokorny points out the possible use of this etymological root in other ancient names, such as Hardanger and Angrivarii. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angeln Combine that with this: Yngling "Yngling means descendant of Frey" Well, we can't have that in the OLB, right? Lol. Edited January 11, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 11, 2012 #9392 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Nothing really to comment on as there is no meat to the idea. While Thomas Jefferson may indeed descend from Charlemagne through a combination of his paternal and maternal lines, or even solely through his maternal line, there is nothing to validate the claim that he has direct line paternal descent from Charlemagne. Especially since his paternal line has only been traced to 6 or 7 generations before him, so roughly 17th Century, leaving an approximate 900 year gap. cormac Heh, I already understood the ones who created the website were a bit over-enthousiastic. What I expected others here to jump on is the connection between Charlemagne (a "Golar"?) with the Phoenicians... because that is what the OLB suggests (Golar/Phoenicians). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 11, 2012 #9393 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I got to do bed but the ankh had me thinking about.... angels of all things, (all these angels, angles, anchors and ankhs) could I find something that might connect the 2? Then it hit me, I have a magazine that shows the 2 combined... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 11, 2012 #9394 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) I got to do bed but the ankh had me thinking about.... angels of all things, (all these angels, angles, anchors and ankhs) could I find something that might connect the 2? Then it hit me, I have a magazine that shows the 2 combined... Well, we can also say they were called that way because of .... their 'ankles', or maybe even something with 'ink', and so on. But personally I think Pokorny is closest to the truth. . Edited January 11, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted January 11, 2012 #9395 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Heh, I already understood the ones who created the website were a bit over-enthousiastic. What I expected others here to jump on is the connection between Charlemagne (a "Golar"?) with the Phoenicians... because that is what the OLB suggests (Golar/Phoenicians). All I'm saying is that 'if' there is a connection between Charlemagne and Phoenicians, then it's not been shown through genetics. As a side note, doing my own family history/genealogy is what got me interested in genetics to begin with. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
granpa Posted January 11, 2012 #9396 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) there are a lot of ankh-like egyptian symbols. many are 2 serpents entwined. to see the heiroglyphs you may need to install a font. (see the first 2 links on the page) http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/User:Granpa/hieroglyphs http://www.marathon-studios.com/unicode/U1339B/Egyptian_Hieroglyph_V028 http://graphemica.com/%F0%93%8E%9B http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_of_Asclepius Edited January 11, 2012 by granpa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 11, 2012 #9397 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) But this is about an explanation for the name of the Angels (Anglos). What do you think is more probable: -1- that they adopted some Egyptian symbol and maybe changed their tribal name accordingly, or -2- that they were part of a larger group of tribes who venerated a Nordic fertility god called Yngvi a god after even an ancient Scaninavian royal dinasty called themselves, the Yngling, with Yngling meaning "descendant of Frey"? Even Tacitus already talked about the "Ingaevones", Germanic tribes living near the North Sea. ++++++++++++++ Frey was called by another name, Yngve; and this name Yngve was considered long after in his race as a name of honour, so that his descendants have since been called Ynglinger. -- A strophe of the Anglo-Saxon rune poem (c. 1100) records that: Ing was first among the East Danes seen by men This may refer to the origins of the worship of Ingui in the tribal areas that Tacitus mentions in his Germania as being populated by the Inguieonnic tribes. A later Danish chronicler lists Ingui was one of three brothers that the Danish tribes descended from. The strophe also states that "then he (Ingui) went back over the waves, his wagon behind him" which could connect Ingui to earlier conceptions of the wagon processions of Nerthus, and the later Scandinavian conceptions of Freyr's wagon journeys. Ingui is mentioned also in some later Anglo-Saxon literature under varying forms of his name, such as "For what doth Ingeld have to do with Christ", and the variants used in Beowulf to designate the kings as 'leader of the friends of Ing'. The compound Ingui-Frea (OE) and Yngvi-Freyr (ON) likely refer to the connection between the god and the Germanic kings' role as priests during the sacrifices in the pagan period, as Frea and Freyr are titles meaning 'Lord'. The Swedish royal dynasty was known as the Ynglings from their descent from Yngvi-Freyr. This is supported by Tacitus, who wrote about the Germans: "In their ancient songs, their only way of remembering or recording the past they celebrate an earth-born god Tuisco, and his son Mannus, as the origin of their race, as their founders. To Mannus they assign three sons, from whose names, they say, the coast tribes are called Ingaevones; those of the interior, Herminones; all the rest, Istaevones". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frey . Edited January 11, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted January 11, 2012 #9398 Share Posted January 11, 2012 (edited) As before mentioned, Frey is also called Yngvi, Yngvifreyr (more correctly Ingv-), and Ingunarfreyr. With these names may be compared Ing in a verse from the Anglo-Saxon: “Ing was first seen of men among the East-Danes, until later when he shaped his course eastward over the waters, and the wagon rolled in his wake.” Just as many given names have been formed from Frey (Frøidis, Frøistein, etc.), so the element Ing (v)- is discoverable in numerous names, such as Ingeborg (Ingibjorg), Yngvild, Inge, Inga, and the like. http://www.vaidilute.com/books/munch/munch-notes.html Read the whole poem containing the line "Ing was first seen of men among the East Danes (...)" here: http://www.innoxia.com/germaan6.htm . It's right after this line: "Het Oud-Engelse Rune-Gedicht" ("The Old English Rune Poem"). From the OLB: Wodin, the eldest, lived at Lumkamakia, near the Eemude, in Eastflyland, with his parents. He had once commanded troops. Teunis and Inka were naval warriors, and were just then staying with their father at Aldergamude. When the young warriors had assembled together, they chose Wodin to be their leader or king, and the naval force chose Teunis for their sea-king and Inka for their admiral. The navy then sailed to Denmark, where they took on board Wodin and his valiant host. -- Thus coasting along, he at length arrived at the colony of Kadik, so called because it was built with a stone quay. Here they bought all kinds of stores, but Tuntia the Burgtmaagd would not allow them to settle there. When they were ready they began to disagree. Teunis wished to sail through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea, and enter the service of the rich Egyptian king, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda’s people. Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. As the two cousins could not agree, Teunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finns and Magyars followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda’s people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall hear of Teunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka. http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/ Clever way of squeezing Ing/Inga/Inka into the OLB. But like some ancient gods changed into goddesses in the OLB, the OLB Inka went west while Ing went east (to Denmark). Well, that is what the OLB suggests: west. . Edited January 11, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted January 11, 2012 #9399 Share Posted January 11, 2012 For the record, an essential translating error by Ottema (1876), copied by Sandbach (1876) and Raubenheimer (2011). Context: The Denamarka were occupied by the Magí (1602 after Aldland had sank) and the Mother didn't want them back, because the people there would already have been bastardised and wasted. OLB, original manuscript [page 079/ line 18] THJU MODER NILDET NAVT WÉR.HA Dutch: Ottema p.111 De Moeder wilde het niet weren English: Sandbach p.111; Raubenheimer (2nd edition, 2011) p.369 The mother would not prevent it Correct translation: Dutch: De Moeder wilde het niet weer (=terug) hebben English: The Mother didn't want to have it back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted January 12, 2012 #9400 Share Posted January 12, 2012 In time they would name these lands Angle-land, and it is tempting to speculate that the word Angle was derived from, or thought of as a pun on, the name of Ing."[7] According to the Trojan genealogy of Nennius in the Historia Brittonum, Mannus becomes "Alanus" and Ing, his son, becomes Neugio. The three sons of Neugio are named Boganus, Vandalus, and Saxo—from whom came the peoples of the Bogari, the Vandals, and the Saxons and Thuringii. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingaevones Sure, maybe Ing and Ang are the same. Ing land. Angle-land. Maybe Ing though is actually the word angle, fish hook, too. That could have Freyr as a kind of God such as the ankh represents. Maybe they are angels of later, messengers of God. The ankh (angel) are the messengers of God, the receiver. As granpa pointed out, the Cadeucus itself was meant to receive the messages from God - and Hermes, who held it, was the messenger. Because I actually think the Gutians that overran Mesopotamia were actually Gothic/Nordic types, c. 2200BC, I can see how it could have easily all come into Sumeria, and then spread into Egypt and surrounds. Inkishush or Inkicuc (proto-ON 'Ingvi's-son'?) was a Gutian ruler in Sumer from ca. 2135 BC to 2129 BC. Inkishush is the first Gutian ruler mentioned in the Sumerian King List. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inkishush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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