Ground Zero Mosque

[Leah G.]

Yup! I think we agreed to amicably disagree in the other thread.

I agree that it should be investigated as any religious group with any serious allegations against them but I don't think the community should suffer by waiting for the building to begin.

Is CAIR the ONLY source of income building this place?

Nibs

Good question, I don't know. BRB

It's still a good question, they're not saying.... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/13/funding-for-ground-zero-m_n_645305.html

Edited July 30, 2010 by Hatch

[+HerNibs]

because this man stands for those who did this to us. not the whole religion just those who did the actual act.

Here, this is good information - Q&A with Sharif el-Gamal

3. Some of Imam Feisal's past statements [1,2] have been used by critics to undermine the project's credibility. Can Imam Feisal clarify his views on terrorism to reassure New Yorkers he understands the moral weight of the tragedy of 9-11?

Imam Feisal has been a champion of pluralism and tolerance. He fully understands the enormity of 9-11. In fact his own congregation was only blocks away from Ground Zero. He works very hard, day in and day out, to fight extremism and radicalism.

More to the point, this is going to be a community center. Park51 is not a political organization. We do not have a political agenda, and we will be open to all New Yorkers. What we do not have room for are extremist views and opinions. Radical and hateful agendas will have no place in our community center or in the mosque. We are building this center for New York City, because we're New Yorkers. We're Americans. We have families here and futures here.

On September 11, 2001, I went down to the site of the attacks and spent two days handing out water to first responders and other victims. Hundreds of Muslims died on that day. New Yorkers of all faiths and no faiths died together. There are also hundreds of Muslims in our police force and fire department and many Muslims who volunteered to help the injured and the hurt. One of my close friends, a Muslim and a New Yorker, headed down to Ground Zero after the attacks, and helped set up a triage.

She was buried in the rubble when the towers collapsed, but she was dug out, thank God, and went right back to work. We understand the horror of that day because we lived it. Terrorists attacked our city and our country, and terrorists have continued to threaten our city and our country. We're proud of the many Muslims who have worked with our fellow Americans to keep our city and country safe.

4. What are Imam Feisal's specific roles and responsibilities in the project? If he is not in a leadership/executive position, then who is really "in charge" and making the decisions?

Imam Feisal Abdul-Rauf is as an interfaith leader and a visionary in this project. He has served the lower Manhattan community faithfully for over 27 years. He is supported by political and religious leaders across New York City for his commitment to moderation and tolerance and his years of work in bringing people together.

Park51 is an independent project led by Muslim Americans. This project will be separate from The Cordoba Initiative and ASMA. The next step is forming a non-profit and applying for tax-exempt status. Imam Feisal and I are serving as the project managers until then. This non-profit will be run by an Executive Director, yet to be selected, support staff, and a 23-member Board of Directors.

Imam Feisal will be one of the Directors, and will oversee the Cordoba House, which will direct the interfaith programming within Park51.. We have not yet selected the other members of the Board of Directors, but we will be picking people very carefully, based on their record of leadership, relevant experience and positive contribution to New York City and the country. The board will not be limited by religion.

The mosque will be run by a separate non-profit whose Board of Directors will reflect a broad range of experience. While the mosque will be located in the planned final structure of Park51, it will be a distinct non-profit. Neither Park51 nor the mosque, which hasn't been named yet, will tolerate any kind of illegal or un-American activity and rhetoric.

Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/cityofbrass/2010/07/qa-with-sharif-el-gamal-about.html#ixzz0vBdG89F5

I don't want to assume anything but who is "that man" that you are talking about?

Nibs

[+HerNibs]

Good question, I don't know. BRB

Well, this is from the article I linked to in my last post -

5. Will you pledge make all funding sources fully transparent? What are your criteria for accepting funding from a foreign source, to assuage concerns about extremist influences?

We have not yet launched our fundraising campaign. Park51 will incorporate as a non-profit and seek federal tax-exempt status. We are pledging to pursue this fundraising campaign in accordance with all applicable laws and regulations. We have hired legal counsel and top-notch auditors to oversee this process from start to finish.

We will hire security consultants to assist us in the process of reviewing potential financiers and philanthropists as we begin to establish our fundraising strategy. We will refuse assistance, financial or otherwise, from any persons or institutions who are flagged by our security consultants or any government agencies.

Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/cityofbrass/2010/07/qa-with-sharif-el-gamal-about.html#ixzz0vBdYsW00

But I too shall BRB.

Nibs

[danielost]

Here, this is good information - Q&A with Sharif el-Gamal

I don't want to assume anything but who is "that man" that you are talking about?

Nibs

as i asked if this is a multi purpose, multi religion community center then why is it being billed as a mosque.

if you go to the ymca/ywca they down play the part where they are sponsered by the catholics.

Edited July 30, 2010 by danielost

[+HerNibs]

NY Post Article

Huffington Post

Is any religious group in the US allowed to take money from anyone with suspected ties to terrorism?

Nibs

[+HerNibs]

as i asked if this is a multi purpose, multi religion community center then why is it being billed as a mosque.

if you go to the ymca/ywca they down play the part where they are sponsered by the catholics.

Oh, ok. Well, the people protesting it are calling it a mosque. People building it and people who support it call it a multi-denomination community center that will have a mosque in it.

I posted an article a bit back that had a statements from Christian, Jewish and Muslim religious community leaders.

Nibs

[danielost]

Oh, ok. Well, the people protesting it are calling it a mosque. People building it and people who support it call it a multi-denomination community center that will have a mosque in it.

I posted an article a bit back that had a statements from Christian, Jewish and Muslim religious community leaders.

Nibs

that can be used by any religous group. again why call it a mosgue. of course if your in the middle of a christian meeting will they kick you out if it is time for prayers.

[Leah G.]

It's still a good question, they're not saying.... http://www.huffingto...m_n_645305.html

Rauf’s ASMA website lists mainstream philanthropic donors, including the Carnegie Corporation of New York, three Rockefeller charities, the Danny Kaye & Sylvia Fine Foundation, the Henry Luce Foundation, three feminist-oriented groups, and six other funders. New York Muslims, however, are well aware that the Rauf scheme is also associated with financing and support from other doubtful individuals and entities in addition to Perdana, which is led by the notorious Jew-baiter Mahathir bin Mohamad, former prime minister of Malaysia.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/mosque-grows-near-brooklyn

I didn't read the entire article, it's quite lengthy.

There are so many, I thought anymore would be reduntant.

H.

[+HerNibs]

that can be used by any religous group. again why call it a mosgue. of course if your in the middle of a christian meeting will they kick you out if it is time for prayers.

The area that is the mosque will be the mosque. From what I have read it will not be an open meeting room that can be used at any time by anyone. There will be areas that are set aside for that, just like in the YMCA and other Christian groups there are chapels that are NOT used by alternative religions but they do allow the use of other meeting rooms.

Again, it is a community center, built and sponsored by muslims, for the use of the community that will also contain a mosque.

Where does anyone say they will be kicked out of anywhere when it is time for prayer?

Nibs

[danielost]

The area that is the mosque will be the mosque. From what I have read it will not be an open meeting room that can be used at any time by anyone. There will be areas that are set aside for that, just like in the YMCA and other Christian groups there are chapels that are NOT used by alternative religions but they do allow the use of other meeting rooms.

Again, it is a community center, built and sponsored by muslims, for the use of the community that will also contain a mosque.

Where does anyone say they will be kicked out of anywhere when it is time for prayer?

Nibs

where does it say they wont be. it is also muslim tradition to build mosques where they have conquered or won a battle.

[+HerNibs]

It's still a good question, they're not saying.... http://www.huffingto...m_n_645305.html

Rauf’s ASMA website lists mainstream philanthropic donors, including the Carnegie Corporation of New York, three Rockefeller charities, the Danny Kaye & Sylvia Fine Foundation, the Henry Luce Foundation, three feminist-oriented groups, and six other funders. New York Muslims, however, are well aware that the Rauf scheme is also associated with financing and support from other doubtful individuals and entities in addition to Perdana, which is led by the notorious Jew-baiter Mahathir bin Mohamad, former prime minister of Malaysia.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/articles/mosque-grows-near-brooklyn

I didn't read the entire article, it's quite lengthy.

There are so many, I thought anymore would be reduntant.

H.

I found this interesting -

Danny Kaye & Sylvia Fine Foundation donated? Jewish husband and wife team? Actually, I find that wonderful.

There are some powerful religious and secular groups that are funding this project.

Nibs

[+HerNibs]

where does it say they wont be. it is also muslim tradition to build mosques where they have conquered or won a battle.

I'm sorry daniel but "where does it say they wont be" isn't reasonable.

If I'm holding a meeting in a Church and it's time for a sermon should the sermon have to wait or should the church have allowed me to use a different meeting room?

Are you saying that ALL mosques are built on conquered land? Source?

Nibs

[Leah G.]

I found it interesting too and hopeful but there are still to many questions and questionable donations for me to say I'd be in favor of them building it.

I heard somewhere in one of these threads that CAIR does build mosques on conquered lands as a standard, not sure if there was anything backing that up, just another question. I'm getting tired of all this reseach...

H.

[+HerNibs]

I found it interesting too and hopeful but there are still to many questions and questionable donations for me to say I'd be in favor of them building it.

I heard somewhere in one of these threads that CAIR does build mosques on conquered lands as a standard, not sure if there was anything backing that up, just another question. I'm getting tired of all this reseach...

H.

I shall try to find out. I don't think CAIR would be doing this and I know that not all mosques are built on conquered land. Cause I'm pretty sure these area's haven't been conquered.

Ok, this has some good information -

House of prayer in Islam. The English word, "mosque", comes from the Egyptian Arabic "masgid", while in common Arabic it is "masjid."

A mosque is symbolically very important to Muslims, being a humble way for humans to recreate pure divine presence on earth. But mosques are not built according to divine patterns (as is alleged by many other religions) — they are simply divinely guided. The main religious texts provide no clear rules as to what a mosque should look like.

Mandatory elements for a mosque include that it should point the direction to Mecca (this direction is called qibla). This indication in most mosques is a mihrab, a niche in the wall. The area in front of the mihrab must be roofed. In the wall of the mihrab there can be no doors. As for the other walls, there can be as many doors as the builders want.

There are 2 types of mosques: the main mosque is called jama'a, and is the one where the Friday prayer is recited. The jama'as are often richly adorned. In English, the term jama'a is rarely used, "Friday Mosque" or "Great Mosque" being the common term.

The other type of mosque is called masjid, and is the local and smaller mosque. While these can be richly adorned, they can seldom be compared to the jama'as.

Masjid is a word meaning 'place for prostration' and they were used by the early Muslims for houses of worship, even at times for other religions. Today the Arabic 'masjid', and the English 'mosque', are used exclusively for the religious houses of Islam. With the significant increase in jama¢as (main mosques) after the 9th century, the term 'masjid' came more and more to be used for small and insignificant mosques.

Mosques form centres in cities, or in neighbourhoods of cities. This function does not always have to be structured, but it can be connected to mentality, so that the establishment of a new mosque often facilitates the emergence of a city centre. This characteristic was typical in older days, but is becoming more and more unusual.

Here is the pertinent part from the link -

Mosques soon evolved more complex and uniform shapes. A minbar, the pulpit, from where the Friday prayer is held, was placed next to the mihrab. Within a few years after the death of Muhammad, mosques became such important symbols, that when Muslim conquerors established themselves somewhere, a mosque erected first, and then the military camp was built around it. This building process was inspired by the Madina example. But in the cases where the Muslims conquered principal cities, they constructed the mosque in the place that was the centre of the religion of the conquered people.

It would appear that just like any religious group or country, if the conquer someplace then they erect building that are a symbol of the conqueror.

It does NOT appear that all mosques symbolize a conquered place.

Nibs

[Leah G.]

Only after the Umayyads turned Islam into the master world-power, they started building imposing structures-initially in the form of sumptuous palaces, to which gorgeous mosques, minarets and mausoleums were added later on-all over the conquered lands (although clearly prohibited by Muhammad and the Quran) so as to declare the religious and political supremacy of Islam.

http://islamizationwatch.blogspot.com/2009/12/christianitys-minarets-originally-used.html

Probably not all of course but sometimes one bad bean can spoil the soup.

H.

[+HerNibs]

Only after the Umayyads turned Islam into the master world-power, they started building imposing structures-initially in the form of sumptuous palaces, to which gorgeous mosques, minarets and mausoleums were added later on-all over the conquered lands (although clearly prohibited by Muhammad and the Quran) so as to declare the religious and political supremacy of Islam.

http://islamizationwatch.blogspot.com/2009/12/christianitys-minarets-originally-used.html

Probably not all of course but sometimes one bad bean can spoil the soup.

H.

Ok, but I have to ask, what conquering nation/religion doesn't do this??

The crusaders, hindu, muslims, scientology, buddhists, etc.

But the place proposed for Park51 ISN'T conquered ground.

The group supporting the building of Park51 has spoke out AGAINST the people that brought down the towers so they certainly wouldn't consider it conquered.

The spot ISN'T on any WTC sites.

So that conquered bit kinda doesn't work.

Nibs

[ohio traveler]

where does it say they wont be. it is also muslim tradition to build mosques where they have conquered or won a battle.

That is very true. Plus it goes to show that the once very powerful Jewish lobby that used to have a very strong influence within our government, isn't very powerful anymore. Else they would never have allowed this.

[Leah G.]

Ok, but I have to ask, what conquering nation/religion doesn't do this??

The crusaders, hindu, muslims, scientology, buddhists, etc.

But the place proposed for Park51 ISN'T conquered ground.

The group supporting the building of Park51 has spoke out AGAINST the people that brought down the towers so they certainly wouldn't consider it conquered.

The spot ISN'T on any WTC sites.

So that conquered bit kinda doesn't work.

Nibs

I don't think it's been done in many many years. In the terrorists view it is conquered ground. People lie to futher their agendas. It's close enough. I think it does kind of work. It's the whole smoking gun thing. If there is a hint of evil motive, the mosque should not be built.

I think we did it again Nibs! We agree to disagree but we both have really good points. I see your side and I wish I could be so altuistic.

[+HerNibs]

I don't think it's been done in many many years. In the terrorists view it is conquered ground. People lie to futher their agendas. It's close enough. I think it does kind of work. It's the whole smoking gun thing. If there is a hint of evil motive, the mosque should not be built.

I think we did it again Nibs! We agree to disagree but we both have really good points. I see your side and I wish I could be so altuistic.

Best way to have a good debate is each side having a better understanding at the end. Don't have to agree.

Thanks! Maybe we will agree on the next topic.

Nibs

[ninjadude]

it is also muslim tradition to build mosques where they have conquered or won a battle.

Christians do it as well. What is your point?

[ninjadude]

They follow the same religion. I just pointed that out above.

Aquatus1, saying all muslims follow the same religion is roughly similar to say all Christians follow the same religion. But within Christianity you have wild splinter groups with wildly different ideologies. Just like Islam. There are Christian groups that "most" Christians would blanch at even being called Christian. Just like Islam. There are Christian groups that want the world to end, that follow dodge false prophets, that evangelise every chance they get, that believe all manner of craziness. Just like Islam. You are falling into the us vs them trap. The terrorists of 9/11 were a cult group not represenative of Islam as a whole.

[Doc Socks Junior]

It is a pretty large cult group though.

[ExpandMyMind]

Aquatus1, saying all muslims follow the same religion is roughly similar to say all Christians follow the same religion. But within Christianity you have wild splinter groups with wildly different ideologies. Just like Islam. There are Christian groups that "most" Christians would blanch at even being called Christian. Just like Islam. There are Christian groups that want the world to end, that follow dodge false prophets, that evangelise every chance they get, that believe all manner of craziness. Just like Islam. You are falling into the us vs them trap. The terrorists of 9/11 were a cult group not represenative of Islam as a whole.

exactly.

It is a pretty large cult group though.

how large, exactly? who measured it? can you provide a link?

i know the media outlets don't really like showing muslims condemning terrorist - it doesn't have the same effect in drumming up support for war as a crazy looking, hook-handed muslims calling for a holy war against the west. a picture that stays with the mind.

Edited July 30, 2010 by expandmymind

[ninjadude]

It is a pretty large cult group though.

really isn't too large.

Hirsh's Newsweek article said that the intelligence community “generally agrees that the number of true A-list Al Qaeda operatives” at the time of 9/11 probably between 500 and 1,000, most of them in and around Afghanistan.)

The Bush Administration “thinks everyone who wears a turban and stands up in a mosque and screams against the U.S. is a terrorist.

source

[Doc Socks Junior]

Okay, Al-Qaeda isn't that large of a group in and of itself, but it is inspiring a rather larger movement.