[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[cormac mac airt]

Probably not, but please visit the following website and then still tell us that the idea of a flood in 2200 BC is so absurd:

Ive read the site as well as another one here:

The Umm al Binni Structures and Bronze Age Catastrophes by Duane W. Hamacher

Thus far there has been NO on-site analysis of this alleged impact crater, nor has evidence been found that there was any effect on regional cities such as Ur, Eridu, Lagash, Larsa or Umma within the archaeological record dating to c.2200 BC.

Archeological findings show that in the space of a few centuries, many of the first sophisticated civilizations disappeared. The Old Kingdom in Egypt fell into ruin. The Akkadian culture of Iraq, thought to be the world's first empire, collapsed. The settlements of ancient Israel, gone. Mesopotamia, Earth's original breadbasket, dust.

There is no reason to believe that one, comparatively minor, impactor (assuming it was one) was responsible for events that happened over the space of a few centuries. Many of the ancient settlements in Israel were long gone well before this event is alleged to have happened. And Mesopotamia was not dust as stated, but continued for quite some time afterwards. Someone is out to make this the singular answer for everything, it seems.

Assuming Gilgamesh was a real ruler, then the Epic of Gilgamesh would detail his exploits circa 2600 BC and therefore has no bearing on an event from 400 years later.

Is it possible? Yes. Is there any evidence, currently, to show its true. None!

cormac

Edited September 5, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[Alewyn]

I’ve read the site as well as another one here:

The Umm al Binni Structures and Bronze Age Catastrophes by Duane W. Hamacher

Thus far there has been NO on-site analysis of this alleged impact crater, nor has evidence been found that there was any effect on regional cities such as Ur, Eridu, Lagash, Larsa or Umma within the archaeological record dating to c.2200 BC.

There is no reason to believe that one, comparatively minor, impactor (assuming it was one) was responsible for events that happened over “the space of a few centuries”. Many of the ancient settlements in Israel were long gone well before this event is alleged to have happened. And Mesopotamia was not dust as stated, but continued for quite some time afterwards. Someone is out to make this the singular answer for everything, it seems.

Assuming Gilgamesh was a real ruler, then the Epic of Gilgamesh would detail his exploits circa 2600 BC and therefore has no bearing on an event from 400 years later.

Is it possible? Yes. Is there any evidence, currently, to show it’s true. None!

cormac

You seem to miss the point altogether. The website you quote examines the Umm al Binni structure as a possible Bolide impact site. What is not even questioned is the 2200 BC event. These scientists accept the 2200 BC disaster as fact. They obviously have sufficient evidence to prove that a catastrophic event occured at the time. Their studies now revolve around what could have caused the event i.e. how many bolide impacts from a fragmented comet may have struck earth and the extend of the damage.

You and others on this site categorically stated that there is no evidence of a disaster and accompanying floods in 2200 BC as I stated in my book.

If you read the source you provided very carefully you will see that the results of possible impacts match the Oera Linda Book's description exactly - as does the date.

For the umpteenth time I ask the question: "If the Oera Linda Book is a hoax (written by a preacher and an artisan without tertiary qualifications) how did they manage to get this right long before it was discovered? My book is full of facts that is stated in the OLB and only subsequently discovered or verified.

[cormac mac airt]

Probably not, but please visit the following website and then still tell us that the idea of a flood in 2200 BC is so absurd:

The website I quoted was the space.com site YOU linked and says that ancient art and scientific data all seem to intersect at around 2350 B.C. which is 150 years before the idea of a flood in 2200 BC that youre claiming. Another section of the same site says Napier has tied the possible event to a cooling of the climate, measured in tree rings, that ran from 2354-2345 B.C. Again, not relevant to your 2200 BC flood date. And it's still not proven as an impact crater.

What is not even questioned is the 2200 BC event. These scientists accept the 2200 BC disaster as fact. They obviously have sufficient evidence to prove that a catastrophic event occured at the time.

Yes the time of the event IS questioned, read it again. The article at your space.com site only mentions the 2200 date in regards to the Epic of Gilgamesh story as well as the Curse of Akkad, while never claiming that the event actually happened then. They even start the article out with Biblical stories, apocalyptic visions, ancient art and scientific data all seem to intersect at around 2350 B.C., when one or more catastrophic events wiped out several advanced societies in Europe, Asia and Africa. That ought to be plain as day, they dont know exactly what happened or where, but theyre still looking.

You and others on this site categorically stated that there is no evidence of a disaster and accompanying floods in 2200 BC as I stated in my book.

Because there isn't and both the space.com article and the article from Sharad Master, himself, both say you're wrong.

Sharad Master and Tsehaie Woldais 2004 article The Umm al Binni Structure, In the Mesopotamian Marshlands of Southern Iraq, As a Postulated Late Holocene Meteorite Impact Crater: Geological Settings and New Landsat ETM+ and ASTER Satellite Imagery says in part:

The postulate that the structure was formed by a Recent bolide impact can account for the simple bowl-shaped geometry with markedly polygonal outline, and the apparent rim and annulus around the structure in pre-1993 imagery. Master (2001, 2002) speculated on the possible consequences of this structure, if it was indeed of impact origin, for Bronze-Age Mesopotamia, and suggested that it might possibly be linked with an ~2350 BCE ash layer found at Tell Leilan (Syria) and in sea-sediment core off Oman, re-interpreted by Marie-Agnes Courty (1998) to be an impact fallout layer.

Again, even "if" its proven to be an impact crater, Master doesnt even claim a 2200 BC date. It hasnt even been proven yet and what, somehow youre right and the discoverer is wrong? WOW!!

Since you questioned my understanding of the article you linked and your own understanding of same has shown to be horribly wrong, I have to question the accuracy of your book.

Edit for clarity.

cormac

Edited September 6, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[Alewyn]

The website I quoted was the space.com site YOU linked and says that ancient art and scientific data all seem to intersect at around 2350 B.C. which is 150 years before the idea of a flood in 2200 BC that youre claiming. Another section of the same site says Napier has tied the possible event to a cooling of the climate, measured in tree rings, that ran from 2354-2345 B.C. Again, not relevant to your 2200 BC flood date. And it's still not proven as an impact crater.

Yes the time of the event IS questioned, read it again. The article at your space.com site only mentions the 2200 date in regards to the Epic of Gilgamesh story as well as the Curse of Akkad, while never claiming that the event actually happened then. They even start the article out with Biblical stories, apocalyptic visions, ancient art and scientific data all seem to intersect at around 2350 B.C., when one or more catastrophic events wiped out several advanced societies in Europe, Asia and Africa. That ought to be plain as day, they dont know exactly what happened or where, but theyre still looking.

Because there isn't and both the space.com article and the article from Sharad Master, himself, both say you're wrong.

Sharad Master and Tsehaie Woldais 2004 article The Umm al Binni Structure, In the Mesopotamian Marshlands of Southern Iraq, As a Postulated Late Holocene Meteorite Impact Crater: Geological Settings and New Landsat ETM+ and ASTER Satellite Imagery says in part:

Again, even "if" its proven to be an impact crater, Master doesnt even claim a 2200 BC date. It hasnt even been proven yet and what, somehow youre right and the discoverer is wrong? WOW!!

Since you questioned my understanding of the article you linked and your own understanding of same has shown to be horribly wrong, I have to question the accuracy of your book.

Edit for clarity.

cormac

Are you and I reading the same article?

Herewith some quotes from it:

Archaeological excavations of sites dating to 2200 BCE and 1200 BCE in the Middle East, Asia Minor, and south-east Europe provide clear evidence that a large-scale disaster affected Bronze Age civilizations.

Excavations of sites dating to 1200 BCE and 2200 BCE show evidence of regional destruction. It has been hypothesized that one or both catastrophes were the result of a bolide impact.

The numerical impact models (Marcus et al. 2004) are used to determine if the alleged Umm al Binni impact could account for the regional destruction, ranging from 100 km (62 miles) to 1,000 km (600 miles), found in 1200 BCE or 2200 BCE.

Assuming the Umm al Binni structure was caused by a bolide impact and dates to approximately 4,000, ±1,000 years, it can (be) determined whether or not the impact alone was responsible for the destruction of surrounding regions varying from 100-1,000 km (62-620 miles) from the site, corresponding to either the 2200 BCE or 1200 BCE catastrophe, by utilizing a numerical impact model developed by Marcus et al. (2004).

According to Courty (1997), abrupt climate changes current with the 2200 BCE catastrophe can be traced to large amounts of fine sized millimetric fragments of black, vesicular, amorphous material made of silicates with Mg-Ca carbonate and…

Additional support comes from Benny Peiser (2001) of John Moores University in Liverpool, UK, who presents comparative stratigraphy of late Holocene sediments and destruction layers around the world. He notes several climatic, seismic activity, and sea level changes around 2200 ±200 BCE

Other impact structures may be related to Umm al Binni and may provide evidence of a fragmented comet as the origin of the bolides, and the cause of regional destruction noted during the ~2200 BCE period of the Bronze Age.

BTW. The above is from the source YOU provided.

Edited September 6, 2010 by Alewyn

[The Puzzler]

I think Athena can be traced back to an ancient sea Goddess as described in the book. After much research I found her in Libya very early, with the traits of guiding ships on a cloud which is how she is described in the book. Her name can mean sea, water as does Neith. Athena might be derived from the word Neith. Neitha or such can turn into Athena but the Greeks knew her as nous, mind.

As for floods, what there does appear to be c. 2200BC is a drying up and famine from no rain, Akkad falls like Old Kingdom and areas of dry became deserts, like the Sahara and in Mesopotamia, famine everywhere and drying, excess heat but I don't really see any floods, no matter how hard I look.

There does seem to be the one mentioned in Sumerian legends that date to 2900BC or there abouts. The Chinese one dated to 2350BC originally has been put back to the Sumerian date. Not saying it's a given, but just saying, it's been pointed out:

The translator of the 1904 edition dated the Chinese deluge to 2348 BCE, calculating that this was the same year as the biblical flood[4]. In fact, it is considered by many historians that the Mideast flood legend (including the biblical flood) was erroneously linked to a flood mentioned in the Sumerian king list, which was actually dated to 2900 BCE.

In saying that, there does some to be a climate event c. 2200BC that affected the Globe causing all the aridity and heavy rains but to me this seems to be in line with the Ipuwer and the Exodus events, so not the Flood, as such.

How about this one as the original Flood story...

In Norse mythology, there are two separate deluges. According to the Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson, the first occurred at the dawn of time before the world was formed. Ymir, the first giant, was killed by the god Odin and his brothers Vili and Ve, and when he fell, so much blood flowed from his wounds that it drowned almost the entire race of giants with the exception of the frost giant Bergelmir and his wife. They escaped in a ship and survived, becoming the progenitors of a new race of giants. Ymir's body was then used to form the earth while his blood became the sea.

The second, in the Norse mythological time cycle, is destined to occur in the future during the final battle between the gods and giants, known as Ragnarök. During this apocalyptic event, Jormungandr, the great World Serpent that lies beneath the sea surrounding Midgard, the realm of mortals, will rise up from the watery depths to join the conflict, resulting in a catastrophic flood that will drown the land. However, following Ragnarök the earth will be reborn and a new age of humanity will begin.

The mythologist Brian Branston noted the similarities between this legend and an incident described in the Anglo-Saxon epic poem Beowulf, which had traditionally been associated with the biblical flood, so there may have been a corresponding incident in the broader Germanic mythology as well as in Anglo-Saxon mythology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth

In the Sumerian King List what is overlooked is the reign lengths they say the Kings were, that held Kingship that descended from Heaven. From when the Flood swept over as it says to the first King we have evidence of at around 2600BC, you have over 10,000 years.

Why does everyone conveniently forget that?

If each one of these Kings is not a MAN but a heavenly body that is in place reigning over them, maybe the time frame can seem more appropriate and their Kings and the Flood went back for a lot longer than a local one they found some sediment in river deposits locally dating 2900BC.

The true flood could have been at the dawn of time just like the Sumer King List has it, (when Atlantis sunk) not a few hundred years before Abraham...

imo as usual.

Edited September 6, 2010 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

Alewyn,

In post #1126, I quoted from the article YOU called me to task on in post #1124.

cormac

Edited September 6, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

In post # 1126, I quoted from the article YOU called me to task on in post #1124.

cormac

You know me, I change my mind alot.

I just realised it actually that it could be the flood c. 9000BC (well, it would actually go back furthur I think by rough adding) IF we look at the dates in the King List as being a possible correct interpretation of NOT men but stars or heavenly beings as their actual 'kings'.

Jushur as you call him, for a start reigned 1200 years as King after the post-diluvial flood, ??? so, what if Jushur wasn't actual a person but a celestial body, and so forth - until by the time we see Gilgamesh, the reigns sit pretty well with our time spans, the men Kings start. Possibly why Noah and all are so old, they seem to have children as a regular age, like around 25-30 but live really long. It would take some time to people the Earth again...

[cormac mac airt]

“Archaeological excavations of sites dating to 2200 BCE and 1200 BCE in the Middle East, Asia Minor, and south-east Europe provide clear evidence that a large-scale disaster affected Bronze Age civilizations.”

So, two events over a 1000 year timeframe in multiple regions. Doesn't say anything about a flood over that same period, nor specifically c.2200 BC.

Excavations of sites dating to 1200 BCE and 2200 BCE show evidence of regional destruction. It has been hypothesized that one or both catastrophes were the result of a bolide impact.”

Still unevidenced, yet also still two events over a 1000 year timeframe.

The numerical impact models (Marcus et al. 2004) are used to determine if the alleged Umm al Binni impact could account for the regional destruction, ranging from 100 km (62 miles) to 1,000 km (600 miles), found in 1200 BCE or 2200 BCE.”

Still over the same timeframe and even Hamacher's article shows that the Umm al Binni impactor couldn't have been solely responsible.

Assuming the Umm al Binni structure was caused by a bolide impact and dates to approximately 4,000, ±1,000 years, it can (be) determined whether or not the impact alone was responsible for the destruction of surrounding regions varying from 100-1,000 km (62-620 miles) from the site, corresponding to either the 2200 BCE or 1200 BCE catastrophe, by utilizing a numerical impact model developed by Marcus et al. (2004).”

First they have to verify that it is indeed an impactor site, also that there is evidence for at least some level of destruction to nearby cities dating to either timeframe. So far, neither has happened.

According to Courty (1997), abrupt climate changes current with the 2200 BCE catastrophe can be traced to large amounts of fine sized millimetric fragments of black, vesicular, amorphous material made of silicates with Mg-Ca carbonate and"

Which is still not evidence it happened at Umm al Binni and definitely not that Umm al Binni is responsible for two different events, separated by around 1000 years.

Additional support comes from Benny Peiser (2001) of John Moores University in Liverpool, UK, who presents comparative stratigraphy of late Holocene sediments and destruction layers around the world. He notes several climatic, seismic activity, and sea level changes around 2200 ±200 BCE"

Nothing there specifically says it happened in Mesopotamia nor that Umm al Binni was responsible.

Other impact structures may be related to Umm al Binni and may provide evidence of a fragmented comet as the origin of the bolides, and the cause of regional destruction noted during the ~2200 BCE period of the Bronze Age.”

This remains to be proven and is still not evidence for a flood c.2200 BC.

cormac

Edited September 6, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

I reckon this Christian Reckoning is suss.

The Jews who had the story of the Flood were not Christians.

Jewish folktales were those stories usually containing incidents of a superhuman character, spread among the folk either by traditions from their elders or by communication from strangers. Folktales are characterized by the presence of unusual personages (dwarfs, giants, fairies, ghosts, etc.), by the sudden transformation of men into beasts and vice versa, or by other unnatural incidents (flying horses, a hundred years' sleep, and the like). Of a similar kind are the drolls of the nursery, generally consisting of a number of simple "sells." A number of haggadic stories bear folktale characteristics, especially those relating to Og, King of Bashan, which have the same exaggerations as have the "Lügenmärchen" of modern German folktales[8] There are signs that a certain number of fables were adopted by the Rabbis either from Greek or, indirectly, from Persian and Indian sources.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_mythology

Edited September 6, 2010 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

Definitely not my night for using the editor, Alewyn, but suffice it to say there is nothing in either article to show which locations were being represented in the 2200 BC and 1200 BC 'catastrophes', nor how it was determined that singular events were responsible for those catastrophes happening, nor in what stages those locations were in when these events allegedly occurred. That's quite alot of speculation riding on one or more bolides that haven't even been proven yet.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

This gives the Flood Story as being a crossing of the sun through the constellations, with pictures, it says Noah's flood begins in Aquarius in the Age of Taurus, so that would be from 4300BC-2143BC.

The legend of Noahs Flood begins in Aquarius during the astrological age of Taurus, and follows the sun path across the ecliptic from Aquarius to Pisces to Aries to Taurus to Gemini.

I dunno though, the idea sounds good but I wonder if it's possible a similar combination could be found much earlier.

---So the gods came down and confused the language by scattering them all over the earth.

6And the LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; and nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them.

7Come, let us go down, and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." (Gen. 11:6-7)

Readers might reflect on the moral significance of this little fable. Like the story of Adam and Eve, it reflects on the attitude of the priests to preserve their authority by keeping the people ignorant and confused.

http://www.usbible.com/Astrology/noahs_flood.htm

The last bit reminded me of what the Oera Linda book told us about the priests just to stay on topic somewhat..

Edited September 6, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Leonardo]

Verifyable at this stage? Probably not, but please visit the following website and then still tell us that the idea of a flood in 2200 BC is so absurd:

I have absolutely no doubt that, in 2200BCE, somewhere in the world, a flood occurred.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/planetearth/comet_bronzeage_011113-1.html

Herewith an extract:

"Increasingly, some scientists suspect comets and their associated meteor storms were the cause. History and culture provide clues: Icons and myths surrounding the alleged cataclysms persist in cults and religions today and even fuel terrorism.

Which goes to show the pervasiveness of belief, rather than rational thought. Ever since the K-T discoveries, cosmic impacts have been the "go to" cause for any ancient catastrophe. Why?

Because they are exciting! Spectacular! Make great headlines!

As you have stated here...

Archeological findings show that in the space of a few centuries, many of the first sophisticated civilizations disappeared.

The disappearance of these cultures/civilisations happened over centuries. Impact events and catastrophic floods are very short-term events. Is it possible maybe one, or a couple, of these disappearances are linked with a flood/impactor? Yes, it's possible. The very early Mesopotamian mythology relates a tsunami/flood event, and this may be linked with an impactor. However, if this is the case, it happened many centuries (possibly over a millenium) before the period you are referring to. The retellings of this myth in later Semitic cultures (such as the Noahic flood) are not evidence of a similar event happening again.

The only natural events that have a persistent impact over centuries that we know of, are climactic events. It is far more likely the majority of cultures/civilisations collapsing during the early Bronze Age collapsed because of the stresses brought about by a changing climate. While these early Bronze Age societies were well-developed relative to other cultures of the era, they were still very vulnerable to climactic events due to the still-primitive agricultural practices on which their societies were based.

But civlisations collapsing because of a natural climactic cycle (such as one causing a centuries-long drought) isn't as 'headline worthy' as "Comet Strike Caused Noah's Flood!!!"

And a newly found 2-mile-wide crater in Iraq, spotted serendipitously in a perusal of satellite images, could provide a smoking gun. The crater's discovery, which was announced in a recent issue of the journal Meteoritics & Planetary Science, is a preliminary finding. Scientists stress that a ground expedition is needed to determine if the landform was actually carved out by an impact.

There is, in my opinion, no possibility that such a small impactor could have any serious effect on one of the early Bronze Age civilisations. If it directly impacted one of their cities, that city would be obliterated, but such a small impact would have a catastrophic effect only on a very local scale. If it impacted the ocean, any tsunami resultant from that impact would be small and not very energetic.

A number of scientists don't think so.

Mounting hard evidence collected from tree rings, soil layers and even dust that long ago settled to the ocean floor indicates there were widespread environmental nightmares in the Near East during the Early Bronze Age: Abrupt cooling of the climate, sudden floods and surges from the seas, huge earthquakes.

Dendochronology is only an indicator of climactic conditions. It cannot reveal anything about what caused those climactic conditions. So tree-ring data is not an indicator of floods, sea surges, earthquakes, etc.

I would also like to point out that an event written in mythology does not point to that event happening at the time it was written. The mythology of "catastrophe from the sky" is extremely ancient, probably predating the written mythology. It is quite possible those written myths are not telling of an event that has actually been witnessed by the writer, but only retelling an oral tradition of something that may have happened in that cultures distant past.

[Alewyn]

Definitely not my night for using the editor, Alewyn, but suffice it to say there is nothing in either article to show which locations were being represented in the 2200 BC and 1200 BC 'catastrophes', nor how it was determined that singular events were responsible for those catastrophes happening, nor in what stages those locations were in when these events allegedly occurred. That's quite alot of speculation riding on one or more bolides that haven't even been proven yet.

cormac

Cormac,

I am certain that you and I are both searching for the truth and I would also like to believe that we think for ourselves and do not accept everything at face value. I also know that the claims made in the Oera Linda Book are so outrageous that it is almost impossible to believe. For this reason many have chosen the easy way out and declared it a hoax. Now, if they are right, it is of no consequence. If, however, they are wrong, the consequences are enormous i.t.o science, history, etc.

I know this sound like a cliché, but I also started out convinced that the book is a figment of somebody’s mind. I wanted to prove to the person who introduced me to the book that the claims made in it are impossible. As I delved deeper and gathered more evidence, however, I realised more and more that the book is not just another fantasy.

If it was that simple to prove the book is true or otherwise, this debate would not have taken place now.

The Oera Linda Book claims that a massive natural disaster took place in ca 2200 BC and their world was destroyed. The first objective then is to determine whether there is any possibility that such an event may have taken place. I am certain that you will agree that it is possible, however remote. At this stage one is not really interested in conclusive proof but only in the probability that such an event may have taken place. If the answer is in the affirmative, one can move on.

The next step is to look at how the OLB describes the disaster. The amazing thing is that the description matches that of 21st century scientists to a tee. How could anyone in the 19th century fabricate such an accurate picture unless they have actually witnessed it? I have done this with almost all the claims made in the book and slowly but surely a picture emerged; a picture that I am convinced is fairly close to the truth.

On the other hand, if one flatly refuses to even consider that something may be possible, the status quo will not change. This was exactly the type of reasoning during the Middle Ages that caused the death by burning at the stakes of those who dared to say that the earth was not flat or not at the centre of the universe. Those who did the burning were convinced beyond any doubt that they were doing mankind a favour. How wrong they were.

One can liken the whole OLB saga to a detective story, or perhaps more specific, to a murder scene. There are lots of clues around but no body. None of the clues on their own may mean anything but, taken together, a likely scenario emerges. You will agree that to declare that no crime was committed because there is no body would be preposterous.

I admit that we do not have absolute proof (the smoking gun) that a world-wide disaster took place in 2200 BC, but the circumstantial and collaborative evidence are just too much to ignore. There is also more and more scientific evidence emerging that hints at the fact, but admittedly, nothing conclusive yet. Does this mean we have to sit back and wait for such evidence , i.e wait for the body to turn up by itself or do we have enough evidence to go to court?

I can assure you that I am not the first, nor will I be the last, to consider the OLB to be authentic.

[SlimJim22]

Hey Alewyn, so what do you think the world wide catastrophe was the result of?

Indus valley underwent great change around 2,200bce. It was also the time of the end of Akkad and the Old kingdom. Flood, drought, meteor impact or volcanic eruption. All are feasible to have far reaching consequences. Personally I am open to everything and I would not rule out the Electric Universe theory. In fact this to me could account for several disasters occuring simultaneously. What does the OLB say exactly in your opinion? What are the clues anyway? I no I should read it for myself but my energy is being spent elsewhere though I fully support your efforts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umm_al_Binni_lake

Edited September 6, 2010 by SlimJim22

[cormac mac airt]

You, in the least, implied (post #1124) that the site you linked (space.com) suggested a flood, it does not. The only thing it does suggest is that a bolide ‘might’ have impacted at Umm al Binni, although again no on-site analysis has ever been performed to verify said claim. You know as well as I do that science doesn’t give events a specific date (2200 BC) but includes a margin of error. Science says that something happened in the general timeframe of c.2200 BC, yet makes no determination yet as to what specifically that something was. Yet in your post #1127 you include, as a statement of fact, “and accompanying floods” which isn’t even in either article nor are they attested in same. Nor are they attested in the archaeological record at that time. This isn’t about your book. This is about you calling me down on two articles that do not say what you wish them to say. Personally, I could care less about the Oera Linda Book.

cormac

[SlimJim22]

Could the 2,200bce date be tied to the demise of the Maykop culture?

http://aratta.wordpress.com/2010/02/02/r1b-og-de-indoeuropeiske-sprakene/

Good article on genetics. Too long to take an extract but if you find something directly linked, please quote it.

[Alewyn]

Personally, I could care less about the Oera Linda Book.

cormac

Then stop wasting our time.

[The Puzzler]

On 21st October 2193BC in the sky we have right on the Zenith, Auriga, what's that? Who looks at Auriga...?

According to one Greek myth, Auriga represents Hephaestus, the blacksmith god, who was lame and invented the chariot so as to easily travel wherever he wanted. In another Greek myth, Auriga is said to represent Myrtilus, the charioteer of King Oenomaus, and who sabotaged the king's chariot.

More conventionally, Auriga is also identified as the mythological Greek hero Erichthonius of Athens, the chthonic son of Hephaestus that was raised by the goddess Athena. According to the anonymous writer of the composition Catasterisimi, Erichthonius was generally credited to be the inventor of the quadriga, the four-horse chariot, which he used in the battle against the usurper Amphictyon, the event that made Erichthonius the king of Athens. Erichthonius then dedicated himself to Athena and soon after, Zeus raised the Athenian hero into the night sky in honor of his ingenuity and heroic deeds.

It represents Erichthonius of Athens, when Zeus raised him to night sky. Hephaestus, charioteer, helmet, sounds like the inception of the Athenians against an usurper named Amphictyon, reminds me of the Amphictyony, as mentioned as being a Poseidon line to Atlantis.

October 21st 2193BC.

The bright star of Auriga is right on the Zenith, the charioteer. Capella, on the Zenith is the 3rd brightest star in the Northern Hemisphere and 6th in the sky.

In Hindu mythology, Capella was seen as the heart of Brahma, it seems to mean goat.

Capella appears to be a rich yellow color. It is the brightest star in the constellation Auriga, the sixth brightest star in the night sky, the third brightest star in the northern celestial hemisphere (after Arcturus and Vega), and the fourth brightest star visible to the naked eye from the latitude 40° N.[41] It is closer to the north celestial pole than any other first magnitude star[42] (Polaris is only second magnitude), It lies a few degrees to the northeast from the triangle of stars known as "The Kids" circumpolar north of 44°north: for the whole of the United Kingdom and Scandinavia, most of Canada and the northernmost United States, the star never sets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capella_(star)

This one is same date, 21st October 2193BC that Alewyn has chosen, from Helsinki, Finland to see what the very North was seeing at the North Celestial Pole. I liked this shot because it showed Draco in his form that I was saying about, that once he was a proper Dragon with a wing and you can clearly see his wing there, as Ursa Minor.

Last one, this one is same date 21st October 9450BC so you clearly see Heracles circling the Northern Celestial Pole while the crown of jewels, Corona is right next to him.

Right near Pluto but you can't see it on this picture is Saturn, right near the Celestial Pole, that sounded promising so I did a Google and found something...

".. a large planet stood above the North Pole

for a very long time."

The planet Saturn moved on a wildly elliptical path around the Sun in the remote past, entering the Solar System at very long intervals. Some time in the last 6 to 3 million years, perhaps after passing close to Jupiter, Saturn was placed in a much closer orbit around the Sun, very near Earth. From about 5800 BC, Saturn captured and held the Earth in a sub-polar position until 3100 BC, when Earth broke away.

"The evidence of myth which points to Saturn having once occupied a position above Earth's north polar regions is voluminous. There is not a race on Earth that has not preserved at least one account which states as much. According to this evidence, Saturn occupied a central position in the north celestial regions."

"It rotated, and rotated widely; but, other than that, it was immovable. It did not rise, it did not set. It merely became brighter and more glorious each night as the Sun set. This state of affairs seems to have lasted for ages. It is the one single dictum of the ancients from which all other beliefs are derived."

-- Dwardu Cardona (1982)

This article says 5800BC but I can see it closer at 9450BC. I'm not a follower of Velikovsky's work but it doesn't distract from the matter of reports of this large planet over the Pole.

Here is an extract from some of his work which I found interesting to say the least...

At about 11,000 or 10,000 BC, the Earth made electrical contact with Saturn, causing 1500 years of 'darkness' on Earth. The period of darkness is recognized by many of the world's creation myths, and were recorded in the illustrated glyphic books of Mesoamerica, references to which are made in Colonial period annals and documents. Climatalogically the period is identified as the Younger Dryas, when for some 1500 years Earth got as cold as it ever was.

Over the next 5000 years the orbit of Earth was progressively depressed and, between about 6000 BC and 3100 BC, Earth became part of a strange configuration of stacked planets, a condition which provided long summers and a mild climate in the northern hemisphere. Planets, including the giant Saturn, stood above the pole and close to Earth (but measured in millions of miles) and were taken by humans to be the Gods who supported them and for whose benefit they labored at agriculture and conducted trade.

Meanwhile, before Saturn lit up to achieve 'creation,' three plasmoids were seen far south of Earth for thousands of years (8300 BC to 4200 BC), connected to Saturn in the north via strands of brilliant arcs of electrons. These objects became the basis for all religion throughout the world, for they persisted in showing nightly, seasonally, and for three periods of hundreds or thousands of years. We would not know of any of this (except for mythological references), if an investigation of world-wide petroglyphs carved on mountain sides had not been undertaken by Anthony Peratt.

In about 4200 BC Saturn dropped its coma (which had obscured Saturn and its companion planets), and in effect went nova. In a mass expulsion Saturn produced its rings and a new satellite, Venus, and Saturn lit up like a sun. To the humans of Earth, who had not clearly seen the Sun for thousands of years because of the enclosing plasmasphere of Saturn, this was the start of creation, the start of time, and the first showing of 'the land' and its resident Gods, the satellites of Saturn. Saturn was called "the sun."

In 3147 BC this configuration broke apart, with the large planets moving far away from the Sun, and the smaller planets assigned to a series of overlapping 'inner' orbits. The breakup produced a stupendous flood of the waters which had been held at the north pole by the gravitational attraction of Saturn for 3000 years. Flood stories are ubiquitous, found in over 500 independent 'myths' -- all with the same coherent details. The survivors included people far inland, those living already on mountain slopes, and certainly the people of the Nile delta and northern Mesopotamia. The only recourse to a livelihood for many of the survivors was agriculture, which sprang up simultaneously in six unconnected regions of Earth.

The breakup was caused by Jupiter, which had circled the Sun as an inner planet up to that time. Jupiter was subsequently seen receding in the skies, surrounded by a coma three times the diameter of the Moon. From below its south pole extended a gigantic plasma outpouring, making it additionally look like a mountain. Above the planet were much smaller horn-like extensions. Looking like a person in a mantle, Jupiter was taken as the new God, the "younger." Jupiter retained its massive lower outpouring until it entered the asteroid belt in about 2950 BC, after which the coma changed its shape.

Soon after 3050 BC, Mars (and Mercury) appeared near Earth for about 300 years. Mars apparently overrode the Earth's orbit and was repeatedly brought into plasma contact with Earth, looking like a squat mountain which circled the Earth's polar region -- the visual effect of the rotation of the Earth. Mars was now held to be the God in charge of Earth, Horus of the Egyptians.

This lasted to about 2700 BC or 2750 BC, after which the regular visits of Mars ended, its elliptical orbit perhaps rotating away from Earth or changed somewhat with the repeated interactions with Earth. It is in the next century that people throughout the world start building pyramids in imitation of the mountain of Mars, almost simultaneously everywhere -- in Egypt, Mesopotamia, England, China, and in the Andies of South America.

We have recorded histories of all these events, especially in Mesoamerica. There are accurate descriptions of the rings and the number of satellites of Saturn, the bands and satellites of Jupiter, and the scarred surface and satellites of Mars, all dating from remote antiquity and spanning cultures worldwide. The Egyptians produced schematic images of the original configuration of Saturn and its planets, and have a record of early close passes by Mars. Mesopotamians also produced images of planets, graphically showing, for example, all the satellites of Jupiter. The Maya (from Olmec sources) have an undated record of the planetary interactions from long before 3100 BC, and a dated record of later events which matches what can be gleaned from Eastern Mediterranean sources. India has similar recollections of the events extending over millions of lines of poetry. The Quiche Maya "Popol Vuh" and pages of the Maya "Books of the Chilam Balam" makes casual references to the period of 7000 years ago. One page of the "Chilam Balam" seems to record the Saturnian planets as seen 17,000 years ago.

Over the next 2500 years (3100 BC to 685 BC) the inner planets interfere with Earth at intervals, although very infrequently. There were three major incidents. The damage generally was localized in latitude although, for example, the continuous lightning strike of ca 1500 BC encircled the globe.

As recalled by nearly all peoples, on all the continents, the most terrifying incident was one which happened in 2349 BC, when an alignment with Venus (20 million miles away), produced an Earth shock in the northern hemisphere, tilting the Earth's axis away from the Sun temporarily, and tilting up the equatorial rings of the Earth. This was followed perhaps six hours later by the arrival of a massive plasmoid lightning strike from Venus which hit the rings almost broadside, followed somewhat later by lesser bolts, recorded in Mesoamerica and China. [note 2]

The electrical contact with Venus turned the equatorial rings blood red and caused the destruction of the rings. Lightning bolts arced over from the Earth's ionosphere layers and the lower equatorial plasma toroid (the Van Allen belt). The sky bled for three days, and all but a single ring disappeared. The cleared southern skies, previously obscured by the Earth's rings, revealed a multitude of stars for the first time, most notably the Pleiades.

The equatorial plasma toroid would have also arced over to the surface of Earth, producing months of torrential hurricanes. To humanity, the sea in the south sky had collapsed to Earth, and the event was almost everywhere understood as a second flood of stupendous proportion. The Bible recalls this event as the flood of Noah. But, to most peoples, the blood seen in the sky suggested the wholesale slaughter of humanity, and any number of raging goddesses or dragons were assigned to this event in mythology worldwide -- Kali, Tiamat, Anath, Sekhmet, Hathor. The event itself remains commemorated as the "Day of the Dead," and is almost universally associated with the culmination of the Pleiades in autumn. Echos of the fall of the rings and the surrounding circumstances continue to resound to this day in mythology and, to this day, in the narratives and philosophies of many religions. Many nations also date the start of all sensible history from this event.

Eight hundred years later, in 1492 BC, Venus again made electrical contact with Earth, causing a crushing repulsive blow in the central Pacific. The Pacific islands were wiped clean of any trace of humanity, except for the petroglyphs carved on every island thousands of years earlier. Coastal South America and Central America were inundated with water, leaving sea-water traces in lakes high in the Andies, and possibly causing a sudden rise in the coastal range of the Andies by thousands of feet. The blow was followed by an electrical arc traveling through the Pacific, the Indian Ocean, part of India, and, as the Earth's axis angled toward the Sun, following a path of increasingly higher latitude into the Mediterranean. Moses made his escape from Egypt during the turmoil. The event is recalled in mythology as the attack of the monster Typhon who is struck down by Zeus. The major result of the contact was a 20 percent increase in the orbit of the Earth -- the year went from 273 days to 360 days.

Another 700 years later (806 BC to 686 BC) it was Mars and Mercury which closed in on Earth with repeated electrical arc contacts at 15 year intervals, a major Earth shock in 747 BC, and a minor shock in 686 BC. The destruction of the 8th and 7th century BC was spread over areas from central Asia to the western Mediterranean. From the Persian plateau to Greece, in swats measuring more than 600 miles from end to end, hilltop citadels were destroyed by lightning strikes and quake-like convulsions, much more extensive than any earthquake, and buried under yards of carbonized material mixed with soil. These simultaneous destructions have been noted in the archaeological record. Some six series of simultaneous incidents have been dated which includes the events of the 8th and 7th century. Bolsena (Volsinii), a city in Italy, was obliterated by a lightning bolt measuring more than 5 miles in diameter, if we are to believe Pliny, who presents this from older Etruscan sources. Mars became the next sky God and set a tone for human conduct -- lasting to this day.

http://saturniancosmology.org/

Edited September 7, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

The mention above of red blood 2349BC in the sky here;

The equatorial plasma toroid would have also arced over to the surface of Earth, producing months of torrential hurricanes. To humanity, the sea in the south sky had collapsed to Earth, and the event was almost everywhere understood as a second flood of stupendous proportion. The Bible recalls this event as the flood of Noah. But, to most peoples, the blood seen in the sky suggested the wholesale slaughter of humanity, and any number of raging goddesses or dragons were assigned to this event in mythology worldwide -- Kali, Tiamat, Anath, Sekhmet, Hathor. The event itself remains commemorated as the "Day of the Dead," and is almost universally associated with the culmination of the Pleiades in autumn. Echos of the fall of the rings and the surrounding circumstances continue to resound to this day in mythology and, to this day, in the narratives and philosophies of many religions. Many nations also date the start of all sensible history from this event..

The clouded swirling skies which are found at the start of most creation myths are the result of Earth falling into a subpolar orbit with Saturn, coinciding with the start of the Hypsithermal period, 9500 BC. See Chapter 4, "The Younger Dryas," and Chapter 5, "Saturn and Archaeology," for a narrative and a consideration of the dynamics.

http://saturniancosmology.org/

reminded me of this, which I mentioned before could be a creation flood:

In Norse mythology, there are two separate deluges. According to the Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson, the first occurred at the dawn of time before the world was formed. Ymir, the first giant, was killed by the god Odin and his brothers Vili and Ve, and when he fell, so much blood flowed from his wounds that it drowned almost the entire race of giants with the exception of the frost giant Bergelmir and his wife. They escaped in a ship and survived, becoming the progenitors of a new race of giants. Ymir's body was then used to form the earth while his blood became the sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_myth

[SlimJim22]

Boy Puzz, you have been a busy bee. Exciting stuff and exactly the kind of thing I would've been looking for. We can't say the claims are 100% accurate but if even a fraction of it is true it puts prehistory in an exciting new light.

I noticed that due to the two major phases that it was mentioned of 'younger' Jupiter and I assume because of the changes Saturn's orbit underwent this was seen in a similar vain. This is inline with my view that Zeus and Poseidon may fit with shifting titles as ages change. Why Saturn was the original father or ruler of the gods and why the sun did not rise in prominence until the times of dynastic Egypt.

I also really like the idea of plasmoids as being represented by Zeus's thunderbolts. I had not heard of plasma toroids before so will look into them. Fascinating stuff all round but I'll have to read it a few times to take in all the possibilities.

Oh yeah, I read in the last link I posted that chariots originated with the Maykop culture in the Black sea. Coincides with the times you mentioned for Ariga.

[Abramelin]

Say Puzz, in one of your former posts on this page you quoted Dwardu Cardona.

I think you forgot to mention this guy thinks that the earth once orbited Saturn....

==

Anyway, what we all SHOULD be looking for is not only an impact around 2200BC that might have caused some flood and some volcanoes to erupt.... but an impact that caused the change of global weather patterns, global floodings, volcanoes erupting everywhere, some mythical 'homeland' to submerge...

............... AND ..................

.. to cause the earth's axis to tilt ...

Just so you all don't forget what this is really about.

[The Puzzler]

Boy Puzz, you have been a busy bee. Exciting stuff and exactly the kind of thing I would've been looking for. We can't say the claims are 100% accurate but if even a fraction of it is true it puts prehistory in an exciting new light.

I noticed that due to the two major phases that it was mentioned of 'younger' Jupiter and I assume because of the changes Saturn's orbit underwent this was seen in a similar vain. This is inline with my view that Zeus and Poseidon may fit with shifting titles as ages change. Why Saturn was the original father or ruler of the gods and why the sun did not rise in prominence until the times of dynastic Egypt.

I also really like the idea of plasmoids as being represented by Zeus's thunderbolts. I had not heard of plasma toroids before so will look into them. Fascinating stuff all round but I'll have to read it a few times to take in all the possibilities.

Oh yeah, I read in the last link I posted that chariots originated with the Maykop culture in the Black sea. Coincides with the times you mentioned for Ariga.

I checked the article you posted and at Wiki on Maykop http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture but nothing is standing at at this moment, although I'm not really looking in that direction, chariots, it does mention 4 horsed chariots in the myth.

You caught my other posts on Atlantis and Saturn, I reckon it must be right, Apam Napat, the fire water God, who was also a well spring God of horses in Europe, a shape shifting merman was the basis for the Atlantean Poseidon, so it must have been the Neptune one I reckon that came into Greece with the Argives and on Crete and Rhodes he took on the earthquake traits and was made into the Poseidon we know from Homer.

Yes, thanks, rather exciting revelation there about the Central Fire, which sounds very much like this other Sun they had, particularly since the Chaldeans seem to be Persians. The son of the Sun, Saturn/Helios, a central fire of the circle...not the Sun though, maybe Shamash..

It could be the Jews stopped the following of this Eternal Fire, known as Helios or Saturn in Ur and left, but the Chaldean Magi still practised it in Babylon and Persia through Zarathustra, who I read once had something to do with Pythagoras. The Magi who saw this star rising in the East might have still be followers of Saturn. The Son of the Sun was returning to them.

Here's an article I know you will like Slim:

http://www.varchive.org/itb/satwor.htm

Saturn, so active in the cosmic changes, was regarded by all mankind as the supreme god. Seneca says that Epigenes, who studied astronomy among the Chaldeans, estimates that the planet Saturn exerts the greatest influence upon all the movements of celestial bodies. (1)

On becoming a nova, it ejected filaments in all directions and the solar system became illuminated as if by a hundred suns. It subsided rather quickly and retreated into far-away regions.

Peoples that remembered early tragedies enacted in the sky by the heavenly bodies asserted that Jupiter drove Saturn away from its place in the sky. Before Jupiter (Zeus) became the chief god, Saturn (Kronos) occupied the celestial throne. In all ancient religions the dominion passes from Saturn to Jupiter.(2) In Greek mythology, Kronos is presented as the father and Zeus as his son who dethrones him. Kronos devours some of his children. After this act Zeus overpowers his father, puts him in chains, and drives him from his royal station in the sky. In Egyptian folklore or religion the participants of the drama are said to be Osiris-Saturn, brother and husband of Isis-Jupiter.

The Osirian mysteries, the wailing for Tammuz, all refer to the transformation of Saturn during and following the Deluge. Osiris was not a king but the planet Saturn, Kronos of the Greeks, Tammuz of the Babylonians. The Babylonians called Saturn the Star of Tammuz. (17) After the Deluge Saturn was invisible (the sky was covered for a long time by clouds of volcanic dust) and the Egyptians cried for Osiris, and the Babylonians cried for Tammuz. Isis (Jupiter at that time) went in search of her husband, and Ishtar (also Jupiter at that early time) went to the netherworld to find her husband Tammuz. For a time Saturn disappeared, driven away by Jupiter, and when it reappeared it was no longer the same planet: it moved very slowly. The disappearance of the planet Saturn in the nether world became the theme of many religious observances, comprising liturgies, mystery plays, lamentations, and fasts. When Osiris was seen again in the sky, though greatly diminished, the people were frenzied by the return of Osiris from death; nevertheless he became king of the netherworld. In the Egyptian way of seeing the celestial drama, Isis (Jupiter), the spouse of Osiris (Saturn) wrapped him in swathings. Osiris was known as the swathed"the way the dead came to be dressed for their journey to the world of the dead, over which Osiris reigns. Similar rites were celebrated in honor of Adonis, who died and was resurrected after a stay in the netherland(18), in the mysteries of Orpheus.

Osiris (also Tammuz) is Saturn too now, a transformation during and following the Deluge.

Looking now, I can see saturn on my space map - 9200BC it moves out of the Celestial Circle below +60. Between 9620BC and 9600BC it seems to have moved across the line into the circle.

So, into the circle around 9600BC and out of the circle 9200BC, that would be 400 odd years that Saturn, the planet sat on top of the world with Heracles on the World Axis.

Seems meaningful.

Actually, I thought I was in the Atlantis thread, never mind, sorry.

Edited September 7, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

"Actually, I thought I was in the Atlantis thread, never mind, sorry."

LOL, Puzz, that is what I always think of you: everything is about 'Atlantis', one way or the other.

[cormac mac airt]

Then stop wasting our time.

Right. Because the 'truth' whatever it is, is the one thing you're NOT looking for.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Say Puzz, in one of your former posts on this page you quoted Dwardu Cardona.

I think you forgot to mention this guy thinks that the earth once orbited Saturn....

==

Anyway, what we all SHOULD be looking for is not only an impact around 2200BC that might have caused some flood and some volcanoes to erupt.... but an impact that caused the change of global weather patterns, global floodings, volcanoes erupting everywhere, some mythical 'homeland' to submerge...

............... AND ..................

.. to cause the earth's axis to tilt ...

Just so you all don't forget what this is really about.

So did the Pythagoreans.

The first non-geocentric model of the Universe was proposed by the Pythagorean philosopher Philolaus (d. 390 BC). According to Philolaus, at the center of the Universe was a "central fire" around which the Earth, Sun, Moon and Planets revolved in uniform circular motion.

The Sun went around this other Central Fire, all the confusion with Saturn and Helios, will the real Sun please stand up? You can see the other thread for more info if you want. It's possible the central fire sun was actually Saturn and the Eternal Fires stand for that. The worship of Saturn.

It's all good, I'm just sifting.

Yep, sorry, I think I thought I was posting in the Atlantis thread.

lol yep, you saw...I know, I can't help it.

Edited September 7, 2010 by The Puzzler