The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1026 Share Posted August 29, 2010 (edited) The region that would become Latium had been home to settled agricultural populations since the early Bronze Age and was known to the Ancient Greeks and even earlier to the Mycenaean Greeks.[4] It was populated by a mixture of Indo-European and non-Indo-European language speakers. The name is most likely derived from the Latin word "latus", meaning "wide", expressing the idea of "flat land" (in contrast to the local Sabine high country) but the name may originate from an earlier, non Indo-European one. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latium Flat land. I'm going equates to Pelasgians. The Rape of the Sabine women is the theme on the Parthenon - all of a sudden transferred into Thessaly....? Co-incidently enough, where the Heracleids formed and returned into Greece. Here's Heracles, hanging out with Turan and co...looks like they are plotting to make Helen fall in love with Paris even though she is shaking hands on a marriage deal to Menelaus with Agamemnon. http://www.maravot.com/Divine_Mirror.html Edited August 29, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted August 29, 2010 #1027 Share Posted August 29, 2010 I never said it was around c. 1200BC, your propensity to misquote me never fails to amuse me. I never quoted you in the first place. Considering that your fall-back position, the reinterpretation of the timeframe of the Trojan War by 300 years, is wholly unevidenced by archaeologists then yes you rather implied a c.1200 BC dating. I don't think anyone was telling Agamemnon what to do, as there isn't a shred of historical/archaeological evidence that Agamemnon was an actual person. And yet, Arthur E. Gordon's 1969 article on the subject fails to be either definitive nor does it show evidence for Etruscan being several centuries older than is known, to be even remotely relevant to the Trojan War story. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1028 Share Posted August 29, 2010 Anyway, I'm over that for now, I have given my complete explanation on why I think Vanessa is a true Latium (Latin) name, spoken by Etruscans of Latium and that is why the word Vanessa is used instead of Greek Phanessa for the Latin name of the Butterfly. Abe, if they were people from Holland wouldn't they have said Atlandt, from what I know Dutch never has a D sound on land but a dt or t sound. We have Groote Eyelandt here, always the dt, never a d, when it's a Dutch spoken word. So, really Aldland does sound more like Atlandt than anything, which is like Atlant, sounding very Greek, dare I say, like Atlantis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1029 Share Posted August 29, 2010 I never quoted you in the first place. Considering that your fall-back position, the reinterpretation of the timeframe of the Trojan War by 300 years, is wholly unevidenced by archaeologists then yes you rather implied a c.1200 BC dating. I don't think anyone was telling Agamemnon what to do, as there isn't a shred of historical/archaeological evidence that Agamemnon was an actual person. And yet, Arthur E. Gordon's 1969 article on the subject fails to be either definitive nor does it show evidence for Etruscan being several centuries older than is known, to be even remotely relevant to the Trojan War story. cormac That's OK, I think you and I live on different planets anyway. Relief from Samothrace in the Louvre showing Agamemnon being initiated into the rites of the Cabeiri. The Trojan War is wholly unevidenced by archaeologists. Don't you see what you just said: There is no evidence Agamemnon was an actual person but the idea that the Trojan War was in 900BC goes against archaeology....?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1030 Share Posted August 29, 2010 PS: The name Memnon is from Latin and Agamemnon means treasurer (of Mycenae) you know, the treasury of Atreus. The word Memnon is LATIN. Aga cognates with the word silver in Etruscan. Leader of the assembly maybe, treasurer, for sure, and able to fund the expedition he wanted to go on. What's the Latin symbol for silver? In case you don't know, it Ag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1031 Share Posted August 29, 2010 (edited) Did you catch the part where Mycenaeans knew of Latium? I'll add all this part: Earliest known Latium was the country of the Latini, a tribe whose recognized center was a large, extinct volcano, Mons Albanus ("the Alban Mount", today's Colli Albani), 20 km (12 mi) to the southeast of Rome, 64 km (40 mi) in circumference. In its center is a crater lake, Lacus Albanus (Lago Albano), oval in shape, a few km long and wide. At the top of the second-highest peak (Monte Cavo) was a temple to Jupiter Latiaris, where the Latini held state functions before their subjection to Rome, and the Romans subsequently held religious and state ceremonies. The last pagan temple to be built stood until the Middle Ages when its stone and location were reused for various monasteries and finally a hotel. The Wehrmacht turned it into a radio station, which was captured after an infantry battle by American troops in 1944, and it currently is a controversial telecommunications station surrounded by antennae considered unsightly by the population within view. The selection of Jupiter as a state god and the descent of the name Latini to the name of the Latin language are sufficient to identify the Latins as a tribe of Indo-European descent. Vergil, a major poet of the early Roman Empire, under Augustus, derived Latium from the word for "hidden" (English latent) because in a myth Saturn, ruler of the golden age in Latium, hid (latuisset)[2] from Jupiter there.[3] [edit] History The region that would become Latium had been home to settled agricultural populations since the early Bronze Age and was known to the Ancient Greeks and even earlier to the Mycenaean Greeks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latium Edited August 29, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1032 Share Posted August 29, 2010 (edited) I hope you didn't miss the reference to Latium being near Mons Albanus, an extinct volcano with a crater lake where a temple of Jupiter can be found. Because it will all head around to me telling you these people were in the Aegean, and were on Lemnos, with their early Phoenician/Etruscan writing and were the cult of Hephaestus and the Cabeiri. ie; did you see that picture of Agamemnon being initiated into the Cabeiri? They were the sailors, Phoenician ships, allies with Etruscans, of Latium.......or can you find me some Greeks who were building ships to sail to Troy? Then they arrived on the coast of Asia Minor and on Euboea. Edited August 29, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted August 29, 2010 #1033 Share Posted August 29, 2010 The Trojan War is wholly unevidenced by archaeologists.Don't you see what you just said: There is no evidence Agamemnon was an actual person but the idea that the Trojan War was in 900BC goes against archaeology....?? To clarify, there is some (although small) evidence for the location known as Troy VIIa's destruction (possibly by war) in c.1180 BC. But nothing on the scale of Homer's Iliad. However, there is absolutely no evidence for any such kind of destruction of any extent for Troy VIIB3 which ended c.950 BC and was deserted for about 200 years. Your etymology for 'Agamemnon' in no way proves the existance of said character, regardless of any desire for it to be true. Did you catch the part where Mycenaeans knew of Latium? The area being known by the Mycenaeans from an earlier period has no bearing on the origin of the Latin alphabet. Have to say, you do weave a nice story though. cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1034 Share Posted August 29, 2010 I always think that if the Etruscans were not actually refugees from a war in Asia Minor and were actually descended from the Villanovan culture, it would mean they didn't come from Asia Minor at all and were not Trojan refugees, or were they refugees but Troy was not in Asia Minor? I think Veii sounds like a pretty good Troy myself. Considering Apollo was the God of Veii and Etruscans had been there since 10th century BC, it seems more logical since we have Odysseus getting lost in the Western Mediterranean. Etruscans are meant to be Trojan refugees as are the Romans. Not to mention Aeneus little stop in Carthage, that is, if you believe Carthage was settled in Trojan War times. Sorta all seems rather more logical it was actually near the Etruscans and Romans. Perfectly situated and right where we find most of the oldest accounts on pottery of the Trojan War. Oh, and that original Latin language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1035 Share Posted August 29, 2010 To clarify, there is some (although small) evidence for the location known as Troy VIIa's destruction (possibly by war) in c.1180 BC. But nothing on the scale of Homer's Iliad. However, there is absolutely no evidence for any such kind of destruction of any extent for Troy VIIB3 which ended c.950 BC and was deserted for about 200 years. Your etymology for 'Agamemnon' in no way proves the existance of said character, regardless of any desire for it to be true. The area being known by the Mycenaeans from an earlier period has no bearing on the origin of the Latin alphabet. Have to say, you do weave a nice story though. cormac I agree, small amount. What if it's not at 950BC at Troy because the war was not at Troy....Herodotus doesn't seem to know anything about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 29, 2010 #1036 Share Posted August 29, 2010 (edited) Anyway, I'm over that for now, I have given my complete explanation on why I think Vanessa is a true Latium (Latin) name, spoken by Etruscans of Latium and that is why the word Vanessa is used instead of Greek Phanessa for the Latin name of the Butterfly. Abe, if they were people from Holland wouldn't they have said Atlandt, from what I know Dutch never has a D sound on land but a dt or t sound. We have Groote Eyelandt here, always the dt, never a d, when it's a Dutch spoken word. So, really Aldland does sound more like Atlandt than anything, which is like Atlant, sounding very Greek, dare I say, like Atlantis. We used -d-, -dt- and -t- in 'land'. If you read really old Dutch ducuments you will see that spelling wasn't bound by steady rules. And the Frisians even finally dropped it altogether: Friesland (Dutch) >> Fryslan (Frisian). LOL, 'sounding very Greek, dare I say, like Atlantis'. Come on, Puzz, don't you have any shred of scepticism left in your body?? Of course Aldland/Atland/Atlant sounds very similar to Atlantis. . Edited August 29, 2010 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted August 29, 2010 #1037 Share Posted August 29, 2010 I agree, small amount. What if it's not at 950BC at Troy because the war was not at Troy....Herodotus doesn't seem to know anything about it. Then it couldn't be 'The Trojan War', as the the site of Ilium was believed to have been ancient Troy from at least the time of Homer's Iliad. There isn't even any evidence that 'Mycenaean' Greeks, in the least, had anything to do with Troy VIIa's destruction. Which goes against the claim of the Greeks fighting against the Trojans there. Probably an early example of the saying, "What a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive". cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1038 Share Posted August 29, 2010 (edited) The inscription on Nestor's Cup that you gave me a picture of as the Cumae alphabet dates c. 740-720BC with the Etruscan c. 700BC, not that much really and 20 years is hardly to quibble about when they are estimates anyway. OK, so maybe you can tell me how a city only founded in the 9th century BC sent ships to the Trojan war if it was c. 1200-1188BC? The oldest archaeological finds date the foundation of the city to the 9th century BCE. It was probably founded as the harbour of Lefkandi, which is located 15 km to the west. .The name comes from the Greek ἐρέτης, erétēs, rower, and the verb ἐρέσσειν/ἐρέττειν, eréssein/eréttein, to row, which makes Eretria the "City of the Rowers". Eretria's population and importance increased after Lefkandi's destruction by fire in 825 BCE. The earliest surviving mention of Eretria was by Homer (Iliad 2.537), who listed Eretria as one of the Greek cities which sent ships to the Trojan War. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eretria Edited August 29, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimJim22 Posted August 29, 2010 #1039 Share Posted August 29, 2010 Very interesting stuff but I can contribute little. Your knowledge always amazes me Puzz. I will just follow a long quietly. I imagine you have read these links but they were so extensive I thought it worth adding them. http://www.maravot.com/Phrygian1K.html http://www.kchanson.com/ARTICLES/king.html http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/ancient/1801/The-Sea-People-were-Greeks The Balkanic ancestors of the Phrygians –named Bryges by Herodotus– moved to Asia Minor during a period of crisis that occurred at the end of the Bronze Age. The archaeological findings indicate that the proto-Phrygians had maintained contacts with the Mycenaean Greeks in the area of the Thermaic Gulf and that they played an important role in the Mediterranean crisis. Small groups of this people settled in central and southern Greece, and a more numerous contingent must have allied with the Mycenaeans around 1200 BC, in order to invade various regions of Anatolia and Syria. The proto-Phrygians used a characteristic style of handmade pottery, which has been found not only in Asia Minor but also in Greece, Cyprus and the Syrian coast. http://www.sea-peoples.blogspot.com/ http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Pelasgians A little puzzler I am struggling with is Yavan is the hebrew terms for greeks, Yavana is the sanskrit term for Ionians I think. How does this fit together? Consdiering the OLB has vague connections to Sindh and Greece I thought it worthy of note. http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/sub-saharan-turkish-tribes-which-today-call-their-self-greeks-have-not-ethymolog http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2010/01/31/macedonia-yavan-yauna-ionians-history/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1040 Share Posted August 29, 2010 Then it couldn't be 'The Trojan War', as the the site of Ilium was believed to have been ancient Troy from at least the time of Homer's Iliad. There isn't even any evidence that 'Mycenaean' Greeks, in the least, had anything to do with Troy VIIa's destruction. Which goes against the claim of the Greeks fighting against the Trojans there. Probably an early example of the saying, "What a tangled web we weave, when we practice to deceive". cormac Yes, I love that saying. Maybe it is only believed because Homer put it there. In saying that, I am not against it being in Asia Minor but not totally convinced yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1041 Share Posted August 29, 2010 (edited) One more on the Trojan war cormac.. OK, the Franks say they are descended from Trojans, the French, Paris and all, but they have Hector on their playing cards as the Jack of Diamonds, because they claim to be Trojans. This was poo-poohed by the 18th century. But if you look closely again at the Divine Mirror you can see 2 things that are very French. One is the Ermine they are wearing and the 2nd is the Fleur de Lis being held. So, are indeed the French Trojans?... probably so. Here's a picture I found on the net that I have in a book when I first noticed the 2 distinctive things the same as in the Divine Mirror picture and realised they had Hector on their playing cards too, then of course, we have Paris. Freedom and liberty. Not on Mary, but on Francis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Queen_of_Scots Slim reminded me of Phrygia: Phrygia retained a separate cultural identity. Classical Greek iconography identifies the Trojan Paris as non-Greek by his Phrygian cap, which was worn by Mithras and survived into modern imagery as the "Liberty cap" of the American and French revolutionaries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia Edited August 29, 2010 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1042 Share Posted August 29, 2010 Very interesting stuff but I can contribute little. Your knowledge always amazes me Puzz. I will just follow a long quietly. I imagine you have read these links but they were so extensive I thought it worth adding them. http://www.maravot.com/Phrygian1K.html http://www.kchanson.com/ARTICLES/king.html http://www.historykb.com/Uwe/Forum.aspx/ancient/1801/The-Sea-People-were-Greeks The Balkanic ancestors of the Phrygians –named Bryges by Herodotus– moved to Asia Minor during a period of crisis that occurred at the end of the Bronze Age. The archaeological findings indicate that the proto-Phrygians had maintained contacts with the Mycenaean Greeks in the area of the Thermaic Gulf and that they played an important role in the Mediterranean crisis. Small groups of this people settled in central and southern Greece, and a more numerous contingent must have allied with the Mycenaeans around 1200 BC, in order to invade various regions of Anatolia and Syria. The proto-Phrygians used a characteristic style of handmade pottery, which has been found not only in Asia Minor but also in Greece, Cyprus and the Syrian coast. http://www.sea-peoples.blogspot.com/ http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Pelasgians A little puzzler I am struggling with is Yavan is the hebrew terms for greeks, Yavana is the sanskrit term for Ionians I think. How does this fit together? Consdiering the OLB has vague connections to Sindh and Greece I thought it worthy of note. http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/sub-saharan-turkish-tribes-which-today-call-their-self-greeks-have-not-ethymolog http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/2010/01/31/macedonia-yavan-yauna-ionians-history/ Thanks for the links Slim. Yes, must get back on the OLB track. What I note Slim, all the time is that cities are established AFTER the Trojan war date. From tribal and village beginnings, the state of Phrygia arose in the 8th century BC with its capital at Gordium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia We know from myth that it was Gordium that Gordias arrived, there is no way I see them being in Asia Minor prior to 1200BC, enough time to have established to be part of Priam's timeframe. I see this all the time and it is what questions me constantly about the Trojan war being at the time they say. These Bruges, when still in the Balkans could have the tie in. I'm aware of the Yavan thing but would have to research more to give a proper answer, which I will try and do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 29, 2010 #1043 Share Posted August 29, 2010 One more on the Trojan war cormac.. OK, the Franks say they are descended from Trojans, the French, Paris and all, but they have Hector on their playing cards as the Jack of Diamonds, because they claim to be Trojans. This was poo-poohed by the 18th century. But if you look closely again at the Divine Mirror you can see 2 things that are very French. One is the Ermine they are wearing and the 2nd is the Fleur de Lis being held. So, are indeed the French Trojans?... probably so. Here's a picture I found on the net that I have in a book when I first noticed the 2 distinctive things the same as in the Divine Mirror picture and realised they had Hector on their playing cards too, then of course, we have Paris. Freedom and liberty. Not on Mary, but on Francis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary,_Queen_of_Scots Slim reminded me of Phrygia: Phrygia retained a separate cultural identity. Classical Greek iconography identifies the Trojan Paris as non-Greek by his Phrygian cap, which was worn by Mithras and survived into modern imagery as the "Liberty cap" of the American and French revolutionaries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygia Puzz, in those days it was considered as something special if your bloodline descended from Greeks or Trojans or Egyptians. You probably also believe that the Merovingians were descndents of Jesus?? If these people had heard of aliens,back then they would no doubt have said they were the descendents from the gods of Zeta Ridiculous, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1044 Share Posted August 29, 2010 Slim, I've got to go to bed very soon but just wanted to add don't forget the story of Andromeda, which funny enough, I watched the old 1981 Clash of the Titans last night, Perses, child of Perseus and Andromeda is the ancestor of the Persians according to themselves so it does show a very early Greek-Persian link. The name Achaemenes really does ring an Achaean sound. Xerxes, it is said, before he set forth on his expedition against Greece, sent a herald to Argos, who on his arrival spoke as follows: “Men of Argos, King Xerxes speaks thus to you. We Persians deem that the Perses from whom we descend was the child of Perseus the son of Danae, and of Andromeda the daughter of Cepheus. Hereby it would seem that we come of your stock and lineage. http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Perses.html A mythic telling of course but what truths are steeped in these myths. It could also be because the Ionians lived in the area controlled by Persia before the Ionian Revolt, which irked the Persians no end and started the wars between them, even though Herodotus tells us the Persians didn't like the Greeks because they attacked Troy, more like they attacked them, the Ionians attacked the Persians first. Croesus ruled the area before the Persians took control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1045 Share Posted August 29, 2010 Puzz, in those days it was considered as something special if your bloodline descended from Greeks or Trojans or Egyptians. You probably also believe that the Merovingians were descndents of Jesus?? If these people had heard of aliens,back then they would no doubt have said they were the descendents from the gods of Zeta Ridiculous, lol. So you don't see the Ermine fur or fleur de lis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted August 29, 2010 #1046 Share Posted August 29, 2010 So you don't see the Ermine fur or fleur de lis? I see a flower, and a bunch of nudists of whom some wear something that looks like spotted fur. But all that, even if it's the same flower and fur, what does that prove?? Nada, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted August 29, 2010 #1047 Share Posted August 29, 2010 I see a flower, and a bunch of nudists of whom some wear something that looks like spotted fur. But all that, even if it's the same flower and fur, what does that prove?? Nada, right? Obviously nothing to you then....lots to me. Tomorrow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cormac mac airt Posted August 29, 2010 #1048 Share Posted August 29, 2010 So Homer may not have known WHERE or likely WHEN Troy and the Trojan War was, but we're supposed to believe he knew WHO was involved? I'm not buying it. If his details of the location are in question, then there is nothing to suggest his knowledge of those involved is any better. I have to agree with Abramelin, it doesn't look like a fleur-de-lis to me either. Pareidolia, perhaps? cormac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimJim22 Posted August 29, 2010 #1049 Share Posted August 29, 2010 The Greeks did not know that the Trojans who once lived in that area were migrants, as the collective memory of this fact was lost during the Dark Ages (1200-750 BC). A small example of finds at Cambridge University Museum From 1180 to 1100 Hissarlik was indeed inhabited by a non-local people. They were the survivors of the greatest war of prehistory, when Troy on the Gog Magog Hills in Cambridgeshire, England, was destroyed. Here, countless bronze weapons and other remains of a major war in the late Bronze Age have been found. The great migrations of the second millennium BC brought the Achaeans, Troy's enemies, from regions along the Atlantic coast of the Continent to the Mediterranean where they caused the collapse of many civilisations. The name 'Achaeans' means 'Watermen' or 'Sea People' (the Gothic 'acha' for 'water' or 'stream' is cognate with Latin 'aqua'). The Greek historian Herodotus (fifth century BC) confirms that Pelasgians ('Sea Peoples') had settled in Greece long before his time. They founded Athens, renamed places, merged with the local population and adopted their language. The Dictys Trojan War papyrus confirmed the existence of an earlier one in the Phoenician alphabet, in use long before the Greek alphabet existed. With the Achaeans came their gods and their oral tradition, including the Iliad and the Odyssey, which were written down in Greek only around 750 BC. Meanwhile, the newcomers had engaged in the time-honoured practice of renaming towns, rivers and mountains after familiar places in their former homelands. The transfer of place-names naturally led to the belief that the events described in the epics took place in Greece and the Mediterranean and that the Achaeans were Greeks. http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/ I don't know if this is true or even relevant particularly but I had not heard such a theory before. Not read this next one yet but it looks riduculous enough for me to post. http://creation.com/images/pdfs/tj/j16_3/j16_3_79-83.pdf Iapetus ("the Piercer") is the one Titan mentioned by Homer in the Iliad (8.478–81) as being in Tartarus with Cronus. He is a brother of Cronus, who ruled the world during the Golden Age. Iapetus' wife is normally a daughter of Oceanus and Tethys named Clymene or Asia. In Hesiod's Works and Days Prometheus is addressed as "son of Iapetus", and no mother is named. However, in Hesiod's Theogony, Klymene is listed as Iapetus' wife and the mother of Prometheus. In Aeschylus's play Prometheus Bound, Prometheus is son of the goddess Themis with no father named (but still with at least Atlas as a brother). However, in Horace's Odes, in Ode 1.3 Horace describes how "audax Iapeti genus/ Ignem fraude mala gentibus intulit"; "The bold offspring of Iapetus [i.e. Prometheus]/ brought fire to peoples by wicked deceit". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapetus_(mythology) I'm a fly caught in the web. Sorry to confuse the issues under discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimJim22 Posted August 29, 2010 #1050 Share Posted August 29, 2010 So Homer may not have known WHERE or likely WHEN Troy and the Trojan War was, but we're supposed to believe he knew WHO was involved? I'm not buying it. If his details of the location are in question, then there is nothing to suggest his knowledge of those involved is any better. I have to agree with Abramelin, it doesn't look like a fleur-de-lis to me either. Pareidolia, perhaps? cormac Hah, I was looking for a plant... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia It does look a little like a fleur de lis. Why would it be a fleur de lis if that is what it is? http://www.flowersinisrael.com/Fleur_de_lis_page.htm It is the most common symbol of royalty, why is this? Isn't it based on a middle eatsern plant. I forget the name but was used as a symbol because it kinda represents a trinity like the shamrock or something. On the etruscan mirro it may not look like a typical fleur de lis but what else could it be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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