[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[Otharus]

Here's just an interesting fact I found.

The wife of Dr. Ottema, Sara van Heukelom (born Leiden 1805) died in the early morning of December 25, 1851.

[Abramelin]

Shambhala? Was the Mahabharata and the Puranas known to the Dutch at the alleged time of the OLB's writing?

All I know is that Halbertsma knew of Hinduism and Buddhism. He sort of introduced Buddhism in the Netherlands.

Heh, read about Halbertsma and his ideas about Hinduism, Buddha, and Sanskrit:

==

Dutch:

Rond 1840 was het de doopsgezinde Friese dominee Joast Hiddes Halbertsma die als eerste publiceerde over het boeddhisme. Zijn belangstelling werd gek genoeg niet gewekt door de religie, maar door de taal, het Sanskriet. Aanleiding was de ontdekking van 62 oorspronkelijke Sanskrietteksten, begin 19de eeuw door de Britse diplomaat en etnoloog Brian Hodgson, met informatie over het boeddhisme.

(...)

Voor dominee Halbertsma was Boeddha een reformator van het hindoeïsme, die ageerde tegen de brahmanen (priesters), beelden, offers en rituelen. Poorthuis: „Hij vergeleek het hindoeïsme met de rk kerk. Veel Nederlanders hebben nog steeds sterk het idee dat het boeddhisme een soort zuivere hervorming is, ook van bijvoorbeeld het christendom met zijn macht en instituties. Ze creëren daarmee onbewust een soort calvinistisch boeddhisme, dat pretendeert te strijden tegen hiërarchie, rituelen en instituties.”

http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4324/nieuws/article/detail/1144120/2009/04/16/Ieder-zijn-eigen-Boeddha.dhtml

English:

Around 1840 it was the Frisian Mennonite pastor Joast Hiddes Halbertsma who first published about Buddhism. Strangely, his interest was not awakened by the religion but by the language, Sanskrit. The cause was the discovery of 62 original Sanskrit texts, early 19th century by British diplomat and ethnologist Brian Hodgson, with information about Buddhism.

(...)

According to pastor Halbertsma Buddha was a reformer of Hinduism who campaigned against the Brahmins (priests), statues, rituals and sacrifices. Poorthuis: "He compared Hinduism with the Roman Catholic Church . Many Dutch still strongly feel that Buddhism is a kind of pure reform, also of the Christianity with its power and institutions. With this they unconsciously create a sort of Calvinistic Buddhism, which claims to fight against hierarchy, rituals and institutions. "

==

Dutch:

Het begon met een dominee

U mag het geloven of niet, maar het boeddhisme begon in ons land met een dominee. Het was de doopsgezinde Friese predikant Joast Hiddes Halbertsma die in 1843 de brochure schreef ‘ Het Buddhisme en zijn stichter’. Hij had al eerder geschreven over witte wieven, oorijzers en paaseieren, en daar kon dus nog wel wat extra exotisch bij. Dat werd dus het boeddhisme, dat qua taal, het Sanskriet, zelfs verwant zou zijn geweest aan het Hindelopense dialect volgens de predikant.

English:

It began with a pastor

Believe it or not, Buddhism in our country began with a pastor. It was the Frisian Mennonite pastor Joast Hiddes Halbertsma who in 1843 wrote the booklet "The Buddhism and its founder. He had previously written about "witte wieven", earrings and Easter eggs, and it was thus ok to add something extra exotic. So it was Buddhism, which in terms of language, Sanskrit, even would have been akin to the Hindelopense dialect according to the minister.

http://www.geschiedenis24.nl/nieuws/boeken/2009/april/Boek-van-de-week-Boeddha-in-Nederland.html

(BTW: Hindeloopen is a city in Friesland).

(BTW BTW: lol, did he see something 'hindu' in the name of that city???)

I think I will continue digging in the not so distant past.....

.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

That contradiction, and others like it, could be contrived to give the impression of the changing attitude over the centuries. Others could simply be mistakes, the manuscript might have taken a very long time to write, in that strange alphabet. The forger could have been at it for years. My opinion that it was the same person is based on the fact that it reads the same all the way through, it has the same tone, the same way of expressing things.

Well, it was Knul and Otharus who had a different opinion about that.

[The Puzzler]

Seima-Turbino refers to burial sites dating around 1500 BC found across northern Eurasia, from Finland to Mongolia. The buried were nomadic warriors and metal-workers, travelling on horseback or two-wheeled chariots. These nomads originated from the Altai Mountains. Although they were the precursor to the much later Mongol invasions, these groups were not yet strong enough to attack the important social sites of the Bronze Age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_Phenomenon

This might be the origin of the N1c Y haplogroup in Sami Finns and also the Magyar.

Female lines in Finns are old European ones mainly. This to me also indicates that men were prime movers here, women nest, men hunt. People, mainly men, came in from the East, Altai to Kashmir to an old I1 Y line - this introduced the N1c to the Finns, who were actually there since 10,000BC, as Fryans, a new kind of Finn came into being - a mix of old I1 Fryan, incoming Asiatic N1c which took over most of the back of Schoonland, mixing, as R1a lines formed- maybe since c. 5-6000BC through to the Iron Age as Germanic Celts and Russian/Ukrainians moved North West.

Since Sami Finns also have a lot of I1 I would hazard a guess that the original I1 Y haplogroup in Europe (plus the R1a who would have arrived by then) was infiltrated by an Asiatic N1c people who entered around 1500BC, or earlier, I doubt that is an exact date - the Asiatic N1c people would be the Magyar imo, a Siberian Altai/proto Turk type - with even a genetic connection to China.

I1 are said to be the megalithic European culture.

R1a would have been from an expansion from the steppes and Kurgan IE people, a fair haired and blue eyed group. This group stayed North in Europe and moved into Scandinavia - while a southern Celtic group (R1b) spread from Western Austria at least, throughout Europe as well, into Italy, France, Spain and England, these people were darker than the Northern R1a types, who developed into Germanic peoples and stayed fairer due to climate as well as original genetics of fairness. The R1a in England would be from Germanic Anglo-Saxon peoples, including Frisians. Frisians also have R1b which tells me they are akin to people living in the Alps as well, a type of early Celt. These people often have true auburn hair, and I believe reddish hues of hair comes from this R1b line, who would also have been in Thrace.

Below is the explanation for R1a into Germany and Scandinavia - note R1b is not in central Germany 2600BC, I don't think it had passed the Alps at that point.

The Bronze Age annnounces a very different development. R1a people appear to have been the first to successfully penetrate into the heart of Europe, with the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture (3200-1800 BCE) as a natural western expansion of the Yamna culture. They went as far west as Germany and Scandinavia. DNA analysis from the Corded Ware culture site of Eulau confirms the presence of R1a (but not R1b) in central Germany around 2600 BCE. The Corded Ware migrants might well have expanded from the forest-steppe, or the northern fringe of the Yamna culture, where R1a lineages were prevalent over R1b ones.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

I would hesitate to say fair hair and blue eyes was in Northern Europe prior to R1a people, but that could have been anytime from c. 5000BC, even earlier.

cormac may wish to correct me on anything there but I think it COULD have occurred (aligning it with known info on those groups) for the various haplogroups in Finns to be how they are.

Edited April 20, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Maybe best to reread what you and I posted about Seima-Turbino, Puzz. Or else you will have to do all the work all over again.

Just enter "Seima" top-right (magnifying glas).

[Flibbertigibbet]

Can language shed any light on this? What was the state of the knowledge of linguistics when the book was written? It says that the Celts split off from the Frisians at around 1600 BC, could this be correct?

[Alewyn]

Please give one example of a non-Dutch investigator that 'the Dutch' (who? be specific) have tried to silence.

The OLB suggests that from 2200 BC till 300 BC (except some times of crisis) the Frya's had chosen 'Folk-Mothers' as their highest authority.

Then you suggest that anyone who describes this civilization as a 'matriarchy' has not understood the OLB.

I have argued why I don't agree with you and I gave some examples of your confusing (misleading) translations.

How is that trying to silence you?!

I have quoted you on my blog before and there is even a link to your website.

I rather let you speak frankly like you just did and expose yourself, than silence you.

In post 11199 yesterday YOU said:

Are Sandbach's translation and your understanding of the Dutch language that bad?

From your comment I took it that if my or anyone else’s Dutch is not as good as yours, we are at a disadvantage and therefore not entitled to disagree with Dutch speakers on their interpretation of the OLB. This is what I mean when I say that non-Dutch speakers are in essence discredited and therefore effectively silenced. I took it for granted that you and Abramelin would understand that it did not mean being literally silenced or gagged. Perhaps I should in future spell out what I mean - for your benefit.

Btw, I am fully aware that the original manuscript was written in Old Frisian, but you brought up Dutch as a prerequisite here to understanding the OLB.

I find it quite strange that every Dutch (and English) translation of the OLB over the last 140 years has been criticized in this forum by you and Abe. Some of these translators clearly had much better credentials than anybody participating here. Why don’t you publish your own versions instead of criticizing other’s efforts? Then perhaps we can all sing from the same hymn sheet. Please put your money where your mouth is and subject yourself to public scrutiny.

[Abramelin]

Can language shed any light on this? What was the state of the knowledge of linguistics when the book was written? It says that the Celts split off from the Frisians at around 1600 BC, could this be correct?

Same advice to you: use the search tool top-right (and in this thread only = the magnifying glass).

This thread is 750 pages long, I know, but there is this search button that works great.

[The Puzzler]

Maybe best to reread what you and I posted about Seima-Turbino, Puzz. Or else you will have to do all the work all over again.

Just enter "Seima" top-right (magnifying glas).

Why, what's your point Abe, we discussed it being a point for a great flood, yes, fine, fits even better.

I was attempting to explain an actual genetic connection for the makeup of the Finns to align with the OLB story and imo it can. I do not think all the Finns/Sami are incomers, there is an original portion of them underneath that would have included Fryans at the time.

Edited April 20, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

I find it quite strange that every Dutch (and English) translation of the OLB over the last 140 years has been criticized in this forum by you and Abe. Some of these translators clearly had much better credentials than anybody participating here. Why don’t you publish your own versions instead of criticizing other’s efforts? Then perhaps we can all sing from the same hymn sheet. Please put your money where your mouth is and subject yourself to public scrutiny.

So you want us to start all over again?

No, I know now that you do this quite regularly. Like you are suggesting that we do not post sources or other suggestive crap. And then you come back saying that next time you wil spell it out.

We do post sources, we do use sources with better credentials than a Sandbach or Steele or even a Ottema, and we all explain why certain translations ARE PLAIN WRONG. And sometimes more versions are possible, but most often the ones by Ottema or Sandbach and now Jensma is not amongst them.

If you don't likw that... nevermind.

[Abramelin]

Why, what's your point Abe, we discussed it being a point for a great flood, yes, fine, fits even better.

I was attempting to explain an actual genetic connection for the makeup of the Finns to align with the OLB story and imo it can. I do not think all the Finns/Sami are incomers, there is an original portion of them underneath that would have included Fryans at the time.

My point is that I know it's quite late where you live, and plus the fact that sometimes I have the impression - excuse me if I am wrong - that you totally forgot you posted about some topic before (considering the time overthere it would be no shame, lol).

[Flibbertigibbet]

So you want us to start all over again?

No, I know now that you do this quite regularly. Like you are suggesting that we do not post sources or other suggestive crap. And then you come back saying that next time you wil spell it out.

We do post sources, we do use sources with better credentials than a Sandbach or Steele or even a Ottema, and we all explain why certain translations ARE PLAIN WRONG. And sometimes more versions are possible, but most often the ones by Ottema or Sandbach and now Jensma is not amongst them.

If you don't likw that... nevermind.

What's the best available translation, then?

[The Puzzler]

My point is that I know it's quite late where you live, and plus the fact that sometimes I have the impression - excuse me if I am wrong - that you totally forgot you posted about some topic before (considering the time overthere it would be no shame, lol).

This time I am more aware of the genetic haplogroups, so I bought it up for different reasons. The conversation was going along the line of the Finns at the time and who they are. But yes, it's late, goodnight all.

[The Puzzler]

What's the best available translation, then?

My 2c...

My fave is the Angelfire site, Sandbach plus Ottema transliteration:

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

The Tresoar site has the original OLB but Knul has them here, all photocopied:

http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html

This is a Frisian dictionary:

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/afrieswbhinw.html

Have fun!

[Flibbertigibbet]

My 2c...

My fave is the Angelfire site, Sandbach plus Ottema transliteration:

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

The Tresoar site has the original OLB but Knul has them here, all photocopied:

http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html

This is a Frisian dictionary:

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/afrieswbhinw.html

Have fun!

Thanks, yes that Sandbach one is the one I've been reading.

[Abramelin]

Thanks, yes that Sandbach one is the one I've been reading.

Puzz posted a link to a German site. I don't know about your command of German, but on that same site is also an English-Old Frisian wordlist: http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/ne-afries.pdf

And yes, the best available English translation is Sandbach's. What I like is that the original transliterated text is right beside it.

.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Flibbertigibbet]

Puzz posted a link to a German site. I don't know about your command of German, but on that same site is also an English-Old Frisian wordlist: http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/ne-afries.pdf

And yes, the best available English translation is Sandbach's. What I like is that the original transliterated text is right beside it.

.

My command of German is nonexistent I'm afraid. It'll have to be Sandbach's, then.

[Abramelin]

My command of German is nonexistent I'm afraid. It'll have to be Sandbach's, then.

OK, in that case, when you go check some Old Frisian word (by clicking on one of the letters of the alphabet) on the site Puzz linked to, a pdf will open with at the left a list of words beginning with that letter, and to the right of it a German etymology. But don't be scared now, lol, you will also notice that there is an English translation hidden in all that German gibberish. It always starts with -ne: blahblah.

An example:

gret-man-n 56, gret-mon-n, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Richter, Leiter eines

Bezirksgerichts; ne. judge (M.); Vw.: s. lan-d-es-, merk-ad-; Q.: W, S, Schw; E.: s.

gret (2), man-n; L.: Hh 36a, Rh 784a

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-G.pdf

.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Flibbertigibbet]

OK, in that case, when you go check some Old Frisian word (by clicking on one of the letters of the alphabet) on the site Puzz linked to, a pdf will open with at the left a list of words beginning with that letter, and to the right of it a German etymology. But don't be scared now, lol, you will also notice that there is an English translation hidden in all that German gibberish. It always starts with -ne: blahblah.

Ok thanks.

[Abramelin]

And now I have a question for you, Flibbertigibbet.

You mentioned Rudbeck's book and we all know about that book by reading online comments and Wiki pages about it. Did you read his books about "Atland"? A translation in English, maybe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atland

And if you did, is it online somewhere?

Mind you: it's HUGE, like 6000 pages (or 2000, I forgot).

.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

A magistrate is an officer of the state; in modern usage the term usually refers to a judge. This was not always the case; in ancient Rome, a magistratus was one of the highest government officers and possessed both judicial and executive powers. Today, in common law systems, a magistrate has limited law enforcement and administration authority. In civil law systems, a magistrate might be a judge in a superior court; the magistrates' court might have jurisdiction over civil and criminal cases. A related, but not always equivalent, term is chief magistrate, which historically can denote a political and administrative officer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magistrate

OLB "grevetman" >> Modern Frisian "grietman" :

A grietman (literally: he who greets) is partly a forerunner of the current rural mayor in the province of Friesland, and partly the forerunner of a judge. The area of jurisdiction was the municipality or gemeente. In the judge function, the concept was also found in the Western side of the province of Groningen.

The grietman and judges were responsible for the administration and justice in the Frisian grietenij. The grietmannen were in turn elected or appointed, with the cooperation of the stadholder and the Executive Council. The eleven Frisian cities have mayors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grietman

In the OLB a 'grevetman' functions more as a mayor than as a judge.

But in Old Frisan he's a judge:

gret-man-n 56, gret-mon-n, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Richter, Leiter eines

Bezirksgerichts; ne. judge (M.); Vw.: s. lan-d-es-, merk-ad-; Q.: W, S, Schw; E.: s.

gret (2), man-n; L.: Hh 36a, Rh 784a

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-G.pdf

+++++++++++++++++++++++

EDIT:

Oud en Nieuw Friesland, of aardrijkskundige beschrijving van die provincie - Montanus de Haan Hettema / 1840

http://books.google.nl/books?id=ZIQ6AAAAcAAJ&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=%22grevetman%22&source=bl&ots=7nAhvO2Arb&sig=mz8GKAMvxMFVMb3h3T7H1pBZ0As&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=6D2RT8vcF4qG-wbO2YSGBA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=true

Translation:

This word is composed of 'Grete' or 'Griete', 'krite', to complain, and 'nie (nige), corner. According to me it means "complaint corner (?), so a place where people can complain. Thus a Grietman, for whom formerly people used the word "riuchter", judge, was a man to whom people would go when they had some complaint. Others called it 'Grevetman', that is 'Gravenman' (Counts' man..?): others 'Krite', surroundings, district; but where do we place the tail of the word, 'nie'?

I even have to think of the Dutch word "grieven" (complaints, grievances) or the French "grave" (serious).

.

It's kind of telling that the only source that shows us "grevetman", like in the OLB, is Montanus de Haan Hettema, 1840.

When you Google "grevetman", you will end up at an online copy of the OLB, here, or at an online copy of Hettema's book.

And when I read about the function of the 'grevetman' or 'grietman' I have to think of a human version of the Jewish 'Wailing Wall', lol.

.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

For those eager to quote tomes, please check this thread:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=225924

[cormac mac airt]

Seima-Turbino refers to burial sites dating around 1500 BC found across northern Eurasia, from Finland to Mongolia. The buried were nomadic warriors and metal-workers, travelling on horseback or two-wheeled chariots. These nomads originated from the Altai Mountains. Although they were the precursor to the much later Mongol invasions, these groups were not yet strong enough to attack the important social sites of the Bronze Age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_Phenomenon

This might be the origin of the N1c Y haplogroup in Sami Finns and also the Magyar.

Female lines in Finns are old European ones mainly. This to me also indicates that men were prime movers here, women nest, men hunt. People, mainly men, came in from the East, Altai to Kashmir to an old I1 Y line - this introduced the N1c to the Finns, who were actually there since 10,000BC, as Fryans, a new kind of Finn came into being - a mix of old I1 Fryan, incoming Asiatic N1c which took over most of the back of Schoonland, mixing, as R1a lines formed- maybe since c. 5-6000BC through to the Iron Age as Germanic Celts and Russian/Ukrainians moved North West.

Since Sami Finns also have a lot of I1 I would hazard a guess that the original I1 Y haplogroup in Europe (plus the R1a who would have arrived by then) was infiltrated by an Asiatic N1c people who entered around 1500BC, or earlier, I doubt that is an exact date - the Asiatic N1c people would be the Magyar imo, a Siberian Altai/proto Turk type - with even a genetic connection to China.

I1 are said to be the megalithic European culture.

R1a would have been from an expansion from the steppes and Kurgan IE people, a fair haired and blue eyed group. This group stayed North in Europe and moved into Scandinavia - while a southern Celtic group (R1b) spread from Western Austria at least, throughout Europe as well, into Italy, France, Spain and England, these people were darker than the Northern R1a types, who developed into Germanic peoples and stayed fairer due to climate as well as original genetics of fairness. The R1a in England would be from Germanic Anglo-Saxon peoples, including Frisians. Frisians also have R1b which tells me they are akin to people living in the Alps as well, a type of early Celt. These people often have true auburn hair, and I believe reddish hues of hair comes from this R1b line, who would also have been in Thrace.

Below is the explanation for R1a into Germany and Scandinavia - note R1b is not in central Germany 2600BC, I don't think it had passed the Alps at that point.

The Bronze Age annnounces a very different development. R1a people appear to have been the first to successfully penetrate into the heart of Europe, with the Corded Ware (Battle Axe) culture (3200-1800 BCE) as a natural western expansion of the Yamna culture. They went as far west as Germany and Scandinavia. DNA analysis from the Corded Ware culture site of Eulau confirms the presence of R1a (but not R1b) in central Germany around 2600 BCE. The Corded Ware migrants might well have expanded from the forest-steppe, or the northern fringe of the Yamna culture, where R1a lineages were prevalent over R1b ones.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

I would hesitate to say fair hair and blue eyes was in Northern Europe prior to R1a people, but that could have been anytime from c. 5000BC, even earlier.

cormac may wish to correct me on anything there but I think it COULD have occurred (aligning it with known info on those groups) for the various haplogroups in Finns to be how they are.

Puzzler, there are two problems with your train of thought in this regards:

1) I1 itself only dates to c.2000 - 4000 BC whereas N apparently entered Europe c.10,000 - 12,000 BC meaning that the subgroup N1c was already likely in the area of the Finns BEFORE I1 even existed.

2) As we're discussed before, after the Sami-Berber split the Sami appear to have travelled east/northeast to where they now currently reside. Meaning that they would appear to have moved into an area already occupied by another Y Chromosome haplogroup. In this case the line would be either N or one of its subgroups N1 or N1c. I don't know that the dating for the latter two is currently known with any specificity. In any case, the evidence would suggest that the male lineage didn't move in on the females, but just the opposite.

cormac

[Flibbertigibbet]

And now I have a question for you, Flibbertigibbet.

You mentioned Rudbeck's book and we all know about that book by reading online comments and Wiki pages about it. Did you read his books about "Atland"? A translation in English, maybe?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atland

And if you did, is it online somewhere?

Mind you: it's HUGE, like 6000 pages (or 2000, I forgot).

.

No I just read about it on Wiki.

[The Puzzler]

Puzzler, there are two problems with your train of thought in this regards:

1) I1 itself only dates to c.2000 - 4000 BC whereas N apparently entered Europe c.10,000 - 12,000 BC meaning that the subgroup N1c was already likely in the area of the Finns BEFORE I1 even existed.

2) As we're discussed before, after the Sami-Berber split the Sami appear to have travelled east/northeast to where they now currently reside. Meaning that they would appear to have moved into an area already occupied by another Y Chromosome haplogroup. In this case the line would be either N or one of its subgroups N1 or N1c. I don't know that the dating for the latter two is currently known with any specificity. In any case, the evidence would suggest that the male lineage didn't move in on the females, but just the opposite.

cormac

I should have known better than to write that up at 4am. I must have been thinking pre-I1 lines, which may go back to 20,000ybp. I'll look at N1c1 again and readjust.