[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

The Etruscans sure are an interesting and mysterious groups. I'll be looking into them a lot from now on. here is some stuff that you may have seen already but may be of use.

http://www.innominatesociety.com/Articles/Etruscan%20Origins.htm

http://www.sunnyway.com/runes/origins.html

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/language.html

http://www.fabrisia.com/etruscan.htm

http://scholarworks.umass.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1137&context=etruscan_studies

They sure are Slim, they are my favourite ancient culture.

Everything they have seems to be more original and older than Greek or at least Athenian, check some of their pottery out, really old from c. 800BC has swastikas and 'Trojan War' type scenes. I find it hard to believe they took so much from the Greeks and not the other way around.

Their women are free, that is a huge thing, the Greeks thought they should be shoved back into their corner, but they dined with the men, spoke with them and cavorted freely with them and bought up all children together, I might have said, it lends itself to a similar early British Celtic theme...remember Romans are not Etruscans, they just took it over first.

The sexual freedom of women in Britain was noted by Cassius Dio:[77]

...a very witty remark is reported to have been made by the wife of Argentocoxus, a Caledonian, to Julia Augusta. When the empress was jesting with her, after the treaty, about the free intercourse of her sex with men in Britain, she replied: "We fulfill the demands of nature in a much better way than do you Roman women; for we consort openly with the best men, whereas you let yourselves be debauched in secret by the vilest." Such was the retort of the British woman.

Cassius Dio

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts

Polybius also asserts that certain of the Celts fought naked, "The appearance of these naked warriors was a terrifying spectacle, for they were all men of splendid physique and in the prime of life...

Terrifying I'm sure....

And on that note, I'm off to bed.

Slim, you made the lucky 1000th post! lol

Edited August 26, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Sorry, wrong button.

My tooth hurts like hell all day long.

If it starts hurting less, I will respond.

.

Edited August 26, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Sorry, wrong button.

My tooth hurts like hell all day long.

If it starts hurting less, I will respond.

.

Yep, bugger, I have one needs attending but I cancelled my dentist appointment because I'm a sook and it wasn't hurting but the hurt is slowly returning, I know it's going to cause me immense pain very soon.

[The Puzzler]

What I will mention is the mirror image again, which it seems, now I have Googled some on it, has not gone unnoticed:

Slim, you might find this link particularly interesting, many old writings.

Here are several Venetic alphabets which have survived to this day. Please note since Venetic has been written both from right to left and from left to right, they also had two mirror images of their writing. Here we present the alphabets which were used for writing left to right and thus are closer and more comparable to todays alphabets. (left-to-right mirror image)

Slavic has no F, it has V.

http://www.slovio.com/origin/index.html

Here's another:

Sample of closely related Etruscan inscription:

(lines 1+3 = right-to-left mirror image, lines 2+4 left-to-right mirror image)

Also there is a manuscript, Slavic from 9th century AD written with Latin letters. Friesing Manuscript.

Could be why we have BEDRVM.

Or...

What I reckon we should be looking at is exactly where this Latin alphabet came from. It was not Roman, it was Etruscan, which is what I was showing the point with my name. It's not Roman Latin (from Greek) it's proper early Latin, from Etruscan, Venetic and Slavic.

These people dominated the amber trade route, the Veneti we find up next to the Aesii, Aesir, the first set of Gods, of Tyr and Freya, Aesir, which means Gods in Etruscan.

Historical documents and linguistic studies prove that Slavs are the direct descendants of the Veneti, the founders of Venice, Viena, and the people who have created the amber route and dominated the amber trade for over a thousand years. Historically they are also known as Enetoi and have inhabited the entire region of Balkans, north of Greece, Northern Itally, Hungary, Romania, Austria, Bavaria, Northern Switzerland, Czech and Slovak Repulics Poland and central Germany all the way to today's Hamburg. The Slavs have inhabited this region since about 1500 B.C., and inhabit about 75 percent of that region to this day. From this core area they have spread eastwards to Belarus, Ukraine and Russia. Other Venetic Slavs have migrated westwards to central Italy, where they have been known as the Etruskans, the founders of Rome.

Around the 4th century A.D. started so called migrations of nations, which have been triggered by the desertification of the areas between the Aral sea and Mongolia. This climatic catastrophy had triggered off several waves of migrations of the nomadic Turkic peoples.

At different times, in different centuries, several waves of invasions of the migrating Turkic nomads have invaded today's Germany, Estonia, Hungary, Finland, Bulgaria and Turkey. In some areas they have been assimilated by the local population or have at least partly adapted the local Venetic-Slavic languages. In other areas, such as Hungary, Turkey and Finland, their languages have prevailed.

The terror of the nomadic migrations has inspired some Venetic Slavs from the eastern regions to re-migrate to the western areas and blend with the local population. This re-migrations of the Venetic Slavs from the eastern regions, from the terror of primitive Turkic hunters, back to their original homeland was often mistakenly misinterpreted as the Slav migration.

The writing of the Venetic Slavs gave rise to today's Latin and Greek alphabets, has been copied into Futhark runes, and eventually also the Cyrillic script.

http://www.slovio.com/origin/index.html

It is an error to think the Etruscan alphabet was derived from the Greek alphabet. It (the Venetic-Slav-Etruscan) is the true Latin alphabet.

[cormac mac airt]

It was not Roman, it was Etruscan, which is what I was showing the point with my name. It's not Roman Latin (from Greek) it's proper early Latin, from Etruscan, Venetic and Slavic.

How do you come to that determination, based on the following?:

The earliest Greek alphabet was developed either directly from Phoenician itself or from a version of North Semitic almost identical to it. Greek is an Indo-European language which places much more emphasis on vowels than the Semitic languages (Phoenician, Arabic, Hebrew etc), so the Greeks adapted the alphabet. These changes were not carried out uniformly across the Greek speaking world; instead, two slightly different varieties of alphabet evolved, Western Greek, also known as Chalcidian* (used in southern Italy and everywhere west of Athens) and Eastern Greek (used in what is now Turkey, and adopted by the Athenians and eventually all the Greek-speaking world). It is Western Greek which led to our alphabet, so it is discussed here. Anyone who has studied Classical or Modern Greek will notice some differences, since both Classical and Modern Greek use the Eastern Greek alphabet.

The Etruscans adopted the Western Greek alphabet and used it...

The Latins adopted writing from both the Etruscans and the Western Greeks in about the 5th Century.

* - also called the Cumae alphabet

The Development of the Western Alphabet

So, from Phoenician (or a near contemporary) to Western Greek/Cumae Alphabet to Etruscan to Latin to modern. With no mention of Slavs, whatsoever.

cormac

[Abramelin]

I read what you said earlier. This simply means that I do not agree with you.

Apart from the guys that said the manuscript was in existence "when Haverrschindt was like 12 years old", somebody else wrote in the newspaper in 1877 that the manuscript was known to have existed some 40 years before i.e. when Haverschmidt was like 2 years old. You also said that this was an ealier version, or prototype, of the later published manuscript.

I even "understand what was going with Haverschimdt". I also understand that he denied his involvement during the early stages of the controversy i.e. long before Ottema committed suicide. It is said that Haverschmidt and Ottema were friends and Haverschmidt had the greatest respect for Ottema. Would he then wilfully and knowingly have deceived Ottema, his "great friend", for years - fully realising that Ottema's stature would be severely damaged in the end when the "hoax" would inevitably be discovered?

If Haverscmidt did fabricate the "hoax", he would have been aware of Ottema's labours right from the start and could therefore have informed him of the "hoax" before things got out of hand. Yet, they became buddies. If I were Haverschmidt I would have avoided Ottema like the plague. If Haverscmidt was clever enough to have created this absolutely brilliant hoax, he would surely have been wise enough not to leave any traces linking him to the hoax or to Ottema. Yet, they corresponded for years.

I am sorry, but the theory that Haverscmidt committed the "hoax" is nothing more than very eloquently phrased speculation, as is the hint that he himself took his own life because he felt bad about Ottema. He became depressed after his wife's death and that was the cause of his death. If he had no remorse about Ottemas predicament during the latters life, why would he feel so bad only a few years after Ottema's death?

As the guy in the open question on u-tube asked professor Jensma: Did Ottema leave a note or told somebody that he was disillutioned because he wasted years on a hoax or is this just another groundless theory? I could argue that Ottema became depressed because, after having toiled for years, everybody ridiculed him and nobody believed in the greatest endevour of his life.

I can ask you the same question as I asked professor Jensma: If the OLB is a hoax, how come it accurately describes events, places and dates that was not known in the 19th century? You, and some others, just claimed that everything in the OLB was known in the 19th century and moved on. I again refer to my very first posting here (#9).

Lastly, as you and I both said: Why don't they do a forensic analysis on the paper and ink? That would settle the matter for once and for all; or is somebody afraid of the truth?

Hi Alewyn,

Yesterday, before I started getting visions of Laurence Olivier as dentist in "The Marathon Man", I was busy re-reading the first half of this thread because I was getting the impression that not only newcomers to this thread forget that certain things were already mentioned, but also that those who are very active in this thread - including me - seem to forget what was said, and even what they themselves had said, lol.

This is what I said in post 428:

"Btw, I also read online (in Dutch) that these guys had done their best to talk Ottema out of his dreams of it being a real ancient document. But Ottema wouldn't buy it, he was hooked."

I know I read it in Dutch somewhere.

This is not about the 21st century, this is about the 19th century. Long-distance communication back then went by writing eachother letters, and information you got from reading newspapers and books.

I can easily imagine that no one even took into consideration that an Ottema was already very busy with the OLB soon after it was published, and that they only found out when they read about it in some newspaper or heard about his speaches from others. It's also possible that they did think of Ottema, but never expected him to 'fall' for the OLB... and so didn't warn him from the start. Maybe they found out a couple of years after Ottema started translating and interpreting.

Ottema had made it his life's work at that point; I can imagine they must have warned him anyway, but also that he wouldn't buy it. So, the suggestion is that Ottema was not only warned, but also too late. And I can also imagine Haverschmidt kept his mouth shut: he wasn't a strong man, he didn't know if he should tell Ottema, how he should tell Ottema, how he could convince Ottema, and so on. Maybe you and me would have warned him anyway, but from what I read Haverschmidt wasn't like that. He must have thought that if he kept his mouth shut, that the storm would eventually pass, and that Ottema would escape relatively 'unharmed' (= his career and all that). Well he was wrong, Ottema killed himself (either because he got conviced of the OLB being a hoax, or because his career and reputation made a dive because of all the criticism)

Haverschmidt was already a 'troubled' person, but I showed you a link about his speach to the audience of his church, a speach that must have puzzled these people a whole lot, and it was a few months after Ottema killed himself. I also said that the death of his wife was the final straw for Haverschmidt; she was his rock who supported him in everything; without her he was lost.

--

You mention again that the manuscript was already known long before it was finally published. And of course only based on the account of some who must have seen the papers with the strange script somewhere in Over de Linden's house. Like I said already, it would not surprise me if Over de Linden was trying out something years before, and had maybe just been practising with an old-ish looking script he himself had invented. So what people saw looked similar to the OLB (they couldn't read it anyway), but was not the OLB. Later on other people got involved ,and the 'project' truelly started.

And who were these people who claimed the OLB was already in existence 40 years before it got published? Maybe it's just me, but sending a letter to a newspaper back then, saying "I know it existed at least 40 years before it was published", and me being some old friend of the family or a relative, sounds like a perfect and convincing trick to convince people of the authenticity of the OLB.

About Over de Linden's possible motives:

post 423

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&view=findpost&p=3498889

This empire stretched out over all of Europe, and we only find the script in some tiny Friesland village, by a guy (Cornelis Over de Linden) who fiercely hated religion, fanatically studied philosophy, geography, freemasonry, was a freethinker, raged against religion and science, came in contact with a Saxon bookbinder Ernst Stadermann who knew a lot about ancient books and spoke many languages, absolutely adored his Frisian heritage, studied ancient Frisian laws, .. AND was a ship builder -and designer (in case you wonder why there is so much about sailing the seas in the OLB).

And why all that stuff about 'burgmaagden' (dominant female rulers who dictated what to believe and whatnot)? He hated his mother and her religious fanatism (she was an 'ultra-Calvinist; his father didn't care about religion at all)

From:

http://www.humanitarisme.nl/personen/index.php?m=family&id=I40726

And something about the aging with tea:

"Beckering Vinckers meende dat het een vervalsing in mislukt Oud-Fries was. Hij had niet door dat het juist de bedoeling van de auteur was dat het zogenaamde Oud-Fries ontmaskerd werd. Dit is één van de conclusies die Dr. Jensma stelt na zijn uitvoerige onderzoek. Hieruit bleek duidelijk dat het allemaal doordacht en weloverwogen op deze wijze geconstrueerd was. Het zogenaamde Oud-Fries moest de illusie van authenticiteit wekken, zodat de lezers van het handschrift eerst zouden denken het is echt!, om er daarna doorheen te prikken en zich te realiseren dat het in het verhaal gaat om theologie en de kwestie van de richtingen in de kerk.

Het papier waarop geschreven is, dateert overduidelijk van na 1850. De bruine kleur kwam tot stand door het papier in de thee te hangen."

http://members.multimania.nl/vvhdenhelder/newpage1.html

I wonder how that last sentence came into the article: was it from Jensma's book, was it from some known chemical analysis, or is it just a rumour repeated enough times to make it a 'truth'??

Edited August 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Did you catch my post about the yard arm?

Here's something else on that...

The word derives from the French raban, Dutch ra-band, from ra 'yard-beam' + band. Originally it was the rope that ties the sail to the yard, but soon came to mean a whip made of leather or tarred hemp, used to punish sailors (compare rope's end.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebenque

The other link said like Scottish naval - ra - yard arm.

I then said how cows, dairy cows particularly could be house cows, that is, yard cows, my friend has one, they live on a property but have one cow in the yard, she called it a house cow once, so ra kys, could in reality be yard? cows - maybe dairy cows, like the milk cows that have been shown to be bought into Northern Europe, the lactose thing.

But it doesn't seem to make sense in the second ra mentioned....yard selves - house selves - yard arm selves - ??? house selves is sorta like ourselves...??

Is that word even themselves??

Seriously though, ra is coming up as it could mean yard, which does really fit very well with cows, especially the dairy cows of Friesland.

Yes, I red that post of yours, Puzz.

You know what 'ra' means in modern Dutch ? Crowsnest, or the mast it's on (lol, have to check that one, but our 'ra' has to do with old wooden ships with masts and sails).

Well, I know you will keep searching for 'ra' meaning something else than a personal pronoun, but I don't find it very convincing to be honest. Why would 'ra' show up two times in one sentence, the first one meaning 'yard' or something, and the other a personal pronoun? That's why I said many times that we need a linguist here.

Btw, although I said it before, Jensma appeares not to be a liguist; as far as I know he is a historian.

===

EDIT:

A 'ra' is somekind of wooden cross beam attached to a mast, and from which a sail hangs down.

.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Here's another ra word:

"small deer," O.E. ra, from raha, from P.Gmc. *raikhon (cf. O.N. ra, Du. ree, O.H.G. reho, Ger. Reh "doe"), perhaps from PIE base *rei- "streaked, spotted." Roebuck is c.1400, from roe + buck.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=r&p=27

Old English ra means small deer. Old Norse is also ra.

I don't suppose that fits - promised small deer cows...? doe-eyed cows..hmm?? lol

small deer selves....doe selves, spotted...

doe a deer, a female deer (doe)

ra(k)y a drop of golden sun (spotted house cows with gold on them)

me, a name I call myself... (themselves)

Ah, I get it now.

Is there a musical code within it I wonder? I'm joking...I think

Haha, that looks like the least possible alternative translation.

And a musical code within it? Were you thinking what I once said in a thread about Plato's secret code in his works? Like if we split up the OLB in certain intervals, would we be able to read a hidden text or message??

After I read that article about Plato that was posted here months ago, I of course thought of the OLB. I even tried it, but gave up soon after; that is something you will need to do with the help of special software.

[The Puzzler]

The Wolf-Mother.

Cormac, you are just not seeing their role in it all...

As the people who raised Romulus and Remus, the woman's name being Larentia, meaning Lupae (Lupa) she-wolves, they lived in the area of Latium, probably on the other side of the Tiber River.

------------

Look at the whole story of Latium to find out how real Latin developed.

Romulus and Remus were descendants of the Trojans by way of Aeneus lobbing in Latium and marrying the local princess, Livinia. Not Lafinia or Laphinia or even Lawinia - her name was Lavinia - the V is true

This began their line at Alba Longa.

The mother of R&R was Silvia Rhea, a Vestal Virgin. A priestess of Vesta or Fasta/Festa in Northern Europe and Hestia in Greece. A priestess of the lamp.

The OLB says this Goddess is Freyan. (I'll ignore that for now though)

She was made a vestal virgin so she didn't conceive and take over her Uncle's throne, when she did the children were abandoned.

We all know it was Mars who took her.

The story mirrors the story of Perseus birth by Zeus. That of being situated to not conceive but the main God comes and gets them pregnant anyway.

So, in Latium, we do find the oldest Latin alphabet, it looks like Greek and Etruscan, it's on the Black Stone, the Lapis Niger.

Into reality:

In the 7th century BC the Romans under king Tullus Hostilius went to war with Alba Longa which was at that time ruled by Gaius Cluilius.

The pretext for war was that some Roman and Alban peasants had plundered each other's lands, although according to Livy the real reason was Tullus Hostilius' warlike disposition. Ambassadors were dispatched by each side to demand restitution, and war was thereafter proclaimed, first by the Romans and soon after by the Albans also.[3]

Livy describes the war as being akin to a civil war, because the Romans were said to be descended from the Albans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba_Longa

The new Romans banished the last Etruscan king of Rome c 500BC. The Etruscans were Kings of Rome because they lived in ROME. The Balkan people known as Slavs were right on their door.

Don't you think it's a co-incidence we have 2 stories of Trojan refugees that end up in Rome - The Etruscans and Aeneus....don't you think Aeneus could actually be Etruscan? Who was in Carthage because the Etruscans and Phoenicians were trading partners and allies?

When the Greeks landed in Veii the Etruscans didn't ask them in for a cup of tea and say oh, how we love you and your language, we will copy it, the Etruscans were in cahoots with the Phoenicians learning alphabets before the Greeks imposed in Italy.

The Etruscans were with the Phoenicians on Euboea, mining gold and metals, nothing on the mainland worth worrying about, the Phoenicians were on Thera first after the eruption, looking for metals. The Etruscans and the Phoenicians teamed up to keep Greece out of the Western Mediterranean. The Greeks teamed up with the new Romans emerging from the small flatland of Latium, where Aeneus the Trojan had started the line of Rome...flatlanders - Pelasgians.

The language of Lemnos and the writing there is ETRUSCAN-PHOENICIAN, don't you see it cormac? They will never decipher Etruscan properly because not only did it not come from Greek, it would compromise everything we already know that has been set in place. The Romans, who were themselves Trojans and Latins, surrounded by Etruscans and Balkans (Slavs) more than likely, who raised Romulus, who went back and actually reinstated his grandfather, Silvia's father, as King of Latium. Romulus therefore would have spoken a wolf language, that of Slavic because he was bought up by them, this is a mythic explanation for he spoke Slavic. The Romans gave themselves a fresh slate, just like the Athenians did. Both were allies against Etruscans and Phoenicians.

The V letter is everywhere in Italy, it's a Latin letter, it's from the true Latin people, an offshoot of the Villanovan culture, who came down the river Vistula trading amber bringing their Aesir Gods including Tyr, that is, Mars/Aries - you know, the grove of Aries at Colchis, land of amber, where people were shamans and magicians, like Medea. It's not derived from ph. In my opinion anyway.

The language of Greece only came to be when they bought in Asia Minor influence as seen in their PH sound, that is why everything had to be taken back 300 odd years...with the myths.

Calchas, the haruspice, an Etruscan through and through, telling Agamemnon to sacrifice Iphegenia...on Euboea...! Of course Etruscans were on Euboea....in the Trojan War, that is if the Trojan war was actually c. 900BC, they were there mining it up with the Phoenicians...

or do you think an Etruscan named haruspice was telling Agamemnon what to do in Euboea c. 1200BC?

I am editing to add: The Mycenaeans are also known to have been in Latium.

The myths are a cover story that Plato has tried to expose, again in my (humble) opinion.

You can try and prove this wrong if you like but I really doubt you can.

Edited August 27, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Yes, I red that post of yours, Puzz.

You know what 'ra' means in modern Dutch ? Crowsnest, or the mast it's on (lol, have to check that one, but our 'ra' has to do with old wooden ships with masts and sails).

Well, I know you will keep searching for 'ra' meaning something else than a personal pronoun, but I don't find it very convincing to be honest. Why would 'ra' show up two times in one sentence, the first one meaning 'yard' or something, and the other a personal pronoun? That's why I said many times that we need a linguist here.

Btw, although I said it before, Jensma appeares not to be a liguist; as far as I know he is a historian.

===

EDIT:

A 'ra' is somekind of wooden cross beam attached to a mast, and from which a sail hangs down.

.

Yeah, the yard arm thingy, I saw it written, it's very similar, yard mast? so in Dutch ra might even really mean something more like yard too...

I really don't know anymore on the red cows thing.

[Abramelin]

Yeah, the yard arm thingy, I saw it written, it's very similar, yard mast? so in Dutch ra might even really mean something more like yard too...

I really don't know anymore on the red cows thing.

Yes, some term to do with boats and stuff. But it can't have any connection with the 'ra' in the sentence.

We also say "Ra, ra", a kid's expression when it wants you to have a guess at something.

And then we also have 'raar', which means weird or strange. Again nothing ('they promised weird cows with golden horns', lol).

Oh, and you wondered whether I posted that link to a Dutch site with photo copies of the OLB, and yes, I did. It's the post before I posted the image of part of a page, the page which shows the sentence in the original script.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

This is getting a bit off topic, but I think you will like this, Puzz and Jim:

http://ixoloxi.com/voynich/etruscan.txt

[The Puzzler]

This is getting a bit off topic, but I think you will like this, Puzz and Jim:

http://ixoloxi.com/voynich/etruscan.txt

haha why not, it's as good as any reasoning I've heard.

Hey what about HeRA - she is described as doe-eyed cow. E-ra.

A.J. van Windekens,[5] offers "young cow, heifer", which is consonant with Hera's common epithet βοώπις (boôpis, cow-eyed). E-ra appears in Mycenaean Linear B tablets.

"The three cities I love best," the ox-eyed Queen of Heaven declares (Iliad, book iv) "are Argos, Sparta and Mycenae of the broad streets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hera

then this:

In Euboea the festival of the Great Daedala, sacred to Hera, was celebrated on a sixty-year cycle.

Things like this should jolt one to think about what else Athenians transferred into their own heritage.

In Greek mythology, Daedalus (Latin, also Hellenized Latin Daedalos, Greek Daidalos (Δαίδαλος) meaning "cunning worker", and Etruscan Taitale)

---Athenians transferred Cretan Daedalus to make him Athenian-born, the grandson[10] of the ancient king Erechtheus, who fled to Crete, having killed his nephew.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daedalus

The V again, Steven/Stephen/Stefan is a good name to use to illustrate who uses what...

Esteban (Spanish, Filipino, Basque)

Estêvão (Portuguese)

Esteve (Catalan)

Étienne ("Estienne" is an obsolete spelling), Stéphane (French)

Êtiên (Vietnamese)

İstefanos (Turkish)

İstfan, Stepan (Azeri)

István (Hungarian)

Kepano, Kiwini (Hawaiian)

史提芬, 史蒂芬, 史地芬, 斯德望, 斯蒂芬 (Chinese)

스티븐 (Seutibeun, Korean)

Shtjefën or Stefan (Albanian)

Sitiveni (Tongan, Fijian)

Steafán, Stiofán (Irish)

Stefán (Icelandic)

Stefano (Esperanto)

Stefano (Italian)

Ştefan (Romanian)

Štefan (Slovak)

Štefan (Slovene)

Stefan, Stefaan, Stëven, Stephan (Afrikaans)

Stefan, Stephan, Steffen (German)

Stefan, Szczepan (Polish)

Stefan, Staffan, Stephan, Steffo (Swedish)

Steffan (Welsh)

Ste'n (Buffalo, NY)

Steffen (Norwegian)

Steffen, Stephen, Stefan, Stephan (Danish)

Štěpán (Czech)

Stefanus, Stephanus (Latin)

Stepans, Stepons (Latvian)

Steponas, Stepas (Lithuanian)

Steven (Breton)

Steven, Stefaan, Stefanus, Stefan, Stephan (Dutch)

Stiefnu (Maltese)

スティーブン、スティーブ (Stiibun, Stiibu, Japanese)

Stìobhan, Stìophan, Stèaphan (Scottish Gaelic)

Stjepan, Stipe, Stipo (Croatian)

Tapani, Teppana (Finnish)

Tehvan (Estonian)

Tipene (Māori)

Istfan, إصتفان, ستيف, ستيفن (Arabic)

סטיבן (Hebrew)

Στέφανος (Stephanos, Stefanos, Greek)

Степан, Стефан (Stepan, Stefan, Ukrainian; Стефан [stefan] is a more western Ukrainian usage[citation needed])

(Stefan), diminutive: Стефчо (Stefcho), (Bulgarian)

Стефан/Stefan, Стеван/Stevan, Степан/Stepan, Шћепан/Šćepan, Стијепо/Stijepo, Стево/Stevo (Serbian)

Стефан/Stefan, Стеван/Stevan, Шћепан/Šćepan (Montenegrin)

Стефан/Stefan, Стеван/Stevan, Стево/Stevo, Стефче/Stefche (Macedonian)

Стефан, Стивен, Степан (Stefan,Stiven,Stepan, Russian)

Ստեփանոս, Ստեփան (Stepanos, Stepan, Armenian)

სტეფანე (Stepane, Georgian)

ஸ்டீபன் (Stepan, Tamil)

Eapen (Malayalam )

Steephan (South Indian)

Steeve or Styve (Québec)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen

Estonian has Tehvan.

The modern name of Estonia is thought to originate from the Roman historian Tacitus, who in his book Germania (ca. 98 AD) described a people called the Aestii. Similarly, ancient Scandinavian sagas refer to a land called Eistland, close to the Danish, German, Dutch, Swedish and Norwegian term Estland for the country. Early Latin and other ancient versions of the name are Estia and Hestia. Esthonia was a common alternate English spelling prior to independence

Hestia...ancient name for Estonia.

So, Estonians came down the Vistula River and settled in the north of heinde krekaland. That is both the Veneti and the Aestii people who inhabited that area of the Heille peninsula in the Baltic collecting amber. Hungarian has v as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia

Anyways....

Edited August 27, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Cormac - if Latin comes from people in Latium who spoke it, how did it come in from Euboea to Cumae?

See, there is really 2 Latins.

How about the flatlanders from Latium, the Pelasgians, were in Greece, Attica actually, and settled Euboea, then came back into Italy....

Julius Pokorny[9] derives Pelasgoi from *pelag-skoi (Flachlandbewohner, or "flatland-inhabitants");

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

flatlanders

krekalanders

fen land (Finland)

no connections, just throwing out descriptions of the same kind.

Many areas and people are named after the land they live so I think flatlanders would be the obvious choice for Pelasgians. Latium also means flatland.

[Abramelin]

Like I said, I re-read the first 30 pages of this thread, and found something that I didn't consider much at first.

This is what Alewyn posted in hïs post 237 on page 16:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&view=findpost&p=3491996

The Altai Mountains in central Asia where Russia, China, Mongolia and Kazakhstan come together have been identified by scientists as the point of origin of a rapid and massive migration of peoples into distant parts of Europe and Asia at the start of the second millennium BC. Again we find the suggestion of the 2193 BC event and once more it corresponds with the Oera Linda Book. It is noteworthy that the region continues to experience periodic seismic activity.

In light of the aforementioned it may be reasonable to suspect that the Magyarar were the carriers of this R1a haplogroup and that they originated from central Asia. Altai means Gold Mountain and the Oera Linda Book mentions that the Magyarar possessed substantial quantities of the metal. Gold is still mined in the Altai region.

Because I have posted about the Tarim Basin as a possible location of the OLB "Aldland/Atland", Based on WHAT WAS KNOWN/THOUGHT IN THE 19TH CENTURY ABOUT THE LOCATION OF BIBLE PARADISE, I checked that name, "Altai":

"The name, in Turkic Alytau or Altai, means Al (gold), tau (mount); in Mongolian Алтайн нуруу Altain nuruu, the "Mountains of Gold". The proposed Altaic language family takes its name from the mountain range.

The Altai Mountains have been identified as being the point of origin of a cultural enigma termed the Seima-Turbino Phenomenon[2] which arose during the Bronze Age around the start of the 2nd millennium BC and led to a rapid and massive migration of peoples from the region into distant parts of Europe and Asia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains"'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains"

--

Another Mongolian name for the Altai area is "Altain-ula"

--

"Seima-Turbino refers to burial sites dating around 1500 BC found across northern Eurasia, from Finland to Mongolia. The buried were nomadic warriors and metal-workers, travelling on horseback or two-wheeled chariots. These nomads originated from the Altai Mountains. Although they were the precursor to the much later Mongol invasions these groups were not yet strong enough to attack the important social sites of the Bronze Age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_Phenomenon"'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_Phenomenon"

---

"The name, in Turkic Alytau or Altai, means Al (gold), tau (mount); in Mongolian Алтайн нуруу Altain nuruu, the "Mountains of Gold". The proposed Altaic language family takes its name from the mountain range.

The Altai Mountains have been identified as being the point of origin of a cultural enigma termed the Seima-Turbino Phenomenon[2] which arose during the Bronze Age around the start of the 2nd millennium BC and led to a rapid and massive migration of peoples from the region into distant parts of Europe and Asia."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains

Seima-Turbino refers to burial sites dating around 1500 BC found across northern Eurasia, from Finland to Mongolia. The buried were nomadic warriors and metal-workers, travelling on horseback or two-wheeled chariots. These nomads originated from the Altai Mountains. Although they were the precursor to the much later Mongol invasions these groups were not yet strong enough to attack the important social sites of the Bronze Age.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_Phenomenon

---

"The Altai Mountains in what is now southern Russia and central Mongolia have been identified as the point of origin of a cultural enigma termed the Seima-Turbino Phenomenon.[15]

It is conjectured that changes in climate in this region around 2000 BC and the ensuing ecological, economic and political changes triggered a rapid and massive migration westward into northeast Europe, eastward into China and southward into Vietnam and Thailand across a frontier of some 4,000 miles.[15] This migration took place in just five to six generations and led to peoples from Finland in the west to Thailand in the east employing the same metal working technology and, in some areas, horse breeding and riding.[15]

It is further conjectured that the same migrations spread the Uralic group of languages across Europe and Asia: some 39 languages of this group are still extant, including Hungarian, Finnish, Estonian and Lappish.[15] However, recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-european migrations eastwards, as this technology was well-known for quite a while in western regions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age

Then I read an old post of SlimJim, post 404:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=184645&view=findpost&p=3497510

Jim suggested the "ald" in Aldland could have something to do with the Latin for 'high': alt/a.

Well, the etymologists/linguists here keep snoring, so yeah, then I say it could actually be true that the Latin "alta" orginiated in some Altaic language.

I have already done my best to prove that the "Aldland/Atland" of the OLB was not located in the west, or better, the Atlantic (="Atlantis"), but was located in the east, in Asia, and near/in the Tarim Basin, near the Himalaya, the home of the 'pure Finda' according to the OLB.

This area, "Aldland" was 'translated' (hmm...) as "Old Land" in the OLB.

I think the creators of the OLB connected similar sounding names, like Alt, Ald, Altai

So here I am, saying they concocted a name for the "Old Land", our Biblical Paradise, from and ancient Greek myth, "Atlantis", and the Mongolian (=Finda's people) "Altai Land", the land with the mountains of gold.

And if we just accept the OLB is true and not a fabrication, then it is possible the Frya people translated the name of the homeland of the Finda people with "Ald Land", Old Land, because that is what they thought it meant.

Of course I have my own thoughts about this: in the 19th century it was believed that the Biblical Flood took place in 2193 BC (according to Frisian Archives), and east of Mesopotamia.

They could read maps, no doubt, and must have seen that "Altai" looks very similar to "Ald" (=old) and the Latin "alta" (=high), and that the Altai were very near to what they considered to be the Paradise (Tarim Basin/Pamir Plateau).

Well, it must have been the 'paradise' for the Finda people only, not for the Frya and Linda people.

But truth be told, the OLB never said all humans originated in Aldland. It was the homeland of Finda's people only. All later ideas about Aldland being Atlantis, having a high civilization, and being located in the Atlantic is nothing but bull by people who never took the trouble to read the original script of the OLB,and then conveniently mixed it with what Cayce and Blavatsky cooked up (aka as "rectum talk" or channeling).

I have to be fast before my painkiller runs out, so excuse me if all this sounds like ranting, LOL.

.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Yeah, it sounds plausible, maybe the name is not really made up by them but what Aldland/Atland should be. I don't think anywhere in the OLB does it actually tell us Aldland means OLD LAND. If the mariners called it Atland, it would mean At equates to Ald - I do not know the word At for old - so how would Ald, even it if it means OLD land, Auld being old, how does ATland mean old land....?

OK, I'll think more on that. Below Latin altus means grown, high - so altitude and old actually stem from same PIE base - al (to grow, nourish)

Altitude- late 14c., from L. altitudo (gen. altitudinis), from altus "high" (see old).

------

old-

O.E. ald (Anglian), eald (W.Saxon), from W.Gmc. *althas "grown up, adult" (cf. O.Fris. ald, Goth. alþeis, Du. oud, Ger. alt), originally a pp. stem of a verb meaning "grow, nourish" (cf. Goth. alan "to grow up," O.N. ala "to nourish"), from PIE base *al- "to grow, nourish" (cf. Gk. aldaino "make grow, strengthen," althein, althainein "to get well;" L. alere "to feed, nourish, bring up, increase," altus "high," lit. “grown tall,” almus "nurturing, nourishing," alumnus "fosterling, step-child;" O.Ir. alim "I nourish"). The usual PIE root is *sen- (cf. senior). A few IE languages distinguish words for "old" (vs. young) from words for "old" (vs. new), and some have separate words for aged persons as opposed to old things. L. senex was used of aged living things, mostly persons, while vetus (lit. "having many years") was used of inanimate things. Gk. geraios was used mostly of humans; Gk. palaios was used mostly of things, of persons only in a derogatory sense. Gk. also had arkhaios, lit. "belonging to the beginning," which parallels Fr. ancien, used mostly with ref. to things "of former times." O.E. also had fyrn "ancient," related to O.E. feor "far, distant" (see far, and cf. Goth. fairneis, O.N. forn "old, of old, of former times," O.H.G. firni "old, experienced"). The original O.E. vowel is preserved in Scots auld. The original comp. and superl. retained in particular uses elder, eldest, also alderman). First record of old-timer is from 1860. Expression old as the hills first recorded 1819. The good old days dates from 1828. Of old "of old times" is from late 14c. Old Glory for "the American flag" is first attested 1862. Old maid "woman who remains single well beyond the usual marrying age" is from 1520s; the card game is attested by that name from 1844. Old man "husband, father, boss" is from 1854, earlier (1830) military slang for "commanding officer;" old lady "wife, mother" is attested from c.1775. Old English is attested from 1849 as a type of black-letter font.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=o&p=5

at-

O.E. æt, common P.Gmc. (cf. O.N., Goth. at, O.Fris. et, O.H.G. az), from PIE *ad- "to, near, at" (cf. L. ad "to, toward" Skt. adhi "near;" see ad-). Lost in German and Dutch, which use their equivalent of to; in Scandinavian, however, to has been lost and at fills its place. At-home (n.) "reception of visitors" is from 1745; baseball at-bat "player's turn at the plate" is from 1941. The colloquial use of at after where ("where it's at") is attested from 1859. In choosing between at church, in church, etc. at is properly distinguished from in or on by involving some practical connection; a worshipper is at church; a tourist is in the church. At last is recorded from late 13c.; adv. phrase at least was in use by 1775. At in M.E. was used freely with prepositions (e.g. at after, which is in Shakespeare), but this has faded with the exception of at about, which was used in modern times by Trollope, Virginia Woolfe, D.H. Lawrence, and Evelyn Waugh, but nonetheless is regarded as a sign of incompetent writing by my copy editor bosses.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=at&searchmode=none

[The Puzzler]

Or maybe they, the mariners, just say Atland cause they speak bad -

Those who descend from the Greeks speak a bad language, and have not much to boast of in their manners. Many have brown eyes and hair. They are envious and impudent, and cowardly from superstition. When they speak, they put the words first that ought to come last. For old they say at; for salt, sât; and for man, ma—too many to mention.

[The Puzzler]

There is quite a bit about who speaks how and what it should really be for good Frisian:

Friso had taken here another wife, a daughter of Wilfrêthe, who in his lifetime had been chief count of Staveren. By her he had two sons and two daughters. By his wish Kornelia, his youngest daughter, was married to my brother. Kornelia is not good Frisian; her name ought to be written Korn-helia. Weemoed, his eldest daughter, he married to Kauch. Kauch, who went to school to him, is the son of Wichhirte, the king of the Geertmen. But Kauch is likewise not good Frisian, and ought to be Kaap (Koop). So they have learned more bad language than good manners.

Kaap, koop in Dutch. Old Frisian - kap - to trade, purchase, bargain - cheap. (koop) In German it would be Kauf, from OHG, that sounds like Kauch.

It seems German came into Friso's family but the names should be Frisian based so they learned bad language..

O.E. ceap (n.) "traffic, bargain, a purchase," from ceapian (v.) "trade," probably an early Germanic borrowing from L. caupo (gen. cauponis) "petty tradesman, huckster" (cf. O.Fris. kap "trade, purchase," Du. koop "trade, market, bargain," O.H.G. kauf "trader," Ger. Kauf, Dan. kjøb "purchase, bargain," O.N. kaup "bargain, pay." Cf. also O.C.S. kupiti "to buy," a Germanic loan-word). Adjective sense of "low in price, that may be bought at small cost" first attested c.1500, from god chep "favorable bargain" (12c.), translation of Fr. a bon marché; a sense represented in O.E. by undeor, lit. "un-dear" (opposed to deop ceap "high price," lit. "deep cheap"). Sense of "lightly esteemed, common" is from 1590s (cf. similar evolution of L. vilis). The word also was used in O.E. for "market" (cf. ceapdæg "market day"), a sense surviving in place names Cheapside, East Cheap, etc. Related: Cheaply. Expression on the cheap is first attested 1888. German billig "cheap" is from M.L.G. billik, originally "fair, just," with a sense evolution via billiger preis "fair price," etc.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=koop&searchmode=none

[Abramelin]

Or maybe they, the mariners, just say Atland cause they speak bad -

Those who descend from the Greeks speak a bad language, and have not much to boast of in their manners. Many have brown eyes and hair. They are envious and impudent, and cowardly from superstition. When they speak, they put the words first that ought to come last. For old they say at; for salt, sât; and for man, matoo many to mention.

LOL, you remember what I said about the Dutch people not liking the -alt- or -olt- part in a word, and changing it into -out- or -aut- (or -oud- and -aud-)?? And that the people in The Hague even say -aht- ? (The Searcher maybe saw the shows of "Van Kooten & De Bie", so he knows what I am talking about, lol. Maybe one of their shows is still on YouTube, then you will be able the hear it too. You simply can't miss that sound

).

(English) cold >> (Dutch) koud >> (The Hague) kaht.

Btw, those bad-mouthed sailors who couldn't speak well were no one else than the Hollanders, the people living in what was formerly the western part of Friesland. The Frisians lost that territory to the Counts and Dukes of Holland.

And it's these Hollanders who spread the name "Holland" far and wide, and that's why The Netherlands is often called "Holland", while it is actually nothing but the western part of The Netherlands.

===

About Atland/Aldland:

Aldland was also spelled, "Ald.land"

In êra tyda hêmadon Findas folk mêst algadur invr hjara moders bårta-lând,

mit nôma ald-lând that nw vnder-ne sê lêith;

And 'ald' is used in the OLB for the word 'old', so it's natural to assume that they must have translated Aldland into 'old land'.

It's like some Dutch knuckle brain thinks that "England" means "Creepy Land" in Dutch, because nowadays 'eng' is the Dutch word for creepy. Or into "Narrow Land" because 'eng' also means 'narrow' in Dutch.

Hahahaa, and I remember something that actually happened: an American once wanted to know directions to the "Peace Palace" in The Hague. So he asked a guy who was busy digging a hole in the street for cables or something. This guy looked a bit puzzled, and finally pointed to a public toilet, lol. Why? Because 'Peace' sounds the same as the Dutch 'pies', which means p*** in English; he thought the American really needed a royal leek (Zeikpaleis) !!

Edited August 28, 2010 by Abramelin

[Qoais]

Not connecting all the dots like you two, when I read the Book, I subconsciously translated aldland as homeland, not old land. I also got the impression that the three "tribes" all lived in different areas, but were in contact with each other. Linda, Finda and Freya.

[Abramelin]

Not connecting all the dots like you two, when I read the Book, I subconsciously translated aldland as homeland, not old land. I also got the impression that the three "tribes" all lived in different areas, but were in contact with each other. Linda, Finda and Freya.

Yes, Aldland was the homeland of the Finda people, before they had to flee it.

But it's also spelled (see former post) as ald.land, and that would make it 'old land'; an adjective, -ald- , in front of a noun, - land-.

[Abramelin]

I was in the Old Europe thread Slim has and linked the Etruscan writing, which I have been looking at alot in the last few years.

I mentioned earlier to Abe that I thought it appeared to be back to front, mirror imaged as such, hence the need for so many mirrors in the Etruscan culture...

No literature, just thousands of religious writing or names to be found.

I recall Abe thought it was quite funny of me to suggest that - but in the OLB book it does say many other changed the writing, not only that, they hid it, coded it so no one else could read it.

What if Etruscan was coded in mirror image...?

(........)

I said it was funny, but I also said it was known that they mostly wrote from right to left (but also in boustrophedon, like the farmer and his ox plow a field: right to left -turn - left to right - turn - right to left... and so on).

So it may appear they wrote using mirrored letters as a kind of secret code, but maybe it was just for convenience that they mirrored those letters.

[The Puzzler]

Not connecting all the dots like you two, when I read the Book, I subconsciously translated aldland as homeland, not old land. I also got the impression that the three "tribes" all lived in different areas, but were in contact with each other. Linda, Finda and Freya.

I do both those things agree. Except it's not Linda, it Lyda,(black with hair like a lambs) Finda (yellow with hair like a horses mane) and Freya.(fair and blonde)

I think Aldland sounds like the homeland because Old Land is the homeland usually, and I think it is being referred to as such, and yep, I reckon they lived in different areas but were in contact.

[cormac mac airt]

Cormac - if Latin comes from people in Latium who spoke it, how did it come in from Euboea to Cumae?

I think you’re confusing the spoken language with the written language. Per my previous post:

The Latins adopted writing from both the Etruscans and the Western Greeks in about the 5th Century.

They may have had a language, but the alphabet wasn’t theirs.

The language of Lemnos and the writing there is ETRUSCAN-PHOENICIAN, don't you see it cormac?

As the Cumae alphabet dates to the 8th century BC, the earliest example of Etruscan (the Marsiliana d'Albegna tablet) to c.700 BC and the Latin alphabet dates to later in the the 7th, then what I see is that you have no evidence of Latin or Etruscan dating to anywhere near 1200 BC. Your propensity to interpret mythology as fact notwithstanding, there is no verifiable evidence to support such a claim.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I think youre confusing the spoken language with the written language. Per my previous post:

They may have had a language, but the alphabet wasnt theirs.

As the Cumae alphabet dates to the 8th century BC, the earliest example of Etruscan (the Marsiliana d'Albegna tablet) to c.700 BC and the Latin alphabet dates to later in the the 7th, then what I see is that you have no evidence of Latin or Etruscan dating to anywhere near 1200 BC. Your propensity to interpret mythology as fact notwithstanding, there is no verifiable evidence to support such a claim.

cormac

I never said it was around c. 1200BC, your propensity to misquote me never fails to amuse me.

I asked you if you thought that Calchas the Etruscan haruspice was telling Agamemnon what to do c. 1200BC on Euboea...?

The claim that the Cumae alphabet came into Italy is not as clear cut as you think.

It is not clear whether the process of adaptation from the Greek alphabet took place in Italy from the first colony of Greeks, the city of Cumae, or in Greece/Asia Minor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Italic_alphabet#Etruscan_alphabet

I used Agamemnon and Calchas as an example to ask you...if Calchas in already on Euboea in the times it is mentioning Agamemnon, you should question who was actually on Euboea creating alphabets c.850BC - cause I say it was Phoenicians and Etruscans mining and trading there, and that alphabet is the one the Greeks used into their language, that same Western alphabet was then taken into Italy.

21 of the 26 archaic Etruscan letters were adopted for Old Latin from the 7th century BC, either directly from the Cumae alphabet, or via archaic Etruscan forms, compared to the classical Etruscan alphabet retaining B, D, K, O, Q, X but dropping Θ, Ś, Φ, Ψ, F (Etruscan U is Latin V, Etruscan V is Latin F).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Italic_alphabet#Etruscan_alphabet

I'll just say again, my view hinges on the Latium people, flatlanders being Pelasgians in Greece.

Here's a JSTOR article with a new modern view of the Origins of the Latin alphabet. This is only one page.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/25010586

Edited August 29, 2010 by The Puzzler