Ground Zero Mosque

[Agent X]

I agree with you, but they don't. Muslims feel they are above being criticized and are easily provoked into violence for being criticized.

The ruckus over South Park and the Danish cartoons for example.

[Karlis]

Oh I LOVE it.

Siara, what you posted has nothing to do with the OP.

" ... opening up a gay bar for Islamic men right next door to the highly controversial mosque being built near Ground Zero. ..."

No more off-topic posts. That applies to everyone.

Karlis

[Karlis]

Just a reminder to one and all, as far as the OP:

There are differing opinions regarding the question of having a mosque built not too far from 'Ground Zero'. Below are two opposing aspects regarding this issue. The article proposes that the mosque should be allowed to be built; the video proposes that such a mosque should be banned. What is your opinion? Feel free to discuss the pros and cons from both viewpoints.

Please keep discussions relative to the above,

Thanks.

Karlis

[questionmark]

Just a reminder to one and all, as far as the OP:

There are differing opinions regarding the question of having a mosque built not too far from 'Ground Zero'. Below are two opposing aspects regarding this issue. The article proposes that the mosque should be allowed to be built; the video proposes that such a mosque should be banned. What is your opinion? Feel free to discuss the pros and cons from both viewpoints.

Please keep discussions relative to the above,

Thanks.

Karlis

Without trying to be pathetic: People have died with the Star-spangled Banner in their hands to defend people's right to be free and worship as they see fit since the Revolution and through two world wars. Prohibiting anybody from doing that now, for whatever reason, makes the sacrifice of thousands a farce.

[Karlis]

Without trying to be pathetic: People have died with the Star-spangled Banner in their hands to defend people's right to be free and worship as they see fit since the Revolution and through two world wars. Prohibiting anybody from doing that now, for whatever reason, makes the sacrifice of thousands a farce.

questionmark, could you please explain your thoughts more clearly concerning "people's rights" and "prohibiting from doing so" as far as this thread is concerned?

Karlis

[questionmark]

questionmark, could you please explain your thoughts more clearly concerning "people's rights" and "prohibiting from doing so" as far as this thread is concerned?

Karlis

People's rights have been defined from the day America told Farmer George to hit the road with these words:

[snip]

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness

[snip]

Prohibiting somebody to construct a community center on his grounds in a zone adequate for such a purpose... guess I don't have to continue right? And it is quite irrelevant whether the community center has a prayer room or mosque.

I can understand the people don't like it, I can even understand if a majority cannot understand it, but that does not mean that we can deprive them of, as the founding fathers said, "unalienable Rights".

That is what America was about until the 70s, and it was the only way America was successful. Since the reactionaries try to convert it into a homogeneous mass it is going downhill...fast.

Edited August 16, 2010 by questionmark

[Karlis]

People's rights have been defined from the day America told Farmer George to hit the road with these words:

Prohibiting somebody to construct a community center on his grounds in a zone adequate for such a purpose... guess I don't have to continue right? And it is quite irrelevant whether the community center has a prayer room or mosque.

I can understand the people don't like it, I can even understand if a majority cannot understand it, but that does not mean that we can deprive them of, as the founding fathers said, "unalienable Rights".

That is what America was about until the 70s, and it was the only way America was successful. Since the reactionaries try to convert it into a homogeneous mass it is going downhill...fast.

Hmm ...this could lead to some interesting discussions. That said, I'm not sure if it's "on-topic", though. Thought anyone?

Regards,

Karlis

[hetrodoxly]

The reason i don't think the Mosque should be built is, it will become a place of pilgrimage, to qualify why i think it would become a place of pilgrimage is the vast majority of Muslims around the world look on the destruction of the twin tower as the work of Allah's hand smiting the enemies of islam, that is the reason why i believe the Mosque shouldn't be built at ground zero.

[aquatus1]

Prohibiting somebody to construct a community center on his grounds in a zone adequate for such a purpose... guess I don't have to continue right? And it is quite irrelevant whether the community center has a prayer room or mosque.

Actually, it's not irrelevant at all. In fact, that is precisely the part that is causing all the problems. No one had a problem with the existing community center. No one had a problem with people praying in the community center. No one even had a problem with the expansion of the community center. The problems began when they announced that a formal mosque was going to build in the community center.

I can understand the people don't like it, I can even understand if a majority cannot understand it, but that does not mean that we can deprive them of, as the founding fathers said, "unalienable Rights".

So what right are they being denied? Are they being forbidden to build mosques? Are they being forbidden to pray? No, all they are being denied is a building permit, something that happens on a regular basis for many reasons, among them being negative impact on the community.

Four blocks away from Ground Zero is a mosque. If someone applied to build a gay bar in that neighborhood, they would be entitled to go to the city board and request a denial of permit because it would have a negative impact on their community. The fact that there is an existing mosque there would assist them in that, not because it is any symbol of sharia law or Islamic insurgency, but simply because they were there first and they have the right to make a complaint against something they object to.

This isn't about rights, and it never has been. This is about manners.

[the1truebat]

As far as I can tell, the only reason anyone wants to build a mosque on or near ground zero is to generate controversy. There's no way that a mosque will be built there. As a result, those behind this farce are going to raise all sorts of noise just to get either publicity, a check, or maybe both.

[Mainpoint]

This isn't about rights, and it never has been. This is about manners.

Please elaborate this point.

Explain exactly what are proper manners applicable to this case?

This is a pure case of right to practice religion as one choose fit and to be treated equally.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Mainpoint

[questionmark]

So what right are they being denied? Are they being forbidden to build mosques? Are they being forbidden to pray? No, all they are being denied is a building permit, something that happens on a regular basis for many reasons, among them being negative impact on the community.

Then let me ask the question I have been asking the whole time: Did anybody object to the building of a church near the Murrah building?

Did anybody ever object to the construction of a church near a bombed abortion clinic?

Why not? Because Christians are a majority?

And what negative impact on the community?

Are we going to prohibit Synagogues where the NSM has a high turnout because it "disrupts" their community?

Are we going to prohibit Southern Baptists where the KKK has a majority because it could "disrupt" their community?

And no, they are not denied a building permit because in some parts of the country the driving spirit of old America is still is valid. Surprisingly there where most reactionaries only suspect Communists. The building permit has been approved and will be issued in the next weeks.

[venqax]

Then let me ask the question I have been asking the whole time: Did anybody object to the building of a church near the Murrah building?

Why do you keep insisting on this fiction that the OKC bombing had something to do with Christianity? McVeigh was many things, but he was not a Christian or even religious. He described himself as agnostic if anything. Some on the left just can't help trying to make moral equivalencies between fundie Christians and Islamo-terrorist. Is it some kind of misdirected self-loathing or something?

[questionmark]

Why do you keep insisting on this fiction that the OKC bombing had something to do with Christianity? McVeigh was many things, but he was not a Christian or even religious. He described himself as agnostic if anything. Some on the left just can't help trying to make moral equivalencies between fundie Christians and Islamo-terrorist. Is it some kind of misdirected self-loathing or something?

You mean it had nothing to do with Waco which in turn had nothing to do with religion?

Then let me point you to a letter he wrote to your favorite TV station.

But you are right, from the mainstream Christian view he might have been all kind of things except Christian. But then again, for the mainstream Muslims Atta was all kind of things except Muslim.

[questionmark]

fundie Christians and Islamo-terrorist. Is it some kind of misdirected self-loathing or something?

A fundie Christian who commits a crime is first and foremost a criminal. That also applies to a fundie Muslim who commits a crime.

Talking to a imaginary friend does not justify crimes, whether the crimje is a overt discrimination or a killing does nothing to the case.

Edited August 16, 2010 by questionmark

[Agent X]

In a recorded interview with Time magazine[80] McVeigh professed his belief in "a god", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs." Throughout his childhood, he and his father were Roman Catholic and regularly attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York. The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter to them claiming to be an agnostic and that he did not believe in a hell.[81][82] McVeigh once said that he believed the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside them. He had also said, "Science is my religion."[83]

According to the wiki

But there is no Church there, it's a memorial.

Memorial Wiki

[Pseudo Intellectual]

In other words, he wasn't affiliated with any religion.

[Mainpoint]

A fundie Christian who commits a crime is first and foremost a criminal. That also applies to a fundie Muslim who commits a crime.

Talking to a imaginary friend does not justify crimes, whether the crimje is a overt discrimination or a killing does nothing to the case.

Correct

that is true a criminal is a criminal no mater what religion that person belongs to.

had this logical thought processing more common place during the bush era we would have had all the criminals responsible for 9/11 behind bars and there would be no ongoing wars economy would have been better vs now where osama bin laden hasnt been even caught countless lives have been lost and there is still uncertainity on the outcome of war

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Terrorists aren't “criminals.” Clinton treated terrorism as a crime and look how that turned out.

[questionmark]

Terrorists aren't “criminals.” Clinton treated terrorism as a crime and look how that turned out.

You are a criminal as soon as you inflict unwarranted harm on another. What you call yourself while doing it is completely irrelevant.

[Mainpoint]

Why do you keep insisting on this fiction that the OKC bombing had something to do with Christianity? McVeigh was many things, but he was not a Christian or even religious. He described himself as agnostic if anything. Some on the left just can't help trying to make moral equivalencies between fundie Christians and Islamo-terrorist. Is it some kind of misdirected self-loathing or something?

Timothy McVeigh was a Roman catholic and attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York with his dad.

[Mainpoint]

Clinton treated terrorism as a crime and look how that turned out.

Reagan supported the original afghani Militants. Where do you think primitive villagers who when needing to relieve themselves dont have access to bathrooms instead go in the woods to do it learned how to use explosives automatic weapons and sabotague?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipszh14WPFY&feature=related

Edited August 17, 2010 by Mainpoint

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Reagan supported the original afghani Militants. Where do you think primitive villagers who when need to relieve themselves dont have access to bathrooms instead go in the woods to do it learned how to use explosives automatic weapons and sabotague?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipszh14WPFY&feature=related

Thank you for the irrelevant history lesson.

[Doc Socks Junior]

Timothy McVeigh was a Roman catholic and attended daily Mass at Good Shepherd Church in Pendleton, New York with his dad.

Maybe that was true in his early years, but by the time he blew up the Murrah Building, he was saying things like, "Science is my religion." Sorry, selectively mining information from Wikipedia really doesn't fly.

[Mainpoint]

Thank you for the irrelevant history lesson.

Here is another video pointing to the origins of the Taliban