[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

I don't want to tread to far into Velikovsky land but will point out that about the Earth, Moon, Sun, Mars, Jupiter going around an Eternal Flame has it's place in old religious thought.

As I said that idea was entertained by the Pythagoreans. Italians.

Now, the Pythagoreans also say that when Phaethon fell, it caused the Milky Way to create itself.

That's really what the Velikoskians are trying to work out. Aristotle covers a few.

Let us now explain the origin, cause, and nature of the milky way. And here too let us begin by discussing the statements of others on the subject.

(1) Of the so-called Pythagoreans some say that this is the path of one of the stars that fell from heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall. Others say that the sun used once to move in this circle and that this region was scorched or met with some other affection of this kind, because of the sun and its motion.

This has actually been twisted in the Wiki article to sound like this:

In Aristotle's Meteorology, Aristotle says, "...the stars...fell from heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall."[4] Aristotle is saying Phaethon caused a meteor shower. This has led many scientists including Immanuel Velikovsky to speculate that Phaethon was a comet.

You can see the real sentence I posted, that has NOTHING to do with a meteor shower - he's telling us the milky way is the path of one of the stars that fell from Heaven according to the Pythagoreans.

He thinks it's absurd, still this idea had been set in motion long before his time.

How about this one, Sitchin might have liked that one.

Some of the Italians called Pythagoreans say that the comet is one of the planets, but that it appears at great intervals of time and only rises a little above the horizon.

Aristotle's Meteorology - it's a great read, at least Book 1 and 2 are, it gets a bit long after that.... http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html

OK, back to the Oera Linda book... I don't understand your attitude cormac, again, you bluntly refuse to accept any truth in this one either, all false. No give from you.

To me, it almost seems obvious to what has gone on, in a way, from what we know, which is really very little about these people before Roman times when they squashed them and their lands and cultures into the ground as they marched on through, we don't even know who many of them were prior to Roman records.

The story rings true to me in many ways of would have happened in the times prior to Roman invasion. It might be overly simplified but the people and Goddesses mentioned in the book are in the other cultures they speak of, and we don't really know where they came from. What we do know and see is a strong Nordic link and since amber was bought down since ancient Mycenaean times, there has been trade contact made c. 1600BC with people of the Baltic and their stories.

The name of Neptune is cognate with Nethuns, Nektan, Nix and Apam Napat even in India. The spread of these people and their trade in amber from early times should not be overlooked, which I think it is.

Paper, well, what do I know, they might have made paper, why not? I can make it right now, from paper bark tree in my yard, maybe they did make it and it's all gone. Citadels, show me one around PRIOR to Roman invasion, except maybe Stone Henge, which they probably tried to knock down...

Speaking of Stone Henge, who built it, not Druids as was thought...some people living in England c. 4000BC with some astronomical knowledge to create a huge stone structure with some sort of meaning to them. People who knew things, who sailed by the North Star and constellations they knew, they sailed down the Vistula and Rhine Rivers and traded goods through Europe and into Italy, The Ligurians, the sailors of Genoa, the Etruscans, Latium.

The Mycenaeans knew of Latium, there is no reason to think that at around 1600BC these areas were not in contact with trade by sailing vessels going on.

That they are not Frisians? They are, they are just Frisians before they became Frisians...when they left Scandinavia, probably Denmark and areas of Sweden and headed south and settled in what became Friesland. The Frisians were not Dutch, they moved into an area that became Dutch and that older mainland language overlaid their same language but different by being off the mainland and developing into an English styled language.

Athena certainly could be Nyhellenia-Minerva, even though Abe will swear blue she's not, Athena, although generally regarded as meaning nous or mind, also can stem to ship and sailing - Neith, her equal's name means water. Athena is mentioned as being able to ride the clouds to cross the sea, Athena is an ancient cloud nymph, who led ships on their path by following her, they grey one, the birds followed the path of Athena to land and she guided them safely on their journey across the sea. Mentioned is her association with being an even older shamanic bird goddess, hence her owl and association with birds of prey in general.

Only in Crete and Libya does she become as Homer has portrayed her.

Like I said, I don't understand your unwillingness to accept anything point blank. It is an unproven hoax, which means it not PROVEN that it is a hoax.

So what if the manuscript is recent. c.1850 and written by Aunt in an updated style of language, maybe she tried to make it look old, you know how these strange old aunts with secret family manuscripts can be...doesn't mean the story isn't true.

[The Puzzler]

On January 31, 2012 Eros is expected to pass Earth at 0.179 astronomical units (16.6 million miles), about 70 times the distance to the moon, with a visual magnitude of +8.1.[11] During rare oppositions, every 81 years, such as in 1975 and 2056, Eros can reach a magnitude of +7.0,[3] which is brighter than Neptune and brighter than any main belt asteroid except 4 Vesta and, rarely 2 Pallas and 7 Iris. Under this condition, the asteroid actually appears to stop, but unlike the normal condition for a body in heliocentric conjunction with the Earth, it never appears to be retrograde. Its synodic period of over 846 earth days is among the largest of any body in the Solar System.

Eros was one of the first asteroids to be visited by a spacecraft, and the first to be orbited and soft-landed on. NASA spacecraft NEAR Shoemaker entered orbit around Eros in 2000, and came to rest on its surface in 2001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/433_Eros

70 times the distance to the moon is not really that far, considering...

[lightly]

pardon the detour Alewyn? Just want to thank Puzz for her posts and links about Saturn etc. and ideas about electrical/plasma events in the past.

Some may have run across these virtually identical petroglyphs from around the earth supposedly representing electrical/plasma events in the sky observed by past peoples. >

i've been interested in such ideas for a long time.. that earlier man's environment may have been more energetic . Earth's , at times, much stronger magnetic field is recorded geologically . I've long been very curious about worldwide references in myths and religions to thunder and lighting Gods. They are found everywhere.

Anyway.. also interesting, i think, is the newly talked about "dark" energy/matter. Some scientists/physicists are saying it may provide some explanation for the acceleration of our expanding universe... as an expansive or repulsive force.

I always wanted to comment on the idea that the only two forces believed to hold bodies in orbit are Gravity and Inertia. Well... that seems like an awfully precarious balance! Doesn't it? I like to image my finger large enough to nudge a body/Planet in orbit... if it were held in place by gravity and inertia alone... wouldn't a nudge, in favor of gravity or inertia, send it out of it's orbit? For some strange reason i can see this "nudge" of mine not resulting in that but resulting in the planet moving... rocking back and forth across it's orbit until it settles back in Place. I think some qualities of this UN understood dark energy may,somehow, help hold things in place. I know this sounds bizarre .. and will be regarded as the ramblings of an uneducated fool. But i'm an intelligent and intuitive fool. Thanks for letting me air my thoughts.. they needed it! ... carry on.

[cormac mac airt]

I don't understand your attitude cormac, again, you bluntly refuse to accept any truth in this one either, all false. No give from you.

What truth? None has been given in regards to my posts. I've already stated I had no interest in the Oera Linda Book, but this thread isn't just about that book, but about its alleged connection to a flood in c.2200 BC. One that Alewyn specifically claimed happened at that time while posting a link to an article at space.com that didn't say what he alleged it to say, then reinterpreting my link to Master's own article to say something IT didn't say. Even M.A. Courty revised her dating to c.2350 BC and never claimed it happened in Umm al Binni. Those are the only truths, thus far.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

pardon the detour Alewyn? Just want to thank Puzz for her posts and links about Saturn etc. and ideas about electrical/plasma events in the past.

Some may have run across these virtually identical petroglyphs from around the earth supposedly representing electrical/plasma events in the sky observed by past peoples. >

i've been interested in such ideas for a long time.. that earlier man's environment may have been more energetic . Earth's , at times, much stronger magnetic field is recorded geologically . I've long been very curious about worldwide references in myths and religions to thunder and lighting Gods. They are found everywhere.

Anyway.. also interesting, i think, is the newly talked about "dark" energy/matter. Some scientists/physicists are saying it may provide some explanation for the acceleration of our expanding universe... as an expansive or repulsive force.

I always wanted to comment on the idea that the only two forces believed to hold bodies in orbit are Gravity and Inertia. Well... that seems like an awfully precarious balance! Doesn't it? I like to image my finger large enough to nudge a body/Planet in orbit... if it were held in place by gravity and inertia alone... wouldn't a nudge, in favor of gravity or inertia, send it out of it's orbit? For some strange reason i can see this "nudge" of mine not resulting in that but resulting in the planet moving... rocking back and forth across it's orbit until it settles back in Place. I think some qualities of this UN understood dark energy may,somehow, help hold things in place. I know this sounds bizarre .. and will be regarded as the ramblings of an uneducated fool. But i'm an intelligent and intuitive fool. Thanks for letting me air my thoughts.. they needed it! ... carry on.

I know, me too, I'll keep it short and Abe says, often my thoughts about the A place, so Richat Structure, created from electrical forces, maybe an area of contact with an electrical force from another celestial object, be it a comet, meteor or planet, some sort of drawing up of magnetism maybe, toward another force. Who knows really, hey lightly, but nothing wrong with a bit of thinking about stuff, no matter how crazy it might seem I reckon, imagine if Einstein had never thought about anything..

[Abramelin]

I don't want to tread to far into Velikovsky land but will point out that about the Earth, Moon, Sun, Mars, Jupiter going around an Eternal Flame has it's place in old religious thought.

As I said that idea was entertained by the Pythagoreans. Italians.

Now, the Pythagoreans also say that when Phaethon fell, it caused the Milky Way to create itself.

That's really what the Velikoskians are trying to work out. Aristotle covers a few.

Let us now explain the origin, cause, and nature of the milky way. And here too let us begin by discussing the statements of others on the subject.

(1) Of the so-called Pythagoreans some say that this is the path of one of the stars that fell from heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall. Others say that the sun used once to move in this circle and that this region was scorched or met with some other affection of this kind, because of the sun and its motion.

This has actually been twisted in the Wiki article to sound like this:

In Aristotle's Meteorology, Aristotle says, "...the stars...fell from heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall."[4] Aristotle is saying Phaethon caused a meteor shower. This has led many scientists including Immanuel Velikovsky to speculate that Phaethon was a comet.

You can see the real sentence I posted, that has NOTHING to do with a meteor shower - he's telling us the milky way is the path of one of the stars that fell from Heaven according to the Pythagoreans.

He thinks it's absurd, still this idea had been set in motion long before his time.

How about this one, Sitchin might have liked that one.

Some of the Italians called Pythagoreans say that the comet is one of the planets, but that it appears at great intervals of time and only rises a little above the horizon.

Aristotle's Meteorology - it's a great read, at least Book 1 and 2 are, it gets a bit long after that.... http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/meteorology.1.i.html

OK, back to the Oera Linda book... I don't understand your attitude cormac, again, you bluntly refuse to accept any truth in this one either, all false. No give from you.

To me, it almost seems obvious to what has gone on, in a way, from what we know, which is really very little about these people before Roman times when they squashed them and their lands and cultures into the ground as they marched on through, we don't even know who many of them were prior to Roman records.

The story rings true to me in many ways of would have happened in the times prior to Roman invasion. It might be overly simplified but the people and Goddesses mentioned in the book are in the other cultures they speak of, and we don't really know where they came from. What we do know and see is a strong Nordic link and since amber was bought down since ancient Mycenaean times, there has been trade contact made c. 1600BC with people of the Baltic and their stories.

The name of Neptune is cognate with Nethuns, Nektan, Nix and Apam Napat even in India. The spread of these people and their trade in amber from early times should not be overlooked, which I think it is.

Paper, well, what do I know, they might have made paper, why not? I can make it right now, from paper bark tree in my yard, maybe they did make it and it's all gone. Citadels, show me one around PRIOR to Roman invasion, except maybe Stone Henge, which they probably tried to knock down...

Speaking of Stone Henge, who built it, not Druids as was thought...some people living in England c. 4000BC with some astronomical knowledge to create a huge stone structure with some sort of meaning to them. People who knew things, who sailed by the North Star and constellations they knew, they sailed down the Vistula and Rhine Rivers and traded goods through Europe and into Italy, The Ligurians, the sailors of Genoa, the Etruscans, Latium.

The Mycenaeans knew of Latium, there is no reason to think that at around 1600BC these areas were not in contact with trade by sailing vessels going on.

That they are not Frisians? They are, they are just Frisians before they became Frisians...when they left Scandinavia, probably Denmark and areas of Sweden and headed south and settled in what became Friesland. The Frisians were not Dutch, they moved into an area that became Dutch and that older mainland language overlaid their same language but different by being off the mainland and developing into an English styled language.

Athena certainly could be Nyhellenia-Minerva, even though Abe will swear blue she's not, Athena, although generally regarded as meaning nous or mind, also can stem to ship and sailing - Neith, her equal's name means water. Athena is mentioned as being able to ride the clouds to cross the sea, Athena is an ancient cloud nymph, who led ships on their path by following her, they grey one, the birds followed the path of Athena to land and she guided them safely on their journey across the sea. Mentioned is her association with being an even older shamanic bird goddess, hence her owl and association with birds of prey in general.

Only in Crete and Libya does she become as Homer has portrayed her.

Like I said, I don't understand your unwillingness to accept anything point blank. It is an unproven hoax, which means it not PROVEN that it is a hoax.

So what if the manuscript is recent. c.1850 and written by Aunt in an updated style of language, maybe she tried to make it look old, you know how these strange old aunts with secret family manuscripts can be...doesn't mean the story isn't true.

"That they are not Frisians? They are, they are just Frisians before they became Frisians...when they left Scandinavia, probably Denmark and areas of Sweden and headed south and settled in what became Friesland. The Frisians were not Dutch, they moved into an area that became Dutch and that older mainland language overlaid their same language but different by being off the mainland and developing into an English styled language."

Dutch is a language that was created based on Frisian, Saxon, and later Frankish, you name it. I know why you keep repeating this ad nauseum, and it's because you won't accept the linguistic fact that everyone who studied the OLB tells us it is clearly a mix of Dutch, Frisian, Old Dutch, Old Frisian, and many adapted words from other languages. Then there is the word order in the sentences of the OLB that clearly points to a very recent origin, and not even medieval.

The language used in the OLB can be read by someone able to read Dutch and Old Dutch. And if one happens to also know Frisian, s/he can read the OLB like yesterday's newspaper.

English speaking people all depend on the English translation of the Dutch translation by Ottema.

I have never seen any translation in English directly from the original OLB text.

"Athena certainly could be Nyhellenia-Minerva, even though Abe will swear blue she's not"

It's only 'certainly' when you make a huge detour around the facts.

The facts are that first: "Nyhellenia" is the wrong spelling, it's "Nehalennia". They dragged up hundreds of votive altars from the bottom of the sea, and none has "Nyhellenia" inscribed on it.

Second, Nehalennia is never displayed with a bird, any bird.

Third, you mention Homer. Well, it's from his time period we have to look at the way Athena is being depicted, and that's not what you are doing.

For me it's like trying to hammer a cubical piece of wood into a round hole of which the diameter is equal to one side of the cube; just hit hard enough, and it will fit. Eventually.

---------

EDIT:

"So what if the manuscript is recent. c.1850 and written by Aunt in an updated style of language, maybe she tried to make it look old, you know how these strange old aunts with secret family manuscripts can be...doesn't mean the story isn't true."

I will tell you what: it's supposed to be a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy... in the ancient OLB script.

You are suggesting that first they used a more recent language, the language these more recent members of the Over de Linden family spoke, and then that they transliterated this newer text into old OLB running script, the one we know of.

Maybe this 'Aunt' also accidentily spilled tea on every page?

And what reason would she have to make the manuscript look old?? Because the forgery would be more easily accepted by those who were blind and didn't know s*** about linguistics?

Puzz, if this is one of your arguments for the truth of the OLB, then I'd like to say it's weak, to say the least.

---------

EDIT:

Here is a linguistic analysis of the OLB by a J. Beckering Vinckers (in Dutch, sorry. Maybe Google Translator is able to make something sensible in English of it)

J. Beckering Vinckers, "De onechtheid van het Oera Linda-Bôk". Erven F. Bohn, Haarlem 1876

.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

"Agent Mulder" said a true thing in respons to one of your posts in another thread, Puzz: "a lot of speculation here".

It appears to me that you drag in anything even remotely connected to the topic, like words, names, faint ideas and fringe concepts (earth orbiting Saturn, jeesh).

Find me a comet or asteroid that impacted on earth around 2200 BC, an impact that caused the earth's axis to tilt for many degrees.

And preferrably some scientific document to back it up.

Believe me, if something like that ever really happened, every geologist would be talking about it.

But to my knowledge not one geologists ever mentioned it.

Now what is this all about, really: geologists the world over are hiding facts, or Alewyn's idea that a comet/asteroid strike that tilted the earth's axis is just wrong?

.

Edited September 7, 2010 by Abramelin

[lightly]

I know, me too, .. *snip* .. Who knows really, hey lightly, but nothing wrong with a bit of thinking about stuff, no matter how crazy it might seem I reckon, imagine if Einstein had never thought about anything..

thanks Puzz, I've always Loved to think about things.. usually unprejudiced by thinking that has gone on before.

Einstein was very funny sometimes... He supposedly said something to the effect of ..." Never commit to memory, anything that can be looked up in a book. " .. of course if a person followed that advice they would know almost Nothing! lol, good old Albert.

Ok, scuse me,.. back to the bloodbath . . discussion .

[SlimJim22]

"Agent Mulder" said a true thing in respons to one of your posts in another thread, Puzz: "a lot of speculation here".

It appears to me that you drag in anything even remotely connected to the topic, like words, names, faint ideas and fringe concepts (earth orbiting Saturn, jeesh).

Find me a comet or asteroid that impacted on earth around 2200 BC, an impact that caused the earth's axis to tilt for many degrees.

And preferrably some scientific document to back it up.

Believe me, if something like that ever really happened, every geologist would be talking about it.

But to my knowledge not one geologists ever mentioned it.

Now what is this all about, really: geologists the world over are hiding facts, or Alewyn's idea that a comet/asteroid strike that tilted the earth's axis is just wrong?

.

WHat of Umm al Bimmi lake?

http://atlas-conferences.com/c/a/i/q/15.htm

http://www.warawara.mq.edu.au/staff/dhamacher/Hamacher_Artifact_05.pdf

[cormac mac airt]

Find me a comet or asteroid that impacted on earth around 2200 BC, an impact that caused the earth's axis to tilt for many degrees.

WHat of Umm al Bimmi lake?

http://atlas-conferences.com/c/a/i/q/15.htm

http://www.warawara.mq.edu.au/staff/dhamacher/Hamacher_Artifact_05.pdf

In order to produce an impact crater with the dimensions of Umm al Binni lake, a comet (density = 500 kg/m^3, v = 25 km/s) would have been between 200-300m in diameter while a Ni-Fe asteroid (density = 7860 kg/m^3, v = 15 km/s) would have been between 90-110m in diameter. The resulting impact effects would have caused massive devastation to an area thousands of square kilometres in size, but would not have been sufficient on its own to have caused the wide-scale damage seen at distances exceeding ~100 kilometers from the impact and thus could not be responsible for many of the more distant devastating effects on its own.

Umm al Binni lake

Besides the fact that the site hasn't even been analyzed nor confirmed as an impact crater, regardless of date, it's of insufficient size (assuming for arguments sake it is one) to have affected the earth on the scale that Abramelin was asking about.

cormac

Edited September 7, 2010 by cormac mac airt

[The Puzzler]

You are just not seeing the English in it then, bedrum for one, lol and min sun, my son, many words are English base.

Read this: Dutch is a descendant of several Frankish dialects spoken in the High Middle Ages and Early Modern Times, and to a lesser extent of Frisian, that was spoken by the original inhabitants of Holland.

Dutch is a descendant of ...and to a lesser degree Frisian.

Do you see that Abe? Dutch is a DESCENDANT of Frisian, it is not a parent language of it.

But I've debated that already.

Nyhellenia is not the same as the Nahalennia in spelling nor 1600 years of time. The Nahalennia is wuite likely taken from the original Nyhellenia-Minerva, so she will be different to Athena.

You can hardly compare a Goddess from 5BC to one from 1600BC and not see differences. The original Nyhellenia would be different again to both versions we know. By the time 5BC came around Nahalennia had lost most of her bird traits although the OLB book does tell us she has the owl.

To expect the Nahelennia of Wallacre to be the same as an original Goddess 1600 year beforehand is a bit dumb really, of course in that amount of time she is going to develop into a different shape and form. The one you see from this same time (Roman) will not be the same as the Goddess from 1600BC.

So, quite frankly I find your arguments weak back. Thats what made this such a good debate here Abe for us I think.

Spell edit.

Edited September 7, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

WHat of Umm al Bimmi lake?

http://atlas-conferences.com/c/a/i/q/15.htm

http://www.warawara.mq.edu.au/staff/dhamacher/Hamacher_Artifact_05.pdf

Show me an impact that tilted the earth's axis around 2200 BC.

That is what Alewyn is talking about.

And his book is what we are discussing here, in case you ( and Puzz) forgot.

[Abramelin]

You are just not seeing the English in it then, bedrum for one, lol and min sun, my son, many words are English base.

Read this: Dutch is a descendant of several Frankish dialects spoken in the High Middle Ages and Early Modern Times, and to a lesser extent of Frisian, that was spoken by the original inhabitants of Holland.

Dutch is a descendant of ...and to a lesser degree Frisian.

Do you see that Abe? Dutch is a DESCENDANT of Frisian, it is not a parent language of it.

But I've debated that already.

Nyhellenia is not the same as the Nahalennia in spelling nor 1600 years of time. The Nahalennia is wuite likely taken from the original Nyhellenia-Minerva, so she will be different to Athena.

You can hardly compare a Goddess from 5BC to one from 1600BC and not see differences. The original Nyhellenia would be different again to both versions we know. By the time 5BC came around Nahalennia had lost most of her bird traits although the OLB book does tell us she has the owl.

To expect the Nahelennia of Wallacre to be the same as an original Goddess 1600 year beforehand is a bit dumb really, of course in that amount of time she is going to develop into a different shape and form. The one you see from this same time (Roman) will not be the same as the Goddess from 1600BC.

So, quite frankly I find your arguments weak back. Thats what made this such a good debate here Abe for us I think.

Spell edit.

Puzz, I give up. I have said a dozen times now where the Dutch language came from. Check my goddamn former post, where I explained to you where Dutch came from.

You are either blind or stubborn.

Nyhellennia never existed, only in the OLB. The authors of the OLB simply changed the spelling of the name of that goddess to make it sound more Greek. Fishermen dragged up hundreds of votive altars dedicated to Nehalennia, and NONE, NONE has "Nyhellenia" on them.

----

BEDRVM is nothing but 'bedroom', and no Frisian ever used that ENGLISH word.

It's BULL, you get that? Not a red bull, not a bull dressed in a spotted dress, just BULL.

.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Puzz, I give up. I have said a dozen times now where the Dutch language came from. Check my goddamn former post, where I explained to you where Dutch came from.

You are either blind or stubborn.

Nyhellennia never existed, only in the OLB. The authors of the OLB simply changed the spelling of the name of that goddess to make it sound more Greek. Fishermen dragged up hundreds of votive altars dedicated to Nehalennia, and NONE, NONE has "Nyhellenia" on them.

----

BEDRVM is nothing but 'bedroom', and no Frisian ever used that ENGLISH word.

It's BULL, you get that? Not a red bull, not a bull dressed in a spotted dress, just BULL.

.

lol we'll see...

If Nyhellenia became Nahalennia it would explain why we don't find Nyhellenia, second, she is also known as Minerva it says - that part of her is part of Athena.

Athena is not Minerva either but we say oh the Roman Goddess Minerva is Athena. Minerva is only one aspect of Athena, just as Nyhellenia would be, a European aspect of her. Minerva is a seperate Goddess from Athena but a part of her became Athena when it mixed with the Cretan form of Athena. Both the Greek names come from Crete and both Poseidon and Athena are combined European/Cretan Gods.

Same as Poseidon. He is not Neptune, only part of Neptune, the water and horse part and the earthquake part came from Crete, so Poseidon is really a Cretan earthshaker combined with a European merman of the water wells and you get the Poseidon we know as being the Greek God.

Edited September 8, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Show me an impact that tilted the earth's axis around 2200 BC.

That is what Alewyn is talking about.

And his book is what we are discussing here, in case you ( and Puzz) forgot.

I haven't forgotten, you need to check everything though before you can dismiss it really.

Quite frankly, I'm over the flood in 2200BC, I think we have all laid every piece of evidence on the table already have we not?

Has anyone decided if Atland was in Scandinavia or India yet or both?

[SlimJim22]

Show me an impact that tilted the earth's axis around 2200 BC.

That is what Alewyn is talking about.

And his book is what we are discussing here, in case you ( and Puzz) forgot.

I know exactly where I am for a change. Not having access to Alewyns book I did not know this discussion had been narrowed to impacts shifting the axis. 2,200bce was the date I read given for Umm al Bimmi and it seems likely such an event would put an end to the the immediate viccinity. Follwoing this date we have tsunamis and earthquakes around the Med, volcanic eruptions, drought in Africa and Egypt and the demise of the Maykop and Oba cultures of the Black sea. I don't see where I have left topic at any point (recently).

[Abramelin]

I know exactly where I am for a change. Not having access to Alewyns book I did not know this discussion had been narrowed to impacts shifting the axis. 2,200bce was the date I read given for Umm al Bimmi and it seems likely such an event would put an end to the the immediate viccinity. Follwoing this date we have tsunamis and earthquakes around the Med, volcanic eruptions, drought in Africa and Egypt and the demise of the Maykop and Oba cultures of the Black sea. I don't see where I have left topic at any point (recently).

What we need is proof of disasters the world over, at around 2200 BC.

If the earth's axis tilted because of an impact, we would see geological traces of that event everywhere.

I can imagine, of course, that an impact in for instance the Indian Ocean or in Mesopotamia would create havoc in the surrounding countries, but if it was an impact able to tilt the earth's axis, then things would have been lots worse. And we would probably not be here discussing it.

[TheSearcher]

I know exactly where I am for a change. Not having access to Alewyns book I did not know this discussion had been narrowed to impacts shifting the axis. 2,200bce was the date I read given for Umm al Bimmi and it seems likely such an event would put an end to the the immediate viccinity. Follwoing this date we have tsunamis and earthquakes around the Med, volcanic eruptions, drought in Africa and Egypt and the demise of the Maykop and Oba cultures of the Black sea. I don't see where I have left topic at any point (recently).

There's one little snag right there. The alleged Umm al Bimmi crater, would not have been an event big enough to have the widespread effects described in the OLB, nor have had the global effect that some here want to attribute to it. It's just too small, check the link Cormac posted earlier, it actually says so. Besides, there have never been any on site researches yet, so even the timing of the event is only an educated guess at best.

The only global event that might have corresponded, is the the 4.2 kiloyear event, which is actually a Bond event, a climate fluctuation occurring every ≈1,470 ± 500 years, according to the ice core research.

[lightly]

It's BULL, you get that? Not a red bull, not a bull dressed in a spotted dress, just BULL.

.

not so fast.... what about Mrs. Bull ?

[The Puzzler]

There's one little snag right there. The alleged Umm al Bimmi crater, would not have been an event big enough to have the widespread effects described in the OLB, nor have had the global effect that some here want to attribute to it. It's just too small, check the link Cormac posted earlier, it actually says so. Besides, there have never been any on site researches yet, so even the timing of the event is only an educated guess at best.

The only global event that might have corresponded, is the the 4.2 kiloyear event, which is actually a Bond event, a climate fluctuation occurring every ≈1,470 ± 500 years, according to the ice core research.

I have to go on the 4.2 kiloyear effect and the accompanying Bond Event and no meteor or comet hitting Earth. The effect is a pattern too, so at certain times, it might have co-incided with another 1,500 year event in the sky. This may have caused flooding in snow capped mountains amking rivers run larger and flooding plains and such as the mention of famine and dryness, aridity seems to be the main climate changes.

The Ipuwer Papyrus http://mrkeith.org/linkipuwer.htm I'd say is describing the Exodus events, it even seems to refer to a Lord God figure so don't think the mentions of the extreme weather were at the Flood.

[Abramelin]

I was just reading an old thread I once started, and came upon this:

The Medinet Habu Tablets clarify some of the events. Some of the Sea Peoples, as prisoners, declare: "Our islands are uprooted and carried away. The might of Nun [ocean] broke forth and fell in great wave on our towns and villages. The head of their cities has gone under the sea; their land is no more" (inscriptions 37, 46, 80, 102 & 109). This is very much like the geologist's descriptions examined earlier for northern Europe. Ramses III declared on the walls of Medinet Habu that "the whole delta of the Nile is flooded by the sea." Later he states, as does the archeological evidence, that there were vast fires in the Near East: "Libya became a desert; a terrible torch hurled flame from heaven to destroy their souls and lay waste their land [as] their bones burn and roast within their limbs [and] the Nile was dried up and the land fell victim to drought" (Tablet 105). Again, like Homer, the fires are said to be the result of a source from outside of the Earth.

http://www.livingcosmos.com/1250-1050BC.htm

n Defense of Nature: The History Nobody Told You About - by Richard Michael Pasichnyk

http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Nature-History-Nobody-About/dp/0595255868

http://www.pageonelit.com/interviews/RMPasichnyk.html

Like I already asked here, http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=176033&st=150 , does anyone know if these Medinet Habu transltions are actually correct??

Yep, I know, the time frame is wrong (around 1200 BC), but this appears to fit the OLB a lot better.

[Alewyn]

I was just reading an old thread I once started, and came upon this:

The Medinet Habu Tablets clarify some of the events. Some of the Sea Peoples, as prisoners, declare: "Our islands are uprooted and carried away. The might of Nun [ocean] broke forth and fell in great wave on our towns and villages. The head of their cities has gone under the sea; their land is no more" (inscriptions 37, 46, 80, 102 & 109). This is very much like the geologist's descriptions examined earlier for northern Europe. Ramses III declared on the walls of Medinet Habu that "the whole delta of the Nile is flooded by the sea." Later he states, as does the archeological evidence, that there were vast fires in the Near East: "Libya became a desert; a terrible torch hurled flame from heaven to destroy their souls and lay waste their land [as] their bones burn and roast within their limbs [and] the Nile was dried up and the land fell victim to drought" (Tablet 105). Again, like Homer, the fires are said to be the result of a source from outside of the Earth.

http://www.livingcosmos.com/1250-1050BC.htm

n Defense of Nature: The History Nobody Told You About - by Richard Michael Pasichnyk

http://www.amazon.com/Defense-Nature-History-Nobody-About/dp/0595255868

http://www.pageonelit.com/interviews/RMPasichnyk.html

Like I already asked here, http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=176033&st=150 , does anyone know if these Medinet Habu transltions are actually correct??

Yep, I know, the time frame is wrong (around 1200 BC), but this appears to fit the OLB a lot better.

Abe,

I was not aware of the Medinet Habu Tablets. I had a cursory look at it and it seems credible.

The interesting thing is that the whole Greek Civilization (amongst others) up to that stage was almost wiped out - including their writing system.

How does this tie in with the Oera Linda "Hoax"?

Herewith the first paragraph of Chapter 7 of "Survivors of the Great Tsunami":

"Chapter 7

Homeward Bound

The Dark Ages

Historians commonly refer to the Greek Dark Ages as the period from ca 1200 BC up to ca 800 BC when Homer wrote his Iliad and Odyssey. The Oera Linda Book also had its dark ages during the same time. In Chapter XXX of the Book of Adela’s Followers we have the notes regarding Ulysses and Athens in 1188 BC. In Chapter XXXI the narrative continues with the loss of Denmark in 591 BC and the lives of Adela and Apollonia. Nothing seems to have been recorded in the intervening period of almost 600 years – at least not by the Oera Linda family."

1. The OLB does not give any explanation for this 600 year silence, but it may well be that you have just given us a clue.

2. It would appear that this 600 year silence is more proof of the OLB's authenticity. Quite frankly, must we realy believe that a hoaxer would have made allowance for this in the OLB?

3. It would also appear that this 1200BC event was quite devastating and widespread. In one of the previous threats I refered to a site that Cormac provided where there were some speculation about a 2200 BC and a 1200 BC Flood. I would like to suggest that this 1200 BC disaster may have obscured much of the evidence of the 2200 BC event.

[cormac mac airt]

Slim,

2,200bce was the date I read given for Umm al Bimmi and it seems likely such an event would put an end to the the immediate vicinity.

Yet, is wholly unevidenced as having done so.

The Maykop Culture ended c.2500, however, even including them with the Kemi Oba Culture there is no evidence of an involvement between the two and an alleged impactor c.2200 BC.

R1b1b2 is thought to have arrived in central and western Europe around 2500 BCE, by going up the Danube from the Black Sea coast. The archeological and genetic evidence (distribution of R1b subclades) point at several consecutive waves towards the Danube between 2800 BCE and 2300 BCE (beginning of the Unetice culture). It is interesting to note that this also corresponds to the end of the Maykop culture (2500 BCE) and Kemi Oba culture (2200 BCE) on the northern shores of the Black Sea, and their replacement by cultures descended from the northern steppes. It can therefore be envisaged that the (mostly) R1b population from the northern half of the Black Sea migrated westward due to pressure from other Indo-European people (R1a) from the north, like the burgeoning Proto-Indo-Iranian branch, linked to the contemporary Poltavka and Abashevo cultures.

Source

cormac

[Abramelin]

Abe,

I was not aware of the Medinet Habu Tablets. I had a cursory look at it and it seems credible.

The interesting thing is that the whole Greek Civilization (amongst others) up to that stage was almost wiped out - including their writing system.

How does this tie in with the Oera Linda "Hoax"?

Herewith the first paragraph of Chapter 7 of "Survivors of the Great Tsunami":

"Chapter 7

Homeward Bound

The Dark Ages

Historians commonly refer to the Greek Dark Ages as the period from ca 1200 BC up to ca 800 BC when Homer wrote his Iliad and Odyssey. The Oera Linda Book also had its dark ages during the same time. In Chapter XXX of the Book of Adelas Followers we have the notes regarding Ulysses and Athens in 1188 BC. In Chapter XXXI the narrative continues with the loss of Denmark in 591 BC and the lives of Adela and Apollonia. Nothing seems to have been recorded in the intervening period of almost 600 years at least not by the Oera Linda family."

1. The OLB does not give any explanation for this 600 year silence, but it may well be that you have just given us a clue.

2. It would appear that this 600 year silence is more proof of the OLB's authenticity. Quite frankly, must we realy believe that a hoaxer would have made allowance for this in the OLB?

3. It would also appear that this 1200BC event was quite devastating and widespread. In one of the previous threats I refered to a site that Cormac provided where there were some speculation about a 2200 BC and a 1200 BC Flood. I would like to suggest that this 1200 BC disaster may have obscured much of the evidence of the 2200 BC event.

Actually, when I said it would fit in better into the OLB than many other things we found, is because wht I quoted from that site about Medinet Habu echoes what supposedly happened around 2193 BC according to the OLB.

The quote talks about cities, peoples and lands disappearing beneath the waves.

And when I posted this, I forgot to add that it may have been one source of inspiration for Juergen Spanuth's "Atlantis in the North".

Does the OLB talk about land(s) submerging around 1200 BC?

====

EDIT:

This is what I found just now:

Studying numerous earth cores taken by hand augers [Me: huh??] and power drills, I had discovered that parts of the lower town of Tiryns, one of the Greek citadels from the era of the Trojan War, had been buried under several meters of mud deposited by a flash flood that had occurred around 1200 BC. This catastrophe coincided with an earthquake, for which evidence was found in the archeological record of the Tiryns citadel. Both of these events occurred shortly after 1200 BC, precisely at the time when the Mycenaean civilization suddenly collapsed.http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199503/who.were.the.sea.people..htm

====

EDIT:

What is that link Cormac posted?? He posted a lot of links, but I assume you know which one.

Cormac?

.

Edited September 8, 2010 by Abramelin

[Alewyn]

Actually, when I said it would fit in better into the OLB than many other things we found, is because wht I quoted from that site about Medinet Habu echoes what supposedly happened around 2193 BC according to the OLB.

The quote talks about cities, peoples and lands disappearing beneath the waves.

And when I posted this, I forgot to add that it may have been one source of inspiration for Juergen Spanuth's "Atlantis in the North".

Does the OLB talk about land(s) submerging around 1200 BC?

====

EDIT:

This is what I found just now:

Studying numerous earth cores taken by hand augers [Me: huh??] and power drills, I had discovered that parts of the lower town of Tiryns, one of the Greek citadels from the era of the Trojan War, had been buried under several meters of mud deposited by a flash flood that had occurred around 1200 BC. This catastrophe coincided with an earthquake, for which evidence was found in the archeological record of the Tiryns citadel. Both of these events occurred shortly after 1200 BC, precisely at the time when the Mycenaean civilization suddenly collapsed.http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199503/who.were.the.sea.people..htm

====

EDIT:

What is that link Cormac posted?? He posted a lot of links, but I assume you know which one.

Cormac?

.

Cormac's Link:

The Umm al Binni Structures and Bronze Age Catastrophes by Duane W. Hamacher

Also see threats 1126 to 1129

The OLB does not say anything about lands submerging or a flood in 1200 BC. In fact, the OLB is silent for about 600 years which made me think that something very bad must have happened because this coincided with the "Greek Dark Ages".

I believe we are talking about two seperate events here but I would like to suggest that the 2200 BC event was the bigger of the two. (i.e "Noah's Flood")

The OLB recorded another event in 305 BC which I suspect was the "Cimbrian Flood". All three of them appear to have been caused by cosmic impacts.

The 305 BC flood coincided with a suspected impact in the North Atlantic that was dated to ca 300 BC by Dallas Abbott et al. (see my reference to the "Manhattan Tsunami" in my book.)

These three disasters happen to have occured 1000 years apart.