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Ground Zero Mosque


Karlis
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Shold the mosque be approved? Or not approved?  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the building of a mosque be approved?



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I never gave any criticism........all I did was suggest they STILL build their center and mosque only smaller and donate ...ya know a charitable suggestion for the rest...and you call that me criticizing them??? goodness me lol

Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, then.

You've stated that instead of building the mosque to their standards, they should have instead used the money to to assist followers in another country, which in your opinion is a far better way to spend their money.

Really...so me suggestiing helping their fellow man is now a bad thing?? since when?? Don't christians believe in it too?? a lot of people do...isn't it a religious organization after all.. don't they believe in helping out?? yes? no?

No, helping out is a good thing, it's just that I always hear about how "Well the money could have been better spent if they did "X" on such and such a project.

It's usually a cheap attempt at criticism that I find to be hypocritical, along the same lines of "If I had that amount of money, I'd do "X".

Maybe I misunderstood you, it's just every time I hear arguments like these raised, it's done very cheaply, and to me is a non issue.

As for whether they encourage charity, dunno. None of my business.

From the way you are jumping to the wrong assumptions.. you'd nearly think I was suggesting no mosque at all.... which would be far from the truth...I still suggest yes build one only not so big

No, I just think you're just criticizing how they went about their plans to build something.

It's their money to spend, and they chose to make a public community center that also includes a Mosque for the Muslim population in the area, similar to some YMCA's.

The way you are presenting it seems to be focused on the idea that it is solely a mosque,and not also a community center, which are fairly expensive structures, and how much of the budget is being spent on the actual Mosque, I dunno, nor do I know how much it cost to get the zoning approved, building permits, hire the crew, ect.

If I'm reading you wrong, I'm sorry.

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Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you, then.

You've stated that instead of building the mosque to their standards, they should have instead used the money to to assist followers in another country, which in your opinion is a far better way to spend their money.

I said they should build their mosque and community center only not as big .. then give the rest to help the poor muslims...that is exactly what I said... no mincing of words...I prefer if you use my exact wording...cheers

No, helping out is a good thing, it's just that I always hear about how "Well the money could have been better spent if they did "X" on such and such a project.

It's usually a cheap attempt at criticism that I find to be hypocritical, along the same lines of "If I had that amount of money, I'd do "X".

Thats from people that like to moan about the entire project itself............ completely NOT what I was doing at all....I think you have went way ahead of yourself on this

No, I just think you're just criticizing how they went about their plans to build something.

There you go again..accusing me of criticizing... making me sound as though I have gone and moaned and said something negative... for that is what people do when they criticize... they mock and put things / people down <--- you cannot for the love of you point to a single word that I have said that remotely is like that

So again.....all I did was say - YES to the mosque and community center...but made a mere suggestion to make it smaller..( not spending the full 100 million..maybe using 50 or 60 million or so) and donate the rest of the millions to the poor muslims in Pakistan.........and you seem to call that criticizing...why? I do not know

The way you are presenting it seems to be focused on the idea that it is solely a mosque,and not also a community center, which are fairly expensive structures, and how much of the budget is being spent on the actual Mosque, I dunno, nor do I know how much it cost to get the zoning approved, building permits, hire the crew, ect.

Soley the mosque..??? I mentioned several times their community center too...and I was never objecting to it niether.....

Listen...about 4 miles from my home... my daughter belongs to the Seagoe Christian church... it used to be so small...and she also belongs to the Seagoe girls church birgade... but see they did not have a hall...instead they had to use their school hall..and they didn't have much of a car park either......................What did they do? they raised the funds...extended to their church...built a community center for the kids...and now have a great big car park... now my kid attends their now complex.............

......................Cost? - 1 . 5 million..................it looks big...and more people can now attend and now thankfully they no longer have to use the school hall for the kids, they have their own center....the rest of the funds they raised... they sent to other christian charities....

Now if so many people can do this with only 1 . 5 million....if the muslims in NY used 50 million or even 60 million I would dare say they would still have one heck of a building...and a mosque...

Now please lets have less of the assumptions...I see no wrong in me making any suggestions...all this accusing me of criticizing is going too far

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Now please lets have less of the assumptions...I see no wrong in me making any suggestions...all this accusing me of criticizing is going too far

Ok, in my view the way to put the wording sounds as criticizing, I apologize if you don't mean it that way.

Tome, saying they should have done x is critique of their actions, one way or another.

We'll just have to disagree on this, then. :)

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Ok, in my view the way to put the wording sounds as criticizing, I apologize if you don't mean it that way.

Tome, saying they should have done x is critique of their actions, one way or another.

We'll just have to disagree on this, then. :)

People hold rights to give their views regardless...

One prime example of real criticism is - IE - Former Priminister - Tony Blair... now donating all cash made from his new book ( his memiors) to the britsh leigon...( charity)...so many came on Sky News criticizing him...saying it was guilt money...blood money even... they came out with all sorts to put him down... that my friend is real criticism.....

My wording did not sound criticizing....I wouldnt dream of it...making a charity suggestion and still agreeing with the building plans is a fair straight forward statement ...I only agree with them building their mosque and center due to what Obama had said - its America and everyone holds that freedom of religion....

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Well, it would seem rather odd to many people, being that I am not white, Christian, anti-Muslim, or European. But then, that isn't really important, is it? After all, as I have said from the beginning, the reasons are largely irrelevant, the same way that the reason why my hypothetical man ran over the mother's child is irrelevant. That he was drunk, sleeping, careless, religious, or crazy doesn't really matter to the mother. All that matter is that he killed her child and she doesn't want him at the funeral. I had nothing to do with the genocide in Bosnia, nor do I meet any of the criteria that you outlined, however it would still be in extremely poor taste for me to show up at your...whatever the equivalent of a funeral would be. Indeed, you would even be justified at hiring police to keep me out, in that my presence would likely result in a disruption of what would otherwise be a peaceful and sacred (assuming that you could claim a personal or significant relationship to the genocide) event.

The law isn't a concrete line carved into stone. It makes allowance for people's feelings, and it protects more than the physical laws and property.

I was too being only hypotetical by referencing my points of descriptions. To make it easier for some, should I hold responsible every white christian on earth for what happened in Bosnia? Of course not. This is what I ment when you wrote that about same religion and same ideologie. Yes religion, but for sure not the same ideologie.

Or the Holocoust. Can we realy hold every german christian responible for that? No.

Edited by odas
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The difference being the Muslims that died would be considered Islamic martyrs the rest were victims right?

I guess you misinpretated my post on purpose because there is no chance in hell to do it by mistake. Therefore your pathetic question deserves no answer.

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I was too being only hypotetical by referencing my points of descriptions. To make it easier for some, should I hold responsible every white christian on earth for what happened in Bosnia? Of course not.

Okay. I doubt anyone here on the forum would directly disagree with that, though many imply it in their posts.

This is what I ment when you wrote that about same religion and same ideologie. Yes religion, but for sure not the same ideologie.

Or the Holocoust. Can we realy hold every german christian responible for that? No.

Well, the ideology has pretty much been admitted to. That's why I differentiated the two. There are those Muslims who hold the same religion, but not the same ideological view, but the people behind the mosque are not of this kind.

But my point was that it doesn't really matter how you, personally, differentiate it. This isn't a matter of politics or education. It's simply about manners. I gave the example of a grieving mother who refuses to allow the man who killed her child to attend the funeral. The reason why the man killed the son is largely irrelevant, as is whether or not the mother is wrong for not being educated enough (for instance, no knowing enough about the situation), or the man is politically wrong for wanting to pay his respects at the funeral regardless of the mother's wishes. Regardless, it would be the height of discourtesy for the man to show up at the funeral.

Now, the man still has the option to pay his respects once the funeral is over. No one is telling him he can't. All they are asking for is a little consideration. The same is going on with this mosque. No one is saying that they cannot expand their community center. No one is saying that they will be forbidden to pray in that community center. The only thing that is being objected to is the inclusion of a mosque. Again, all that people are asking for is a little consideration. There wasn't a mosque there before, please don't put a mosque there now.

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But my point was that it doesn't really matter how you, personally, differentiate it. This isn't a matter of politics or education. It's simply about manners. I gave the example of a grieving mother who refuses to allow the man who killed her child to attend the funeral. The reason why the man killed the son is largely irrelevant, as is whether or not the mother is wrong for not being educated enough (for instance, no knowing enough about the situation), or the man is politically wrong for wanting to pay his respects at the funeral regardless of the mother's wishes. Regardless, it would be the height of discourtesy for the man to show up at the funeral.

Now that is an excellent example...I see exactly what you mean....II personally would not want my kids killer near the funeral...and if he showed up, I would think he was disrespecting me and my kid...

So many Americans looked at it that way too.. ( well sort of)...so yea it is 100 % completely understandable....

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Now that is an excellent example...I see exactly what you mean....II personally would not want my kids killer near the funeral...and if he showed up, I would think he was disrespecting me and my kid...

So many Americans looked at it that way too.. ( well sort of)...so yea it is 100 % completely understandable....

thats a good point and thats why we should have the mosque built because the builders are against the killers and we should fully support them. Hurling false accusations at innocent people should not happen.

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thats a good point and thats why we should have the mosque built because the builders are against the killers and we should fully support them. Hurling false accusations at innocent people should not happen.

Why bring politics into this? The grieving mother doesn't care about world peace, or promoting unity. Why tell her that she should let the man attend the funeral because it would support all those drivers who accidentally killed children? That's not her cause; she is just grieving for her lost child. Again, this isn't about politics or education. This is about manners.

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thats a good point and thats why we should have the mosque built because the builders are against the killers and we should fully support them. Hurling false accusations at innocent people should not happen.

Hmmm okay me thinks you have totally taken the wrong end of the stick here... lol...I was seeing the logic in aquatus1's point made...

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thats a good point and thats why we should have the mosque built because the builders are against the killers and we should fully support them. Hurling false accusations at innocent people should not happen.

What makes you think a man who supports Sharia and refuses to call Hamas a terrorist organization is against the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks?

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Why bring politics into this? The grieving mother doesn't care about world peace, or promoting unity. Why tell her that she should let the man attend the funeral because it would support all those drivers who accidentally killed children? That's not her cause; she is just grieving for her lost child. Again, this isn't about politics or education. This is about manners.

Yup.. its about respect...nothing more

I don't think too many care to view it that way.. unfortunately...shame though

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What makes you think a man who supports Sharia and refuses to call Hamas a terrorist organization is against the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks?

What makes you think he is for it?

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Yup.. its about respect...nothing more

I don't think too many care to view it that way.. unfortunately...shame though

respect for your fellow man respect for human rights respect for freedom of religion and respect for the american constitution

I see by supporting the mosque one respects all the above

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respect for your fellow man respect for human rights respect for freedom of religion and respect for the american constitution

I see by supporting the mosque one respects all the above

You still grasp the wrong end of the stick. my oh my

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What makes you think he is for it?

I didn't say he was. I said odds are he's not against the attacks.

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I didn't say he was. I said odds are he's not against the attacks.

Why do you say that?

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You still grasp the wrong end of the stick. my oh my

explain what do you mean?

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What makes you think a man who supports Sharia and refuses to call Hamas a terrorist organization is against the perpetrators of the 9/11 attacks?

www.islamfortoday.com/60minutes.htm

Yusuf: absolutely, absolutely. All Muslims are guided by the words of Islam's holy book, the Koran, which is believed to be the word of God, and explains how Muslims should lead their lives. It also says fighting should only be in self-defense, a fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. And the Koran forbids suicide. They cannot bring any textual evidence from the Koran, from the traditions of the prophet, to prove anything that justifies what they've done.

Bradley: So then it's outright aggression?

Yusuf: It's outright aggression.

Bradley: It has nothing to do with Islam?

Yusuf: That's my belief.

but of course, that's just what he'd say anyway...

Edited by ShadowSot
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explain what do you mean?

Scroll back and read aquatus1’s post again.. he is not talking about religion or even politics... he is talking about manners and respect....you keep going on about the mosque the mosque... the mosque LOL you have not caught on to what he meant...

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Why do you say that?

Because he, among other things, refuses to call Hamas a terrorist group and supports Sharia. Islamists like him usually don't oppose terrorist attacks.

Sharia itself brings nothing but terror. The man may not be a terrorist-supporter, but he is a terrorizer.

www.islamfortoday.com/60minutes.htm

but of course, that's just what he'd say anyway...

Indeed. Unfortunately for him, some of us infidels know all about taqiyya.

Not to mention in that same interview he blamed America for the 9/11 attacks.

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Scroll back and read aquatus1's post again.. he is not talking about religion or even politics... he is talking about manners and respect....you keep going on about the mosque the mosque... the mosque LOL you have not caught on to what he meant...

I understood clearly what he meant.

what part of my posts did you not understand or feel i am confused about? if there are specific points you can clarify.

The planners of the building want to build it a as symbol of peace tolerance and freedom of religion in US. "Peace" means being against any type of killers attending any funerals. Peace means saying no to violence.

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I understood clearly what he meant.

what part of my posts did you not understand or feel i am confused about? if there are specific points you can clarify.

The planners of the building want to build it a as symbol of peace tolerance and freedom of religion in US. "Peace" means being against any type of killers attending any funerals. Peace means saying no to violence.

Then why does he support Sharia, which is clearly violent [against innocent people]? :blink:

I realize after asking this question dozens of times you're not going to answer it, but ah well.

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