Ground Zero Mosque

[Michelle]

Would it be acceptable to put a Confederate Memorial right next to an African American church or cemetery? Even though there was a Confederacy there at one time, does that make it alright to put one there now?

Legally, there's no way that I know of to deny them the right to build there but, the truth is that a lot of Americans feel the same way towards a mosque at the WTC site as many Blacks would feel about a CSA Memorial on a traditional lynching site. Would we feel aright about building a Catholic Church on the grounds where witches were burned by Catholics? What about a museum to the greatness of Gen Custer on a Sioux Indian Reservation?

Is it legal? Probably. Is it moral? Nah, I kind of don't think so.

Excellent point...

[Torgo]

What do the people building this mosque have to do with the whackaloons who flew the planes so many years ago?

I may think that religion in general is an example of the triumph cognitive dissonance, ingroup/outgroup dynamics and surrender of thought to authority, but people have a right to think what they want and I fail to see how an American mosque in New York City has more to do with Islamist terrorists than an American Catholic church has to do with the IRA or the crusades.

[aquatus1]

What do the people building this mosque have to do with the whackaloons who flew the planes so many years ago?

They share the same religion and ideology.

I may think that religion in general is an example of the triumph cognitive dissonance, ingroup/outgroup dynamics and surrender of thought to authority, but people have a right to think what they want and I fail to see how an American mosque in New York City has more to do with Islamist terrorists than an American Catholic church has to do with the IRA or the crusades.

I don't know about the IRA, but it is pretty much the same as the crusades. After the crusaders went through and razed the country, they would then build a church. I would imagine it made the locals feel pretty much the same as New Yorkers are feeling.

[Brand X]

Either any religious building should be allowed to be built in the area (best would be a single centre for all religions (and also non-believers)), or none should be built there. It would be ridiculous and racist to forbid it just because the attackers happened to be islamic.

one billion muslims think this is a holy war? when did you ask them?

sorry, but that's quite a ludicrous thing to claim. i actually laughed.

He's probably just trolling. At least I hope so for his sake.

[Torgo]

I don't know about the IRA, but it is pretty much the same as the crusades. After the crusaders went through and razed the country, they would then build a church. I would imagine it made the locals feel pretty much the same as New Yorkers are feeling.

Who has 'razed' the city? AMERICANS would be using this mosque. Many of them having lived here for decades, or their entire lives. Those building it have no connection to those that blew up the buildings. No foreign power is forcing this down anyone's throat. Why does Islam get special treatment as being known as an invading force, and not Hinduism or Buddhism or Ba'hai or Evangelical Christianity (arguably a far more dangerous force, due to the power it wields in American politics and the hate it so often engenders)?

Our country is founded upon, among many other things, freedom of religion. You cannot give preference to one as long as those practicing it are not harming others. What have Muslim New Yorkers done to warrant exclusion from an activity that any other of the many American religious communities do all the time, building places of worship?

Edited July 30, 2010 by Torgo

[aquatus1]

Who has 'razed' the city?

Crusaders.

AMERICANS would be using this mosque.

So?

Many of them having lived here for decades, or their entire lives.

So?

Those building it have no connection to those that blew up the buildings.

Sure they do. They follow the same religion. I just pointed that out above.

No foreign power is forcing this down anyone's throat.

No one said it was.

Why does Islam get special treatment as being known as an invading force, and not Hinduism or Buddhism or Ba'hai or Evangelical Christianity (arguably a far more dangerous force, due to the power it wields in American politics and the hate it so often engenders)?

Because none of those are tied to the largest terrorist action in our country generally, and this city specifically.

Our country is founded upon, among many other things, freedom of religion. You cannot give preference to one as long as those practicing it are not harming others.

Yes. No one has said otherwise.

What have Muslim New Yorkers done to warrant exclusion from an activity that any other of the many American religious communities do all the time, building places of worship?

No one is objecting to them building a place of worship. They are objecting to them building a place of worship a stone's throw away from the place members of the same religion killed a lot of people.

[danielost]

muslims build mosques on conquered land or where they have won a battle.

if this was just a community center why is it being billed as a mosque.

perhaps a community center should be built as this one is being proposed but not by this group. whom it seems wants to over throw any government that would stop this mosque from being built. words out of the backers mouth, it is in the other thread.

different buildings have been stopped from being built around the country for different reasons.

no one is saying they cant practice their religion we just dont want the building in that spot.

[+HerNibs]

muslims build mosques on conquered land or where they have won a battle.

if this was just a community center why is it being billed as a mosque.

perhaps a community center should be built as this one is being proposed but not by this group. whom it seems wants to over throw any government that would stop this mosque from being built. words out of the backers mouth, it is in the other thread.

different buildings have been stopped from being built around the country for different reasons.

no one is saying they cant practice their religion we just dont want the building in that spot.

Daniel, I found a great deal of information about the proposed mosque/community center. I posted a ton of it here

It seems that much of what you posted isn't quite accurate but it does reflect the rumors.

Nibs

[danielost]

Daniel, I found a great deal of information about the proposed mosque/community center. I posted a ton of it here

It seems that much of what you posted isn't quite accurate but it does reflect the rumors.

Nibs

Muslims are right. Non of the existing Islamic countries are truly Islamic, that is why they don't progress and most of them are poor, corrupt and miserable. We must implement 100% sharia and sunna to get full benefits of Islam. Inshallah we will try to do it in USA to make it the first real Muslim country after the days of rightly guided khalifas Consider the following advantages:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AyeshaAhmed41220.htm

then i guess you missed that part.

sharia law is unconstitutional in the usa. but then again i guess there are some who would say the constitution is unconstitutional since it was written by christians.

Edited July 30, 2010 by danielost

[+HerNibs]

Muslims are right. Non of the existing Islamic countries are truly Islamic, that is why they don't progress and most of them are poor, corrupt and miserable. We must implement 100% sharia and sunna to get full benefits of Islam. Inshallah we will try to do it in USA to make it the first real Muslim country after the days of rightly guided khalifas Consider the following advantages:

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/AyeshaAhmed41220.htm

then i guess you missed that part.

sharia law is unconstitutional in the usa.

No, I didn't miss that part at all. I addressed it in the other thread. Have you read it?

*really doesn't want to repost everything*

*needs magic merge wand*

Nibs

[Leah G.]

Oh Nibs! Magic merge wand! HAHAHAHA Funny! Yea, we could use one of those.

I found several sites including the original article that say one of the founders said he wanted to take over the US from the inside out and another site that has a whole sloo of charges against CAIR it's self.

http://www.discovert....asp?grpid=6176 CAIR charges

http://www.anti-cair...tateScanned.pdf Original article.

There are other sites I found but I left them in the other thread. It's enough for me to think there is something to it and be against CAIR building anything anywhere, ever. If there is enough smoke there has to be a fire somewhere.

H.

[+HerNibs]

Oh Nibs! Magic merge wand! HAHAHAHA Funny! Yea, we could use one of those.

I found several sites including the original article that say one of the founders said he wanted to take over the US from the inside out and another site that has a whole sloo of charges against CAIR it's self.

http://www.discovert....asp?grpid=6176 CAIR charges

http://www.anti-cair...tateScanned.pdf Original article.

There are other sites I found but I left them in the other thread. It's enough for me to think there is something to it and be against CAIR building anything anywhere, ever. If there is enough smoke there has to be a fire somewhere.

H.

Yup! I saw those but we also learned that Omar M. Ahmad is not in charge of the project. That he is working on the mosque that will be IN the center which is going to be near two other mosques that are closer to the WTC than this one will be.

I don't know any religion that doesn't think it's the ONLY correct one and that it is their duty to convert every one else. Evangelists, Scientology come to mind.

Nibs

[Leah G.]

Yup! I saw those but we also learned that Omar M. Ahmad is not in charge of the project. That he is working on the mosque that will be IN the center which is going to be near two other mosques that are closer to the WTC than this one will be.

I don't know any religion that doesn't think it's the ONLY correct one and that it is their duty to convert every one else. Evangelists, Scientology come to mind.

Nibs

Don't forget those nasty Catholics now. Every religion has there turn it seems but none of them are trying to bomb the US out of exisitance except for the extremist... (D0 I DARE say it?) yes, I do... extremist Musliums! Why are we giving them a break because they are a religion? They're just a bunch of kooks using their religion to rally people to their cause of pretty much the total enslavement of women and non conforming men. They want the world to go back to when there were public beheadings for entertainment. Their kooks! They just happen to be dangerous kooks. And I still say if there is the slightest chance that SAIR is connected to them they should be disbanded in th US.

[+HerNibs]

Don't forget those nasty Catholics now. Every religion has there turn it seems but none of them are trying to bomb the US out of exisitance except for the extremist... (D0 I DARE say it?) yes, I do... extremist Musliums! Why are we giving them a break because they are a religion? They're just a bunch of kooks using their religion to rally people to their cause of pretty much the total enslavement of women and non conforming men. They want the world to go back to when there were public beheadings for entertainment. Their kooks! They just happen to be dangerous kooks. And I still say if there is the slightest chance that SAIR is connected to them they should be disbanded in th US.

Well, fundamentalist anything is dangerous.

Operation Rescue -

Christian terrorism

Jewish terrorism

Buddhist terrorism

Cult terrorism

I can give you a list of main stream US religious groups with fishy dealings.

Extremism and fanatics are what are dangerous.

The extremists of any group give a bad name to any groups that share a common name but not the same philosophy.

Many of the individuals who are working on the community center/mosque are members of the mosques that are already right near the WTC. With the number of muslims in NY they need more room.

I do understand the feelings behind not wanting a mosque near the WTC but should we base what is right and wrong or fair on these emotions?

Nibs

[Leah G.]

Well, fundamentalist anything is dangerous.

Operation Rescue -

Christian terrorism

Jewish terrorism

Buddhist terrorism

Cult terrorism

I can give you a list of main stream US religious groups with fishy dealings.

Extremism and fanatics are what are dangerous.

The extremists of any group give a bad name to any groups that share a common name but not the same philosophy.

Many of the individuals who are working on the community center/mosque are members of the mosques that are already right near the WTC. With the number of muslims in NY they need more room.

I do understand the feelings behind not wanting a mosque near the WTC but should we base what is right and wrong or fair on these emotions?

Nibs

After 911 Yep. but I'm not saying all organizations just CAIR. Any organization connected to the terrorists or extremists that are trying to destroy the US. I don't care how a person worships as long as their goal isn't to over throw our government. From what I see we do enough damage to ourselves with out help. If we can't save our own country we will never be able to help another country in need again. Our country has done some truely wonderful things for other countries that were in need and IMO is the best and needs to be protected from those that want to destroy it. You do what you have to do. If you had an employee that was costing you money but was the nicest person what would you do? You'd have to do the hard thing and either fire them or put them in a position that they couldn't hurt the company. It's the same principle.

H.

[+HerNibs]

After 911 Yep. but I'm not saying all organizations just CAIR. Any organization connected to the terrorists or extremists that are trying to destroy the US. I don't care how a person worships as long as their goal isn't to over throw our government. From what I see we do enough damage to ourselves with out help. If we can't save our own country we will never be able to help another country in need again. Our country has done some truely wonderful things for other countries that were in need and IMO is the best and needs to be protected from those that want to destroy it. You do what you have to do. If you had an employee that was costing you money but was the nicest person what would you do? You'd have to do the hard thing and either fire them or put them in a position that they couldn't hurt the company. It's the same principle.

H.

I can agree on an emotional level. I really can.

Here is where, once I think about it, I hit the wall...

I agree, CAIR has had some shady dealings and should probably be watched. The day to day people who will be attending this community center/mosque are probably no different than any other religious New Yorker.

Again, this is how I think of it...

The Catholic church has known about/ignored/hidden thousands upon thousands of cases of sexual abuse of children.

The Catholic church runs hundreds of boys schools. Look.

The Catholic church has been charged with supporting and funding terrorism.

Should we stop all Catholic churches and members from being near children? No, because we (reasonably) try not to blame the entire group because of some evil leaders and members.

I found this article from a Catholic publication that made me shake my head...

Saudi Arabia Says No to Catholic Church

March 26, 208 - There was news last week about Vatican discussions with Saudi Arabia for the building of a Catholic Church in that country. Within the last twenty-four hours there are several news stories stating the Saudi Arabia will not agree to this until the Catholic Church acknowledges the Prophet Mohammed.

The Saudi government needs to acknowledge and affirm the essential human right to worship freely throughout the world regardless of religious affiliation. The real issue that needs to be considered is the freedom of all people to publicly practice their faiths, regardless of what religion dominates the political landscape.

The Islamic community in the Middle East should not require the Catholic Church’s public acceptance of the Prophet Mohammed as part of its negotiations towards establishing a Catholic presence in Saudi Arabia. In the same manner, Catholics should not require any Saudi proclamation that favors Christianity either.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no country that requires a public proclamation of any specific religion before the right to assemble and worship is permitted. There are, of course, areas that have religious persecution in the world; Islamic countries often prohibit public displays of Christianity. However, a public proclamation regarding the superiority of Islam over Christianity is something that undermines the entire concept of religious freedom and tolerance.

Then I read this...head shaking began...

It's up to the moderates of all the religions to take back the names of their religions. The mosque is a step towards doing this.

I think this is a wonderful example - Welcome a mosque near sacred gound

We are three New Yorkers who hail from three different faiths but cherish the religious and cultural pluralism of New York City. We would like to inform Mark Williams of the national Tea Party and all those who strongly object to the proposed Muslim cultural center near the World Trade Center that Islam is a wonderful, faith-filled religion just like Judaism and Christianity.

Islam did not bring down the Twin Towers on Sept. 11, 2001. What brought the towers down were 19 men who were deeply misguided and brainwashed by an ideology that is not blessed in the teachings of the prophet Mohammed in the sacred Koran. To believe otherwise is to equate Catholicism with the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 by Irish American Catholic, Timothy McVeigh, or to connect Judaism with the 1977 Son of Sam murders with a Jewish American, David Berkowitz.

Therefore, please do not condemn Islam due to the crazed, morbid actions of zealots who abused the Koran and the free will given to them by God.

After a careful period of inquiry, we have discovered that the particular proposed development in question is based on the spirit of peaceful co-existence with other faith traditions. (And: It happens not to be a "mosque," as many are calling it, but a multi-purpose cultural center; even if it were a mosque, however, it would be an institution to welcome, not fear.)

We know for a fact that it will not advocate nor will tolerate any hate-filled language against the United States nor any particular religion such as Judaism or Christianity.

We are deeply aware that some radical mosques exist - but this proposed center to be built on the corner of Park Place and Broadway is not one of them. By the way, this location is two long blocks from the World Trade Center, not at Ground Zero, as some have said.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/05/23/2010-05-23_welcome_a_mosque_near_sacred_ground_a_jew_catholic_and_muslim_say_we_must_suppor.html#ixzz0vBOfio5R

Nibs

Edited July 30, 2010 by HerNibs

[Karlis]

I can agree on an emotional level. I really can.

Here is where, once I think about it, I hit the wall...

I agree, CAIR has had some shady dealings and should probably be watched. The day to day people who will be attending this community center/mosque are probably no different than any other religious New Yorker.

Again, this is how I think of it...

The Catholic church has known about/ignored/hidden thousands upon thousands of cases of sexual abuse of children.

The Catholic church runs hundreds of boys schools. Look.

The Catholic church has been charged with supporting and funding terrorism.

Should we stop all Catholic churches and members from being near children? No, because we (reasonably) try not to blame the entire group because of some evil leaders and members.

I found this article from a Catholic publication that made me shake my head...

Saudi Arabia Says No to Catholic Church

Then I read this...head shaking began...

It's up to the moderates of all the religions to take back the names of their religions. The mosque is a step towards doing this.

I think this is a wonderful example - Welcome a mosque near sacred gound

Nibs

Hi HerNibs -- your post imo is going off-topic somewhat; especially when you bring in the following:

The Catholic church has known about/ignored/hidden thousands upon thousands of cases of sexual abuse of children.

I suggest that the RC be not brought into this thread, please.

Thanks,

Karlis

[+HerNibs]

Hi HerNibs -- your post imo is going off-topic somewhat; especially when you bring in the following:

The Catholic church has known about/ignored/hidden thousands upon thousands of cases of sexual abuse of children.

I suggest that the RC be not brought into this thread, please.

Thanks,

Karlis

Sorry, I was using it as an example of my thought process not as a diversion or anything.

Nibs

[Karlis]

Sorry, I was using it as an example of my thought process not as a diversion or anything.

Nibs

[ExpandMyMind]

Who has 'razed' the city? AMERICANS would be using this mosque. Many of them having lived here for decades, or their entire lives. Those building it have no connection to those that blew up the buildings. No foreign power is forcing this down anyone's throat. Why does Islam get special treatment as being known as an invading force, and not Hinduism or Buddhism or Ba'hai or Evangelical Christianity (arguably a far more dangerous force, due to the power it wields in American politics and the hate it so often engenders)?

Our country is founded upon, among many other things, freedom of religion. You cannot give preference to one as long as those practicing it are not harming others. What have Muslim New Yorkers done to warrant exclusion from an activity that any other of the many American religious communities do all the time, building places of worship?

aquatus has already made his mind up that the attacks of 9/11 happened because of islam (failing to acknowledge that the attacks were about politics, US policy in the ME), and that all (or at least nearly all) muslims share the same ideology as those responsible. i mean for goodness sake, he just attempted to compare the attacks to the crusades!

quite a warped opinion when you consider the evidence... or in his case, lack of it.

Edited July 30, 2010 by expandmymind

[danielost]

Daniel, I found a great deal of information about the proposed mosque/community center. I posted a ton of it here

It seems that much of what you posted isn't quite accurate but it does reflect the rumors.

Nibs

i based my first post on this quote.

Why is all this bigotry and hatred being employed to stop the construction of a community center that will house recreational and banquet facilities, meeting rooms, an auditorium — and yes, a prayer space for Muslims and people of other faiths? … The constitutional rights of American Muslims must not be left in the hands of those who exploit and promote fear of the “other” and use the same divisive tactics that have harmed so many other societies throughout history. — Ibrahim Hooper, national communications director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, July 22, 2010

http://www.911familiesforamerica.org/

[+HerNibs]

i based my first post on this quote.

Why is all this bigotry and hatred being employed to stop the construction of a community center that will house recreational and banquet facilities, meeting rooms, an auditorium — and yes, a prayer space for Muslims and people of other faiths? … The constitutional rights of American Muslims must not be left in the hands of those who exploit and promote fear of the “other” and use the same divisive tactics that have harmed so many other societies throughout history. — Ibrahim Hooper, national communications director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, July 22, 2010

http://www.911familiesforamerica.org/

Um...ok.

I don't understand your stance daniel. Why are YOU against the mosque?

Nibs

Edited July 30, 2010 by HerNibs

[Leah G.]

Hi Nibs,

We go round and round about this don't we? I agree, any religious organization guilty of such horrible crimes should be disbanned but not as a whole but as a part. Like cutting off a gangonous finger to save the hand. Muslium, Catholic, don't care. If they can't police themselves then it is up to our government to protect us. With exception most do a fair job and when they don't, they get unwanted attention and then the government should step in. At the very least they should be thoroughly investaged, immediately. All building should be postponed until an investagation is over and they are cleared.

H.

[+HerNibs]

Hi Nibs,

We go round and round about this don't we? I agree, any religious organization guilty of such horrible crimes should be disbanned but not as a whole but as a part. Like cutting off a gangonous finger to save the hand. Muslium, Catholic, don't care. If they can't police themselves then it is up to our government to protect us. With exception most do a fair job and when they don't, they get unwanted attention and then the government should step in. At the very least they should be thoroughly investaged, immediately. All building should be postponed until an investagation is over and they are cleared.

H.

Yup! I think we agreed to amicably disagree in the other thread.

I agree that it should be investigated as any religious group with any serious allegations against them but I don't think the community should suffer by waiting for the building to begin.

Is CAIR the ONLY source of income building this place?

Nibs

[danielost]

Um...ok.

I don't understand your stance daniel. Why are YOU against the mosque?

Nibs

because this man stands for those who did this to us. not the whole religion just those who did the actual act.