[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Abramelin]

I don't think that the OdLs was qualified to advise Ottema on the translation. Ottema was, after all, highly regarded as a linguist.

< skip >

"Highly regarded as a linguist"?

Where did you get that from?

I always thought it were linguists who nailed him.

.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Ottema translated the whole book and he would have been quite aware that the OLB did not advocate the extermination of people of colour despite his own prejudices, such as there may have been.

I take it that you are being facetious.

In any event, as I explained, the thought never entered my mind that these earth mothers became pregnant through hatred.

Sorry if you feel offended but you will understand that that is not my intention. I would, nevertheless, question your assumption that your surname can be linked to “od”. To me this sounds highly unlikely. I am certain that there must be another explanation, but then, you will know better.

Ottema's darkest side

The letters between dr. Ottema and the Over de Lindens (first Cornelis and later his son Leendert Floris) show that there is one thing they kept disagreeing about and this may be a tiny but most important detail:

The translation and interpretation of the word "od" in the "forma skédnise" (creation myth).

Ottema insisted that it meant "hate" (from Latin), while Cornelis suggested it would have to do with fertility (from Saxon and old-Norse), which makes much more sense in the context anyway.

Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden (translated from letter in Dutch dated 26-1-1876):

"Od (anger, rage, hate, animosity) trad to-ra binna, means that hate entered the hearts of the three daughters of Irtha; this hate was obviously inherited by all of their descendants, and this is cause of the inborn, innate animosity specially in Finda's and Lyda's posterity against Frya's children. An animosity that will not end until the people of Finda and Lyda will be exterminated, and the people of Frya at the final victory will remain and inherit and posess the whole earth.

This animosity dominates all of history in the OLB and still goes on in our days. Frya's people pervade in all continents and establish European supremacy all over the earth. Everywhere the peoples of Finda and Lyda will have to submit or disappear."

If Ottema really believed that his very own family name was derived from a word that means "hate", it is no surprise that his life ended the way it did.

~ ~ ~

By now, I think Ottema's soul will have burnt long enough in the hell that he created for himself (as a matter of speaking).

~ ~ ~

Later I will translate parts of a letter from Cornelis Over de Linden, that demonstrate a completely different (positive) attitude.

(I didn't copy that yet in the archives.)

"I would, nevertheless, question your assumption that your surname can be linked to “od”."

I suggested his surname came from a Germanic word meaning "property".

[Otharus]

I don't think that the OdLs was qualified to advise Ottema on the translation.

Ottema was, after all, highly regarded as a linguist.

OdL was self-educated and knew several OLB words that were still known in North-Holland, but not in Friesland.

Ottema gratefully accepted several suggestions from OdL.

In this case, common sense is enough to see that OdL was right and that Ottema was wrong.

No serious translator after Ottema and Sandbach used "hatred" for "od".

[Otharus]

Let us look at the sentence again:

“Od trad to-ra binna”

Have a GOOD look at the original.

The sentence is: "WR.ALDA.S OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA"

If "od" meant "hate", it would say: "wralda's hate".

"God's hate"?!

I hope you will finally see that it really does not make sense.

[Otharus]

Sorry if you feel offended but you will understand that that is not my intention. I would, nevertheless, question your assumption that your surname can be linked to “od”. To me this sounds highly unlikely. I am certain that there must be another explanation, but then, you will know better.

I don't doubt that your intentions are good.

But in this case you are very stubborn and you underestimate me.

It's more that I am disappointed that you don't take my advice seriously, than that I feel offended.

My surname is the German spelling of "od". My ancestors would not have called themselves "hate".

[Otharus]

I would, nevertheless, question your assumption that your surname can be linked to “od”. To me this sounds highly unlikely.

It sounds unlikely to you because the wrong translation got stuck in your mind.

Edited February 6, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

Have a GOOD look at the original.

The sentence is: "WR.ALDA.S OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA"

If "od" meant "hate", it would say: "wralda's hate".

"God's hate"?!

I hope you will finally see that it really does not make sense.

"Goeie ouwe Od trad tot'r binnen".

I think a couple of guys (in heaven or hell) or laughing their asses off, lol'.

[Knul]

But many of the 'famous characters' in these "phantastic historiographies" show up in the OLB.

It's interesting the "Ocko Scharlensis" may very well have been nothing but a creation by the writer A.C. van Stavoren (1597), and then shows up right at the beginning of the OLB: "Okke, my son".

And according to a 19th century source there appears to have been a famous Frisian 'druid' called "Occo".

.

Just show me, where I can find Fositeland, Stavo and the Red CLiff in the OLB.

[Knul]

I don't understand what you mean.

It's still not clear how old the paper is.

But even if it would be 19th C. paper, the content can still be older.

The paper dates ca. 1850. The contents date ca. 1854. The original text has been written between 1830 and 1854. No doubt.

[Knul]

Have a GOOD look at the original.

The sentence is: "WR.ALDA.S OD TRÀD TO RA BINNA"

If "od" meant "hate", it would say: "wralda's hate".

"God's hate"?!

I hope you will finally see that it really does not make sense.

I agree with Otharus. This item has been discussed over and over again and the conclusion was simple: od < hod = rod.Ottema must have felt ashamed about it and looked for an onaother explanation (Lat. odium) like he did not admit, that Jessos = Jezus Christus.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Knul

[The Puzzler]

trade=trád since trád also equated to 'to drive - to hunt'= take a course/path

EnglishWikipedia has articles on:

Trade

[edit] EtymologyFrom Middle English trade (“path, course of conduct”), cognate with Old English tredan (“tread”); See Online Etymology Dictionary

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trade

wraldas od trád to ra binna

I do not see TO RA, I see TORA (one word - there's not much of a gap, it could be to ra but also it could be tora.

Faroese Pronunciation [ˈtoːra]

Noun tora f.

1.thunder

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tora

How about this literal interpretation?

WRALDAS OD TRÁD TORA BINNA

'wraldas sharp point/rod drove a path of thunder inside'

[Knul]

For those interested in the typography of the OLB I added a chapter on this subject to my website: http://rodinbook.nl/olbtypografie.html.

[The Puzzler]

After that part you have:

Od trâd to-ra binna: aend nw bârdon ek twilif svna aend twilif togathera ek joltid twên. Thêrof send alle maenneska kêmen. (Page6 OLBTresoar)

It's odd how the word for daughter is togathera - why does that mean daughter?

Here's daughter again: wiva aend toghatera (Page5 OLBTresoar)

Here's another one: 11. Willath jvw svna fon hjara toghaterum,

Is this an ancient term for daughter?

The closest word I can think of is together. - togadera-togathera-toghatera

to-gad-er-a 1 und häufiger?, afries., Adv.: nhd. zusammen; ne. together; Vw.: s.

-bra-ng-a, -drÆ-v-a, -kÐ-th-a, ku-m-a, -sÆ-a, -sit-t-a, -skrÆ-v-a, -we-s-a; Hw.: s. gad-er;

vgl. ae. tÅgÏdre; E.: s. to (1), gad-er; W.: nfries. togearre, Adv., zusammen; L.: Hh

33b

Seems like it is a word that just means 'a match' for the svna (sons). - a partner/a together?

EtymologyThe word daughter comes from the Old English dohtor, from Proto-Germanic *dochter, related to Dutch dochter and German Tochter, from Proto-Indo-European *dhugheter, shared by Sanskrit duhitar and Greek θυγάτηρ (thugatēr),[2] Mycenaean Greek tu-ka-te, written in Linear B syllabic script.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughter

If I twist my tongue and make that PIE dh into a t sound (Gk has th) you get - tu-gheter - which is the same type word as what the OLB has...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think they break down like this:

tu-ka-te (Linear B )

thu-ga-ter (Gk)

to-ga-thera(OLB)

to-ga-dera (Frisian)

to-ge-ther (English)

Edited February 7, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Just show me, where I can find Fositeland, Stavo and the Red CLiff in the OLB.

I have said many times they combined Greek, Latin and Frisian myths and legends, spiced up with Viking history. Do you seriously think one can make up a story using every character, every 'god', every location and every adventure that show up in all of thses sources? It would have become a tome you could't have held in your hands.

Yesterday I showed you a Foste on Ameland, I showed you an Occo (a bard, druid, whatever), and so on. I showed you a Tutia the Vestal Virgin (OLB Burghtmaid or VestE Virgin) and so on.

You have to be creative to create a falsification: you do not copy to the letter from the sources you use. If you do then in that case you better end your 'falsification' with a list of 'references', lol.

.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

After that part you have:

Od trâd to-ra binna: aend nw bârdon ek twilif svna aend twilif togathera ek joltid twên. Thêrof send alle maenneska kêmen. (Page6 OLBTresoar)

It's odd how the word for daughter is togathera - why does that mean daughter?

Here's daughter again: wiva aend toghatera (Page5 OLBTresoar)

Here's another one: 11. Willath jvw svna fon hjara toghaterum,

Is this an ancient term for daughter?

The closest word I can think of is together. - togadera-togathera-toghatera

to-gad-er-a 1 und häufiger?, afries., Adv.: nhd. zusammen; ne. together; Vw.: s.

-bra-ng-a, -drÆ-v-a, -kÐ-th-a, ku-m-a, -sÆ-a, -sit-t-a, -skrÆ-v-a, -we-s-a; Hw.: s. gad-er;

vgl. ae. tÅgÏdre; E.: s. to (1), gad-er; W.: nfries. togearre, Adv., zusammen; L.: Hh

33b

Seems like it is a word that just means 'a match' for the svna (sons). - a partner/a together?

EtymologyThe word daughter comes from the Old English dohtor, from Proto-Germanic *dochter, related to Dutch dochter and German Tochter, from Proto-Indo-European *dhugheter, shared by Sanskrit duhitar and Greek θυγάτηρ (thugatēr),[2] Mycenaean Greek tu-ka-te, written in Linear B syllabic script.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daughter

If I twist my tongue and make that PIE dh into a t sound (Gk has th) you get - tu-gheter - which is the same type word as what the OLB has...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think they break down like this:

tu-ka-te (Linear B )

thu-ga-ter (Gk)

to-ga-thera(OLB)

to-ga-dera (Frisian)

to-ge-ther (English)

A -t- at the beginning or in the middle or a word often changes into a -d- and visa versa; you won't have to twist your tongue.

We say "tocht", you say "draft", we say "duizend", you say "thousand", we say "deur", the Germans say "Tür", and so on.

Same with -g- (the gutteral consonant like in the Scottish Loch Ness) to - h- and visa versa (think of how Anglo-Saxons pronounce "Mexico" and how a Mexican pronounces it).

Edited February 7, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

trade=trád since trád also equated to 'to drive - to hunt'= take a course/path

EnglishWikipedia has articles on:

Trade

[edit] EtymologyFrom Middle English trade (“path, course of conduct”), cognate with Old English tredan (“tread”); See Online Etymology Dictionary

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/trade

wraldas od trád to ra binna

I do not see TO RA, I see TORA (one word - there's not much of a gap, it could be to ra but also it could be tora.

Faroese Pronunciation [ˈtoːra]

Noun tora f.

1.thunder

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tora

How about this literal interpretation?

WRALDAS OD TRÁD TORA BINNA

'wraldas sharp point/rod drove a path of thunder inside'

"Trad" is simply past tense of "treden" (to tread).

"ra" in "to ra" is a dative.

[The Puzzler]

"Trad" is simply past tense of "treden" (to tread).

"ra" in "to ra" is a dative.

1. I know, what do you think I said here: Trade

[edit] EtymologyFrom Middle English trade (“path, course of conduct”), cognate with Old English tredan (“tread”); See Online Etymology Dictionary

2. You don't know that.

3. I don't see your literal translation of that sentence anywhere.

[Alewyn]

But in this case you are very stubborn and you underestimate me.

It's more that I am disappointed that you don't take my advice seriously, than that I feel offended.

I am truly amazed that you make our difference of opinion a personal issue. This has nothing to do with being stubborn, underestimating you or not taking your views seriously. If I did not consider your views important, I would have ignored you like I do with some others here. We are debating a point nothing more. I am certain that, on reflection, you will agree that your response is somewhat over the top.

You may accuse me of labouring the point, but I still believe that my interpretation is quite credible. Just have another look at the full text:

Frisian transcription on Project Gutenberg:

Thâ hja blât kêmon spisde Wr.alda hjam mith sina âdama; til thju tha månneska an him skolde bvnden wêsa. Ring as hja rip wêron krêjon hja früchda ånd nochta anda drâma Wr.aldas. Od trâd to-ra binna: ånd nw bârdon ek twilif svna ånd twilif togathera ek joltid twên. Thêrof send alle månneska kêmen.

Ottemas Dutch translation on Project Gutenberg

Toen deze te voorschijn kwamen, spijsde Wralda haar met zijnen adem, opdat de menschen aan hem zouden gebonden wezen. Zoodra zij volwassen waren, kregen zij vermaak en genoegen in de droomen van Wralda. Haat trad tot haar binnen. En nu baarden zij elk twaalf zonen en twaalf dochteren, elke juultijd een paar. Daarvan zijn alle menschen gekomen.

My translation:

When the last (Frya)came, Wr-alda breathed his spirit upon her in order that men should be bound to him. When she was full grown she took pleasure and delight in the visions of Wralda.

Hatred entered them. They each bore twelve sons and twelve daughters; every Yule-time two. From this came all mankind.

As you can see, from all of the above, none of these translations say Wraldas od. It is taken as to be two different sentences, and quite frankly, two distinctly different concepts. That is why I separated them into two different paragraphs after having considered your view.

You will also notice that Wralda breathed his spirit upon Frya only but, hatred entered all three of them and not only Frya as the Dutch translation seems to suggest to me. As I explained before hatred came into their lives or, to put it in yet another way, hatred became part of their being. The word trad is closer to tread than to enter.

This hatred was not part of Wraldas doing. Later on in the book, Apollonia quoted from the doctrine that was found in the tower:

But although everything is in Wralda, the wickedness of men is not from him. Wickedness comes from laziness, carelessness, and stupidity;

In the original manuscript there does not appear to be a full stop after Wraldas, in which case your interpretation could be right. The previous sentence, however, would then end with visions. This does not make sense. Whose visions?

Sometimes one has to take a holistic view of the book to try to determine the correct meaning such as in this case. Judging from the whole of the OLB, these old Fryans were not as liberal or broad minded as we are today. Nowhere else in the book are they as explicit as you suggest in this part. This was a history book which, no doubt, was intended to be read and taught to children as well. I find it unlikely that they would have described the penetration of these earth mothers bodies as you claim.

So, let us then just agree to disagree.

Edit.

I find it even more unbelievable that the old Fryans would have ascribed a carnal act to their most revered Creator.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Alewyn

[Otharus]

I am certain that, on reflection, you will agree that your response is somewhat over the top.

I agree. My response was o.t.t..

Just have another look at the full text:

Frisian transcription on “Project Gutenberg”:

...

This transcription is the one by Ottema, which is not without mistakes. He had to make it in a hurry. I only work with the original and have discovered many transcription errors, that sometimes lead to translation errors. This is one of them.

Here is, once more, the fragment in the original manuscript:

As you can see, from all of the above, none of these translations say “Wralda’s od”.

That is because they are based on Ottema's erroneous transliteration.

You will also notice that Wralda breathed his spirit upon Frya only

No, that's your erroneous translation (based on a misinterpretation by Sandbach); HJA KÉMON and HJAM are plural.

[006/26]

THÁ HJA BLÁT KÉMON SPISDE WR.ALDA HJAM MITH SINA ÁDAMA.

Ottema (1876):

Toen deze te voorschijn kwamen, spijsde Wralda haar met zijnen adem

Sandbach (1876):

When the last came into existence, Wr-alda breathed his spirit upon her

Jensma (2006):

Toen zij bloot kwamen, spijsde Wralda hen met zijn adem

The word “trad” is closer to “tread” than to “enter”.

Yes, so something "tread" into them.

I didn't know that was proper English.

Why could this not be something positive like "spirit", "life-force" (from Old-Norse), or something based on the Old-Saxon "od", which seems to have meant "luck", or "ancestral inheritance". Both the Old-Norse and the Old-Saxon versions have nothing to do with "hate", that's only in Latin.

In the original manuscript there does not appear to be a full stop after “Wralda’s”, in which case your interpretation could be right.

Indeed, my interpretations are based on the original manuscript only.

The previous sentence, however, would then end with “visions”. This does not make sense. Whose visions?

No, it ends with "DRÁMA", which means "dreams".

They got "FRÜCHDA ÀND NOCHTA ANDA DRÁMA" = they got "fruits and nuts" (methaphor) or "joy and pleasure" (Dutch: vreugde en genot/ geneugten) "in the/ their dreams".

Compare:

[202/32]

NÉI THONGAR WÉRON FRIA.S SJVGUN WÁK.FÁMKES HJA ANDA DRÁME FORESKINNEN. SJVGUN NACHTA ÀFTER EKKÔRUM.

Ottema:

Na dien donder waren Fryas zeven waakmaagden haar in den droom verschenen, zeven nachten achtereen

Sandbach:

After the thunder Frya's seven watch-maidens appeared to her in a dream seven nights in succession.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Otharus

[Knul]

I have said many times they combined Greek, Latin and Frisian myths and legends, spiced up with Viking history. Do you seriously think one can make up a story using every character, every 'god', every location and every adventure that show up in all of thses sources? It would have become a tome you could't have held in your hands.

Yesterday I showed you a Foste on Ameland, I showed you an Occo (a bard, druid, whatever), and so on. I showed you a Tutia the Vestal Virgin (OLB Burghtmaid or VestE Virgin) and so on.

You have to be creative to create a falsification: you do not copy to the letter from the sources you use. If you do then in that case you better end your 'falsification' with a list of 'references', lol.

.

The matter is, that there is no trace of the old Frisian mythology in the OLB whatsoever. The name Ocko does not belong to mythology. If Ocko Scharlensis is meant, than he was not a mythological person, but an historian. Tutia was not a vestal virgin, but a burchfam at Cadiz. It would not be wise of the author to use a Roman phenomenon in pre-Roman times.

I announced that I added a new chapter on the typography of the OLB to my website (in Dutch). The typography so far has not been studied. It might be interesting for you.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Knul

[Otharus]

Nowhere else in the book are they as explicit as you suggest in this part.

This was a history book which, no doubt, was intended to be read and taught to children as well.

Have a good look at the following fragment, and note that both Ottema and Sandbach self-censored, as I will prove:

[082/19]

HWIL THAT ALREK DROK TO KÀMPANE WÉRE

WAS THÉR EN WLA FIN TO THÉRE FLÉTE JEFTHA BEDRUM FON THÉRE MODER INLET.

ÁND WILDE HJA NÉDGJA.

THA THJU MODER WÉRDIM OF THAT ER BEKWÁRD TOJÉNST THA WÁCH STRUMPELDE.

THÁ.R WITHER VPA BÉN WÉRE STEKER SIN SWÉRD TO IR BUK IN. SEGZANDE.

NILST MIN KUL NAVT SÁ SKILST MIN SWÉRD HA.

Ottema (1876):

Terwijl iedereen druk aan het vechten was,

was er een leelijke Fin in de (fleete) of het slaapvertrek van de Moeder binnen geslopen,

en wilde haar geweld aandoen.

De Moeder weerde hem af, dat hij ruggelings tegen de wand tuimelde.

Toen hij weder op de been was, stak hij haar zijn zwaard in de buik, zeggende:

wilt gij mijne roede niet, zoo zult gij mijn zwaard hebben.

Sandbach (1876):

While the fight was going on,

a rascally Finn stole into the chamber of the mother,

and would have done her violence.

She resisted him, and threw him down against the wall.

When he got up, be ran his sword through her:

If you will not have me, you shall have my sword.

Jensma (2006):

Terwijl een ieder druk aan het vechten was,

was er een vuile Fín in de 'fleete' of slaapkamer van de Moeder geslopen

en wilde haar verkrachten.

Maar de Moeder weerde 'm af zodat-ie achteruit tegen de wand strompelde.

Toen-ie weer op de been was, stak-ie zijn zwaard in haar buik, zeggende:

"Wil je mijn kul niet, dan zul je mijn zwaard hebben."

Raubenheimer (2011, p.371):

While everybody was fiercely fighting,

a vile Finn slipped into the bedroom of the mother

and wanted to violate her.

She fought him off so that he fell backwards against the wall.

When he got up, he ran his sword through her abdomen saying:

"If you will not have me, you shall have my sword".

Old-Frisian dictionary (1832) Hettema about NEDGA:

NÉDGJA = NEDGA = to rape (Dutch: verkrachten)

Frisian dictionary (1896) Dijkstra & Buitenrust Hettema about KUL:

KUL = penis

Edited February 7, 2012 by Otharus

[The Puzzler]

A -t- at the beginning or in the middle or a word often changes into a -d- and visa versa; you won't have to twist your tongue.

We say "tocht", you say "draft", we say "duizend", you say "thousand", we say "deur", the Germans say "Tür", and so on.

Same with -g- (the gutteral consonant like in the Scottish Loch Ness) to - h- and visa versa (think of how Anglo-Saxons pronounce "Mexico" and how a Mexican pronounces it).

Yeah, goodo, so any opinion on the word daughter?

[Otharus]

Sometimes one has to take a holistic view of the book to try to determine the correct meaning such as in this case.

[...]

I find it unlikely that they would have described the penetration of these earth mothers’ bodies as you claim.

[...]

I find it even more unbelievable that the old Fryans would have ascribed a carnal act to their most revered Creator.

If you want to understand the "old Fryans" from the OLB, I would advise to take a more holistic view of Frisian cultural history, like I try to do.

One of the things you will learn, is that their language was far more rich in words and expressions that refer to sexuality, than modern Dutch, English and German together.

That subject, BTW, was one of Joost Halbertsma's passions.

Edited February 7, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

This transcription is the one by Ottema, which is not without mistakes.

This was an understatement.

Mistakes can be found in almost every line.

[Otharus]

One of the things you will learn, is that their language was far more rich in words and expressions that refer to sexuality, than modern Dutch or English.

That subject, BTW, was one of Joost Halbertsma's passions.

Here's a fragment to illustrate from:

J.H. Halbertsma als lexicograaf. Studies over het Lexicon Frisicum (1872),

by Anne Dykstra, for the Fryske Akademy - Afūk, Ljouwert 2011.

(From chapter 5 - Sexual language and the Lexicon Frisicum)