[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood

[The Puzzler]

So I amaze you because you talk a lot about the Oera Linda Book, thus giving me the idea that's the main topic of your book.

Yeah, that's really amazing....

OK, if you don't do it, I will: here's something about your book:

It happened on the night of Wednesday, 21 October 2193 BC. The Burckle asteroid, one of many, struck the Indian Ocean 1500 kilometers south-east of Madagascar with the force of several million nuclear warheads. Planet earth shuddered and tilted on her axis. Tectonic plates shook and rocked violently on the planet’s built-in shock absorber - the underlying magma. Around the globe volcanoes erupted. Tsunamis from the impact and from thousands of earthquakes sped around the earth in a frenzy of destruction as earth adjusted to her new rotation axis. Trillions of tons of sea water and superheated steam were flung into the stratosphere. The wall of water from the impact towered hundreds of meters above the ocean as it raced towards land.

On the East Coast of China it was already mid-morning and in India dawn was breaking. From Europe to the Middle East people were blissfully asleep. First came the violent tremors followed by the air blast and the unimaginable mountains of water. Cities, towns and forests were crushed and swept away in an instant. Obliterated. Millions died. In the darkness they could not see it coming. They never knew what hit them.

In China the Hongsan Culture came to an end. In Egypt the Old Kingdom, the builders of the great pyramids, was destroyed. The Indus Valley Civilization in Pakistan and India was wiped out and in the Middle East the Empire of Akkad ceased to exist. Man came to the brink of extinction. All that remained were the myths, folklore and legends. More than four thousand years later archaeologists would discover their relics in the sand.

On wrangle Island in the Arctic Ocean the last Mammoths died out and in Europe the most advanced civilization on the face of the earth seemingly disappeared without a trace. Seemingly…

http://impactsurvivors.com/

"Survivors of the Great Tsunami" is a factual account of the uncovering of the most advanced civilization in Early Antiquity. This West European empire from more than 4000 years ago is unknown to, or has been denied by historians to this day.

The book examines an ancient manuscript discovered in the Netherlands in 1867. The manuscript was subsequently declared a fraud by Dutch linguists and parroted by historians. By now comparing this manuscript with numerous authors from antiquity, as well as testing the claims made in it against modern sciences such as archaeology, paleoclimatolgy, genetics, linguistics, oceanography and many more, the manuscript was found to be true in every instance. These modern discoveries were yet to be made in the 19th century when the manuscript first came into the public domain. Europe’s "Rosetta Stone" had been found.

The reader is taken on a journey to examine the memoirs and reports of men and women from Western Europe who suffered the biggest catastrophe in the recorded history of mankind; the catastrophe that killed millions and became known as "The Deluge" or "Noah’s Flood" . The manuscript reflects the sagas and adventures of these people as they led other survivors of the disaster from all over the world out of the Stone- and Bronze Ages into the Iron Age.

The pioneers from Europe’s western seaboard founded the ancient civilizations from Greece to Persia. They introduced the world to carbonized steel, chariot warfare, cavalry charges astronomy and mathematics. They gave man the "Greek alphabet", "Indo-Arabian numerals", democracy, free enterprise and monotheism. Four thousand years ago they even tried their hand at arms control and nature conservation.

The author provides maps and satellite images as proof of the existence of this forgotten civilization whose extent was greater than that of the European Union. The reader is also presented with ancient maps and irrefutable photographic evidence of an inhabited land the size of Britain which now lies more than 1000 meters below the cold waters of the North Atlantic.

The startling but well substantiated disclosures in "Survivors of the Great Tsunami" suggest that hereto accepted European, Asian and World history had been severely compromised in the past. For too long have historians, linguists, geneticists and others denied the pivotal role that Western Europe had played in early world history. Their legacy is incalculable. It is time they get their due recognition or, as Homer put it, "their due meed of glory".

http://impactsurvivors.com/synopsis.html

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About that Burckle Crater:

But Masse's work postulates that the recently discovered Burckle Crater off Madagascar may be reflected in wide-spread destruction myths possibly dated around 2800 BC.

http://archaeology.about.com/b/2007/12/05/geomythology-and-the-burckle-crater.htm

Burckle Crater is an undersea crater the Holocene Impact Working Group consider likely to have been formed by a very large scale and relatively recent (c. 2800-3000 BC) comet or meteorite impact event. It is estimated to be about 30 km (18 mi) in diameter [1], hence about 25 times larger than Meteor Crater.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burckle_Crater

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But according to you it happened on 2193 BC. Do you have physical proof it happened in 2193 BC, and not around 2800 BC??

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About those mammoths on Wrangel Island:

A small population survived on St. Paul Island, Alaska, up until 3,750 BC,[2][15][16] and the small mammoths of Wrangel Island survived until 1,650 BC.[17][18][19]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammoth

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It appears to me that you tend to stretch the dates of certain events to fit your theory.

If you now tell me, "Go read my book", I wil tell you, "Go read the Doggerland thread".

You have accepted the challenge by Riaan to post here about your book, and I am glad you accepted the challenge.

I for one am very interested. You can try to keep p***ing me off because I do not immediately bow down to your great wisdom and research, but that won't do the trick for me.

You also seem to forget that this board is visited by many thousands a day. If I did not take the trouble to try to discuss your book/theory with you, then this thread would very probably have died very soon.

But now many people will be interested in your book because *I* keep this discussion alive.

Maybe I should give you the number of my bank account...

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OK, I wanted to say I was just kidding, but actually I am really p***ed off.

Call me a 'doubting Thomas' or whatever, but I just want meat. And when you start talking about a physical event like the Thera eruption, then you give me real meat.

And what you said about the Thera eruption is so unlikely, that I also start doubting about how you came to your other conclusions.

--

Nice, eh? Discussing on the internet??

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Alewyn may have taken some liberties but in actual fact the Burckle Crater remains undated.

Burckle Crater has not yet been dated by radiometric analysis of its sediments.

However I do think in comparison with the Sumerian King List and the dated sediment at Sumeria that is did happen c. 2800BC and was what possibly caused the Biblical flood. BUT that is only if the dating for this flood is correct.

Alewyn, it is probably likely that the flood is not the same as what affected the Middle East, so although those flooding events happened as described in your book I think if it was dated 2800BC it would fit better with history. If you had not had the destruction caused by the Burckle meteor I think it would work better. It appears that the destruction told in the book is in Western Europe, mentioned Friesland and also the forest of Germany so I think you could look at 2 seperate incidents here. An Indian Ocean meter impact imo would not affect Western Europe as described in the OLB.

In saying that, in history I see a 1000 year overlap of similar events at around 2800 and then 1800BC, even in the Bible this can clearly be seen in the ages of Noah and co. We know people didn't live 900 years. The Biblical flood is placed at around 1800BC according to the Hebrew calendar. If it actually happened in 2800BC as the lists and evidence seems to suggest we have that 1000 year discrepency again. It appears to me that even in the Bible, the events of 2800BC have been bought down 500-1000 years and the ages of the Biblical characters shows this.

At a time close to the event mentioned in the Oera Linda Book (around 2200BC) a serious climatic event did take place, enough to end the Dynasties of Akkad and also the Old Kingdom of Egypt and that is the 4.2 kiloyear event. It co-incided with a known Bond Event in the North Atlantic Sea.

≈4,200 BP (Bond event 3) — correlates with the 4.2 kiloyear event (correlates also with the collapse of the Akkadian Empire and the end of the Egyptian Old Kingdom)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bond_event

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event

The aridity experienced explains the drying up of lusher areas and the scorching heat and self combusting fires mentioned in the cataclysm myths and is dated to 2200BC.

So, maybe the Biblical Flood is 2800BC and the story of Hayk (of Armenia) also gives him as a great grandson of Noah and placed in 2600BC which works well but the flood mentioned the OLB is actually an event from the 4.2 kiloyear event, which imo led to the warmer conditions of the Scandinavian countries and in 1700BC they had quite a developed culture happening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Bronze_Age

To the Hebrews of after Abrahmans time when the Bible would have been constructed there own memories probably recalled the events of the 4.2 kiloyear event rather than the 2800BC flood so maybe that is why Noah and co. are so old and they have it dated closer to 2000BC. It is the only way to reconcile the timeframe and age factor in the Bible imo.

You can only put a memory from 2800BC into an 800 year old man in 2000BC. But an event at the same time as a more recent one could then have the original event placed into the more recent timeframe. Dates can be compromised very easily.

Confusing I know, but doesn't anyone else wonder why they are so old in the Bible?

I certainly respect your efforts but think it may be more credible if you kept the Burckle dated to 2800BC, a possible candidate for sure for the Biblical flood and looked at more localised events in the time frame of 2000BC as a trigger for the North sea events.

Alewyn, I do agree there is a chance Joseph could be Imhotep. I think the timeframe problem can again be seen in an example by Herodotus when he places (according to the Egyptian priests) the building of the Great Pyramid into the Iron Age. This has been completely discounted but why would he be relayed this information?

Why is a 2600BC event placed into a 1000BC context? I don't expect an answer but more something to think about, ancient events being bought forward in time.

The famine of the 4.2 kiloyear event and the end of the Old Kingdom in Egypt could describe the famine in Egypt at the time of Joseph, again I believe ancient memories have been bought forward in time when written. We can see this in many names used when writing about ancient events the newer names are usually mentioned. This though can only really be conciled if we could bring the building of the pyramids down to a similar time. All round I think a time frame of 2200BC for the building of the Great Pyramid fits much better in time.

2300-2200BC for Joseph

2400BC for Abraham

2600BC for Eber (first Hebrew)

2800-1700BC for Noah

Incredibly enough Piazzi Smyth, who I regard as very knowledgable on the Great Pyramid comes to this same conclusion.

That the erection of the Great Pyramid had some connection with the constellations is not at all improbable. We have already seen that Mr. Proctor prefers the date 3350 B.C. to the later one of 2170 B.C. for the building of the pyramid. The latter date would seem, however, to be the more probable one. That it was erected during the reign of Cheops † is almost universally admitted; and, although the time when he reigned has not been satisfactorily established, there are grounds for believing it to have been about 2200 B.C. Prof. C. Piazzi Smyth affirms that "the only monumental conclusion formed by comparing the quarry marks of the Great Pyramid with whatever is to be trusted, or is tolerably agreed upon among Egyptologists, and both of them with an astronomical date of the buildings,—can be no other than that two of the kings of the Fourth Dynasty of Egyptian history—Shofo and Nu-Shofo by name—lived through a period including the epoch of 2170 B.C." * It is true that, as Prof. Smyth points out, this date differs from that fixed by nearly all modern Egyptologists, † although it agrees very nearly with the date 2228 B.C., assigned for the commencement of the Fourth Dynasty by Mr. Wm. Osburn, the author of the "Monumental History of Egypt." It is consistent, moreover, with the chronological facts given by Dr. Birch.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/osgp/osgp07.htm

2200BC is the date assigned to the Great Ziggurat of Ur.

Off that..

The Oera Linda Book, known in Frisian as Thet Oera Linda Bok, came to light in 1867 when Cornelis Over de Linden (1811–1874) handed the manuscript, claimed to have been kept in the Over de Linden family for generations, over to Eelco Verwijs (1830–1880), the provincial librarian of Friesland, for translation and publication. Verwijs rejected the manuscript

Abe - Tell me why someone who worked at the library, translated and rejected the manuscript would be involved with the hoax and supposedly wrote it (according to Jensma)?

François HaverSchmidt, Eelco Verwijs and Cornelis over de Linden intended their forgery of an Old Frisian manuscript, later known as the Oera Linda Book, to be a temporary hoax to fool some nationalist Frisians and orthodox Christians and as an experiential exemplary exercise in reading the Holy Bible in a non-fundamentalist, symbolical way.

http://www.reference-global.com/doi/abs/10.1515/FABL.2007.019

[The Puzzler]

http://www.akhlah.com/history_tradition/torah_timeline.php

You can see in the list above how Noah is born 2700BC but the flood is not until 2102BC.

That to me says a big flood of around 2700BC has been aligned with another flood around 2100BC which the Bible has recorded as the time of the Flood, when in fact, the real flood happened around 2700-2800BC.

The Biblical Flood mentioned in the Bible placed into a 2100BC timeframe could in fact be the recollection and placing in time of the 4.1 kiloyear event in timeframe but memory in thier history of the one in 2800BC.

I really believe this factor leads to the whole time frame problem of the Bible.

Shulgi they say now built the Great Ziggurat of Ur, son of Ur-Nammu, often thought to be Nimrod.

In the time of Shulgi in the month of May there was a lunar eclipse and also a solar eclipse, very unusual omens for the time.

This event describes to me a connection to the Phaethon myth since Shulgi was a King of Babylon and if he built the ziggurat for the reasons they say in the Bible, it is possibly him that is referred to as the fallen King of Babylon.

It is mentioned my ancient writers (I cant find it right now but will, that the Phaethon myth occurred during an eclipse).

Because also at this time we have the 4.2 kiloyear event which changed climate and sparked famine and fire. (Part of the Phaethon myth) At this time we have the changes in the North Sea associated with the Bond Effect in the North Atlantic, effective enough events to cause the great Dynasty of Akkad and the Old Kingdom of Egypt to collapse. It is this event I think would have been immortilised in the memories of men and it is this event that is spoken of in the OLB imo.

[The Puzzler]

I was checking out the links to it and I think its a bloody good effort mate, I would love to write a book and see it's about the effects this tsunami had.

I'd love to know more how you came to the date for the Burckle for when you say because I think that that is a major hurdle here for acceptablility.

It is undated true as I said to Abe.

Let's see how they have concluded the age of the Burckle Crater....

But they might have more trouble believing one of the scientists, Bruce Masse, an environmental archaeologist at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico. He thinks he can say precisely when the comet fell: on the morning of May 10, 2807 B.C.

Dr. Masse analyzed 175 flood myths from around the world, and tried to relate them to known and accurately dated natural events like solar eclipses and volcanic eruptions. Among other evidence, he said, 14 flood myths specifically mention a full solar eclipse, which could have been the one that occurred in May 2807 B.C.

Half the myths talk of a torrential downpour, Dr. Masse said. A third talk of a tsunami. Worldwide they describe hurricane force winds and darkness during the storm. All of these could come from a mega-tsunami.

Of course, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof, Dr. Masse said, and were not there yet.

That gels with the 2800BC flood in Sumeria but don't forget we have a noted solar eclipse in the time of Shulgi, the time of the Oera Linda flood as well as many other evidences that place the events into the 2200BC timeframe rather than a 2800BC one.

The 2800BC flood in Sumerian King List may have been localised only anyway and not a candidate for the Burckle Crater impact so possibly couldn't be used to date it off.

So, all that means neither your date for the Burckle or the against date of 2800BC is known.

So, I guess that really means we cannot discount your date for it at all because when it boils down to it, the real date is not known.

Edit to add link http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/science/14WAVE.html?_r=1&pagewanted=2

Edited July 10, 2010 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I like this painting, it reveals many things.

Firstly that Asclepius is at the fore of the painting, imo a reference to a time when the Sun was in Ophiuchus, the zodiac sign we don't include in our 12 but sits near Scorpio. It is the sign of the healer who could bring life to the dead as Asclepius could, the forerunner of all religions based in that, ie: Eleusian Mysteries. He is equated with Imhotep. He is a son of Apollo, a son of the Sun God.

Next is the corona of Ariadne in the sky, the Corona constellation that sits near Orphiuchus. It could hide a timeframe.

Anyway, of most interest in this topic is Ariadne herself, how much more Royal Britannia do you want her?

She even has her Crown Jewels. Her ginger blonde hair and clothing colour is very unique to the Northern European area and her father is Minos or should that be Minno....

Painted by Titian, an Italian.

All a bit The Da Vinci Code I know but Ariadne is portrayed like that and there is most likely a reason for it. To me she looks very Anglo-Saxon. That she marries Dionysus fits too since the liberty theme for Dionysus as Bacchus and Father Liber, the Liberator is in line with Friesian liberty ideals.

[The Puzzler]

Sorry for so many posts in a row, comes from being on the other side of the world. Just babbling on with some thoughts.

Maybe a year equals a month in the Bible.

A man who was 900 years, if months would be 75 really. Makes much more logic. Same as the Sumerian King List, is is more than likely a cycle of the moon that determines a timed portion, maybe first called a year or confused to a year in translation.

Apparently the Flood occurred: The forty days and nights of rainfall which covered the face of earth with water in Noah's time ended on Kislev 27 of the year 1656 from creation (2105 BCE. The flood itself lasted a full year, as related in Genesis 6-8).

2105 BC the flood ended. Less than 100 years from the date given in the OLB.

I think therefore it is quite likely that an event from 2200-2100 BC has been remembered as the Deluge but also a vague knowledge about the prior ones still exists.

If we recall Plato's words he says that Atlantis sank (not implying this is Atlantis, just saying what he said in relation to something) in the 3rd deluge before Deucalion and that only one deluge was remembered but there had been many before.

[The Puzzler]

Old Kingdom, Egypt - All indications are that the "collapse" of the Old Kingdom is related economic/political factors. Am unaware of evidence of catastrophic planetary events impacting this situation.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4.2_kiloyear_event

Aftermath:

In ca. 2150 BC the Old Kingdom was hit by a series of exceptionally low Nile floods, which was instrumental in the sudden collapse of centralized government in ancient Egypt.[14] Famines, social disorder, and fragmentation during a period of approximately 40 years were followed by a phase of rehabilitation and restoration of order in various provinces.

If we think about this climate change event and also the weather patterns it would have bought including extreme heat, drying up of rivers and lakes and fertile areas resulting in famine and migration, extreme rain and storms it doesn't seem hard to think how much this would have affected everyone all over the world.

I believe there is no reason also we cannot place the Burckle event into it either based on the dating technique used to give it it's timeframe.

http://archaeology.about.com/od/climatechange/a/masse_king_4.htm

I have CyberSky downloaded, now if you want to type in 2193BC and in the month of May around the date of the 15th ( I placed that date in based on the OLB and the eclipse date of Shulgi, have a look at what you can see, I nearly just fell off my seat...

What it shows is a conjunction of...get this...Neptune, Mars, the Sun, Moon, Mercury and Venus. That is quite amazing. You can see the whole 6 lined up in a row.

I recall these parts of the Phaethon myth...

Nonnus, Dionysiaca 38. 90 ff :

"[Hermes addresses Dionysos :] `So great a marvel ancient [an eclipse] eternal Khronos (Time) our foster-father has never brought, since Phaethon, struck by the steam of fire divine, fell tumbling half-burnt from Helios’s lightbearing chariot.'

During an amazing eclipse, maybe of more than one planet, like 5 or 6...

and this bit:

Look! Nyx (Night) is driving Hemera (Day) from the noonday sky, and the sun’s orb as it plunges toward the earth draws in its train the Astera (Stars).

So, as the night is driving the day from the sky, the sun is being covered by the moon during the eclipse- the suns orb that we can see, the bright corona has the Astera, stars in it's train, that is, to me, the stars are in a row, a train, behind the Sun. The darkness of the eclipse has made it possible to see the planets aligned.

This imo is enough evidence to suggest that the timeframe of 2193BC was the time of Phaethon, just as I have been saying here.

CyberSky only takes a moment to download, free software, I found that line up with in 10 minutes of finding it on Google. You can all see it.

This is the Phaethon site and has most writings about Phaethon.

http://www.theoi.com/Titan/Phaethon.html

It is very likely the Phaethon comet if it is one, appeared at the same time as this amazing celestial event that would not have been forgotten, which onsets at the same time as the 4.2 kiloyear event and the 4th Bond effect = super huge cataclysms recorded in myth happening c. 2193BC.

At 2493BC same date there is a huge cluster in Gemini - Venus, Mercury, Mars and the Sun in Gemini.

I have to study this thing some more to really get it.

Just for interest sake I put in 21 Dec 2012 and another amazing conjunction showed, just like Jenkins says will happen, through the Milky Way, another line of planets.

I'll just add this too:

There are, in fact, four electrical contacts by Venus during this period, 52 solar years apart. The last, of 2193 BC, brings a 200 year climatic downturn to Mesopotamia and Egypt.

Edited July 10, 2010 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Puzz, you said:

"Alewyn may have taken some liberties but in actual fact the Burckle Crater remains undated.

Burckle Crater has not yet been dated by radiometric analysis of its sediments."

Believe me, I do know it's not been dated, and that's why I asked Alewyn for physical proof. OK, so Alewyn rented a sub, dived to the bottom of the Indian Ocean and took samples. Then he analyzed them in his private laboratory, and found out the Burckle Impact crater dates form 2193 BC.

Or... did he just stretch that date of 2800 BC date so it would fit better into his theory? Look, I know how it works; you find something, but it's just several centuries too old or too young for your pet theory, so you say that scientists are wrong, that it's all a conspiracy to hide the truth, and all that bs.

You asked me:

"Abe - Tell me why someone who worked at the library, translated and rejected the manuscript would be involved with the hoax and supposedly wrote it (according to Jensma)?"

I already showed you:

LINK

and it's on page 5 of Jensma's summary of "The Masked God - Francois Haverschmidt and the Oera Linda Book" if I remember correctly (check the thumbnails).

.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Puzz, you said:

"Alewyn may have taken some liberties but in actual fact the Burckle Crater remains undated.

Burckle Crater has not yet been dated by radiometric analysis of its sediments."

Believe me, I do know it's not been dated, and that's why I asked Alewyn for physical proof. OK, so Alewyn rented a sub, dived to the bottom of the Indian Ocean and took samples. Then he analyzed them in his private laboratory, and found out the Burckle Impact crater dates form 2193 BC.

Or... did he just stretch that date of 2800 BC date so it would fit better into his theory? Look, I know how it works; you find something, but it's just several centuries too old or too young for your pet theory, so you say that scientists are wrong, that it's all a conspiracy to hide the truth, and all that bs.

You asked me:

"Abe - Tell me why someone who worked at the library, translated and rejected the manuscript would be involved with the hoax and supposedly wrote it (according to Jensma)?"

I already showed you:

LINK

and it's on page 5 of Jensma's summary of "The Masked God - Francois Haverschmidt and the Oera Linda Book" if I remember correctly (check the thumbnails).

.

My computer hates opening 4 MB pdf files, don't you have an answer of your own instead of sending me to some other guys opinion, one sentence will do.

I asked Alweyn also how he came up with it - I can, as I showed you I believe it can be tied into myth with the 4.2 kiloyear event at 2200BC and if I do what Masse did I come up with a date of 2193BC, he has done no more and no less that compare myths and look at them in a astrological way to determine a time frame and I just gave one too 15th May 2193, what makes his date more likely to be it than mine, in fact, on CyberSky on his date I can find nothing that appears out of the ordinary but I'm not sure how Alewyn himself got there...

[Abramelin]

My computer hates opening 4 MB pdf files, don't you have an answer of your own instead of sending me to some other guys opinion, one sentence will do.

I asked Alweyn also how he came up with it - I can, as I showed you I believe it can be tied into myth with the 4.2 kiloyear event at 2200BC and if I do what Masse did I come up with a date of 2193BC, he has done no more and no less that compare myths and look at them in a astrological way to determine a time frame and I just gave one too 15th May 2193, what makes his date more likely to be it than mine, in fact, on CyberSky on his date I can find nothing that appears out of the ordinary but I'm not sure how Alewyn himself got there...

Yes, and that's why I uploaded screenshots of the pages of the summary of the PDF, and that's why I said, "check the thumbnails".

(It's 131 kB)

And what are 'answers of your own'?

I don't even need a linguists opinion, but you and Alewyn seem to be stuck in it.

I prefer some physical proof, like what Alewyn said about Thera, the Buckle Crater, and other examples of the OLB script found elsewhere. His idea about the effects of Thera on the North Sea are wrong (my opinion), the Faroe Islands were covered in ice during the last ice age (and it wasn't some Atlantis sized tropical island) , where is his physical proof of his dating of the Buckle Crater, and where are those other examples of the OLB script??

Oh, and where is the location of Atland/Aldland (= 'old land'). Even according to Ottema it must have been the dry sea bed of the present North Sea, but Alewyn says it's somewhere 'in the west', not the North Sea. Well, then the OLB conveniently leaves out the true location of Atland. That's like me writing a book about ancient Europe, tell people there also was some continent called "America" that sank then and then (and just before 'my ancestors' started writing the chronicle),and never mention America or its location again...

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Edited July 10, 2010 by Abramelin

[Swede]

Puzzler - Re:"If we think about this climate change event and also the weather patterns it would have bought including extreme heat, drying up of rivers and lakes and fertile areas resulting in famine and migration, extreme rain and storms it doesn't seem hard to think how much this would have affected everyone all over the world."

While local climatic variations would appear to have impacted the Old Kingdom, the process began quite some time earlier. The proverbial straw. Note reference to "region".

"The Fifth Dynasty began with Userkaf (2465–2458 BCE), who initiated reforms that weakened the Pharaoh and central government.

Egypt's expanding interests in trade goods such as ebony, incense such as Myrrh and frankincense, gold, copper and other useful metals inspired the ancient Egyptians to build suitable ships for navigation of the open sea. They traded with Lebanon for cedar and traveled the length of the Red Sea to the Kingdom of Punt, which is modern day Ethiopia and Somalia for ebony, ivory and aromatic resins. Ship builders of that era did not use pegs (treenails) or metal fasteners, but relied on rope to keep their ships assembled. Planks and the superstructure were tightly tied and bound together.

After the reigns of Userkaf and Sahure, civil wars arose as the powerful nomarchs (regional governors) no longer belonged to the royal family. The worsening civil conflict undermined unity and energetic government and also caused famines. But regional autonomy and civil wars were not the only causes of this decline. The massive building projects of the Fourth Dynasty had exceeded the capacity of the treasury and populace and, therefore, weakened the Kingdom at its roots.

The final blow was a severe drought in the region that resulted in a drastic drop in precipitation between 2200 and 2150 BCE, which in turn prevented the normal flooding of the Nile.[7] The result was the collapse of the Old Kingdom followed by decades of famine and strife. An important inscription on the tomb of Ankhtifi, a nomarch during the early First Intermediate Period, describes the pitiful state of the country when famine stalked the land."

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Kingdom

Also, the reference to extreme heat, etc. would not appear to be evidenced in the temperature levels presented below. Note the period of circa 4200 BP. Actually a bit of a cooling trend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holocene_Temperature_Variations.png

Of course tying climatic factors to planetary alignment would be quite speculative, as are mythological associations.

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[Abramelin]

Puzzler didn't want me to quote from others, but to give my own opinion...

Right.

The next will be a shocker for many, but I just nearly p***ed my pants, hahaha!!

Ok, so I thought, let's read the whole OLB to find out if there is a description of the location of Atland/Aldland.

I did, well, the parts that mention Atland/Aldland.

Puzzler also said that knowing the Dutch language is of no importance... right.

I tend to disagree.

Here we go:

All this is inscribed not only on the Waraburgt, but also on the Burgt Stavia, which lies behind the Port of Stavre.

When Teunis wished to return home, he went first towards Denmark; but he might not land there, for so the

mother had ordered, nor was he to land at Flyland nor anywhere about there. In this way he would have lost all his people by want and hardship, so he landed at night to steal and sailed on by day. Thus coasting along, he at length arrived at the colony of Kadik * (Cadiz), so called because it was built with a stone quay. Here they bought all kinds of stores, but Tuntia the Burgtmaagd would not allow them to settle there. When they were ready they began to disagree. Teunis wished to sail through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea, and enter the service of the rich Egyptian king, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda's people. Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. As the two cousins could not agree, Teunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finns and Magyars followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda's people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall hear of Teunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka.

Neef Teunis coasted through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea. When Atland was submerged there was much suffering also on the shores of the Mediterranean, on which account many of Finda's people, Krekalanders, and people from Lyda's land, came to us. On the other hand, many of our people went to Lyda's land. The result of all this was that the Krekalanders far and wide were lost to the superintendence of the mother. Teunis had reckoned on this, and had therefore wished to find there a good

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb24.htm

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_the002thet01_01/_the002thet01_01_0025.php#032

But then I thought: what was the original OLB word for Mediterreanean??

I checked Ottema's translation, but even though he talks about Tunis travelling through the Mediterranean, the OLB text itself talks about 'middel.se"... And hello, there WAS a Middelsee/Middel See/Middel Zee (='sea in the middle') in Friesland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelzee

http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelsee

No Mediterranean, sorry, just a wide branch of the North Sea splitting the ancient Frisan territory in half.

And what about 'Egiptaland' where Nep Tunis wanted to go to? That MUST be ancient Egypt, right??

OMG, look here: Frisian Egypt, hahahaha !!!

Egypte is een buurtschap in de gemeente Ooststellingwerf, in de Nederlandse provincie Friesland.

"Egypt is an area/barrio (I dont know the english term for that) in the municipality of Ooststellingwerf, in the Dutch province of Friesland".

--

Oooooook, but where is Kadik (Cadiz/Gades/ or whatever spelling pleases you) ?

It's a dike, a DIKE. I hope you will remember what the Frisian and later the Dutch national passtime was? Building dikes. And no, we did never stick our fingers in holes in dikes; that's nothing but an American phantasy.

http://home.planet.nl/~%20dijkh287/kastelen/wijdenes/opmerk2a.htm

Kadijk = Kadik (and NOT Cadiz/Gades)

--

Krekaland = Griekenland = Greece?? Heh, no way hosee. It's a land of creeks.

Kreek = Frisian/Dutch for creek.

In case you don't know much about Holland, if we did nothing to fight the sea and rivers, this area would be a land of rivers, creeks, marshes, and forests.

Some pics (jesus, I want to watch football):

Aaaand, omg, then we have that little river called "De Linde", it's source near Ooststellingwerf ("Egypt', hahahaha)

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ooststellingwerf

You will remember, "Over de Linde", or beter known as "Oera Linda"???

http://www.stellingwerven.dds.nl/toerisme/linde/Linde.htm

----

Puzzler, you really NEED to understand Dutch to be able to understand this whole Oera Linda Book is a big hilarious hoax.

I want to watch football, so I stopped researching.

Good luck.

Last thing I'd like to add: think small, not big like in global.

Ottema thought he found something big, like continental big, but is was merely local, if anything at all.

And check these sites, please. They are about floodings of The Netherlands; many, may people died:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grote_Mandrenke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuiderzee

I now tend to believe that that whole Oera Linda Book was nothing but a hoax based on local disasterous floodings killing many thousands of people, combined together with the huge pride of the Frisians and their hate of NOT being seen as a separate people (apart from the Dutch, that is).

My hope is that some of their sources were based on ancient accounts of the flooding of Doggerland/Dogger Island.

Qoais could not distinguish between me posting as a drunk or as a sober guy.

I'm, quite p***ed now..

.

Edited July 10, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Yes, and that's why I uploaded screenshots of the pages of the summary of the PDF, and that's why I said, "check the thumbnails".

(It's 131 kB)

And what are 'answers of your own'?

I don't even need a linguists opinion, but you and Alewyn seem to be stuck in it.

I prefer some physical proof, like what Alewyn said about Thera, the Buckle Crater, and other examples of the OLB script found elsewhere. His idea about the effects of Thera on the North Sea are wrong (my opinion), the Faroe Islands were covered in ice during the last ice age (and it wasn't some Atlantis sized tropical island) , where is his physical proof of his dating of the Buckle Crater, and where are those other examples of the OLB script??

Oh, and where is the location of Atland/Aldland (= 'old land'). Even according to Ottema it must have been the dry sea bed of the present North Sea, but Alewyn says it's somewhere 'in the west', not the North Sea. Well, then the OLB conveniently leaves out the true location of Atland. That's like me writing a book about ancient Europe, tell people there also was some continent called "America" that sank then and then (and just before 'my ancestors' started writing the chronicle),and never mention America or its location again...

.

Your own answer - what is it...you know, you think about something and come up with an answer, whether it be someone elses or not, its your answer...

You raved on heaps of stuff I'll get back to but never answered my question which I thought was crucial to the whole hoaxing thing...

The Oera Linda Book, known in Frisian as Thet Oera Linda Bok, came to light in 1867 when Cornelis Over de Linden (1811–1874) handed the manuscript, claimed to have been kept in the Over de Linden family for generations, over to Eelco Verwijs (1830–1880), the provincial librarian of Friesland, for translation and publication. Verwijs rejected the manuscript

Abe - Tell me why someone who worked at the library, translated and rejected the manuscript would be involved with the hoax and supposedly wrote it (according to Jensma)?

François HaverSchmidt, Eelco Verwijs and Cornelis over de Linden intended their forgery of an Old Frisian manuscript, later known as the Oera Linda Book, to be a temporary hoax to fool some nationalist Frisians and orthodox Christians and as an experiential exemplary exercise in reading the Holy Bible in a non-fundamentalist, symbolical way.

I'm not going to read a 5 page pdf file to find something that someone else has written, its a simple question to you.

Why would someone who rejected the manuscript be the writer?

[Qoais]

Qoais could not distinguish between me posting as a drunk or as a sober guy.

That's because you're just so clever, booze cannot dim your intellectual brilliance!!

[Abramelin]

Your own answer - what is it...you know, you think about something and come up with an answer, whether it be someone elses or not, its your answer...

You raved on heaps of stuff I'll get back to but never answered my question which I thought was crucial to the whole hoaxing thing...

The Oera Linda Book, known in Frisian as Thet Oera Linda Bok, came to light in 1867 when Cornelis Over de Linden (1811–1874) handed the manuscript, claimed to have been kept in the Over de Linden family for generations, over to Eelco Verwijs (1830–1880), the provincial librarian of Friesland, for translation and publication. Verwijs rejected the manuscript

Abe - Tell me why someone who worked at the library, translated and rejected the manuscript would be involved with the hoax and supposedly wrote it (according to Jensma)?

François HaverSchmidt, Eelco Verwijs and Cornelis over de Linden intended their forgery of an Old Frisian manuscript, later known as the Oera Linda Book, to be a temporary hoax to fool some nationalist Frisians and orthodox Christians and as an experiential exemplary exercise in reading the Holy Bible in a non-fundamentalist, symbolical way.

I'm not going to read a 5 page pdf file to find something that someone else has written, its a simple question to you.

Why would someone who rejected the manuscript be the writer?

OK, short answer: it's part of the plot.

Another short answer: "Heheh, I didn't write it, I only translated it. Why should I be accused of this, I already rejected it, right?". Get my drift?

OK, serious now: even Jensma did not believe the OLB was meant as hoax, but that is was meant to teach people a lesson about religion, but when Ottema fell deeply in love with the manusucript, fiercely believing it was nothing but a real ancient history, things went a bit out of hand.. No one ever expected the OLB to be accepted as a genuine, authentic document about some ancient history, that was never the intention at all. So when things finally did go out of control, no one wanted to say, 'Hey, it was me who created it, I didn't mean it, soooorry !!" No one wants to be accused of being a fraud.

Again, you don't have to read the whole pdf file; the thumbnails I posted link to larger images, each like 150 kB.

The tons of text you post take longer too load than those images (and the 5th image alone should do it).

But be my guest, and repeat for the third time you don't want to read the pdf-file...

Also just skip what I just found out (Middelsee= NOT Mediterranean, but an ancient branch of the North Sea, splitting Friesland in half, and so on...).

.

Edited July 11, 2010 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Puzzler - Re:"If we think about this climate change event and also the weather patterns it would have bought including extreme heat, drying up of rivers and lakes and fertile areas resulting in famine and migration, extreme rain and storms it doesn't seem hard to think how much this would have affected everyone all over the world."

While local climatic variations would appear to have impacted the Old Kingdom, the process began quite some time earlier. The proverbial straw. Note reference to "region".

"The Fifth Dynasty began with Userkaf (2465–2458 BCE), who initiated reforms that weakened the Pharaoh and central government.

Egypt's expanding interests in trade goods such as ebony, incense such as Myrrh and frankincense, gold, copper and other useful metals inspired the ancient Egyptians to build suitable ships for navigation of the open sea. They traded with Lebanon for cedar and traveled the length of the Red Sea to the Kingdom of Punt, which is modern day Ethiopia and Somalia for ebony, ivory and aromatic resins. Ship builders of that era did not use pegs (treenails) or metal fasteners, but relied on rope to keep their ships assembled. Planks and the superstructure were tightly tied and bound together.

After the reigns of Userkaf and Sahure, civil wars arose as the powerful nomarchs (regional governors) no longer belonged to the royal family. The worsening civil conflict undermined unity and energetic government and also caused famines. But regional autonomy and civil wars were not the only causes of this decline. The massive building projects of the Fourth Dynasty had exceeded the capacity of the treasury and populace and, therefore, weakened the Kingdom at its roots.

The final blow was a severe drought in the region that resulted in a drastic drop in precipitation between 2200 and 2150 BCE, which in turn prevented the normal flooding of the Nile.[7] The result was the collapse of the Old Kingdom followed by decades of famine and strife. An important inscription on the tomb of Ankhtifi, a nomarch during the early First Intermediate Period, describes the pitiful state of the country when famine stalked the land."

Source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Kingdom

Also, the reference to extreme heat, etc. would not appear to be evidenced in the temperature levels presented below. Note the period of circa 4200 BP. Actually a bit of a cooling trend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Holocene_Temperature_Variations.png

Of course tying climatic factors to planetary alignment would be quite speculative, as are mythological associations.

.

Sure, but it does say the final blow was the severe drought and a drastic drop in precipitation. That is climatic and whether polital upheavals and such did contribute it was this blow that ended it. The talk of famine is widespread and in many refences mythologically, biblically and historically. It really should be taken into consideration as a major factor in ancient times as a creator of change and disorder, upheaval and change in culture, population and the way people lived and if they continued to live in areas. It is with warm, one of the most changable things that can happen and it is remembered.

Famine led Therans to settle in Libya, famine led Etruscans to settle in Italy, they say of old etc etc. The event that created the famine would have been seen as a huge event.

These events were aligned with changes in the sky, whether or not we see any validity in it or whether we know it did not particularly cause those changes, in ancient times they did.

An eclipse meant a change of King or a new mythic story was created, orders changed in religious codes.

A planetary alignment bought change to them.

A comet bought fear and a knowing of bad changes, many comets throughout time became despised because their appearance heralded in terrible things.

This appearance of the comet is also noted in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. Eilmer of Malmesbury may have seen Halley previously in 989, as he wrote of it in 1066: "You've come, have you? ... You've come, you source of tears to many mothers, you evil. I hate you! It is long since I saw you; but as I see you now you are much more terrible, for I see you brandishing the downfall of my country. I hate you!"

They were terrified of them in fact.

Note also that is an Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, the language I believe underlies the OLB.

I am tying it in that way of the planetary alignments and mythology because that is quite valid to do in these kinds of situations.

Masse himself to date the Burckle Crater has used nothing else than planetary alignment and mythology, I gave you think link.

His (Masse) date of 2800BC is accepted on these grounds but in fact 2193BC offers just as many, if not more reasons to select this date if using planetary alignments mentioned in myths.

[The Puzzler]

OK, short answer: it's part of the plot.

Another short answer: "Heheh, I didn't write it, I only translated it. Why should I be accused of this, I already rejected it, right?". Get my drift?

OK, serious now: even Jensma did not believe the OLB was meant as hoax, but that is was meant to teach people a lesson about religion, but when Ottema fell deeply in love with the manusucript, fiercely believing it was nothing but a real ancient history, things went a bit out of hand.. No one ever expected the OLB to be accepted as a genuine, authentic document about some ancient history, that was never the intention at all. So when things finally did go out of control, no one wanted to say, 'Hey, it was me who created it, I didn't mean it, soooorry !!" No one wants to be accused of being a fraud.

Again, you don't have to read the whole pdf file; the thumbnails I posted link to larger images, each like 150 kB.

The tons of text you post take longer too load than those images (and the 5th image alone should do it).

But be my guest, and repeat for the third time you don't want to read the pdf-file...

Also just skip what I just found out (Middelsee= NOT Mediterranean, but an ancient branch of the North Sea, splitting Friesland in half, and so on...).

.

I would read it, my computer won't open them, it needs to find a file off the internet to open it and it can never find one....not sure, not very computech myself.

I will click on the links to see the thumbnail bigger though, didnt know I could do that.

I know, sorry I am guilty of making long posts, I know, so much to say. Usually I have had a few too many wines myself...

ah right, so he didnt have to take any blame for writing it cause people would think like he translated it....ok gotta go do lunch but I'll be back to comment on your posts soon Abe, thanks.

[Swede]

Puzzler - Re: "Masse himself to date the Burckle Crater has used nothing else than planetary alignment and mythology, I gave you think link.

His (Masse) date of 2800BC is accepted on these grounds but in fact 2193BC offers just as many, if not more reasons to select this date if using planetary alignments mentioned in myths." Puzzler

This is where one may need to exercise a bit of caution. I am familiar with Masse's work, and to assert that the date in question has been "accepted" would be an overstatement. The subfield itself is in its infancy and has not yet demonstrated significant reliability.

While Tom King's review of the paper is not at all overly critical, the following excerpts should be noted;

"In most cases where impacts are well documented, however, no pertinent archaeological or ethnographic studies have been reported, and in most places where myths or archaeology suggest the possibility of cataclysms, no obvious craters or tektite fields have been yet documented by geophysicists".

"Named Burckle Crater and discovered only recently by Masse's colleague Dallas Abbott from Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory, it is a little under 30 km in diameter and is visible on bathymetric maps. Stratigraphic cores taken near there suggest that it is an impact crater, but are not definitive".

http://archaeology.about.com/od/climatechange/a/masse_king.htm

Nor has the crater been accurately dated.

Thus, while Masse's work is interesting, it has quite some way to go before being considered definitive.

Also, the interpretation of the dunes has been debated, with some believing the dunes to be of aeolian derivation. I believe I have a reference to this somewhere...

That the earth has been affected by asteroid/meteor impacts is hardly debatable, but factors such as timing, location, and areas/degrees of effect would appear to be subject to further research.

.

[Oniomancer]

I would read it, my computer won't open them, it needs to find a file off the internet to open it and it can never find one....not sure, not very computech myself.

I will click on the links to see the thumbnail bigger though, didnt know I could do that.

Puzz, you need Adobe Acrobat reader to view PDFs. Its a free download.

http://get.adobe.com/reader/

But then PDFs used to lockup my whole system on my old comps so if yours is a little slow, you still might have problems. I recommend using screencaptures to save them if you need to, otherwise the download can take forever and the files are huge.

There is a google HTML version (which they do for many PDFs) but half the text is mangled:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Dy1sqzVzwTMJ:dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/theology/2004/g.t.jensma/GemaskeerdeGod.PDF+http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/theology/2004/g.t.jensma/GemaskeerdeGod.PDF&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Edited July 11, 2010 by Oniomancer

[The Puzzler]

Puzzler - Re: "Masse himself to date the Burckle Crater has used nothing else than planetary alignment and mythology, I gave you think link.

His (Masse) date of 2800BC is accepted on these grounds but in fact 2193BC offers just as many, if not more reasons to select this date if using planetary alignments mentioned in myths." Puzzler

This is where one may need to exercise a bit of caution. I am familiar with Masse's work, and to assert that the date in question has been "accepted" would be an overstatement. The subfield itself is in its infancy and has not yet demonstrated significant reliability.

While Tom King's review of the paper is not at all overly critical, the following excerpts should be noted;

"In most cases where impacts are well documented, however, no pertinent archaeological or ethnographic studies have been reported, and in most places where myths or archaeology suggest the possibility of cataclysms, no obvious craters or tektite fields have been yet documented by geophysicists".

"Named Burckle Crater and discovered only recently by Masse's colleague Dallas Abbott from Lamont Doherty Earth Observatory, it is a little under 30 km in diameter and is visible on bathymetric maps. Stratigraphic cores taken near there suggest that it is an impact crater, but are not definitive".

http://archaeology.about.com/od/climatechange/a/masse_king.htm

Nor has the crater been accurately dated.

Thus, while Masse's work is interesting, it has quite some way to go before being considered definitive.

Also, the interpretation of the dunes has been debated, with some believing the dunes to be of aeolian derivation. I believe I have a reference to this somewhere...

That the earth has been affected by asteroid/meteor impacts is hardly debatable, but factors such as timing, location, and areas/degrees of effect would appear to be subject to further research.

.

Mate, this is my point really too, the Burckle Crater impact has yet to find a true date, at the moment it is dated around 2800BC based on Masse's assumption.

OK, Alewyn has taken liberties to say it could have impacted 2193BC but he has found geological evidence (apparently) that seems to show the effects of chain reaction around the continents.

So, I say, OK, maybe the impact may have happened 2193BC if we use what Masse has used to find the date, in a way, trying to justify Alewyn using the date because I think it is highly probably it could have occurred then (2193BC) if at all.

It co-incided with the climate changes of the 4.2 kiloyear event and has been recorded in many myths, Phaethon is one, now, I believe. The impact of a meteor and the change in climate may have been seen as related to each other but probably were not.

The double eclipse of Shulgi in Babylon and 4.2 kiloyear event, subsequent fall of Akkad and the Old Kingdom and a possible meteor impact are all in relation to each other in myths and that is how I think it probably happened in reality too.

I take into consideration all the info carefully and weigh it up and to me this is not out of the question nor it is proven as true but it is an option.

[The Puzzler]

Puzz, you need Adobe Acrobat reader to view PDFs. Its a free download.

http://get.adobe.com/reader/

But then PDFs used to lockup my whole system on my old comps so if yours is a little slow, you still might have problems. I recommend using screencaptures to save them if you need to, otherwise the download can take forever and the files are huge.

There is a google HTML version (which they do for many PDFs) but half the text is mangled:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Dy1sqzVzwTMJ:dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/theology/2004/g.t.jensma/GemaskeerdeGod.PDF+http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/theology/2004/g.t.jensma/GemaskeerdeGod.PDF&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

Thanks so much, I don't think I have installed Adobe reader yet. This is a new computer but it's awful! It is very slow and runs Windows 7 which is terrible.

I will check out your suggestions, thanks again!

[The Puzzler]

Abe said: OK, short answer: it's part of the plot.

Another short answer: "Heheh, I didn't write it, I only translated it. Why should I be accused of this, I already rejected it, right?". Get my drift?

OK, serious now: even Jensma did not believe the OLB was meant as hoax, but that is was meant to teach people a lesson about religion, but when Ottema fell deeply in love with the manusucript, fiercely believing it was nothing but a real ancient history, things went a bit out of hand.. No one ever expected the OLB to be accepted as a genuine, authentic document about some ancient history, that was never the intention at all. So when things finally did go out of control, no one wanted to say, 'Hey, it was me who created it, I didn't mean it, soooorry !!" No one wants to be accused of being a fraud.

Teach people a lesson about religion....hmmm, possibly. Could be no more than a true account of the whole reasoning behind why deep down they disliked it and warned about Monks, loyal to pagan beliefs though, that would come with the territory.

If it was a lesson of the kind you say why add in history that wasn't real according to it being full of fantasies...

I'm yet to see what you really mean by this part:

Also just skip what I just found out (Middelsee= NOT Mediterranean, but an ancient branch of the North Sea, splitting Friesland in half, and so on...).

I think you refer to a mention of the Med. Sea in it that they say lies west, I couldn't figure out how the Med. would lie west...OK, I won't skip it, I don't skip much if I can help it...

I'll think some more on all that for now.

[The Puzzler]

Puzzler didn't want me to quote from others, but to give my own opinion...

Right.

The next will be a shocker for many, but I just nearly p***ed my pants, hahaha!!

Ok, so I thought, let's read the whole OLB to find out if there is a description of the location of Atland/Aldland.

I did, well, the parts that mention Atland/Aldland.

Puzzler also said that knowing the Dutch language is of no importance... right.

I tend to disagree.

Here we go:

All this is inscribed not only on the Waraburgt, but also on the Burgt Stavia, which lies behind the Port of Stavre.

When Teunis wished to return home, he went first towards Denmark; but he might not land there, for so the

mother had ordered, nor was he to land at Flyland nor anywhere about there. In this way he would have lost all his people by want and hardship, so he landed at night to steal and sailed on by day. Thus coasting along, he at length arrived at the colony of Kadik * (Cadiz), so called because it was built with a stone quay. Here they bought all kinds of stores, but Tuntia the Burgtmaagd would not allow them to settle there. When they were ready they began to disagree. Teunis wished to sail through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea, and enter the service of the rich Egyptian king, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda's people. Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. As the two cousins could not agree, Teunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finns and Magyars followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda's people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall hear of Teunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka.

Neef Teunis coasted through the straits to the Mediterranean Sea. When Atland was submerged there was much suffering also on the shores of the Mediterranean, on which account many of Finda's people, Krekalanders, and people from Lyda's land, came to us. On the other hand, many of our people went to Lyda's land. The result of all this was that the Krekalanders far and wide were lost to the superintendence of the mother. Teunis had reckoned on this, and had therefore wished to find there a good

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb24.htm

http://www.dbnl.org/tekst/_the002thet01_01/_the002thet01_01_0025.php#032

But then I thought: what was the original OLB word for Mediterreanean??

I checked Ottema's translation, but even though he talks about Tunis travelling through the Mediterranean, the OLB text itself talks about 'middel.se"... And hello, there WAS a Middelsee/Middel See/Middel Zee (='sea in the middle') in Friesland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelzee

http://fy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middelsee

No Mediterranean, sorry, just a wide branch of the North Sea splitting the ancient Frisan territory in half.

And what about 'Egiptaland' where Nep Tunis wanted to go to? That MUST be ancient Egypt, right??

OMG, look here: Frisian Egypt, hahahaha !!!

Egypte is een buurtschap in de gemeente Ooststellingwerf, in de Nederlandse provincie Friesland.

"Egypt is an area/barrio (I dont know the english term for that) in the municipality of Ooststellingwerf, in the Dutch province of Friesland".

--

Oooooook, but where is Kadik (Cadiz/Gades/ or whatever spelling pleases you) ?

It's a dike, a DIKE. I hope you will remember what the Frisian and later the Dutch national passtime was? Building dikes. And no, we did never stick our fingers in holes in dikes; that's nothing but an American phantasy.

http://home.planet.nl/~%20dijkh287/kastelen/wijdenes/opmerk2a.htm

Kadijk = Kadik (and NOT Cadiz/Gades)

--

Krekaland = Griekenland = Greece?? Heh, no way hosee. It's a land of creeks.

Kreek = Frisian/Dutch for creek.

In case you don't know much about Holland, if we did nothing to fight the sea and rivers, this area would be a land of rivers, creeks, marshes, and forests.

Some pics (jesus, I want to watch football):

Aaaand, omg, then we have that little river called "De Linde", it's source near Ooststellingwerf ("Egypt', hahahaha)

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ooststellingwerf

You will remember, "Over de Linde", or beter known as "Oera Linda"???

http://www.stellingwerven.dds.nl/toerisme/linde/Linde.htm

----

Puzzler, you really NEED to understand Dutch to be able to understand this whole Oera Linda Book is a big hilarious hoax.

I want to watch football, so I stopped researching.

Good luck.

Last thing I'd like to add: think small, not big like in global.

Ottema thought he found something big, like continental big, but is was merely local, if anything at all.

And check these sites, please. They are about floodings of The Netherlands; many, may people died:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grote_Mandrenke

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuiderzee

I now tend to believe that that whole Oera Linda Book was nothing but a hoax based on local disasterous floodings killing many thousands of people, combined together with the huge pride of the Frisians and their hate of NOT being seen as a separate people (apart from the Dutch, that is).

My hope is that some of their sources were based on ancient accounts of the flooding of Doggerland/Dogger Island.

Qoais could not distinguish between me posting as a drunk or as a sober guy.

I'm, quite p***ed now..

.

Ok, Ok, good post Abe.

I'm lost for words on the Egypte thing... for now.

I'll be back.

[TheSearcher]

Thanks so much, I don't think I have installed Adobe reader yet. This is a new computer but it's awful! It is very slow and runs Windows 7 which is terrible.

I will check out your suggestions, thanks again!

Windows 7 is a lot better than Vista, so count your blessings. As to it being slow, sometimes software runs, without you realizing it does, which is called "running in background". Things like your antivirus and firewall are like that. Sometimes the Computer manufacturer has his own software on there too. Some of these programs, can seriously slow down the performance of a computer.

If I were you, I would ask a computer Savvy person in your neck of the woods, to take a quick look at it and disable all the things you don't need or that are just pure Microsoft crap (like those damnable widgets they have). That might help you quite a bit. I'd help you out, if you were a bit closer, but seeing how you're on the other side of the world, that might be a bit difficult

[TheSearcher]

....

I keep coming back to my question: "How do you explain the chronology, dates and verifiable facts in the Oera Linda Book?" You can duck and dive all you want but most of the dates were not known in the 19th century. If they got the dates and other facts right or even “approximately right” then one must assume that the rest is also “approximately right". In my almost 300 pages of both scientific evidence and the old scribes I could not find a single instance where the OLB was wrong. It must indeed be one of the most astonishing "hoaxes" in the history of man.

As enough people have pointed out to you earlier in this thread, the facts and dates are not as crystal clear as you seem to believe. Take the controversial chronology around the Burckle Crater to name but one. And I think you'll find that more was known in the 19th century than we generally think.

.....

TheSearcher

And Abe is very correct about one thing, even nowadays, the Frisians are known for being able to spin quite a good yarn ;-), is is kind of their national sport indeed.

.....

So, you reckon the OLB is a fake, the Frisians are a bunch of lyers and I don't have the credentials to write about the subject. If you cannot convince, then discredit. This is the type of tactics we used when we were 8 year olds.

Perhaps you won't mind to share your impeccable credentials with us.

....

No need to get aggressive either mate, because that's about as 8 year old, as what you accuse Abe and me off. As far as I can tell neither myself nor Abe were attacking your credentials. And yes, the Frisians are known for spinning a bit of yarn, story telling is an art to the elder generation. That's just the way it is, you don't like it, well that's just too bad.

As to your reasons to be here, I figure it's not for peddling your books, because there are better ways to do that. I think you came here for some honest discussion and opinions, which in itself is quite admirable. But, like mentioned before, in this forum you better be ready to fight for your ideas and be ready to have said ideas taken apart and scrutinized. We, the "skeptics", (and yes I count myself amongst them), expect sources, proof and facts.

For the moment the OLB is not delivering, I'm sorry, everything is very debatable about this book. The origin of the book is an issue in itself, the etymology is dubious and debatable. I'm sorry it all screams hoax to me.

[Alewyn]

[

quote name='TheSearcher' date='12 July 2010 - 09:26 AM' timestamp='1278919609' post='3488971]

As enough people have pointed out to you earlier in this thread, the facts and dates are not as crystal clear as you seem to believe. Take the controversial chronology around the Burckle Crater to name but one. And I think you'll find that more was known in the 19th century than we generally think.

The reason I became upset is that, thanks to Abramelin, I am now the only participant on this website who is not anonymous (or at least do not feel anonymous). But, be that as it may, let us move on:

To recap, there are two points of departure in this debate viz.

1. The Oera Linda Book is a fake or a hoax because:

1.1 The language is too modern i.t.o. grammar and syntax

1.2 The etymology is naïve and even childlike,

1.3 There is no evidence of this language other than in the OLB, or

2. The Oera Linda Book (OLB) is authentic because:

2.1 The chronology is too accurate

2.2 Circumstantial historical evidence supports the claims made in the OLB

2.3 Post 19th century discoveries provide corroborating evidence that were not known in 1867.

A cursory comparison of the language used in the OLB and the historical facts claimed are that these two issues are mutually exclusive. This need not necessarily be the case and there may be any number of scenarios that could explain the language. As I am no linguist or etymologist, I shall leave that argument to people more knowledgeable on the subject and confine myself to the issue as to why I consider the OLB to be authentic. So, let me share my version of logic from my book (Chapter1) with you: (I am afraid I tried to summarize this before, but it does not seem to work)

Chapter 1

The Near Extinction Impact

A Global Disaster

Today, at the end of the first decade of the 21st century, it is a well-researched, documented and accepted fact that a cataclysmic event happened in the Near, Middle, and Far East some 4200 years ago, in ca 2200 BC. From the Aegean and Anatolia to Egypt and across Mesopotamia to the Indus and the Far East archaeologists found traces of the sudden collapse of whole cities and civilizations. These findings are supported by ice core analyses from Antarctica, Greenland, Mount Kilimanjaro and the Himalayas. Deep-sea core drilling in the North Atlantic and tree rings in North America all point to a sudden climate change in the latter half of the Holocene. It is also remarkable that all these very ancient civilizations older than say, 4500 years, were remote from any oceans or seas. There appear to have been relatively little coastal development at the time or, alternatively, very little remained thereof.

While archaeological evidence points to widespread famine and a resultant mass migration after ca 2200 BC, climate change and the much-hypothesized resultant drought alone cannot explain the almost instantaneous collapse of these ancient societies. The onset of a drought-induced famine would have been somewhat slower.

The French archaeologist, Claude FA Schaeffer, concluded as far back as 1948 that earthquakes throughout the region caused the initial collapse while the British archaeologist, James Mellaart, later identified drought and migrations as the culprits. Prof Harvey Weiss, professor of Near Eastern Archaeology at Yale University in New Haven, Connecticut, has been involved for many years in the archaeological work at Tell Leilan, a city of the Bronze Age Akkadian Empire on the Habur Plains of Northern Mesopotamia in modern-day Syria. He concluded that the city was suddenly abandoned in 2193 BC – exactly the same year in which the Oera Linda Book claims that the old Frisian civilization in Western Europe was destroyed. In his paper Desert Storm Professor Weiss says the following:

Only decades after the city’s massive walls were raised, its religious quarter renovated and its grain production reorganized, Tell Leilan was suddenly abandoned. In our excavations the collapsed remains of Akkadian buildings are covered with erosion deposits that show no trace of human activity.

Elsewhere Professor Weiss concludes that it would appear that some building projects were even abandoned before completion. One can only assume that these projects were started in prosperous times but they were never finished. It would appear that in the midst of this prosperity something happened which caused a sudden cessation of construction activities.

In collaboration with soil scientist and archaeologist Marie-Agnés Courty of the National Centre for Scientific research in Paris, it was noted that the remains of the city was covered with a thin layer of volcanic ash followed by some 200mm of fine sand. She found very little evidence of earthworm activity which pointed to a prolonged period of aridity. Prof Weiss continues:

Whether at Tell Leilan or Tell Taya, Chagar Bazar or Tell al-Hawa, the results told the same story: between 2200 and 1900 BC people fled the Habur and Assyrian plains en masse.

He compares his conclusions with other archaeological work:

In Egypt, the Old Kingdom, during which the great pyramids were built, gave way to the turmoil of the First Intermediate Period; in Palestine, Early Bronze Age towns were abandoned; in Mesopotamia Akkad collapsed and nomadic people made strange movements across and down the Euphrates and Tigris valleys.

If we interpret the accounts of a number of ancient scribes literally, we get the picture of an epic disaster or a series of disasters that ravaged earth for years and perhaps even decades. Civilizations were destroyed and arts, science and technologies wiped out. Millions perished in the carnage and many more died in the resultant outbreaks of disease, pestilence, and famine. Governments, social, religious and educational systems and infrastructure that were developed and refined over millennia, collapsed. Production, agriculture, trade and commerce came to an abrupt end. In the aftermath traumatized and starving survivors fled the scenes of destruction and the world experienced the greatest mass migration in the history of man.

Human endeavours were reduced to the most basic needs of survival. In the void left by the collapse of institutionalized security and military structures, anarchy reigned. Looting, pillaging, murder, rape and every conceivable atrocity became a way of life. Strength lay in numbers. Rulers, leaders, the wealthy, the intelligentsia and academics became the targets of anger and hate. It was survival of the strongest. Tens of thousands more died in the violence. Who would survive to record the ghastly events in the midst of such misery, destruction and devastation? Indeed, who would have had the inclination or the means to do so? For all intent and purposes man’s collective memory was wiped out - deleted. It would take another 4000 years before we would be able to pick up the fragments and attempt to understand the extent of this most horrible catastrophe of all times.

Some ancient historians tried to chronicle their intense but localised experiences. So great was their trauma and superstition, though, they dared not, or could not, call the disaster by name. More often than not they described the aftermath but not the actual event. In time their tales became just that – tales, fables, legends, and myth. Only now at the start of the 21st century are we able to verify and understand what these ancient scribes tried to tell us. Through forensics, geology, oceanography, ice and deep-sea core drilling, climatology, astronomy, human genetics, philology, anthropology, archaeology, history and many more fields of study, the door is slowly opening. We understand to an increasing extent what happened but not quite why as yet. By combining and cross-referencing all these diverse fields of study we can finally begin to connect the dots.

In the light of modern day scientific discoveries from all over the world, let us now have a fresh look at how ancient scholars described the events that unfolded 4200 years ago:

The Admonitions of Ipuwer.

Ipuwer is believed to have lived during either the First Intermediate period or during the Middle Kingdom or perhaps even as late as the Second Intermediary Period of Ancient Egypt. In his Admonitions he laments the collapse of his country in, most likely, ca 2200 BC, apparently some centuries earlier. One modern researcher concluded:

The Admonitions of Ipuwer has not only no bearing whatever on the long past First Intermediate Period, it also does not derive from any other historical situation. It is the last, fullest, most exaggerated and hence least successful, composition on the theme ‘order versus chaos’ ( M. Lichtheim: 1973-80, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Vol. I, p. 150, University of California Press).

This sounds surprisingly similar to the judgements passed on the Oera Linda Book.

It would be reasonable to assume that ancient scribes were intelligent and educated people who wrote for a sophisticated audience. Given the time, effort and high profile of their commissions and the social standing of these early scholars, it is unlikely that substandard work or fallacies would have been tolerated. Literacy in ancient Egypt was apparently not for the commoners or the masses and hence the written word was not used for mass communication and sensationalism as we know it today. As we continue in our quest to connect the dots, we shall hopefully find out whether Ipuwer’s writings had any foundation in facts or whether it was indeed exaggerated.

In the light of what we know today of the 4.2ka BP Event , we shall for the time being give Ipuwer the benefit of the doubt. Let us now look at his tale:

Closely examining his Admonitions it would appear that Ipuwer bewails a natural disaster which happened suddenly and killed scores of people. He described the results of a series of events with which his audience seemed to have been familiar with. Although he also referred to a famine, it is evident that, initially at least, this was not because of a drought – the Nile was overflowing!

As time went on foreign refugees from the East overran Egypt in search of food and water. The country which was already reeling from the effects of the disaster now descended into total anarchy and civil disorder. When compared to other authors the most probable causes for his lamentations were the following:

1. Floods

● Behold, Egypt is fallen to pouring of water, and he who poured water on the ground has carried off the strong man in misery. (Note: Swept away by a flood.)

● When men send a servant for humble folk, he goes on the road until he sees the flood; the road is washed out and he stands worried.

● Indeed many dead are buried in the river; the stream is a grave (tomb) and the place of embalmment has become a stream. (Note: People drowned. They would not have buried people intentionally in their only source of drinking water.)

● […] his children who are witnesses of the surging of the flood.

● Indeed, the desert is throughout the land, the nomes (districts) are laid waste. (Note: Submersion and / or denudation from floods?)

●... those who were on their husbands’ beds, let them lie on rafts.

● Behold, noble ladies are now on rafts...

2. Contaminated water

● Indeed the Nile overflows, yet non plough for it. (Note: Not a drought)

● Indeed the river is blood yet men drink of it. (Note: Muddy, salty and decaying bodies of dead people?)

● Men shrink from human beings and thirst after water. (Note: Bodies decaying in water sources)

3.Earthquakes

● Indeed, the land turns around as does a potter’s wheel, towns are destroyed and Upper Egypt has become an empty waste. (Note: could also refer to floods and the resultant denudation of arable lands)

● Indeed, those who were in the place of embalmment are laid out on the high ground, and the secrets of the embalmers are thrown down because of it. (Note: Tombs destroyed by earthquakes. It seems unlikely that tomb robbers, as some would have it, would have removed dead bodies from their graves just to dump them outside.)

● Behold, the secret of the land whose limits were unknown is divulged, and the Residence is thrown down in a moment.

4.Fire

● Indeed, doors, columns and walls are burnt up.

● Behold, the fire has gone up on high, and its burning goes forth against the enemies of the land.

5. Multiple Deaths

● …and there is no man of yesterday.

● Indeed, men are few, and he who places his brother in the ground is everywhere. (Note: Burying people in the ground – not in the river)

6. Disease and Pestilence

● Indeed, hearts are violent, pestilence is throughout the land, blood is everywhere, death is not lacking, and the mummy cloth speaks even before one come near it.

Throughout Ipuwer’s lamentations he recorded how hordes of refugees streamed into Egypt and ravaged and pillaged the country. He described scenes of social disorder and anarchy where the rulers and upper classes were deposed of by the working classes and wandering bandits. Special mention is made of the killing of scribes and the destruction of their work. Some modern researchers estimate that Egypt lost as much as 30% of her population. It is suggested here that the figure was much higher.

The Prophecy of Neferti

The Prophecy of Neferti was written some 200 to 300 years (ca 1992-1786 BC) after the demise of the Old Kingdom and is therefore not a prophecy but rather a description of actual events. Whether this claim of prophecy was only a way of justifying subsequent political developments in Egypt or propaganda would be speculation. The account is one of dejection albeit not as graphic as that of Ipuwer. There are a few facts, however, that stand out:

1. The country was not defeated in war as there was, initially at least, some semblance of a national administration still in place. A military conflict would not have been so curtly described or so readily accepted without tales of battles, heroism, etc:

● See, there are great men in the governance of the land, yet what has been done is as though it had never been done.

2. Descriptions of devastation and lack of manpower and other resources to rebuild the country:

● Re must begin by refounding (rebuilding) the land which is utterly ruined, and nothing remains., and

● This land is destroyed and there are none who care for it; there are none who speak and there are none who act.

3. Neferti describes the lack of sunlight which could have been caused by dust storms as postulated by others. However, he also describes an absence of wind which would rather imply a cloud or smoke cover instead of sand storms as recorded by other authors of the time.

● The sun is veiled, and will not shine when the people would see; none will live when the sun is veiled by a cloud, and everyone is dulled by the lack of it.

● …the south wind will oppose the north wind, and the sky will not be with one single wind.

● Re separates himself from men; he shines, that the hour may be told, but no one knows when noon occurs, for no one can discern his shadow, no one is dazzled when he is seen; there are non whose eyes stream with water, for he is like the moon in the sky, though his accustomed time do not go astray, and his rays are in men’s sight as on former occasions.

4. Neferti described the Nile without water which sounds like a severe drought:

● The river of Egypt is dry and men cross the water on foot;

He continued, however:

● …men will seek water for ships in order to navigate it, for their course has become the riverbank, and the bank serves for water; the place of water has become a riverbank…

This could rather be interpreted as the river having changed its course because of either a flood induced silting up or an earthquake.

The Curse of Akkad

The city of Akkad (Biblical: Accad; Sumerian: Agade) was the capital of the Akkadian Empire which suddenly collapsed in 2193 BC. Some would have it that barbarians from the North, known as Gutians, sacked the empire which was at least as big as the later Sumerian empire. The subsequent Curse of Akkad (ca 2100 BC), however, paints a different picture and seems to be more in line with that described by the aforementioned Egyptians. The curse describes an acute food shortage but apparently no shortage of water. In addition, the skies were overcast but no rain fell:

● For the first time since cities were built and founded, the large fields produced no grain.

● The flooded fields produced no fish.

● The watered gardens produced no honey and wine,

● The heavy clouds did not rain.

Could this point to a massive flood which could have stripped away the fertile topsoil? Professor Harvey Weiss already alluded to the barren ground and absence of earthworm activities. We can take this conjecture one step further. What if this flood was caused by a huge tsunami from the Persian Gulf which left behind large shallow lakes of salt water? Such an inundation of seawater would have contaminated every fresh water source from rivers to wells, causing an immediate lack of drinking water, killed all crops and created an acute famine. This would explain the very sudden mass-exodus of the surviving population as described by archaeologists. The large shallow lakes of stagnant water with decaying bodies and animal carcasses would have been the sources of diseases and pestilence as described by Ipuwer.

Professor Timo Niroma from Helsinki, Finland, gives us the answer on his website The third Millennium BC (3100-2100 BC). He states:

The Third Dynasty of Ur was the last attempt to revive Sumer, after a chaos of 100 years beginning with the destruction of Akkadian Sumer around 2200 BC. During the Akkadian period wheat was the most important cereal and its share of the harvest was about 20%. During the years 2200-2100 BC the saltiness of the soil rose markedly, possibly because of sea floods and, after them, because of the following dryness that evaporated the water leaving the salt behind. In the northern Mesopotamia the wheat share dropped to 2% and in the southern part to zero. This change seems to coincide with the period when there was no central authority.

Again, as in the case of Egypt, we see a collapse of the central government while archaeological findings point to civil disorder and a flood of refugees. The Curse of Akkad mentions one more detail that is worth noting:

He who slept on the roof, died on the roof.

He who slept in the house, had no burial.

Could this be a reference to people who were killed and swept away by the flood? It would further appear as if the disaster struck unexpectedly at night when everyone was asleep. Professor Niroma spreads the disaster much wider than the Middle East:

Mesopotamia and other above-mentioned places were not the only victims of the 2200 BC event. As far away as in China, the Hongsan culture fell in pieces at this same time. This, if not anything else, is an indication of the mighty character of the event, and bolsters us to consider it as global.

The Oera Linda Book

The Oera Linda Book is perhaps the most graphic and accurate record we have today of the catastrophe that hit planet earth and more specifically the North Atlantic coast of Europe and Britain towards the end of the third millennium BC. It is noticeable that the narrative is much more eloquent, developed and modern than that which we find in Egypt and Akkad during the same time. From more than 4000 years ago the pain, anguish and despair of that unknown author lamenting the lot of Frya’s People (the Free People), still touches us. The description is so clear and unassuming that one does not wish to add anything to it. This is possibly as close as we shall ever get to an eyewitness report of this most devastating event of all times to have assailed man:

Chapter XXII: How the bad times came.

1. During the whole summer the sun had been hidden behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men's hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness.

2. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and in other places mountains rose out of the plain. The Old Land (Altland), called Atland by the navigators, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea. Many people were swallowed up by the earth, and others who had escaped the fire perished in the water.

3. It was also in Finda's land (The East) that the earth vomited fire, and in Twiskland (Russia). Whole forests were burned one after the other, and when the wind blew from that quarter our land was covered with ashes. Rivers changed their course, and at their mouths new islands were formed of sand and drift.

4. During three years this continued, but at length it ceased, and forests became visible. Many countries were submerged, and in other places land rose above the sea, and the wood was destroyed through the half of Twiskland. Troops of Finda's people came and settled in the empty places. Our dispersed people were exterminated or made slaves. Then watchfulness was doubly impressed upon us, and time taught us that unity is strength.

3. Hills, bow your heads; weep, ye streams and clouds. Yes. Skenland blushes, an enslaved people tramples on your short kilt, O Frya!

Here we have all the elements of the Egyptian and Akkadian disasters as described before in one picture – the cloud cover, the lack of wind to the volcanoes, fire, earthquakes, floods and death which lasted for three years, followed by refugees and anarchy. On his website Professor Niroma alludes to the fact that the population of nearby Finland dropped to about 33% between 2400 and 2000 BC.

Whereas numerous remains of ancient civilisations are found in the Middle East, no such traces have apparently been identified in Europe. The best, but assuredly not the only indication of the existence of such an advanced civilisation and their level of development before 800 BC, is contained in the Oera Linda Book. The reasons assumed for this are fivefold:

1. The Eastern shores of the North Sea and the surrounding areas are very low lying, and would have been particularly hard hit by giant tsunamis,

2. The authors of the Oera Linda Book were part of a maritime civilisation which would have been concentrated around the Mediterranean, Atlantic and North Sea coasts and therefore more vulnerable to these catastrophes. In fact, even in the Eastern Mediterranean much less evidence of advanced civilisations is found around the more temperate coastal regions than inland towards Mesopotamia and Egypt.

3. Western Europe is relatively close to the tectonic active Mid-Atlantic Ridge.

4. The thick forest and vegetation cover coupled with dense populations and concentrated cultivation make the identification of prehistoric remains more difficult and expensive than the open deserts of the East, and

5. Surviving stone and brickwork from damaged structures would have been used in subsequent constructions.

While the above refer to brick or stone structures, there are abundant other physical structures all over Europe that attest to this ancient civilization as will be proven later in this book. Strangely, the biggest single reason for not having been able to identify previous civilizations in Europe is that they never ceased to exist. Modern day Europeans have resided in Europe uninterrupted for thousands of years in predominantly the same cities they still occupy today and their towns have merely evolved with subsequent generations.

The Bible

Some ancient Jewish scriptures give the date of the Deluge, or Noah’s Flood, as 2105 BC. This is some 88 years later than 2193 BC mentioned before but is still within an acceptable margin of error over a period of 4200 years, especially given the extent of the damage, death and trauma described earlier.

The Bible does not give us a lot of detail except to say that the water came from both the sky and the ground. Again, we get the hint of a possible tsunami.

Genesis 7: 11,12

(11) In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep were broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. (12) And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights.

In the Hebrew calendar, the 17th day of the 2nd month would be 17 Cheshvan. If we now apply the year 2193 BC on the Gregorian calendar, or 1568 on the Hebrew calendar, the flood or the destruction of the Frisian Altland and the world at large would have taken place on Wednesday, 21 October 2193 BC . If ever the world looked for an international day of commemoration, this would be it.

All over the world we find legends of floods and other disasters that have elements of the event described above, such as the Epics of Gilgamesh and folklore from South America. It is quite likely that they all refer to the same event.

At a first glance it would appear that the mentioning of all these survivors contradict the Bible. In the book of Genesis it seems to state categorically that all life apart from the eight persons and the animals on Noah’s ark were wiped off the face of the earth. This, however, is not the case. The problem does not lie with the Bible nor with these ancient scribes but rather with the interpreters and translators of the Bible. The hereto accepted translation of Genesis 7:23 reads:

(23) So He (God) destroyed all living things which were on the face of the ground: both man and cattle, creeping thing and bird of the air. They were destroyed from the earth. Only Noah and those who were with him in the ark remained alive.

The words the earth, which signifies the whole planet, was translated from the Hebrew word erets (eh•rets). The word erets appears 2504 times in the Bible. In 1543 cases the word was translated to signify land, 712 times as earth, 140 times as country and 98 times as ground. Other lesser meanings included world, way, common, field, nations and wilderness. One example of many was when God called Abraham in Genesis 12:1:

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

‘Get out of your country (erets) , from your family and from your father’s house, to a land (erets) that I will show you.’

In light of the overwhelming evidence of numerous survivors from sources outside the Bible it is thus reasonable to assume that the Bible does not say that all life was wiped out on planet earth (erets) but rather all those living creatures in a specific land (erets), country (erets) or perhaps even the known world (erets) of the author of Genesis. Although the disaster was world-wide, not everybody and everything were destroyed. The Bible is right but not our interpretation.