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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


Riaan
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But why do you call it a "key word"?

"This is her most important duty, and it is the duty of all of us to help her in performing it."

And now think of our current political crisis...

~ ~ ~

Did I ever mention I have an 'agenda'?

:innocent:

Otharus, do you have an opinion, since you asked about it in the first place..?

Abe is right.

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In fact, I can find a new meaning for the Tunis sentence...

SKAT FIL according to the Koebler dictionary would equate to "lap the steep shore"

SKAT=lap/coat-tails FIL=steep shore

I'll think about it some more.

SKAT is nothing but 'treasure', or "schat" in modern Dutch. I sometimes used it - and spelled it like that - when talking with a woman I loved.

"Hi skat, honey, how are you?"

And then they always asked me why I pronounced it like that, lol. Well, I just liked to pronounce it like that.

Puzz, you can dig into every dictionary you can find online, but you should not forget about word-order. And the 'Old Frisian" used in the OLB is so very close to Dutch it is scary.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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SKAT is nothing but 'treasure', or "schat" in modern Dutch. I sometimes used it - and spelled it like that - when talking with a woman I loved.

"Hi skat, honey, how are you?"

And then they always asked me why I pronounced it like that, lol. Well, I just liked to pronounce it like that.

Puzz, you can dig into every dictionary you can find online, but you should not forget about word-order. And the 'Old Frisian" used in the OLB is so very close to Dutch it is scary.

.

I know skat is schatten, treasure, I had it myself - but in Frisian skat is something else I see - the OLB is not Dutch - this is where imo much of the translation is coming up wrong.

It was word order that got me thinking, the word order you had with viel and binna next to each other is hardly acceptable imo, they are no where near each other and if SKAT FIL is not many treasures because the word order is incorrect, then I hardly think what you said is correct, your word order is worse than what I had.

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:innocent:

Abe is right.

I don't think so, why are you using a Dutch expression? the wording is not fil binna - the wording is MITH AL THI SKÀT FÍL TÜNIS THÀT FLÍ-MAR BINNA but if you want to stick fil next to binna go right ahead....why you would do that is beyond me.

Didn't you see my other post? MET. is modest rather than moderate and should fit in some form in each of the pieces you are referring to imo. Maybe you don't see it, but the Fryans are clearly a modest people and I'd think they found it the most important trait of all.

mod·est (mdst)

adj.

1. Having or showing a moderate estimation of one's own talents, abilities, and value.

2. Having or proceeding from a disinclination to call attention to oneself; retiring or diffident. See Synonyms at shy1.

3. Observing conventional proprieties in speech, behavior, or dress.

4. Free from showiness or ostentation; unpretentious. See Synonyms at plain.

5. Moderate or limited in size, quantity, or range; not extreme: a modest price; a newspaper with a modest circulation.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Latin modestus; see med- in Indo-European roots.]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

modest·ly adv.

modest [ˈmɒdɪst]

adj

1. having or expressing a humble opinion of oneself or one's accomplishments or abilities

2. reserved or shy modest behaviour

3. not ostentatious or pretentious

4. not extreme or excessive; moderate

5. decorous or decent

[via Old French from Latin modestus moderate, from modus mode]

modestly adv

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/modest

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MITH - with, through, by or MITHA is avoid

SKAT - lap = this will relate to English skirt, like lap, means the edge or border ie; Verb

skirt (third-person singular simple present skirts, present participle skirting, simple past and past participle skirted)

1.To be on or form the border of.

2.To move around or along the border of; to avoid the center of.

FIL - steep shore

The sentence could easily be about how Tunis came into the Flymar by skirting the steep shore - if you stuck to Frisian rather than Dutch.

Goodnight all. Back tomorrow to have another look at it.

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MITH - with, through, by or MITHA is avoid

SKAT - lap = this will relate to English skirt, like lap, means the edge or border ie; Verb

skirt (third-person singular simple present skirts, present participle skirting, simple past and past participle skirted)

1.To be on or form the border of.

2.To move around or along the border of; to avoid the center of.

FIL - steep shore

The sentence could easily be about how Tunis came into the Flymar by skirting the steep shore - if you stuck to Frisian rather than Dutch.

Goodnight all. Back tomorrow to have another look at it.

You put nouns before their adjectives, and so on.

That is not what happens in the OLB.

If we use your alternative translations for these words, we get a sentence that's all gibberish.

Like I said: do not just use some dictionary, but also use rules of syntax.

Now make a sentence using your translations, and you will see what I mean. It won't work. You will have to distort the rules of syntax, or else you won't get it done.

+++

EDIT:

Hmmm... I think I see now what's the problem here, heh.

It's all because I once said I can use Dutch to translate the OLB.

But I can.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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I think it were the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe with a Zoroastrian/Iranian religion (Mithras) who spread the wear of that hat all over Europe in the first centuries AD:

Alans%20against%20romans.jpg

Alanorum Saxonum Regio

18037.jpg

Their spread across Europe, Asia, and Africa:

Alans_in_Africa.jpg

"Who has done this before is my first appreciation."

Overwijn did, in 1941.

I have a signed copy of the second edition (1951), a tome, of his book.

Mind you: there was no internet back then.

.

Very good possible & thanks for the info.

Schrieck is hammering again about the Alani (he's becoming predictable :-)

-> following Lucianus' Toxari and Schrieck the European Sarmatians have Scytisch resemblance (Schrieck declares: Hael-annen (Warriors, Crijghers))

same linguistic link as in

-> Ga-Haelen (Gauls, Galliers) -> Go Get

-> Haelen Gaen, Krijgen, Kriegers -> Der Krieg

-> Guerre-mannen (Germani)

-> Halen-mannen (Alemani)

If on the field, het camp (vandaar het 'kamp', to where they gather, ver-garen, gaer-mannen, auf deutsch still in the hearing 'si kammen apf', kam-apf, all connected) -> so where si campen en met de boog Schythen.

(Campania has nice fields btw) Wannes Van de Velde likes the Skythe for sport too.

To win, is becoming the Kamp-i-hon (he who is the highest in the field).

The highest in the field is also the champignon, jawel onze champienjon (die steekt erbovenuit met z'n mhotske).

Look the champ's head!

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You put nouns before their adjectives, and so on.

That is not what happens in the OLB.

If we use your alternative translations for these words, we get a sentence that's all gibberish.

Like I said: do not just use some dictionary, but also use rules of syntax.

Now make a sentence using your translations, and you will see what I mean. It won't work. You will have to distort the rules of syntax, or else you won't get it done.

+++

EDIT:

Hmmm... I think I see now what's the problem here, heh.

It's all because I once said I can use Dutch to translate the OLB.

But I can.

.

That's great - but you should be using FRISIAN.

Whatever, you all go put 'he lunged into the Flymar with his treasures'...

You are all doing the OLB an injustice by translating it into Dutch, which is probably why their is so many errors in it in the first place.

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MITH - with, through, by or MITHA is avoid

SKAT - lap = this will relate to English skirt, like lap, means the edge or border ie; Verb

skirt (third-person singular simple present skirts, present participle skirting, simple past and past participle skirted)

1.To be on or form the border of.

2.To move around or along the border of; to avoid the center of.

FIL - steep shore

The sentence could easily be about how Tunis came into the Flymar by skirting the steep shore - if you stuck to Frisian rather than Dutch.

Goodnight all. Back tomorrow to have another look at it.

MITH AL THI SKÀT FÍL TÜNIS THÀT FLÍ-MAR BINNA

In the context of the rest of the sentences, I'd say SKAT is treasure, what's wrong with Sandbachs translation anyway?

SKAT is used for treasure with the Buda part too.

FIL is like a full supply as well as other things

German

Etymology

From Old High German filu (“many”), from Proto-Germanic *felu. More at fele.

viel (comparative mehr, superlative am meisten)

1.much, a lot

BINNA is inside

SKAT FIL imo is saying he had alot of treasure.

Sandbach: Teunis sailed to the Flymeer with all this treasure.

Into should be there (binna) as should many/alot (fil). With the many treasures Tunis entered the Flymar - like I was first saying.

The last part is: that Flymar binna = the Flymar entered - entered the Flymar - whatever you think about syntax, many times it is being changed around to make sense - as the sentence stands it says 'the Flymar entered'. The verb is after the noun.

Edited by The Puzzler
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Thi grêvaman fon Westflyland waerth thrvch al thessa thinga bigâstered,

The Grevetman was through all these things enchanted (rough translation)

The verb is after the noun again.

which so enchanted the Grevetman of Westflyland

but here it's been reversed, as can be found all through.

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Sandbach 1876, p.29]

Under all circumstances the mother must take care that her children,

that is, Frya's people,

shall remain as temperate as possible.

This is her most important duty,

and it is the duty of all of us to help her in performing it.

imo it should be modest.

----------------

The Frisian word skat in the OLB is probably most related to Danish: (Danish skat,)

Old English

Etymology

From Germanic: cognate with Old Frisian skett ‘money, cattle’, Old Saxon skat (Dutch schat), Old High German scaz (German Schatz ‘treasure’), Old Norse skattr (Danish skat, Norwegian skatt),

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sceatt

There's that cash cow again.

---------------------

How ironic...

Swedish

Noun

skatt c

1.tax (income tax)

2.treasure; something of great value

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/skatt

---------------------

I could probably read it better if I knew Old English.

Edited by The Puzzler
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That's great - but you should be using FRISIAN.

Whatever, you all go put 'he lunged into the Flymar with his treasures'...

You are all doing the OLB an injustice by translating it into Dutch, which is probably why their is so many errors in it in the first place.

No, I am using Old Frisian, but most often I can use (old-ish) Dutch like you can often use Old English and read a sentence.

When I check the Old Frisian dictionary, it shows I am right.

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Thi grêvaman fon Westflyland waerth thrvch al thessa thinga bigâstered,

The Grevetman was through all these things enchanted (rough translation)

The verb is after the noun again.

which so enchanted the Grevetman of Westflyland

but here it's been reversed, as can be found all through.

Thi grêvaman fon Westflyland waerth thrvch al thessa thinga bigâstered

De grevetman van Westflyland werd door al deze dingen begeesterd.

That's how it runs in Dutch: same syntax.

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MITH AL THI SKÀT FÍL TÜNIS THÀT FLÍ-MAR BINNA

In the context of the rest of the sentences, I'd say SKAT is treasure, what's wrong with Sandbachs translation anyway?

SKAT is used for treasure with the Buda part too.

FIL is like a full supply as well as other things

German

Etymology

From Old High German filu (“many”), from Proto-Germanic *felu. More at fele.

viel (comparative mehr, superlative am meisten)

1.much, a lot

BINNA is inside

SKAT FIL imo is saying he had alot of treasure.

Sandbach: Teunis sailed to the Flymeer with all this treasure.

Into should be there (binna) as should many/alot (fil). With the many treasures Tunis entered the Flymar - like I was first saying.

The last part is: that Flymar binna = the Flymar entered - entered the Flymar - whatever you think about syntax, many times it is being changed around to make sense - as the sentence stands it says 'the Flymar entered'. The verb is after the noun.

MITH AL THI SKÀT FÍL TÜNIS THÀT FLÍ-MAR BINNA

Met heel die schat viel Tunis het Flymeer binnen.

With all that treasure Tunis entered (or lunged into) the Fly Lake.

If SKAT FIL means a 'lot of treasure', you get gibberish.

The Verb here is VIEL BINNen or FIL BINNA, or 'dropped into' (or whatever is the right English translation).

If you would make a literal translation in English, you'd get: "With all that treasure dropped Tunis the Fly Lake into."

b-in-n-a 121, afries (=OLd Frisian)., Adv.: nhd. binnen, innerhalb, drinnen; ne. inside (Adv.); ÜG.:

lat. infrõ W 2, W 4, W 5, L 9, L 23, AB (82, 6); Vw.: s. a-, thÁ-r-; Hw.: vgl. ae.

biinnan, mnl. binnen; Q.: R, S, B, E, H, W, W 2, W 4, W 5, L 9, L 23, AB (82,

6); W.: nfries. binne; L.: Hh 9b, Rh 641b

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-B.pdf

BINNA is an adverb, and part of the verb (past tense, 3d person singular) FIL BINNA. The complete verb, unconjugated is "BINNAFALLA".

Ik kom het huis binnen

I enter the house.

I come inside the house.

The complete verb is 'binnenkomen' or 'to come inside'

But in a sentence 'binnen' get's separated from 'komen', just like happens in Old and Modern Frisian.

Only in a past participle (or unconjugated) the parts stick together "binnengekomen". In Dutch a -ge- is added, but not in Frisian.

+++++

EDIT:

De Vikingen vielen Europa binnen (vielen = past tense, 3d person plural)

http://www.scholieren.com/werkstukken/6509

The Vikings invaded Europe.

But the verb 'binnenvallen' is also often used in a figurative sense, when some guests unexpectedly and/or rather enthousiastically enter your house in a way it feels like an 'invasion'.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Montanus de Haan Hettema

Bolsward 28 Januar 1796 ~ 18 December 1873 Leeuwarden

6670587-L.jpg

friend of

Pieter Jansz Ott

Wognum 1786 ~ 1837 Abbekerk

Westfriesland

What does that mean? Should we forget about the Over de Linden family or Haverschmidt or Halbertsma or Verwijs, and start focussing on the Ott family??

Damn, I knew it, LOL.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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MITH AL THI SKÀT FÍL TÜNIS THÀT FLÍ-MAR BINNA

Met heel die schat viel Tunis het Flymeer binnen.

With all that treasure Tunis entered (or lunged into) the Fly Lake.

If SKAT FIL means a 'lot of treasure', you get gibberish.

.

No you don't.

I guess it depends if you read it in Dutch or German.

Dutch

Verb

viel

1.singular past indicative of vallen. = ------ fall, tumble (English fall)

Etymology

From Old High German filu (“many”), from Proto-Germanic *felu. More at fele.

Adjective

viel (comparative mehr, superlative am meisten)

1.much, a lot

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/viel

With all the treasure fell Tunis the Flymar into.

SO, you say, With all the treasure Tunis 'fell/tumbled into' the Flymar...?

I dunno.

--------------------

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fall

Possibly then, entered sounds best to me, or as Sandbach has, sailed.

Edited by The Puzzler
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No you don't.

I guess it depends if you read it in Dutch or German.

Dutch

Verb

viel

1.singular past indicative of vallen. = ------ fall, tumble (English fall)

Etymology

From Old High German filu (“many”), from Proto-Germanic *felu. More at fele.

Adjective

viel (comparative mehr, superlative am meisten)

1.much, a lot

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/viel

With all the treasure fell Tunis the Flymar into.

SO, you say, With all the treasure Tunis 'fell/tumbled into' the Flymar...?

I dunno.

You know what I mean when you construct a CORRECT German sentence using your translations.

The Germans, in past and present, put it like this: "viele Schätze", or in Dutch "vele schatten". The Germans don't say "Schätze viele".

And if you read my edit in my former post, you will know that "FIL BINNA" is used in the figurative sense. It's an exaggeration of how enthousiastic these people came back with all their treasures.

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You know what I mean when you construct a CORRECT German sentence using your translations.

The Germans, in past and present, put it like this: "viele Schätze", or in Dutch "vele schatten". The Germans don't say "Schätze viele".

And if you read my edit in my former post, you will know that "FIL BINNA" is used in the figurative sense. It's an exaggeration of how enthousiastic these people came back with all their treasures.

Yeah, I see the way the sentence works. Fell into - maybe 'entered' then is most suitable imo.

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"Mit allen diesen Schätzen fiel Tunis dem Flymeer nach innen."

Better idea: let's see how a Herman Wirth translated it into German.

EDIT:

Found it: "Mit allen diesen Schätzen lief Tünis in das Flymeer ein"

.

Edited by Abramelin
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What does that mean? Should we forget about the Over de Linden family or Haverschmidt or Halbertsma or Verwijs, and start focussing on the Ott family??

My point is, that if I would use Jensma's method (which is basically the same as Knul's), focusing on 'coincidences' and ignoring contradictions, I can provide even better proof that Hettema, Sandbach and my g-g-grandfather made the OLB.

One needs to establish first why OLB cannot be authentic.

They have been busy examining the paper for several years now!

The two articles that have been published about that are extremely vague.

If it was really from the 19th century, they could prove that within one week, with the existing modern techniques.

This thread has shown that the 'language is too modern'-argument does not stand either.

It is just different from what we would have expected, based on the few sources that we have (written by Latin-schooled monks).

Instead we should compare more with rural dialects, old oral traditions.

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I tried to go to the official Dutch website about the OLB (with all those photos of the pages from the OLB), to see if they have added anything about the investigation of the paper of the manuscript.

It appears to be gone.... http://www.oeralindaboek.nl/

Now look at the links at the end of this Wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda_Book

You will see there is a link to a page of Knul's website, the page with the scans of those photos.

What's going on here??

.

Edited by Abramelin
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What's going on here??

Very odd indeed.

I'll ask Tresoar.

Maybe Knul knows.

He's been queit lately.

Now I'm glad to have copied all pages in high-res colour to my hard disk!

Edited by Otharus
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Very odd indeed.

I'll ask Tresoar.

Maybe Knul knows.

He's been queit lately.

Now I'm glad to have copied all pages in high-res colour to my hard disk!

I should have saved them too. This sucks. I prefer to use/look at the photos, not the B/W scans.

Knul (?) added a link to his own site in January:

(cur | prev) 19:10, 27 January 2012‎ 83.7.245.127 (talk)‎ . . (11,958 bytes) (-10)‎ . . (non-flash facsimile equivalent http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html non-flash facsimile equivalent) (undo)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oera_Linda_Book&action=history

The IP addres says it's from Poland....

But with a proxy server you can pretend you are posting from Vietnam.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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I should have saved them too. This sucks. I prefer to use/look at the photos, not the B/W scans.

If the site doesn't come back, I'll put them on my blog.

The Dutch wiki still links to it.

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If the site doesn't come back, I'll put them on my blog.

The Dutch wiki still links to it.

The link is even still on their own site:

http://www2.tresoar.nl/digicollectie/index.php?zoek=oera

+++

EDIT:

If you put all the copies on your blog your blog will take forever to load.

.

Edited by Abramelin
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