[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Otharus]

What's the story behind the painting?

It his hanging on a prominent place, at the entrance, of this church in Leeuwarden.

[Abramelin]

It his hanging on a prominent place, at the entrance, of this church in Leeuwarden.

Lol, that's not what I asked.

But I found the answer to my question:

The wheel was used as an instrument of torture because Catharina refused to marry Emperor Maxentius.

http://www.ronaldvandenboogaard.nl/algemeen-72-rubrieken-52/36-beelden/974-beelden-94-schandpaal-in-heusden

And here's the whole story in English:

An inventor offers the Emperor a uniquely tortuous instrument of death, a set of wheels spiked with knives, which would slice Catherine's body to bits from various angles simultaneously. Yet when she is bound to this device, angels miraculously release her. The spikes fly off, kill non-Christian onlookers and the wheel is destroyed. At this point, Maxentius has her beheaded. Milk rather than blood flows from her neck. Angels carry her body to Mount Sinai, where pilgrims have trekked since the 10th century.

http://www.kappagammapi.org/_catherine.html

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Edited January 26, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

Hij deed uitvoerig verslag van zijn nauwkeurig onderzoek in een vergadering van het Fries Genootschap op 10 februari 1871.

In detail he reported the results of his accurate examination in a meeting of the Frisian Society on 10 February 1981.

That should be 1871.

[Abramelin]

Hmmm... nada, nothing, lol.

Anyway, you should not get excited everytime you see an image of some saint/goddess/woman with a wheel in her hands.

I don't think this Catherine was put on the 'wheel' because she was a Mother of the Frya kind (Yule Wheel).

And if you and I are able to dig up goddesses and saints holding a wheel (even a six-spoked wheel), then so could people from the 19th century.

And wasn't there a "Katherine" in the OLB, aka "Kat" or "Kaat"?

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Edited January 26, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

And wasn't there a "Katherine" in the OLB, aka "Kat" or "Kaat"?

There was, indeed...

[Abramelin]

There was, indeed...

Well then, imagine where they got part of their inspiration from.

From religious fables.

And, lol, you sure do know there were a couple of people able to walk on water in the OLB?

[Otharus]

Well then, imagine where they got part of their inspiration from.

From religious fables.

I imagine those religious fables were inspired by older traditions, such as described in OLB.

[Otharus]

The OLB Manuscript ~ part 4 of 11

Dutch

Volgens hem was de intussen gerezen twijfel aan de echtheid van het handschrift ongegrond.

Hij zag het als een uiterst belangrijke bron voor oud-Friese geschiedenis, met geheel nieuwe informatie.

Zijn conclusie:

"We mogen aannemen dat dit geschrift, waarvan het eerste deel rond 600 BC is opgesteld, het oudste produkt (op Homerus en Hesiodus na) van Europese literatuur bevat.

Het beschrijft een tot nu toe onbekende, eeuwenoude cultuur, met een ontwikkeling, beschaving, industrie, scheepvaart, handel, letterkunde en zuivere religieuze waarden.

In onze voorstelling ging onze geschiedenis niet verder terug, dan tot de komst van Friso (rond 300 BC), de vermeende Friese stamvader.

Hier ontdekken we echter een geschiedenis tot voorbij 2000 BC, ouder dan die van Griekenland en even oud als die van Israel."

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English

In his opinion, the doubts that had risen about the authenticity of the manuscript had no grounds.

He saw it as a most important source of old-Frisian history, with completely new information.

His conclusion:

"We can assume that this manuscript, of which the oldest part was composed ca. 600 BC, contains the oldest product (besides Homer and Hesiod) of European literature.

It describes an ancient culture, thus far unknown, with a development, civilization, industry, navigation, trade, literature and sublime religious values.

In our imagination, our history did not reach beyond the arrival of Friso (ca. 300 BC), the supposed Frisian founding father.

Here however we discover a history beyond 2000 BC, older than that of Greece and as old as that of Israel."

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Edited January 27, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

I imagine those religious fables were inspired by older traditions, such as described in OLB.

The six-spoked wheel St. Catherine is holding in that church in Leeuwarden may as well be an adoption from the Hammonia 'goddess' of Hamburg who is holding a stearing wheel.

[Otharus]

The six-spoked wheel St. Catherine is holding in that church in Leeuwarden may as well be an adoption from the Hammonia 'goddess' of Hamburg who is holding a stearing wheel.

Sure, anything is possible.

[Abramelin]

Sure, anything is possible.

The older the image of that saint, the more you will only see 8 spoked wheels:

http://www.aug.edu/augusta/iconography/lePuy/catherine.html

http://blog.inkyfool.com/2010/11/loving-st-catherines-butterfly.html

[Otharus]

The older the image of that saint, the more you will only see 8 spoked wheels

A pre-christian sacred symbol like the 6-spoked wheel will have been taboo for most artists.

Edited January 27, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

A pre-christian sacred symbol like the 6-spoked wheel will have been taboo for most artists.

Taboo? Why?

One of the first Christian symbols was the Chi-Rho sign and often depicted in a circle.

The OLB yule wheel could have been used without Christians having any suspicisons about it true meaning.

Well, you know I think it went a bit differently (Chi-Rho sign + Alpha + Omega >>> Yule Wheel + Kroder on top + A + W)

[Otharus]

Well, you know I think it went a bit differently (Chi-Rho sign + Alpha + Omega >>> Yule Wheel + Kroder on top + A + W)

Just a reminder:

In India the 6-spoked wheel is known as the wheel of time (a.k.a. wheel of Kali).

In the region where I was it was a tradition to make 6-spoked wheel cookies for christmas/ new-years (yule).

[Abramelin]

Just a reminder:

In India the 6-spoked wheel is known as the wheel of time (a.k.a. wheel of Kali).

In the region where I was it was a tradition to make 6-spoked wheel cookies for christmas/ new-years (yule).

Yeah, and the oldest ones look like this:

[Otharus]

Yeah, and the oldest ones look like this

How do you know that is one of the oldest ones?

Edited January 27, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

The OLB Manuscript ~ part 5 of 11

Nederlands

Het manuscript is een kopie uit 1256, gemaakt door Hidde Oera Linda.

Bij alle meningsverschillen over de echtheid en waarde ervan, was het onmogelijk daarover een goed oordeel te vellen, totdat het gepubliceerd werd in 1872.

[...]

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English

The manuscript is a copy from 1256, made by Hidde Oera Linda.

In all debates about its authenticity and value, it was impossible to have a solid judgement, until it was published in 1872.

[...]

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[Otharus]

The OLB Manuscript ~ part 6 of 11

Nederlands

Publicatie leidde tot hevige discussies over de echtheid van het manuscript.

Dr. Ottema gaf in 1873 een toelichting in 'Geschiedkundige Aantekeningen en Ophelderingen bij thet Oera Linda bok', en verdedigde het een jaar later in 'De Koninklijke Akademie en het Oera Linda boek'.

Dr. A.T. Reitsma te Groningen bestudeerde het en presenteerde het resultaat van zijn kritische onderzoek in drie vergaderingen van het Fries Genootschap.

Hij concludeerde dat het manuscript waarschijnlijk echt is, en van hoge historische waarde.

In de laatste vergadering gaven ook de skeptici hun visie.

Toen werd ook het handschrift zelf vertoond, zodat men zelf kon beoordelen of het een 13e eeuwse kopie kon zijn.

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English

Publication lead to heavy debates about authenticity of the manuscript.

Dr. Ottema published an explanation in 1873, titled 'Historical Notes and Clarifications to the Oera Linda book', and defended it a year later in 'The Royal Academy and the Oera Linda book'.

Dr. A.T. Reitsma from Groningen studied it and presented the result of his critical research in three meetings of the Frisian Society.

He concluded that the manuscript is probably real, and of high historic value.

In the last meeting the skeptics also gave their opinion.

The manuscript itself was also displayed at that occasion, so anyone could judge if it could be a 13th century copy.

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Edited January 27, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

How do you know that is one of the oldest ones?

It's an image from thousands of years old temples.

You have anything from before that? With six spokes?

[Abramelin]

Saying "HI" to the members of my own site, TTZ.

Sorry Saru.

[Otharus]

The OLB Manuscript ~ part 7 of 11

Dutch

Het meest uitvoerige onderzoeksverslag tot nu toe werd in 1874 gepubliceerd onder de titel 'Naar aanleiding van het Oera Linda Bok'.

De schrijver (prof. A.J. Vitringa) is duidelijk zeer geleerd en onpartijdig.

De gedachte dat het boek een vervalsing zou zijn, gepleegd na 1853, toen de paalwoningen in het meer van Zürich werden ontdekt, beantwoordt hij met:

"Wie zou de vervalser zijn?

Niet de eerste de beste was tot zoiets in staat.

Daarvoor zou noodzakelijk zijn een nauwkeurige kennis van de oudste Friese taal, waarvan een zeer beperkte woordenschat uit slechts enkele bronnen bestaat.

Bovendien zou men moeten weten hoe die taal in de loop der tijd is veranderd.

Er is namelijk een duidelijk verschil tussen het taalgebruik in de oudste en de jongste teksten van het handschrift.

De vervalser zou een zeldzame historische en geografische kennis moeten hebben gehad.

Jarenlange studie zou een onverbiddelijke voorwaarde zijn geweest en het schrijven van het vreemde letterschrift een zure arbeid.

En waarvoor zou hij dat alles hebben gedaan?

Eer?

... Vervalsers hebben een goede reden om hun naam geheim te houden.

Geld?

... Het was vooraf nauwelijks te verwachten dat publicatie enige winst zou opleveren.

Het genoegen om geleerden in de maling te nemen?

... Zou een door en door geleerd en talentvol man, zoals de maker moest zijn, zo'n offer van tijd en moeite over hebben voor zulk bedenkelijk genot?

Dat alles is onvoorstelbaar."

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English

The most detailed research report so far was published in 1874, titled 'In response to the Oera Linda Book'.

It is obvious that the author (prof. A.J. Vitringa) is very erudite and unprejudiced.

His answer to the thought that the book would be a forgery, made after 1853, when the stilt-houses in lake Zürich were discoverd, is:

"Who would be the forgerer?

Not just anyone would be capable of such a thing.

For that an accurate knowledge is needed of the oldest Frisian language, of which a very limited vocabulary from only a few sources is available.

Besides, one should have known how that language would have changed through the ages.

The fact is, there is a clear difference between the language of the oldest and the youngest texts of the manuscript.

The forgerer would have needed a rare historic and geographic knowledge.

Years of study would have been an inexorable condition and writing the odd letterscript would have been a tough job.

What would all that effort have been good for?

Honour?

... Forgerers have a good reason to keep their name a secret.

Money?

... Beforehand it was hardly expectable that any profit could be made with publication.

The pleasure of fooling some scholars?

... Would an utterly erudite and talented man, as the maker should have been, offer so much time and effort for such questionable delight?

All that is inconceivable."

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[Abramelin]

Say, Otharus, you have any info on that Basque writer who claimed to have seen a 16th century family chronicle that was about a history of times immemorial?

I tried to find the writer's email address, but failed.

[Otharus]

Say, Otharus, you have any info on that Basque writer who claimed to have seen a 16th century family chronicle that was about a history of times immemorial?

No.

Are you trying to distract me?

I am busy.

[Van Gorp]

Hmmm.. I assume you are also familiar with Evert Jan Poorterman and Willem Berend Hietbrink.

Thanks for the reference Abramelin. For me new names, but I came accross on Youtube the amusing Hietbrink.

Must say I had a good laugh and glad to get known him :-)

Maybe Hietbrink is pretty known by you Dutch (for me when you mentionned), but the tv-program 'Man bijt hond' on public channel is very known in Vlaanderen.

Another language focused program on the flemmish tv is 'Man over woord'. Here Becanus and his theory were looked at with a smile.

Just for intermezzo a flemish song-lyrics which gives a good summary about his person.

Maybe I'll translate when I can take some more time.

[Otharus]

The OLB Manuscript ~ part 8 of 11

Dutch

"We staan hier dus voor een zonderling dilemma:

Òf we laten ons beet nemen door een met grote toewijding tot stand gebracht maaksel van een geniale gek,

òf een groot deel van de oude geschiedenis komt in een geheel ander licht te staan, waardoor een revolutie op dat gebied onvermijdelijk is."

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English

"What we have here is an odd dilemma:

Either we are being fooled by a fabrication, made by a highly devoted, mad genius,

or much of our ancient history will be seen from a different viewpoint, which will make a revolution in that field inevitable."

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Edited January 27, 2012 by Otharus