The...almost discovery of steam power

[Asterix]

A story that probably most of you have heard or read about already, but I make a quick reference to those of you who haven't.

(From http://www.smith.edu/hsc/museum/ancient_in...amengine2.html)

"Heron, the great inventor of Alexandria, described in detail what is thought to be the first working steam engine. He called it an aeolipile, or "wind ball". His design was a sealed caldron of water was placed over a heat source. As the water boiled, steam rose into the pipes and into the hollow sphere. The steam escaped from two bent outlet tubes on the ball, resulting in rotation of the ball. The principle he used in his design is similar to that of today's jet propulsion. Heron did not consider this invention being useful for everyday applications: he considered his aeolipile invention as a novelty, a remarkable toy"

1) Do you think that if this invention had not been seen as a remarkable toy but as a serious tool, would the history of the world be different? Would the discovery of steam power lead to a industrial revolution 2000 yrs before the actual one (skipping the dreadful middle ages perhaps)?

2) Can it be so that indeed, something important enough to alter the course of the entire human race be depending on just one person (or small group of persons) so that their wishes/desires/insights influence the entire globe?

3) How many more discoveries are burried in History, utterly unknown to us, who "re-discovered" them recently?

More of Heron's inventions:

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/HeronAlexandria.htm

[hunterkiller2001]

Just like the battery they found..

Based on our own history, if these items had been used to thier fullest, and they continued to develop new technology.. we could have colonized the moon 1500 years ago..

[The Nameless One]

Cool thanks for the link Asterix.

Thats good stuff.

[Asterix]

You're welcome

Another interesting site I found was this:

http://www.ancientgr.com/Unknown_Hellenic_...ng/Contents.htm

The author of this site seems to be just a bit biased, but it's an interesting site nevertheless

[JTBob]

I've always felt that it's a bit sad when there are inventors before their time. Imagine how things would have been different if steam power had been utilized thousands of years before the industrial revolution or if if Da Vinci's work had been shared. It's always a bit upsetting that technological advance has a lot of luck to it. I've always been fascinated with the idea of ancient civilizations having more technology than we give them credit though I am bit skeptical of death rays or anything of the sort. Thanks for posting the links very interesting material.

[Asterix]

There's a positive side in this. It seems, that forgetting the great inventions doesn't mean they'll never come true. We have the joy of reinventing them, and we do end up where we're supposed to, thou some thousand years behind schedule Maybe the delay of technology has worked for our advance. The scenarios are endless.

Mrs Asterix

[Rakshasas]

Maybe the reason technology is lost is we`re not ready for it?? Think about if we had the Atomic bomb hundreds of years ago..It would have made religous wars far more bloody.

[PsychicPenguin]

exactly what i'm thinking... with the steam engine 2000 years ago, the Romans are going to have tanks, and they would be conquered by the jet planes and missiles. Then Muhammad would not survive because Madinnah was attacked by a nuke ... and Genghis Khan... the crussade.. oh.. i really cannot imagine what Hitler would use

[CatAstrofix]

It's funny to assume that history wouldn't have changed more than just mad men having bigger guns. lol I suppose that developement of the technology might have altered the past way more than that.

[Erikl]

Although one can only wonder where we will be now if those technologies (gears, steam engines, batteris) haven't been lost, I think this for the best.

We were not ready socially for this technology back then.

Heck - we are not ready for nukes today!

[Cobalt Demon]

1. It would have BIG impact on world, especially in siege and naval warfare. More civilization would has disappear (especially native american). But on other side there probably would be alot good invention such as car that dont use gas. But middle age will still happen and it could be even worse and if it does then many people in euro will still be living in poverty. It will be interesting to see someone do a research on this subjetc.

2. Similar to above.

3. I have heard that anicent Greece or Rome discover aluminum long before anyone else but it was consider useless or something and discarded. So there could be many more things waiting to be discover.

Sorry if answer is kinda confusing but I am just in a rush to get to work adn want to add a post so I can come back to this site later instead of losing it forever.

[aquatus1]

I do not believe that nuclear weapons in the old days would have been the end all of humanity. Don't forget, these people, for all their lack of technology, were every bit as sensible as we are, and none had any greater death wish than we do.

Back in the middle ages, a weapon emerged that was so powerful that even the most inexperienced peasant could use it to kill a knight in full armor. An entire wall full of these would be impenetrable, and untiring in their force. This weapon was deemed so dangerous than it was banned in Europe for over fifty years.

This weapon was the crossbow.

[Cagliostro37]

No I do not think the industrial revolution would have started any earlier. The industrial revolution was not the singular creation of technology, rather various social institutions changed and either created technology to solve a specific problem or used already exsisting technology. As it stood that era was not ready for an industrial revolution. Unskilled labor was tied up in food production, while skilled artisans either belonged to guilds or were slaves to wealthy land owners. The industrial revolution was successful becuase there was a larger body of mobile labor who were no longer nessesary for food production.

[Asterix]

I think, generally speaking, it is safe to assume that technological development and maturity of mind/social advance do come together. When we think of "steam power in 50BC) we have a picture similar to that of handing over a machine gun to an ancient greek infantryman. But let's keep in mind that it would take many, many years from BC and on to go from a steam-powered revolving ball to factory site producing steel or trains moving on rails with 100 m/h. In that time period, the civilization would have time to absorb the cultural shocks and I think it would have ample chances to reform itself as to balance into something similar with the social structures of the actual industrial revolution.

The only thing that perhaps would be different would be which nation would be more or less dominant on the world. Perhaps instead of English/French/Americans etc, as it was in the actual industrial revolution, we would have Greeks/Arabs/Romans...

You never know

[thebarman]

No I do not think the industrial revolution would have started any earlier.

I've got to disagree with that, I understand where you're coming from but if the potential of steam power had been realised 2000 years earlier it would have made a tremendous impact.

Personally, I think there just wouldn't have been an industrial revolution, we'd eventually have all the same inventions we do now, maybe more, and maybe a lot sooner but the reason it's called a 'revolution' is because it all happend so fast.

Introducing steam power 2000 years earlier (not to mention in an entirely different culture) is only taking a part of the industrial revolution backwards in time, the rest would follow later, probably much later.

I believe the effect would be the 'dilution' of the industrial revolution across perhaps several centuries, making it not really a revolution at all

[Asterix]

Another interesting factor in this debate, and in the comparison between the now and then, is that in our times the countries that have the technological development materialization and research capabilities, are also the ones that have the military/economical/political power.

In 50BC, Rome was the leading ruling power. But a close look will allow us to realize that even if they had the military/political strength, many of the cultural/technological developments were being discovered/becoming true elsewhere. Of course the Romans did contribute to many technological advances (esp. in architecture and mechanics) but many of the contemporary inventions or discoveries were also made by Greeks (and later by Arabs).

If Rome, instead of relying solely on military might, had realized to the fullest the potential of research and development in the areas of technology and education, along with the importance of cultural evolution, perhaps the Roman Empire would not have fallen so easily.

[Chauncy]

I think that the fact that Heron's aeolipile was not utilized to its potential says a lot.

Where as the idea that steam produces pressure must have been well known but not fully appreciated. Maybe its the fact that there was no need for this steam power then, there might have been a more powerful and more understood means of 'force' that made the aeolipile seem archaic and thus not worthy of developement.

I agree that with technological advancements a military or economical increase happens as well. I think this is because new discoveries and the application of such, for some reason inspires a need for secrecy. It also increases the ego of a society. Where a new discovery puts a group at the fore front of advancement and may inspire a mindset that now "We are able to conquer all......with our new discovery"

I'm a firm believer in a great forgetting amongst the human race. The industrial revolution is an example of re-discoveries, allthough the technology may be very different from that of our pre-history, the re-discovery lies in the recognition of our capacity to discover, learn, apply, and then utilize......I think we forgot this for a long time.

[FreyKade]

yeh, i think that there was no use for inventions like the aeolipile. although they had the technology, they wrobably didnt know how to makeuse of it.

[Asterix]

And the sad truth is, that technology is something that advances as a total of many different inventions and explorations. Things like the aeolipile was more of a fluke thing (Heron considered it to be a toy). It's like you would give to a person living in 50BC a flash light. He would say "Cool. But I have my torch and my oil lamp, why would I use that?"